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eahaddix
06-19-2006, 12:47 AM
Is Transubstantiation a Biblical doctrine? Roman Catholic apologists appeal to two Scriptural passages for Scriptural prooftexting.

Therefore, let us re-examine these key passages.


I. Was "the Last Supper" Transubstantiate?

Matthew 26 [NIV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2026:26-29;&version=31;)]
26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body."
27 Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom."

*Note: See also Mark 14:22-25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2014:22-25;&version=31;) and Luke 22:17-20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2022:17-20;&version=31;).

In interpreting these "Last Supper" passages, Roman Catholic apologists claim that the words "this is," or touto (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5124) estin (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2076), communicate a conversion of the bread and wine, otherwise Christ Jesus would have said "this symbolizes."

However, this is non-sequitur reasoning. The Greek expressions of the phrase "this is," such as . . .
(a) touto (http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/STRGRK51.htm#S5124) + esti (http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/STRGRK20.htm#S2076),
(b) houtos (http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/STRGRK37.htm#S3778) + esti (http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/STRGRK20.htm#S2076), or
(c) ho (http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/STRGRK35.htm#S3588) + esti (http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/STRGRK20.htm#S2076),
. . . can communicate symbolic designations (ref. Matthew 13:37-39 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2013:37-39;&version=31;) [Greek text] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=Matthew+13%3A37-39&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na&Enter=Perform+Search)) or literal truths (ref. Matthew 3:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%203:17;&version=31;) [Greek text] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=matthew+3%3A17&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na), Matthew 14:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=14&verse=2&version=49&context=verse) [Greek text] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=matthew+14%3A2&section=0&it=kjv&oq=matthew%252011%3A10&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=mt&ng=11&ncc=11)). If Christ Jesus intended this statement to be unequivocally literal, then he would have said touto (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5124) gignetai (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1096)[* (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=gi%2Fgnetai&bytepos=32627568&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057)], or "this has become," not simply touto (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5124) estin (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2076), or "this is" (cross ref. John 2:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%202:9;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=John+2%3A9&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na)).

A true literal interpretation of the words in question would be paradoxical. Bread is not human flesh, nor is wine human blood, otherwise the basic usage of these words is invalid. Instead, Christ Jesus recognized the presence of the bread and wine, even when making the said statements, as shown by Matthew 26:29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2026:29;&version=31;). As a result, the reader does not see Christ Jesus offering severed body parts or bleedings for consumption, under any context.

Now, in Luke 22:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2022:19;&version=31;), Christ Jesus classifies "the Last Supper" as an act of "rememberance," or anamnesis (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=364). Based on this, Roman Catholic apologists assert the following:

1Q. In Greek philosophy, anamnesis refers to how abstract ideas move into the physical world. For instance, Plato defined anamnesis as physical reminders of metaphysical forms behind worldly shadows, based on knowlege gained from a previous disembodied existence called metempsychosis (ref. reading (http://maven.english.hawaii.edu/criticalink/plato/guide8.html)). Since Hellenistic culture dominated many local churches, the Apostles could have used this philosophical term to describe Transubstantiate transformations.
1A. While the implicit reference to this basic philosophical concept could be intended, Scripture does not explicitly apply this idea to Transubstantiation. To the contrary, this philosophical idea could describe an edifying or faith-intensive experience, as opposed to Transubstantiation.

2Q. The term anamnesis has "sacrifical overtones," as demonstrated by this term's usage in Hebrews 10:3 (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=Hebrews+10%3A3&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na). The same observation applies to the Hebrew counterpart of anamnesis, zakar (http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/STRHEB21.htm#S2142), as shown by Leviticus 24:7 (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=Leviticus+24%3A7&section=0&it=kjv&oq=Hebrews%252010%3A3&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=heb&ng=10&ncc=10) and Numbers 10:10 (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=numbers+10%3A10&section=0&it=kjv&oq=Leviticus%252024%3A7&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=le&ng=24&ncc=24).
2A. While a sacrifice can serve as a memorial, all memorials are not sacrifices. For instance, stones served as memorials for Israelities killed by a river (Joshua 4:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joshua%204:7;&version=31;)), crowns served as memorials for Jewish exiles from Babylon (Zechariah 6:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zechariah%206:14;&version=31;)), and a scroll served as a memorial to a Hebrew victory over the Amalekites (Exodus 17:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2017:14;&version=31;)). Consequently, nowhere does Scripture indicate that the Last Supper had sacrifical connotations, except through extra-Scriptural generalizations superimposed onto Scripture.

Moreover, Christ Jesus had not died on the cross yet, so these items could not have been offered under a sacrifical context.


II. Was the Transubstantiate Eucharist Christ Jesus's "difficult teaching"?

In interpreting John 6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=6&version=31), Roman Catholic apologists emphasize the literal reading of John 6:54-56 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%206:54-56;&version=31;). Specifically, these apologists see John 6:55 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%206:55;&version=31;) as representing the physical Eucharistic elements, while viewing John 6:54, 56 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%206:54,%2056;&version=31;) as representing the consumption of the physical Eucharistic elements.

However, this is non-sequitur reasoning, for while John 6:55 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%206:55;&version=31;) mentions real sustenance, John 6:55 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%206:55;&version=31;) does not mention physical sustenance. To the contrary, in John 6:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%206:27;&version=31;), Jesus instructs the crowd to seek food that does not spoil, as opposed to food that spoils. Likewise, in John 4:13-14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%204:13-14;&version=31;), Christ Jesus instructs the Samaritan woman to seek water that permanently quenches thirst. This is significant, for all physical food spoils after providing temporary nourishment only, thereby indicating that the subject is literal spiritual food, not literal physical food. Christ Jesus verifies this interpretation in John 6:30-33, 49-50, 58 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%206:30-33,%2049-50,%2058;&version=31;), where he contrasts desert manna with bread from heaven.

With this in mind, notice that Christ Jesus parallels belief in him (John 6:29, 35, 40, 47 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%206:29,%2035,%2040,%2047;&version=31;)) with eating him as the "bread of life" (John 6:50, 51, 58 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%206:51;&version=31;)) throughout John 6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=6&version=31). Each item results in obtaining eternal life, in and of itself, thereby indicating that these things are same thing. Otherwise, Christ Jesus would be contradicting himself by advocating different means of obtaining salvation.

This parallel reaches its full logical extension in John 6:53-56 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%206:53-56;&version=31;). Specifically, Christ Jesus parallels belief in him with eating his body and blood. This dual form of food describes a two-fold form of spiritual nourishment:
(a) The body is what bears the sins (ref. Leviticus 16:21-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2016:21-22;&version=31;)), which is why Christ Jesus bore our sins in his body (1 Peter 2:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%202:24;&version=31;)). Hence, Christ Jesus's body eliminates our spiritual burden of bearing sin (Romans 6:5-7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%206:5-7%20;&version=31;)).
(b) Blood, or lifeblood, is forfeited for the payment of sins (Leviticus 17:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2017:11;&version=31;), Hebrews 9:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%209:22;&version=31;)), which is why Christ Jesus spilled his lifeblood for our sins (Matthew 26:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2026:28;&version=31;), 1 Peter 1:18-19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%201:18-19;&version=31;), 1 John 1:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%201:7;&version=31;), etc.). Hence, Christ Jesus's blood eliminates our spiritual burden of sinful guilt (Hebrews 9:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%209:14;&version=31;), Hebrews 10:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%2010:22;&version=31;)).

At this point, remember that Christ Jesus observed Mosaic Law, which prohibited the drinking of blood (Leviticus 17:10-12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2017:10-12;&version=31;)). The Apostles followed this observance by teaching believers to abstain from drinking blood (Acts 15:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2015:20;&version=31;), Acts 15:29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2015:29;&version=31;), Acts 21:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2021:25;&version=31;)).

Further, God the Father prevents Christ Jesus from experiencing decay (Acts 2:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%202:27;&version=31;)). However, in consuming transubstantiate communion wafers and wine, one's body digests or "breaks down" the said materials.

This New Testament imagery of consuming Christ Jesus to internalize his saving power (ref. John 6:50-51, 53-54, 57-58 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%206:50-51,%2053-54,%2057-58;&version=31;)) parallels the Old Testament imagery of consuming God's words to internalize their meaning (ref. Jeremiah 15:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah%2015:16;&version=31;), Isaiah 55:1-3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2055:1-3;&version=31;), Ezekiel 2:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%202:8;&version=31;), Ezekiel 3:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%203:1;&version=31;)). Plus, this cross-Testament parallel includes the imagery of Matthew 5:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:6;&version=31;), where one's desire to intake nutrition illustrates one's desire for righteousness.

CoreIssue
06-19-2006, 10:57 AM
Yep. Agree.

Blood oaths, wine oaths equating to blood oaths and so on were long standing history.

The Apostles understood the Mosaic and symbolic meanings of the literal truth being said by Christ.

Brandli5
06-20-2006, 11:09 AM
The doctrine of transubstantiation is taught by Catholics as being found in such Scripture passages as John 6:55, which says "For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink", and Matthew 26:26, which says "Take and eat; this is my body." However, these are clearly metaphoric. Christ says that His flesh is real food and blood is real drink, not, "My food is real flesh and my drink is real blood". Furthermore, when Jesus says, "This is my body", it means "This represents my body." The most serious reason transubstantiation should be rejected is because it is viewed by the Roman Catholic Church as a "re-sacrifice" of Jesus Christ for our sins. Jesus died "once for all" and does not need to be sacrificed again (Hebrews 10:10; 1 Peter 3:18).

Sid
11-09-2006, 02:55 PM
Is Transubstantiation a Biblical doctrine?



In the looking glass world of Catholic Circular Theology, the Eucharist is really the Second Coming:


The Bible teaches that Jesus Christ will return to this earth sometime in the future. However, the Roman Catholics, according to Scott Hahn, have a different perspective. He says the “second coming” actually means “Christ’s presence” in the Eucharist. What does that mean?


The coming of Jesus Christ -- what the Greek New Testament calls his "parousia" -- is not simply some far-off event. It is his presence in the Eucharist. Fundamentalists reduce the meaning of "parousia" to Christ's coming at the end of time; but for first-century Greek-speakers the word meant "presence." Catholic theology holds on to that original meaning.

--Scott Hahn



The parousia is the highest intensification and fulfillment of the liturgy. And the liturgy is parousia. … Every Eucharist is parousia, the Lord's coming…

--Cardinal Ratzinger, aka B-16, Eschatology



Second Coming: Roman Catholic Style (http://www.understandthetimes.org/current_transcripts/text/aug2005/1759.shtml)



Seems that Catholic endtimes teachings hold a confused stew of amillennialism, replacement theology and preterism.


. . . it is tragic that probably not 1 pew Catholic in a 1,000 even understands that last sentence.

CoreIssue
11-09-2006, 08:13 PM
In the looking glass world of Catholic Circular Theology, the Eucharist is really the Second Coming:
Now this is a new one on me. :scratch: How have I missed it all these years?

Expand on it, please.

Sid
11-10-2006, 11:02 AM
Now this is a new one on me. :scratch: How have I missed it all these years?

Expand on it, please.


CI:


I believe that this Catholic teaching is confusion layered with wishful thinking, with a side order of deception: to understand what is going on here, all of these issues must be factored in:
The Catholic teaching of the real presence: as much about the authority of the priesthood as any claims to be Scriptural or apostolic.
The Catholic endtime teaching that is at once, a confused recipe of amillennialism, replacement theology and preterism.
The confusion that the RCC has been marinating in since VII.
The decline of the RCC since VII, and the need to crank up the incense and mysticism to keep butts in the pews.
The understated, but just below the surface, teachings of RCC being the One True Church
. . . and the corollaries of OTCism: the RCC is the exclusive community of the saved and the us -against -them attitude that the religiously-addicted pew Catholics marinate in.
The decline of the Catholic Theological enterprise after JPII squashed numerous theologians [notably Hans Kung and Gustavo Gutierrez] instead of engaging in dialogue. As it stands, Catholic theologians only churn out stuff that the Vatican will like.
The subsequent rise of lay Catholic Apologist Industry [notably James Akin, Dave Armstrong, Scott Hahn, Karl Keating, Peter Kreft and Pat Madrid] where bubble gum [books, tapes and personal appearances] is provided for the religious-addicted Catholics, while the Vatican can deny any claims made to official RCism.Mix these ingredients and you arrive at the confused state of Catholic catechesis


I found this Scott Hahn quote:


[I] The Eucharist and the Parousia were often treated as equivalent terms. The Eucharist is the awaited Parousia, the coming of Christ, exactly as St. John saw it “in the Spirit on the Lord’s day. (Rev 1:10)


So far this book by Scott Hahn has 119 reviews (http://www.amazon.com/Lambs-Supper-Mass-Heaven-Earth/dp/0385496591/sr=1-2/qid=1163170476/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/103-0688078-6827817?ie=UTF8&s=books), check out the depth of confusion that is the RCC.

CoreIssue
11-10-2006, 11:13 AM
That isn't confused, it is insane.