another question...

[Jessie]

with all the perverts out there, many come ask the victim for forgiveness and
think its all ok that there should'nt be any conseqences.

I was watching a show the other night about a woman who was raped at 17
then 20 yrs later the guy writes her a letter asking forgiveness.

at one point she finally calls the police and where they are
this can be prosecuted after all these yrs.

is what she did alright? or should she have not turned him in since he did ask
forgiveness?

I admired her ability to not accept responsiblity for him whatsoever when
they asked her questions. she was'nt allowing herself to be victimized further,
by the college, ect.

[CoreIssue]

with all the perverts out there, many come ask the victim for forgiveness and
think its all ok that there should'nt be any conseqences.

I was watching a show the other night about a woman who was raped at 17
then 20 yrs later the guy writes her a letter asking forgiveness.

at one point she finally calls the police and where they are
this can be prosecuted after all these yrs.

is what she did alright? or should she have not turned him in since he did ask
forgiveness?

I admired her ability to not accept responsiblity for him whatsoever when
they asked her questions. she was'nt allowing herself to be victimized further,
by the college, ect.
Asking for and getting forgiveness is one thing. Paying and being responsible is another.

Both can occur at the same time.

It was her call on this one. There is no requirement she forgive him.

[Jessie]

still not clear to me.

as a christian would she have been required to forgive him and just drop it?
or can she forgive and still press charges?

[Brandli5]

As a christian person God does require us to forgive people who do things to us.
That does not mean that the person who does things should not be punished. The bible says we are to obey the law of our land. As of now the law of USA conforms to what I think is what God wants anyhow. I do think that person should be punished. And I also think that contacting her was scarey. He should have had someone else someone in authority say a "pastor, preacher ect" to contact her if he wanted to ask forgiveness.

I do think he should if he really wanted forgivess turn himself in. After all it is a crime. If he was truely sorry and he did commit it, then he should have turned him self in. ITs the right thing to do. You do the crime you do the time. The law of the land.

After all the bible says to be truthful, and not to commit crimes.

She can still forgive him at the same time letting him do his time for what he did.

[CoreIssue]

still not clear to me.

as a christian would she have been required to forgive him and just drop it?
or can she forgive and still press charges?
It depends on what she felt about the apology.

Many of these types work in a cycle of commit - regret, commit - regret.

If she felt there was genuine change, then she needs to forgive. But justice is another issue than forgiving.

If she felt it was not true change, they she has no obligation to forgive. Forgiveness and repentence go hand in hand.

God only saves the repentent. He does not forgive those who do not repent.

[Brandli5]

It depends on what she felt about the apology.

Many of these types work in a cycle of commit - regret, commit - regret.

If she felt there was genuine change, then she needs to forgive. But justice is another issue than forgiving.

If she felt it was not true change, they she has no obligation to forgive. Forgiveness and repentence go hand in hand.

God only saves the repentent. He does not forgive those who do not repent.


God tells us to forgive others. No matter how we feel about them. We do not have to talk to the person, or be best friends, but we must forgive others. No matter what they have done. Just as Jesus has done. ANd with his word, and his help we can.


In Mt. 6:14,15 the Lord emphatically stated eternal truth with the following words:

"For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." A Christian who does not forgive can reap bitterness and the loss of eternal rewards (Hebrews 12:14-15; 2 John 1:8).
And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. (Eph 4:32)

Also the bible says We should forgive 7 Times 70.

WE do not have to like the person, but we must love one another. Forgive them.

The bible seems clear on that.

We canot do it on our own most of the time, THat is where Jesus comes in. Prayer for a heart that can forgive, No matter what happened to us.

[Jessie]

I agree on the cycles, and so many will mouth the words and are NOT repentent at all.

from Childhood I was told to forgive forgive forgive, I think it sunk me.
because they did'nt change and I had to act like all was well when it was'nt.
and deep inside I KNEW it.

they had not changed, frankly to this day I dont believe he has changed.
and it sickens me.

last I heard he lost his job as a school bus driver, was consiling in a baptist church,
and the family is stilling backing him.

really made me ill when at my grandpas funeral, the pastor said if anyone wanted to know Jesus then to get ahold of him, my mom or my sister.
me my husband and sons just about fell down, although it was to be expected.
surely the other family memebers know something is'nt right with them.
and thats not on the level, and would hinder peoples relationships with the Lord.

and they cant see or care if they are stumbling blocks to others :mad:

[Jessie]

It depends on what she felt about the apology.

Many of these types work in a cycle of commit - regret, commit - regret.

If she felt there was genuine change, then she needs to forgive. But justice is another issue than forgiving.

If she felt it was not true change, they she has no obligation to forgive. Forgiveness and repentence go hand in hand.

God only saves the repentent. He does not forgive those who do not repent.


this is what I was wondering.

[CoreIssue]

God tells us to forgive others. No matter how we feel about them. We do not have to talk to the person, or be best friends, but we must forgive others. No matter what they have done. Just as Jesus has done. ANd with his word, and his help we can.
Sorry, but that is simply not true. Never said as a blanket command. Ever.

In Mt. 6:14,15 the Lord emphatically stated eternal truth with the following words:

"For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."
But under what conditions is one to forgive sins as the Father forgives your sins?

You are adding to the verse the condtional ALL sins. Which is false.

The Father does not forgive ALL sins. Only the sins of the repentent. You have to find the condtional for forgiving sins in other passages of the Bible to clarify the full issue here.

One can most assuredly be unforgiving in a just cause against another without having bitterness and the rest. It is a simple recognition not all issues can be resolved.

The Bible also lays out, quite clearly, how to deal with even Christians who do you wrong. You try to talk to them. Then you try to talk to them with others present. Then you try to bring resolution by bringing in a 3rd party peacemaker. Then if it fails, walk away and have nothing to do with them again until THEY change and repent.

Not one word about forgiving their sin. For, if you forgave it, you would not be going through this judicial procedure and then walking away from them.

Not holding bitterness and forgiving are not the same thing.

A Christian who does not forgive can reap bitterness and the loss of eternal rewards (Hebrews 12:14-15; 2 John 1:8).

Hebrew 12:14-15
14(A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=heb%2012:14-15;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30227A))Pursue peace with all men, and the (B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=heb%2012:14-15;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30227B))sanctification without which no one will (C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=heb%2012:14-15;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30227C))see the Lord.
15See to it that no one (D (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=heb%2012:14-15;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30228D))comes short of the grace of God; that no (E (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=heb%2012:14-15;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30228E))root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be (F (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=heb%2012:14-15;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30228F))defiled;

It says to pursue. It does not say you will achieve.

2 John 1:8
8(A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20john%201:8;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30654A))Watch yourselves, (B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20john%201:8;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30654B))that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.
It says do not let the actions of others bring bitterness into your life.

Yep. Those who do not abide by sound teachings can loose rewards and have bitterness.

But my position is sound on this is sound.
One may not forgive a just cause against another without having bitterness and the rest. It is a simple recognition not all issues can be resolved.

And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. (Eph 4:32)
Why does God forgive Christians? Because they repented at conversion. When they became Christians. Every sin they had done and will do is forgiven then. Not as they occur.

That puts one back under Law.

What about non Christians? Are their sins forgiven? No. God hold every last one against them for eternity.

But is he bitter about it? No.

The difference is in acting out out justice or acting out of malice.
Also the bible says We should forgive 7 Times 70.
Yes, the relapsing and then repenting brother in Christ is to be forgiven again and again.

This has nothing to do with non-Christians though. The conditional is being our brother in Christ.
WE do not have to like the person, but we must love one another. Forgive them.
No. Love your enemy. But they remain your enemy.

God loves every last being he will put in the Lake. But he will not forgive them and he will condemn them.
The bible seems clear on that.
Actually, it does not say what you are saying at all. It never teaches universal forgiveness any where. Ever.

Christ is our model. And he most assuredly does not forgive everyone.

He gives the opportunity for everyone to repent. He gives good reason to repent. But he never forgives anyone who does not repent.

We canot do it on our own most of the time, THat is where Jesus comes in. Prayer for a heart that can forgive, No matter what happened to us.

That is not Biblical.

Yes. We need help to forgive, often, when forgiveness is demanded. Very true.

Christ stands at the door knocking. But each person must let him in. Then he forgives. Not until.

[eahaddix]

You have to find the condtional for forgiving sins in other passages of the Bible to clarify the full issue here.

:writing: Here is some prooftexting:

Luke 17 [NIV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2017:3-4;&version=31;)]
3 [...] "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. 4 If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him."

Now, what is the goal of forgiveness for a brother's sins? The goal of forgiveness is ethical restoration (Galatians 6:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%206:1;&version=31;)), where sin is corrected (ref. Matthew 18:15-17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2018:15-17;&version=31;), 2 Corinthians 2:5-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%202:5-8;&version=31;) [plus 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%205:1-5;&version=31;)], etc.). As a result, we should differentiate between worldly unforgiveness and Godly unforgiveness.

Instantaneous forgiveness is dangerous, for it creates passive doormats for persistent evildoers (ref. Matthew 7:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%207:6;&version=31;)).

[Jessie]

from Lucky:
Otherwise, we become passive doormats for persistent bullies (ref. Matthew 7:6).

good way to say it, that was/is me, although I'm learning!

what is the difference between Godly forgiveness v. world forgiveness?

[eahaddix]

from Lucky:
Otherwise, we become passive doormats for persistent bullies (ref. Matthew 7:6).

good way to say it, that was/is me, although I'm learning!

what is the difference between Godly forgiveness v. world forgiveness?

The reason why each type of forgiveness is given. The former searches for Godly changes, while the latter searches for personal gratification.

For instance, worldly unforgiveness could come from selfish bitterness or envy (Ephesians 4:31-32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%204:31-32;&version=31;)), while Godly unforgiveness could come from "tough love," or loving disciplinary measures (Hebrews 12:4-10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%2012:4-10;&version=31;), Revelation 3:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%203:19;&version=31;), etc.). As a result, worldly forgiveness could require sufficient personal revenge, while Godly forgiveness could require the ceasing of self-harming sinful habits.

[CoreIssue]

Good points.

Worldly forgiveness serves self. Godly forgiveness serves others.

[Jessie]

this is good points brought out.

would'nt you say much is for personal gratification?
and esp. those who encourage this kindof forgiveness?

[CoreIssue]

this is good points brought out.

would'nt you say much is for personal gratification?
and esp. those who encourage this kindof forgiveness?
I think it is often more for self image and reputation. How they appear to the world.

Some mean it. But I don't think it ever really works for them.

[Brandli5]

Either way, Worldy OR GODly.

THere is truth to the bible. We must forgive in one of those ways.

We are not to harbor unforgivness, or anger with someone.

There is a diffence in worldy and GOdly,

THe bible says to forgive and that is what I read.

I agree that just because we forgive does not mean we are to be opening the doors to our home to someone, but I can tell you this, Forgivness is Jesus's way.


Jesus said, "And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him that your Father in heaven may also forgive your trespasses." That's Mark 11:25.

11:26 But if ye do not forgive (http://www.godrules.net/library/topics/topic758.htm), neither will your Father (http://www.godrules.net/library/topics/topic702.htm) which is in heaven (http://www.godrules.net/library/topics/topic913.htm) forgive (http://www.godrules.net/library/topics/topic758.htm) your trespasses.

[CoreIssue]

Either way, Worldy OR GODly.

THere is truth to the bible. We must forgive in one of those ways.

No, Brandi. The Bible is quite clear we DO NOT forgive unless there is repentence.

The universal command in the Bible is to love all. But, as said before, God will love those in the Lake of Fire for eternity. But they will never be forgiven because they never repented.

There is absolutely no command in the Bible to forgive all.

As shown, by Lucky, by verse, the command is to forgive as God forgives. And God demands repentence to forgive.

Yes. He keeps on loving the unrepentent. He loved those before the Flood. He loved those at Sodom and Gomorrah, he will love all in the Trib. But it did not and will not stop him from killing them.

There is absolutely no blanket command to forgive in the Bible. It most assuredly is qualified forgiveness.
We are not to harbor unforgivness, or anger with someone.
That is wrong.

Again, it is never said to forgive everyone. And there is most assuredly righteous anger in the Bible.

There is a diffence in worldy and GOdly,

THe bible says to forgive and that is what I read.

You are disregarding clear verses that state when and how to forgive. And disregarding those that show when not forgive.

Again, quoting from Lucky.

Luke 17 [NIV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2017:3-4;&version=31;)]
3 [...] "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. 4 If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him."
I agree that just because we forgive does not mean we are to be opening the doors to our home to someone, but I can tell you this, Forgivness is Jesus's way.

How much clearer does it need said? Forgive IF he repents. Not forgive regardless of him repenting or not.

Christ will send the majority of people to the Lake for eternity. They are most assuredly unforgiven.

Christ condemned Judas as going to be punished above all others. He did not forgive him.

Christ's way is to give a way for people to be forgiven. It is called repentence by grace through faith. Those who do not do so will be unforgiven for every sin they commit.

You have bitten into a PC doctrine that is non existent in the Bible.
Jesus said, "And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him that your Father in heaven may also forgive your trespasses." That's Mark 11:25.
So, we throw Luke out the window because you don't like the verse?

You are doing shopping cart theology. Quoting and holding to the verses you like and disregarding those you do not.

Harmonutics is the theological discipline of understanding the Bible is to be read in harmony with itself.

You reading a blanket, unqualified Mark 11:25, puts that verse in absolute contradiction with the Luke verse.

You cannot hamonize Luke to Mark in your thinking. I can hamonize Mark to Luke with no contradiction.

Further, going your direction we are not dead to the Law. But Paul says we are.

And that goes into Conditional Salvation, which the Bible does not teach. We are either dead to the Law or we are not. Cannot have it both ways.

It does not say forgive every one. It says if you are unwilling to forgive, when others repent, God will not forgive you when you repent.


11:26 But if ye do not forgive (http://www.godrules.net/library/topics/topic758.htm), neither will your Father (http://www.godrules.net/library/topics/topic702.htm) which is in heaven (http://www.godrules.net/library/topics/topic913.htm) forgive (http://www.godrules.net/library/topics/topic758.htm) your trespasses.

Now, tell me how you harmonize you interpretation of the verse with Luke. You cannot just throw the verse away.

[Brandli5]

I see what your saying. I mean I suppose it mostly has been told to me all my life, to forgive one another.

I get what your saying though. When we ask Jesus's forgivness for our sins, we are forgiven.

That means we are forgiven, and even when we did not forgive someone , we are still forgiven, Therefore its not required. (I hope I am understanding)

If someone repents, we are to forgive them. BUT if they do not repent, we do not have to forgive.

Now a question " would it be okay if we do forgive if they do not ask repentness?"


I understand all you have said before, and I thank you for showing me what I did not understand.

I just feel in my heart I forgive people. I cry when I have anger or unforgivness towards others. I can't sleep nor eat.

Is that okay, to forgive if they do not ask?

[CoreIssue]

I see what your saying. I mean I suppose it mostly has been told to me all my life, to forgive one another.
I understand that. Many have had that ground into them.

I get what your saying though. When we ask Jesus's forgivness for our sins, we are forgiven.

Yep.
That means we are forgiven, and even when we did not forgive someone , we are still forgiven, Therefore its not required. (I hope I am understanding)
Right.
If someone repents, we are to forgive them. BUT if they do not repent, we do not have to forgive.
Yep.
Now a question " would it be okay if we do forgive if they do not ask repentness?"
I will answer that last.
I understand all you have said before, and I thank you for showing me what I did not understand.
With understanding the whole issue become richer in meaning.
I just feel in my heart I forgive people. I cry when I have anger or unforgivness towards others. I can't sleep nor eat.
That is not one, but three issues. Each has to be dealt with individually. Even though they can come from a common issue.

Is that okay, to forgive if they do not ask?

You have no idea what a complex question you just asked.

First issue is did they know they sinned against you?

If they do not, it is your obligation to inform them if they did in a harmful way that they have an obligation to understand was sinning against you. Ignorance of law one should know is not an excuse.

If they do not, it is no biggie, they have justifiable reasons for not know it was a sin or that they did it, you can forgive them and move on because it was not a knowing sin.

There is no need to repent for what one justifiable was unaware or or could not know.

Paul tells us in Romans those who do not have the (Mosaic) Law are judged by Conscience. That is, the instilled knowing of right and wrong by God.

He further tells us to be accountable for sin we must know it is sin. BUT, if the knowledge is available and one dodges learning, they are accountable even when not knowing.

Now, a curve ball. You are responsible to teach, correct and reveal issues to other Christians who are immature and are sinning without know it is sin.

In the OT it says, if you fail to correct a brother and it leads to his destruction his blood is on your hands.

This is a many faceted issue. Not at all simplistic as some teach. As if just forgive everyone and move on covers it all. It does not.

Hope that helps.

[Jessie]

the sickness I had last week, my consilor said she believes it was
nerves. I tell ya I felt like someone took a sos pad to my insides.

its all over this forgiveness issue. Brandi, I used to blanket forgive everyone,
I was the biggest doormat! and truthfully after yrs I was getting resentful and I was angry.

I'd get kicked, forgive, and round and round over and over it was'nt stopping.

This way makes sense! and I'm getting much better.
I dont believe God would put me in such pain for forgiving it that was the right way to go.
(the blanket forgive everyone stuff)

I'm not resentful now. I am not overloaded with anger either.
I do get angry, but am able to at least admit to it now.
I have a long way to go.

but those in the extended family expect this blanket forgiving otherwise one is a troublemaker.
and that surely is NOT the Lord! victimizing the victim, using Gods word to do it too.


and Core it almost looks like I should write my sister and go over what you said with the curve ball. cause what she did was wrong in that card.
is this correct?

[CoreIssue]

and Core it almost looks like I should write my sister and go over what you said with the curve ball. cause what she did was wrong in that card.
is this correct?
No form of resolution can begin until issues are out in the open.

Otherwise, it is one pounding on another an both suffer for different reasons. Even if the suffering of one is spiritual.