Gog/Magog

[Chrystalwuzhere]

Can we study this? I know we've talked about it before, but I would like to go through it.

When is it? What needs to happen for it to take place? Who is involved?

[CoreIssue]

Start with who Gog and Magog are. That is tripping some people up.

Gog's direct tribal statements, in the Bible, make him Russia.

But Magog's lineage makes him pretty much all of Europe and Asia, thus by default, the whole world.

This trips many up because they ONLY see it referring to Russia. Thus they end up trying to force all the prophecies into one event at one time.

But, in fact, there are Mid, Second Coming and Short Time after the MK prophecies using these names.

And two, not one, Rapture events in association with them.

[Chrystalwuzhere]

Okay, gotcha so far!

Here we go.....

Ezekiel 38:8-9

8 "After many days you will be summoned; in the latter years you will come into the land that is restored from the sword, whose inhabitants have been gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel which had been a continual waste; but its people were brought out from the nations, and they are living securely, all of them.

9 "And you will go up, you will come like a storm; you will be like a cloud covering the land, you and all your troops, and many peoples with you."


So, according to these verses, Gog will be summoned to Israel... in other Words, it is ordained that they will come up against Israel. Yes?

Ezekiel 38:11-12

11 and you will say, 'I will go up against the land of unwalled villages. I will go against those who are at rest, that live securely, all of them living without walls, and having no bars or gates,

12 to capture spoil and to seize plunder, to turn your hand against the waste places which are now inhabited, and against the people who are gathered from the nations, who have acquired cattle and goods, who live at the center of the world. '

Verse 12 I get, and part of verse 11. But one part of verse 11 stumps me. It says "I will go up against the land of unwalled villages." Isn't Israel building a retaining wall? :scratch: What does it mean "unwalled villages?"

I'll stop here and wait for a response before I go on.

[CoreIssue]

Quote:
Ezekiel 38:8-9

8 "After many days you will be summoned; in the latter years you will come into the land that is restored from the sword, whose inhabitants have been gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel which had been a continual waste; but its people were brought out from the nations, and they are living securely, all of them.

9 "And you will go up, you will come like a storm; you will be like a cloud covering the land, you and all your troops, and many peoples with you."


So, according to these verses, Gog will be summoned to Israel... in other Words, it is ordained that they will come up against Israel. Yes?
Yes.

Quote:

Ezekiel 38:11-12

11 and you will say, 'I will go up against the land of unwalled villages. I will go against those who are at rest, that live securely, all of them living without walls, and having no bars or gates,

12 to capture spoil and to seize plunder, to turn your hand against the waste places which are now inhabited, and against the people who are gathered from the nations, who have acquired cattle and goods, who live at the center of the world. '

Verse 12 I get, and part of verse 11. But one part of verse 11 stumps me. It says "I will go up against the land of unwalled villages." Isn't Israel building a retaining wall? :scratch: What does it mean "unwalled villages?"

I'll stop here and wait for a response before I go on.
Wrong meaning.

Walls meant military defenses. And were manned by archers and swordsman.

Unwalled means unarmed and undefended. No military.

Part of the treaty has to be Israel ceasing to be a military threat to the Muslim nations. With the EU standing for them militarily.

[CoreIssue]

In you continued reading remember a Biblical tool and concept. A prophecy is often not limited to one issue and one time. Each part shares a common theme and purpose, but are distinct from each other in key aspects.

Like the King prophecied against containing the history of the fall of Satan. Two very similar scenarios but about two distinct times and persons.

Here the subject, Gog and Magog, and their condemnations, are the issues. But is it speaking of one or two time frames? Or one time frame with two events and not just one?

[Jessie]

Start with who Gog and Magog are. That is tripping some people up.

Gog's direct tribal statements, in the Bible, make him Russia.

But Magog's lineage makes him pretty much all of Europe and Asia, thus by default, the whole world.

This trips many up because they ONLY see it referring to Russia. Thus they end up trying to force all the prophecies into one event at one time.

But, in fact, there are Mid, Second Coming and Short Time after the MK prophecies using these names.

And two, not one, Rapture events in association with them.

would that mean the whole world will come up against them? or only those in
the areas?

glad you brought this up Chrystal!
2 rapture evens in association? could you explain this?

I'm totaly lost in this, as I only knew russia .

[Chrystalwuzhere]

Okay, just making sure I'm getting this....

Gog = Russia

Maggog = EU???


Yes???

[CoreIssue]

Okay, just making sure I'm getting this....

Gog = Russia

Maggog = EU???


Yes???
No. Gog is Russia. Magog is the offspring and descendents of Gog.

So, at Mid, it refers to those nations that fight with Russia. But at the Second Coming it refers to all the nations that fight with the AC. And, after the MK and at the end of the Short Time Gog and Magog represent every nation that attacks Jerusalem again.

Remember the Hebrew concept of a part representing a whole.

Like Egypt being used to represent the ungodly world when obviously the whole world is not Egypt.

Or Babylon being the ancient real kingdom and Mystery Babylon being a figurative kingdom name.

[CoreIssue]

]would that mean the whole world will come up against them? or only those in
the areas?

At Mid it means those who are the allies of Russia. Not the whole world.

At the Second Coming it means all the allies of the AC who send armies. But again, not the whole world.

At the Second Coming it means the whole world, I believe. But am not absolutely sure. A minimum being all the allies of Satan.
2 rapture evens in association? could you explain this?
There is one thief in the night event before the MK. We are all aware of that one.

But, in 2 Peter, when it says the earth and heavens are destroyed, it says there is a thief in the night event there as well.

Many try to twist that around to being the same Pre-Trib Rapture. But it cannot be as the passage clearly says this is when the earth is completely destroyed.

[Chrystalwuzhere]

The offspring and descendants of Gog? Okay, now I'm confused. :scratch:

[CoreIssue]

The offspring and descendants of Gog? Okay, now I'm confused. :scratch:
Magog was a son of Gog. And from Magog came the peoples of Europe and at least part of Asia.

Meaning he was the father of the Caucasian race.

[Brandli5]

Gog is told to be "the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal," from the north "the land of Magog" (Ezekiel 38:2-3). The prophet Ezekiel describes Gog attacking Israel with a powerful force (Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

According to this prophesy of Ezekiel, Gog will be defeated by God Himself on the mountains of Israel. The slaughter will be so great it will take seven months to bury all of the dead (Ezekiel 39:12).

Magog was a grandson of Noah (Genesis 10:2).

The descendants of Magog settled to the far north of Israel, likely in Europe and northern Asia (Ezekiel 38:2).

Magog seems to be used to refer to "northern barbarians" in general, but likely also has a connection to Magog the person. The people of Magog are described as skilled warriors (Ezekiel 38:15; 39:3-9).

The Book of Revelation uses Ezekiel's prophesy about Magog to portray a final end times attack on the nation of Israel (Revelation 20:8-9). Many Bible prophesy teachers identify Gog and Magog as Russia and/or China. This is possible, but not explicitly clear in the Bible.

I was looking this up because I did not understand at all what you were talking about, I found this information. I am going to find some more to make it a bit more understandable.

[CoreIssue]

Gog is told to be "the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal," from the north "the land of Magog" (Ezekiel 38:2-3). The prophet Ezekiel describes Gog attacking Israel with a powerful force (Ezekiel chapters 38-39).
That is Russia.

He attacks along with Persia, Germany and some other countries. But this is not the AC at Armageddon. Gog is not the AC.

And you are not dealing with him attacking an unarmed and peaceful Israel in a battle before Armageddon. Israel most assuredly is not a peaceful land at the Second Coming. 2/3 of the Jews are dead by the command of the AC and Satan. Israel is a raped, murdered and plundered land at the Second Coming.

There are two attacks in Ezekiel 38 and 39. Not just one.

You find the Mid attack in Daniel 11. Two battles, not one, in Ezekiel 38 and 39.
According to this prophesy of Ezekiel, Gog will be defeated by God Himself on the mountains of Israel. The slaughter will be so great it will take seven months to bury all of the dead (Ezekiel 39:12).
That is Armageddon at the Second Coming. And it is by the hand of Christ they are destroyed, at the command of God.

That fact is also not stated in Ezekiel 38 and 39.


Magog was a grandson of Noah (Genesis 10:2).

The descendants of Magog settled to the far north of Israel, likely in Europe and northern Asia (Ezekiel 38:2).

Magog seems to be used to refer to "northern barbarians" in general, but likely also has a connection to
Magog the person. The people of Magog are described as skilled warriors (Ezekiel 38:15; 39:3-9).

The Book of Revelation uses Ezekiel's prophesy about Magog to portray a final end times attack on the nation of Israel (Revelation 20:8-9). Many Bible prophesy teachers identify Gog and Magog as Russia and/or China. This is possible, but not explicitly clear in the Bible.


It actually is a fact it is referring to Russia. Those three names for Magog are traceable to the ancient settlers of Russia.

So, when those 3 names are used, it is explicit.

And China is an enemy of Russia. Not an ally. As is the EU under the AC.

And it is not the final attack on Israel. There is another after the MK and ending the Short Time of Satan. At which time there is another Thief in the Night event.


I was looking this up because I did not understand at all what you were talking about, I found this information. I am going to find some more to make it a bit more understandable.
I am long aware of this site.

The statements are incomplete. They do not deal with every facet of Ezekiel. And neglect statement in 2 Peter showing another attack on Israel at end of time.

[Jessie]

so will china and russia go at it?

and where you saying that russia along with some other countrys will attack isreal,
but we wont know for sure which ones will be involved?

I still dont understand the extra raptures....
only this one, I know about.

[CoreIssue]

so will china and russia go at it?

and where you saying that russia along with some other countrys will attack isreal,
but we wont know for sure which ones will be involved?

I still dont understand the extra raptures....
only this one, I know about.
Pop doctrine has painted a picture of peace and tranquility for the world during the first half of the Trib. Which is utter nonsense.

Only Israel is said to have that peace. The rest of the world is getting slammed by the Seals. We see in Daniel, in example, constant warfare outside of Israel.

It is a real mix up. One place China is against Russia. And as far as being at Armageddon, it is never said China will or will not be there. Another bad assumption by those reading the verses incorrectly.

Note, it says the nations that went against Israel will have to go there every year or be punished. It does not say all the nations of the world will have to go each year.

The AC will never establish a One World Government.

As for the Raptures, you are fully aware of the Pre-Trib one.

Consider these passages. What happens to the saints at this time? Are they consumed in the destruction or does Christ Rapture them out?


2 Peter 3
10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=68&chapter=3&version=31#fen-NIV-30517a)]


Revelation 20
7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The Dead Are Judged

11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.

Sure looks like another Trib like period where Satan is called god again. Another AC in the mix? Probably. Another FP? Probably. Another Thief in the Night? Yes.

[Chrystalwuzhere]

I always thought there would be war during the first half of the trib per scripture. China and Russia, to be more exact. From reading scripture, I realized that the AC is never able to bring world peace. He makes a peace deal with Israel (which is only temporary), but War will dog his entire reign. He never achieves complete and utter peace.

[CoreIssue]

I always thought there would be war during the first half of the trib per scripture. China and Russia, to be more exact. From reading scripture, I realized that the AC is never able to bring world peace. He makes a peace deal with Israel (which is only temporary), but War will dog his entire reign. He never achieves complete and utter peace.
Only God can bring world wide peace.

And to do so he has to glorify his chosen and put the rest in the Lake. ;)

[Brandli5]

THanks core.

I have asked my pastor to have more bible studies and of course there will not be any. I am glad I do have this site to come and learn. I have asked my own pastor questions like this, and he does not know the answers. I hope I can find a good church that has in detail studies like I used to have.

THanks for answering.

[CoreIssue]

THanks core.

I have asked my pastor to have more bible studies and of course there will not be any. I am glad I do have this site to come and learn. I have asked my own pastor questions like this, and he does not know the answers. I hope I can find a good church that has in detail studies like I used to have.

THanks for answering.
That is a common problem.

Many denominations get these kinds of doctrinal teachings from the denomination. They never studied it themselves so they do not even know where to begin when questions come up.

Or, will not even conceive of going against anything the denomination teaches.

[Jessie]

Pop doctrine has painted a picture of peace and tranquility for the world during the first half of the Trib. Which is utter nonsense.

Only Israel is said to have that peace. The rest of the world is getting slammed by the Seals. We see in Daniel, in example, constant warfare outside of Israel.

It is a real mix up. One place China is against Russia. And as far as being at Armageddon, it is never said China will or will not be there. Another bad assumption by those reading the verses incorrectly.

Note, it says the nations that went against Israel will have to go there every year or be punished. It does not say all the nations of the world will have to go each year.

The AC will never establish a One World Government.

As for the Raptures, you are fully aware of the Pre-Trib one.

Consider these passages. What happens to the saints at this time? Are they consumed in the destruction or does Christ Rapture them out?



Sure looks like another Trib like period where Satan is called god again. Another AC in the mix? Probably. Another FP? Probably. Another Thief in the Night? Yes.

wow I'm learning a lot here on this. I've always had the feeling the AC would not be able to set up a one world gov. although I think he trys.

the verse in 2 peter, I took that to be its all over. done with.
sounds like a world wide nuke.

the verse in Rev. will Jesus sit idly by just letting satan do it all over again? although this in in the millinium? and then just finally end it?

this is getting interesting.

humm and only those nations who went up against isreal have to go up every yr.
did'nt know that either. I thought all nations would have to go.

[CoreIssue]

the verse in 2 peter, I took that to be its all over. done with.
sounds like a world wide nuke.

Actually, it is more of God withdrawing his power that hold the universe together at the most basic levels. Chaos, now uncontrolled, allows everything to fly apart in its most basic components.

Definitely has not happed get.
the verse in Rev. will Jesus sit idly by just letting satan do it all over again? although this in in the millinium? and then just finally end it?
It isn't in the MK. It is immediately after the MK. When Christ, the Church as such leaves Satan is released.

humm and only those nations who went up against isreal have to go up every yr.
did'nt know that either. I thought all nations would have to go.
[/QUOTE]
That is what it says. A qualified statement.

[Jessie]

so when Jesus takes His people and leaves after the millineum,
is that when the judgement takes place? I'm lost in this :confused:

and which scriptures is that the portion in 2 peter?

[CoreIssue]

so when Jesus takes His people and leaves after the millineum,
is that when the judgement takes place? I'm lost in this :confused:

and which scriptures is that the portion in 2 peter?
Time Line
Now
Rapture/First Resurrection Begins
Trib/Wedding Supper of the Lamb/Judgement of Rewards/
Second Coming
MK
Short Time
First Resurrection Ends/Destruction current Heavens and Earth
New Heavens and Earth
Second Resurrection/White Throne Judgement

[Sid]

The offspring and descendants of Gog? Okay, now I'm confused. :scratch:


Russia plays a pivotal role in end-times prophesy. Maybe this link can help dispel the fog and get the discussion going:



Ezekiel 37-39 describes a time when Israel has been restored to her land but will then face an invasion force from a country in the north and her allies after God puts hooks in their jaws.


Those countries are listed by names we don't recognize today but it is not hard to trace where those people groups were once from. The following are the most common interpretations for those countries:


MAGOG is modern-day Russia and should also include Kazakhstan (the area north of the Caspian Sea).


Russia is no longer the superpower it once was and while it may be hard to see such a scenario happening today, it is no more difficult for God to accomplish than He did the recreation of Israel as a nation in 1948.

Ezekiel 39 would also seem to indicate the use of nuclear weapons in this conflict as specific instructions are given on burying the dead, including specialists who do this.

We will continue to monitor Russia's relations with Israel. Iran, one of the nations mentioned is also important to keep an eye on in light of its mutual assistance treaty with Russia. Israel has threatened to attack Iran if it continues with is nuclear program - this very well could be the hook in the jaws that draws Russia down.

Another nation to keep an eye on is Turkey as it is currently Israel's ally. If Turkey is to be involved in this invasion it would be a great dupe on Israel or things could change quickly in this Muslim country. The nuclear arms race in the Middle East continues and could play a factor in this conflict.


More. . . (www.prophecynewswatch.com/magog.html)

[Sid]

Russia plays a pivotal role in end-times prophesy. Maybe this link can help dispel the fog and get the discussion going:


Russia has successfully avoided public blame for the situation in the Middle East, but its ability to control and hide finances and intellectual property transfer has resulted in a steady supply of weapons, finances and technology to Syria and Iran, which in turn, empower Hezbollah and Hamas.

These are the foreshadows of the invasion of Israel led by Russia and Iran as prophesied in Ezekiel 38. The United States should give no ground to Russia, but rather should expose and condemn its clandestine support of terrorism and international chaos.



More. . . (watch.org/showart.php3?idx=80829&rtn=/index.html&showsubj=1&mcat=1)

[Centurion]

My belief is that the current turmoil in the Mideast is setting up the fulfillment of Isaiah 17.
Once Damascus is destroyed, I see the world coming down hard on Isreal and demanding peace in the region. Israel will capitulate, a semi peace will be enforced (not the covenant, but the "unwalled villages" stage) and quickly following will come the Gog-Magog invasion led by Russia and Iran, partially for revenge, partially for spoil. Once God deals with Gog-Magog and decimates them on the mountains of Israel, there will be a power vacuum of sorts. Europe will be shaking, so will the Far East. Into this vacuum steps the AC with his treaty and the covenant is enforced and the AC begins consolidating his power.

I believe that the Rapture precedes Ezekial 38, but not necessarly Isaiah 17, mostly because it is the Gog-Magog event that causes God to refocus His attention on Israel, meaning that the Church age will be over. I do believe it is possible that before the Rapture we could witness Isaiah 17.

I do not place Ezekiel 38-39 mid-Trib for a few reasons, one being that the outcome of the battle will result in Isreal burning the weapons of war for fuel for 7 years (Ezekiel 39: 9 - 15). I do not see there being a need for this during the Kingdom age, and if Ezekiel 38 happened mid-Trib, that would only give Israel 3.5 years to accomplish the burnings. Also, at mid-Trib is the abomination of desolations and after that event, Israel is pretty much on the run, suffering intense persecution. This time does not allow for the business as usual type actions descibed in Ezek. 39: 9-15.

[CoreIssue]

My belief is that the current turmoil in the Mideast is setting up the fulfillment of Isaiah 17.
Once Damascus is destroyed, I see the world coming down hard on Isreal and demanding peace in the region.

The wording demands it is at Second Coming. It cannot be now or before.

Israel will capitulate, a semi peace will be enforced (not the covenant, but the "unwalled villages" stage) and quickly following will come the Gog-Magog invasion led by Russia and Iran, partially for revenge, partially for spoil. Once God deals with Gog-Magog and decimates them on the mountains of Israel, there will be a power vacuum of sorts. Europe will be shaking, so will the Far East. Into this vacuum steps the AC with his treaty and the covenant is enforced and the AC begins consolidating his power.
The passages show that the AC invades Israel after this war.

Israel is never invaded by Russia, Iran and such. The AC cuts them off outside the borders of Israel and defeats them.

He then goes east, but is stopped by the fleets from the Island nations. Then he turns back and enters Israel.

When are you placing the invasion of Israel by the AC? Bible says Mid.

The Time of the Two Witnesses is a time of peace for Israel. The GT is not. Malachi 4 makes this pretty clear.

I believe that the Rapture precedes Ezekial 38, but not necessarly Isaiah 17, mostly because it is the Gog-Magog event that causes God to refocus His attention on Israel, meaning that the Church age will be over. I do believe it is possible that before the Rapture we could witness Isaiah 17.
So, you are a post-Tribber or Pre-Wrath?

When does the 70th Week of Daniel begin? How long is it?

When the 70th Week begins, the Church is gone.

I do not place Ezekiel 38-39 mid-Trib for a few reasons, one being that the outcome of the battle will result in Isreal burning the weapons of war for fuel for 7 years (Ezekiel 39: 9 - 15). I do not see there being a need for this during the Kingdom age,

It says they will. And Christ does not slay the army until they are gathered, which is not until the 6th Bowl.

The destruction of the army, the splitting of land allowing the water to enter, and such, are most assuredly at the Second Coming.

and if Ezekiel 38 happened mid-Trib, that would only give Israel 3.5 years to accomplish the burnings.

Facts are facts. Christ does the splitting. Christ destoys the army when he is physically present. That is Second Coming.

The burninig is indeed in the MK. Nothing hints at any loss of need for Man to not keep on maintaining the demands of every day life.


Also, at mid-Trib is the abomination of desolations and after that event, Israel is pretty much on the run, suffering intense persecution. This time does not allow for the business as usual type actions descibed in Ezek. 39: 9-15.

Yep. The woman flees at Mid. 2/3 of Israel is killed in the Great Trib.

So, there is not 7 years from the beginning of the Trib to burn the stuff.

Israel will not have a 7 year block of time to do these things until the Second Coming.

Sorry, not getting a clear picture here. Too many details conflict.

[Centurion]

I'm pre-trib, and believe that the 70th week begins once the covenant is confirmed. From my understanding of what you wrote, I see the battle of Ez. 38-39 as a seperate event at the beginning of the Trib, whereas (and I could be wrong) I think you are placing it as part of the many campaigns that comprise the actual battle of Armageddon.

[CoreIssue]

I'm pre-trib, and believe that the 70th week begins once the covenant is confirmed. From my understanding of what you wrote, I see the battle of Ez. 38-39 as a seperate event at the beginning of the Trib, whereas (and I could be wrong) I think you are placing it as part of the many campaigns that comprise the actual battle of Armageddon.
OK. Stil hazy on your time line. So, see where we agree and don't.

The 70th Week/Trib is 7 years long. The Charts link at the top contains a very complex look at the issues.

Here is a general outline.
Rapture/Two Witnesses/First Seal (AC)/Removal of the Restrainer begins the Trib.

Immediately befor Mid, Russia, Iran and such attack Israel, but they have a false sense of security from the AC and get cut to shreds. AC finishes with them and turns east ot eliminate more enemies, but the ships of the Islands force him to turn back. He now looks to Israel.
5th/6th/7th Seal day 1,260 First day of Mid. Woman flees
All Trumpets/3 Woes/invasion of Israel by AC/Woman reaches place of safety (probably Petra)/FP kills Two Witnesses
Bowls begin

7th Bowl is destruction of Rome, ending the Trib.
Second Coming/Armageddon

MK.


Ezekiel 38
10 " 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: On that day thoughts will come into your mind and you will devise an evil scheme. 11 You will say, "I will invade a land of unwalled villages; I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people—all of them living without walls and without gates and bars.

Unarmed and unsuspecting.

There is no way in the world this describes anything Pre-Trib or opening the Trib.

It will take the AC Treaty to get them to disarm. And they most assuredly will have to have been living in peace for years to become unsuspecting.

Even at the beginning of the AC treaty they are going to be suspecious of everything.

Further, as of right now, Russia just does not have the military muscle to even try this. But they are rebuilding.

Plus, the AC breaks the Treaty after 3.5 years of enforcing it.

This is Bowls

21 I will summon a sword against Gog on all my mountains, declares the Sovereign LORD.

Not God's sword. But a sword he summons.

Remember, Gog and Magog are not terms limited to Russia. They include all the peoples of Europe.
18 This is what will happen in that day: When Gog attacks the land of Israel, my hot anger will be aroused, declares the Sovereign LORD. 19 In my zeal and fiery wrath I declare that at that time there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. 20 The fish of the sea, the birds of the air, the beasts of the field, every creature that moves along the ground, and all the people on the face of the earth will tremble at my presence. The mountains will be overturned, the cliffs will crumble and every wall will fall to the ground. 21 I will summon a sword against Gog on all my mountains, declares the Sovereign LORD. Every man's sword will be against his brother. 22 I will execute judgment upon him with plague and bloodshed; I will pour down torrents of rain, hailstones and burning sulfur on him and on his troops and on the many nations with him. 23 And so I will show my greatness and my holiness, and I will make myself known in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the LORD.'
Day is not a single day. It is a period of time.

The plagues, bloodshed, hailstones, sulfer and so on can be found in the Bowls.

God and Magog are defeated by the AC. And when the AC enters Israel, God's wrath lashes out in Bowls again all, including Israel, who just rejected the Two Witnesses' message.

As Malachi says, then God's curse false on them.

It proceeds to the Feast of God at the Second Coming.

It is not one event. But a 3.5 year series of events.

It is impossible for Israel to be that unarmed, peaceful and unsuspecting nation at the beginning of the Trib. And God does not send the plagues, fire and such listed until the Bowls.

And Isaiah 17 is the Second Coming.

7At that day shall a man look to his Maker, and his eyes shall have respect to the Holy One of Israel.

Not before then will this happen.

[Centurion]

Unarmed and unsuspecting.
There is no way in the world this describes anything Pre-Trib or opening the Trib.
It will take the AC Treaty to get them to disarm. And they most assuredly will have to have been living in peace for years to become unsuspecting.
Even at the beginning of the AC treaty they are going to be suspecious of everything.
I am curious how you arive at this. The Hebrew betach implies a feeling of safety from false confidence, or carelessness. I do not see where it implies that Israel must be unarmed and unsuspecting. These are two completely different meanings. Israel could very well be armed and relying on their own strength have a false security.

The false peace that exists in Ezk 38 is not the same as the one during the 70th week. I think it will be the complete shock from the world at the events of Ezek 38 that brings the AC onto the world stage and allows his covenant to be enforced.

Another argument can be made for Ezek. 38 preceding the 70th week is that one of the results of God wiping out the Gog-Magog forces is a return to God by Israel. This will also see a return to Levitical worship which requires the temple be built. The abomination of desolations occurs mid-Trib and the temple is defiled. There has to have been a temple in place already for this to occur.

[CoreIssue]

I am curious how you arive at this. The Hebrew betach implies a feeling of safety from false confidence, or carelessness. I do not see where it implies that Israel must be unarmed and unsuspecting. These are two completely different meanings. Israel could very well be armed and relying on their own strength have a false security.
That is a massive read in onto the passage. Simple not stated.


Eze 38:11 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=eze+38:11&version=nas&st=1&sd=2&new=1&showtools=1) and you will say (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0559&version=nas), 'I will go (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=05927&version=nas) up against (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=05921&version=nas) the land (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0776&version=nas) of unwalled (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=06519&version=nas) villages (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=06519&version=nas). I will go (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=05927&version=nas) against those who are at rest (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=08252&version=nas), that live (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03427&version=nas) securely (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0983&version=nas), all (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03605&version=nas) of them living (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03427&version=nas) without (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0369&version=nas) walls (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=02346&version=nas) and having (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0369&version=nas) no (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0369&version=nas) bars (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=01280&version=nas) or gates (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=01817&version=nas), Here it is, again, in the NASB.

Without walls


Strong's Number: 369 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/browse.cgi?number=0369&version=nas) Original WordWord Origin!yaas if from a primitive root meaning to be nothing or not existTransliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0369&version=nas#Legend) Entry'ayinTWOT - 81Phonetic SpellingParts of Speechah'-yin http://bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=0369h) Neuter Definition
nothing, not, nought n
nothing, nought neg
not
to have not (of possession) adv
without w/prep
for lack of
Strong's Number: 2346 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/browse.cgi?number=02346&version=nas) Original WordWord Originhmwxact. participle of an unused root apparently meaning to joinTransliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=02346&version=nas#Legend) EntryChowmahTWOT - 674cPhonetic SpellingParts of Speechkho-maw' http://bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=2346h) Noun Feminine Definition
wall
Clearly says without walls.

Having no bars or gates.
Strong's Number: 369 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/browse.cgi?number=0369&version=nas) Original WordWord Origin!yaas if from a primitive root meaning to be nothing or not existTransliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0369&version=nas#Legend) Entry'ayinTWOT - 81Phonetic SpellingParts of Speechah'-yin http://bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=0369h) Neuter Definition
nothing, not, nought n
nothing, nought neg
not
to have not (of possession) adv
without w/prep
for lack of
Negative declaration. Not having.

They have no wall, bars or gates for defense. Very clearly said.
The false peace that exists in Ezk 38 is not the same as the one during the 70th week.
That is not in harmony with the Bible to theorize this. There is no indication of 2 peaces. Only one.
I think it will be the complete shock from the world at the events of Ezek 38 that brings the AC onto the world stage and allows his covenant to be enforced.
Sorry, but that is speculation not supported by the verses.

The escalation of what is happening now is more than enough to set the stage for the AC. And his coming up with actual peace will most assuredly shock the world.
Another argument can be made for Ezek. 38 preceding the 70th week is that one of the results of God wiping out the Gog-Magog forces is a return to God by Israel.
Sorry, but the sulfer, firey hail and such do not occur until after Mid. Which again places the timing as beginning at Mid.

This will also see a return to Levitical worship which requires the temple be built. The abomination of desolations occurs mid-Trib and the temple is defiled. There has to have been a temple in place already for this to occur.

Correct. But the needed pieces for the Temple already exist. Ready to be put up.

And remember, the services can begin in a tent, even, as they did in the OT, until the Temple is finished.

The Two Witnesses are in the Temple Inner Court area for 3.5 years prior to Mid. So the Temple issues begins at the same time as the appearance of the Two. Which is at the Pre-Trib Rapture.

The time line is actually very firm. Two Witnesses followed by AC in Temple.
Two Witnesses and priests in Temple for 3.5 years.
7 year treaty with Israel at peace for 3.5 years.

The peace comes to Israel by the AC. Not before.

[DeeLeeKay]

This has me more confused then ever. Gog/Magog has many people's with them, do they not?
Gog/Magog also comes against Israel at the end of the MK, which would make the prince Gog a name for Satan would it not?

[CoreIssue]

Gog/Magog is talking about a people, not just a nation.

Ancient Gog through Magog was the father of a people. Those people settled much or Europe and even parts of the Far East.

But, in lineage, the straight line descendants settled Russia.

So, when referring to a nation, it is Russia. When referring to a people, it covers lot of Europe.

Remember the ancient concept of a nation was the people who descended from someone of note. Not specific borders. The people remained the people. The borders could move.

[DeeLeeKay]

Ezekiel 38-39 also have a multiple of nations, right?

Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:

[CoreIssue]

Ezekiel 38-39 also have a multiple of nations, right?

Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:
Right. At Mid.

And you also see Gog/Magog after the MK and Short Time when the earth is destroyed.

Revelation 20
7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

Which corresponds to 2 Peter 3 where you see another thief in the night event as well.

[DeeLeeKay]

Ezekiel 38-39 also have a multiple of nations, right?

Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:

[CoreIssue]

Ezekiel 38-39 also have a multiple of nations, right?

Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:
Yep. More than Gog/Magog.

As does Armageddon.

[DeeLeeKay]

What is the difference between Gog/Magog and Armegeddon

[CoreIssue]

What is the difference between Gog/Magog and Armegeddon
One is at Mid, when Russia is defeated and destroyed followed by the AC invading Israel. The other is at Mediggo, outside of Jerusalem at the Second Coming, when the AC now goes down in defeat.

So, Mid is headed by Russia, along with Germany, Iran and some others. Armageddon is headed by the AC and has the AC armies, his allies and other nations.

There is 3.5 years between the two.

[DeeLeeKay]

Where does the Gog/Magog battle take place?

[CoreIssue]

Where does the Gog/Magog battle take place?
Outside the borders of Israel. Not within.

Ezekiel must be read in combination with Daniel. In Daniel you see Russia and such attacking, but the AC intervening and destroying them, turning to the east for more conquest, being stopped and then turning back and invading Israel at a time they are at peace and unarmed, which is Mid, not Second Coming.

Note Ezekiel begins with the invasion when Israel is at peace and ends with the destruction at the Second Coming. it is talking about the full 3.5 years, not a single event or or single time.

[DeeLeeKay]

Core,

Does the Gog/Magog battle happen in the Mountains of Israel?


Eze 39:2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:
Eze 39:3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.
Eze 39:4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that [is] with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and [to] the beasts of the field to be devoured.

[Jessie]

is this the same battle as of armegedon?

[Jessie]

One is at Mid, when Russia is defeated and destroyed followed by the AC invading Israel. The other is at Mediggo, outside of Jerusalem at the Second Coming, when the AC now goes down in defeat.

So, Mid is headed by Russia, along with Germany, Iran and some others. Armageddon is headed by the AC and has the AC armies, his allies and other nations.

There is 3.5 years between the two.

this is confusing as I was not taught about this.. :scratch: although it answers my other question.

so russia gets destroyed mid trib....is that so the ac can rule without
problems at that point from russia?

and armageddon what is that war for?

separating these is confusing :scratch: :aah:

[CoreIssue]

DLK, you are missing the point.

There are 2, not one, battles involving Gog. You are pointing to the end of the Trib at the Second Coming, where it is in the valley of Mediggo.

Remember at that time the AC and his armies have already been in Jerusalem for 3.5 years. So as the soldiers run for it from the field and city, many do fall on the mountains in their efforts to escape from the battle field on the plains of Mediggo.

But chapter 38 opens at Mid.

This is a 3.5 year time frame, not a one day one event one.

[CoreIssue]

Jessie, when you read in Daniel you see the AC engages in many wars during the first half of the Trib.

He betrays his supposed allies and lures them into a position where he can destroy them at Mid.

Meaning, allies with him to defeat his other enemies and then he destroys them, leaving him the last man standing.

Deceit is how he comes to power, rules, turns the EU into the reformed Roman Empire and ends up invading Israel by breaking the treaty.

[Jessie]

for some reason I'm having a hard time grasping all this.
although I did tonight go back and re read it all.
and I posted on it too... I get some of it.

I understand the AC will destroy many thru peace. (the last man standing thing)

on another post of mine you replied to, you mentioned it sounded like another
trib, and all the rest. this is off topic but do you think it will be another 6000 yr period?
then finally satan gets cast into hell?

[Jessie]

Jessie, when you read in Daniel you see the AC engages in many wars during the first half of the Trib.

He betrays his supposed allies and lures them into a position where he can destroy them at Mid.

Meaning, allies with him to defeat his other enemies and then he destroys them, leaving him the last man standing.

Deceit is how he comes to power, rules, turns the EU into the reformed Roman Empire and ends up invading Israel by breaking the treaty.

I think what you are trying to say is going right over my head.
I got some of it now, just clicked. :swoon: please brain kick in! :sob:

[CoreIssue]

for some reason I'm having a hard time grasping all this.
although I did tonight go back and re read it all.
and I posted on it too... I get some of it.

I understand the AC will destroy many thru peace. (the last man standing thing)

on another post of mine you replied to, you mentioned it sounded like another
trib, and all the rest. this is off topic but do you think it will be another 6000 yr period?
then finally satan gets cast into hell?
I don't know the length of time. But have wondered about it many times.

Satan is released when Christ leaves.

I imagine those who didn't like Christ will immediately begin maneuvering for power. Satan will do his best to egg them on and disrupt everything.

After 1,000 years Man will probably be pretty 'bored' with it all. Satan will be a powerful alternative many will jump at.

Somehow I think it will be a few centuries at most. Just a gut feeling.

[CoreIssue]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreIssue http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showthread.php?p=16589#post16589)
Jessie, when you read in Daniel you see the AC engages in many wars during the first half of the Trib.

He betrays his supposed allies and lures them into a position where he can destroy them at Mid.

Meaning, allies with him to defeat his other enemies and then he destroys them, leaving him the last man standing.

Deceit is how he comes to power, rules, turns the EU into the reformed Roman Empire and ends up invading Israel by breaking the treaty.

I think what you are trying to say is going right over my head.
I got some of it now, just clicked. :swoon: please brain kick in! :sob:

It is far from the simple picture most try to paint.

The more Christians a country had the bigger impact the Rapture will have. They will change big time as countries.

The AC will be out of the gate immediately with the peace plan and filling the void the Church left.

His treaty will trigger off a number of wars. Those that signed with him against those that oppose it.

For 3.5 years it will be war after war after war. We see the results in the Seals.

That will largely leave the US, EU, China and Russia as the power boys on the block. But the US will have been weakened in resolve and ablity to respond due to the Rapture and first half of the Trib.

To pacify its allies Russia will move on Israel, thinking the EU will not interfer, but the AC pins them and destoys them, thus eliminating a huge enemy.

From that China will move, as we see in the 2 million man army marching. But I think they will get slaughtered by the AC, due to the terrain, the locusts and other factors.

Now the AC is the man. Now he begins slaughtering Saints and Jews in earnest.

After all, who is around to challenge him now?

But God is angry at Israel, beginning at Mid as seen in Malachi. The curse falls on Israel via the AC. And angry at the AC and the world for killing his saints and invading Israel, so we see the Bowls.

All of this is Christ's cleansing and taking of the earth so only those worthy to enter the MK are left, which is only 1/3 of Man, including only 1/3 of Israel.

The time of testing where the weeds and the wheat are determined for burinng and harvest.

[DeeLeeKay]

The way I understand it is this way.

Rapture
Beginning of th trib
The two witnesses are in Israel 42 months
when this time is over(Mid Trib) the AC or beast from the bottomless pit overcomes the witnesses and the rest of God's people and rules over the world for 42 months.
Mid trib the AC takes over Jerusalem(Gog?!?!)
End of Tribulation - Jesus returns and the battle of Armegeddon commences.

[CoreIssue]

The way I understand it is this way.

Rapture
Beginning of th trib
The two witnesses are in Israel 42 months
when this time is over(Mid Trib) the AC or beast from the bottomless pit overcomes the witnesses and the rest of God's people and rules over the world for 42 months.
Mid trib the AC takes over Jerusalem(Gog?!?!)
End of Tribulation - Jesus returns and the battle of Armegeddon commences.
Only a correction on one point.

The AC is the First Beast. He appears in the First Seal and is active, but hidden, even before the Trib. He is revealed with the Holy Spirit (Restrainer) is removed.

The Second Beast rises at Mid. That is the demon that enters the False Prophet and who then kills the Two.

5th Trumpet contains First Woe, the casting down of Satan.
6th Trumpet contains the Second Woe, the rise of the Second Beast demon into the FP.
7th Trumpet contains the Third Woe, the formation and empowering of the False Trinity for 42 months.

Satan enters the image giving it the appearance of life by the hands of the FP. Being the image of the AC Satan receives worship through it.

You see evil spirits coming out of the mouths of the AC, FP and dragon in the 6th Bowl. Since Satan is the Dragon and an evil spirit, he as to be in something to comeout of it. So the Dragon is in the dragon (image).

[DeeLeeKay]

The AC or beast from the bottomless pit is given power for only 42 months to make war against the Saints. It is this beast that overcomes the two witnesses. The 2nd beast or false prophet forces the worship of the 1st beast. To me this suggests that the 2nd beast is a religious system with a religious leader who is the false prophet.

[CoreIssue]

The AC or beast from the bottomless pit is given power for only 42 months to make war against the Saints. It is this beast that overcomes the two witnesses. The 2nd beast or false prophet forces the worship of the 1st beast. To me this suggests that the 2nd beast is a religious system with a religious leader who is the false prophet.
No. The AC is revealed in the First Seal. Thes says he is revealed when the Restrainer is removed. Daniel say he does the treaty beginning the Trib.

The First Beast rises from the sea of people. The Second Beast rises from the earth, the Pit. Clearly stated.
Revelation 13

1And the dragon[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2013;&version=31;#fen-NIV-30894a)] stood on the shore of the sea.
</H4>Satan is the Dragon.


The Beast out of the Sea

And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. 2The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. 3One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast. 4Men worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, "Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?"

5The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months. 6He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. 8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.

9He who has an ear, let him hear.
10If anyone is to go into captivity,
into captivity he will go.
If anyone is to be killed[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2013;&version=31;#fen-NIV-30903c)] with the sword,
with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.



The AC is the First Beast and rises from the people.


The Beast out of the Earth

11Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon. 12He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men. 14Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.
18This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.

The False Prophet is the Second Beast and rises from the earth, meaning the Pit.


Revelation 11
7When they have finished their testimony, (R (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2011;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30881R))the beast that comes up out of the (S (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2011;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30881S))abyss will (T (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2011;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30881T))make war with them, and overcome them and kill them.

The Beast from the Pit/earth/Abyss kills them. Not the First Beast, the AC.

The FP is the High Priest, a single male, of the godking AC. Rome is the capital of his empire and religion.

The FP is not a religious system.


Revelation 16
13And I saw coming out of the mouth of the (AH (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2016;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30969AH))dragon and out of the mouth of the (AI (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2016;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30969AI))beast and out of the mouth of the (AJ (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2016;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30969AJ))false prophet, three (AK (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2016;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30969AK))unclean spirits like (AL (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2016;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30969AL))frogs;
14for they are (AM (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2016;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30970AM))spirits of demons, (AN (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2016;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30970AN))performing signs, which go out to the kings of the (AO (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2016;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30970AO))whole world, to (AP (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2016;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30970AP))gather them together for the war of the (AQ (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2016;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30970AQ))great day of God, the Almighty.

There are 3 evil spirits in three personages at the 6th Bowl.

We know the dragon is Satan coming out. Coming out of what? The statue.

We know the AC is the 8th King who is indwelt by the demon of the 5th King because John says he was, is not but will be the 8th King.

The 5th King was Alexander over the Greek Empire, the 3rd Beast of Daniel and the Brass of the Statue.

We know the Ten Toes reform the Roman Empire and surrender their rule to the AC.

The Pagan Roman religion was emporer worship. The AC is a godking.

The Pagan Romans had a High Priest to the Emporer. Before that power was assumed into the AC that High Priest's titlle was Pontificus Maximus. What now is held by the RCC Pope.

The AC, FP and Satan are the False Trinity. AC is false Christ, Satan is False Father and the FP is False Holy Spirit. That cannot be formed if the FP or AC are systems, not persons.

Nothing in the Bible justifies saying the FP is a system. The Harlot is the RCC that will be destroyed and reverted to the Pagan Roman system. Her colors are both Romes and the RCCs.

Revelation 19

20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshipped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulphur. 21 The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

The FP is cast alive into Hell. People, not systems, are cast into Hell.
Beast means a person, not a system, who is brutal and like an animal.
[B]Strong's Number: 2342 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/browse.cgi?number=2342&version=kjv)Original WordWord Originqhrivondiminutive from the same as (2339 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2339&version=kjv))Transliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2342&version=kjv#Legend) EntryTherion3:133,333Phonetic SpellingParts of Speechthay-ree'-on http://bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=2342g) Noun Neuter Definition

an animal
a wild animal, wild beast, beast
metaph. a brutal, bestial man, savage, ferocious
No. There is no way to get the FP to be a system Biblically. Nothing even hints at it.

[CoreIssue]

Add, the AC is killing Trib Saints in the first half of the Trib. We see them under the Alter. The 5th Seal is at Mid, day 1,260, closing out the first half of the Trib.

In the 42 months the pace of slaughter sky rockets, but that does not mean the saints were not touched until after Mid.

[DeeLeeKay]

Core,

We are gonna have to agree to disagree here.

The beast from the bottomless pit is also discribed as a 7 headed ten horned beast.

Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

[CoreIssue]

We are gonna have to agree to disagree here.
You are missing it, DLK.
The beast from the bottomless pit is also discribed as a 7 headed ten horned beast.
Read Revelation 13 again. It says the Second Beast, FP only has 2 horns. The First Beast has 7 heads, etc.

Now note, Revelation 13 says the Second Beast rises at Mid. That is the Second Woe.

It says the First Beast rises from the people. Absolutely no mention of any First Beast demon at Mid. Only the Second Beast demon.

There are two Beasts, not one. The same description does not apply to both, as you are trying to do.
Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
Per chapter 13 this is the First Beast. The Second only has 2 horns.
Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
This cannot be the Second Beast. The Second only has two horns per chapter 13.

Note how this is resolved.

The Second Beast demon is stated to rise at Mid in Chapter 13. The First comes out of the people. Therefore the First Beast demon is already there and not rising at Mid.

17:8 states that demon will rise from the Pit, but it does not state when.

But it tells you that it is the 8th king, the 5th king who was, is not but will be the 8th, the AC. The AC is the First Seal and the treaty author kicking off the 70th Week of Daniel, but not revealed until the Holy Spirit is revealed.

That means he is already risen and in the human AC before the Trib begins. And already carrying the Harlot.

That has to be for him to have the treaty already written. Has to be for him to be hidden to be revealed at the Rapture/First Seal.

You are trying to take the attributes of the First Beast in chapter 13 and transfer them to the Second in Chapter 17. Cannot do that.

There are 2, not one, Beasts. First has 10 horns on 7 head, Second has 2 horns on one head. Second serves the First.

You cannot reconcile what you are saying with chapters 13 & 17 when viewed in totality of what is said. The AC does not begin at Mid, he is probably very active on the earth right now.

The First is godking, the Second is High Priest. The image Satan indwells is erected by the Second Beast and looks like the First.

The 6th Bowl clearly states 3 persons, not 2 and a system. The FP and AC are clearly persons tossed into the Pit, not a system.

What you are saying is contradictiory, DLK. Simple cannot be reconciled.

[DeeLeeKay]

Core, I am not missing it.


The 7 headed 10 horned beast is the first beast as well as the beast from the bottomless pit.

Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

This beast is given power to overcome the saints for 42 months.

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months.Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.


Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.


When the two witnessesw are finished(at Mid Trib) the beast(from the bottomless pit-the 1st beast) over comes them.

[CoreIssue]

Come on, DLK. Stop skipping verses and words.
Revelation says:

And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns,

For the Trib he rises out of the sea, the people.

At Mid, here is who rises from the Pit. Clearly stated:
11Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb,
He comes out of the Pit at Mid. And is not the Beast with 7 Heads and Ten Horns.

There is absolutely no statement in Revelation that the AC demon rises out of the Pit during the Trib. He is absolutely the First Seal and who is revealed by the removal of the Holy Spirit.

You cannot avoid the direct declaration the Second Beast, with 2 horns, rises at Mid. The FP, not the AC.

The FP kills the Two Witnesses. Not the AC.

You keep avoiding what Revelation 13 states. First Beast, not Second, has the 7 heads and 10 horns. Second has 2 horns and 1 head. Second Beat comes out of the Pit at Mid, not the First.

Clearly stated in chapter 13.

Yes, the demon of the AC comes out of the Pit. No, it does not come out at Mid. But before the Trib begins.

You have to deal with chapter 13 in its entirity. Not just the parts you want.

The one who kills the Two ascends present tense, not past tense. So that makes it the FP Beast.

[CoreIssue]

The FP is not a system that ascends out of the Pit at Mid. He is a man, possessed by a demon that ascends at Mid.

[DeeLeeKay]

Core,

The Beast from the bottomless pit arises at mid trib to over take and kill the 2 witnesses. You are missing it, Core, not me.

There are two beasts.

1) 7 headed 10 Horned= Beast from the Sea
2) 2 Horned = Beast from the Earth

Revelation 17 states it is the 7 headed 10 Horned beast that is the Beast from the Bottomless Pit not the 2 horned beast.


Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

[CoreIssue]

Another thing that takes away from chapter 13 is how the KJV translates it. It leaves Satan out.


1And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore. Then I saw a (A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%2013:1;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30911A))beast coming up out of the sea, having (B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%2013:1;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30911B))ten horns and (C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%2013:1;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30911C))seven heads, and on his horns were (D (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%2013:1;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30911D))ten diadems, and on his heads were (E (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%2013:1;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30911E))blasphemous names.

You see Satan, the AC and the FP in chapter 13. That gives a whole lot clearly picture of what is going on.

Satan is cast down in the First Woe, the FP demon rises as the Second and the form the False Trinity as the Third.

Satan cast down from heven onto the shores of Man, AC rising from the sea of Man in the First Seal and the FP rising from the earth/Pit. Then Satan empowers them and they are the False Trinity.

[CoreIssue]

DLK, chapter 13 says this:
And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns,

11Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb,

Which Beast did he see rise from the earth at Mid? The one with 7 heads or the one with 1?

Chapter 17 sets no timing for the rising of the demon of the First Beast.

[DeeLeeKay]

Core,

I see the 7 headed 10 horned beast asending out of the pit at mid trib to over take the two witnesses.

The two witesses are over taken at mid trib, right?

[CoreIssue]

You didn't answer my question.

Chapter 13. Which Beast is stated to rise out of the earth/Pit?

Quote:
And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns,


Quote:
11Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb,

One point at at time to get this resolved.

[DeeLeeKay]

The False prophet arises from the earth. It is NOT called the beast from the bottomless pit.

[CoreIssue]

The False prophet arises from the earth. It is NOT called the beast from the bottomless pit.
Neither is the First Beast here.

Sea, as seen in the picture of Heaven and such are people.

The Pit is in the earth, is it not?

This is what happens at Mid. This is the key.

Chapter 17 sets absolutely no time frame for when the demon of the First Beast rises from the Pit. Nor does Chapter 13.

But Chapter 13 does set the time of the rising of the demon of the Second Beast.

Plus, we know Rome, the Harlot, is riding the Beast long before Mid. We know the AC is around before the First Seal and is revealed in the First Seal.

Not one word of the AC, 7 Heads, gaining a demon at Mid anywhere. But most assuredly the FP does.

[DeeLeeKay]

Core,

Earth does not have to mean bottomless pit. In fact Revelation 17 makes it impossible. For REVELATION 17 SAYS the 7 headed 10 horned beast is the BEAST FROM THE BOTTOMLESS PIT.

[CoreIssue]

Also note that Mid is the absolute first mention of the FP at all.

[CoreIssue]

Core,

Earth does not have to mean bottomless pit. In fact Revelation 17 makes it impossible. For REVELATION 17 SAYS the 7 headed 10 horned beast is the BEAST FROM THE BOTTOMLESS PIT.
You are not thinking, DLK.

There is no statement of when the AC demon rises. None.

But we absolutely know the demon of the AC existed in the 5th king, the king who was, is not and will be the 8th. We know the AC becomes king at the First Seal/Treaty/Rapture, not mid.

So the AC demon MUST be there before the Trib even begins.

[DeeLeeKay]

Core,

There is a statement of when it rises. When are the two witnesses overcome?

[CoreIssue]

Core,

There is a statement of when it rises. When are the two witnesses overcome?
So you are saying the AC does not become king until Mid. That the Holy Spirit is here to Mid?

That is Mid Trib rapture doctrine.

[CoreIssue]

By the way. Post the verse that states when the 7 headed Beast demon rises from the Trib.

Don't post when the Two are killed at Mid. That most assuredly does not say which Beast rises then.

You are assuming it is the First Beast there and you are assuming the statement of the Harlot riding the Beast means Mid. Never said and as stated is impossible.

And, you are are assuming rising from the earth does not mean Pit. So what else could it mean?

[DeeLeeKay]

Core,

The only thing I said was that the beast from the bottomless pit/AC is allowed to over come the saints for 42 months. The 42 months start mid trib. The timing of this event is spelled out in the judgements when the Angel with the keys lets this beast loose. It is the 5th trumpet. Also Revelation 11 says it is when the 2 witnesses finish.

Rev 9:1 ¶ And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.


Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit

Rev 9:11 And they had a king over them, [which is] the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue [is] Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath [his] name Apollyon.

[DeeLeeKay]

Don't post when the Two are killed at Mid. That most assuredly does not say which Beast rises then.


It most assuredly does say that the beast from the bottomless pit over comes them.

[DeeLeeKay]

Core,

Tell me which beast is this from the context?

Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is

[CoreIssue]

The only thing I said was that the beast from the bottomless pit/AC is allowed to over come the saints for 42 months. The 42 months start mid trib. The timing of this event is spelled out in the judgements when the Angel with the keys lets this beast loose. It is the 5th trumpet. Also Revelation 11 says it is when the 2 witnesses finish.
It never says the AC demon is loosed then or rises from the Pit then.

The only Beast stated directly as rising from the earth at Mid is the Second Beast. And it is stated to rise.

Rev 9:1 ¶ And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit

Rev 9:11 And they had a king over them, [which is] the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue [is] Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath [his] name Apollyon.
Satan is the king of the Pit.

Satan is the First Woe.

The FP Beast rises in the 6th Trumpet, Second Woe, at Mid, and kills the Two Witnesses.

It never says the AC kills them.

The AC is there for the full 7 years. A fact you are not dealing with. The FP does not appear until Mid, nor does Satan. The AC Beast is the only one of the 3 there the first 3.5 years. Thus the reason no Trib time is set for his rising.

We a direct time statement for Satan appearing, and how he appears. Cast down at Mid. We see a direct statement for when the Second Beast demon, the FP appears, from the earth at Mid. We see a direct statement for when the AC appears. The First Seal. But we see no timing for when the AC demon appears, only that John says at some time he will rise from the Pit.

That is because he is with the AC before the Trib begins.

But note the 6th Bowl states all three are bodies have evil spirits in them.

Under your thinking there is no comment about the FP demon rising at any time, but he is there. Under what I said, all 3 evil spirits are seen and their origin is told.

Really, DLK, you don't have the AC as king until Mid, since the demon is what makes him the king who was and is the 8th.

At least think about it. And the fact the FP is not a system, but a man.

[CoreIssue]

It most assuredly does say that the beast from the bottomless pit over comes them.
Yes, but it most assuredly does not say it is the AC.

The ONLY demon rising at Mid is the Second Beast from the earth.

Again, no mention of the FP prior to his rising from the Pit. No mention of Satan until he is cast down. But the AC is there the full 7 years with no mention of is demon rising during the Trib.

[CoreIssue]

Core,

Tell me which beast is this from the context?

Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is
The AC. The First Beast.

Now you tell me when the AC appears in the Trib, in Revelation, First Seal or Mid? When does Satan appear? When does the FP appear?

[DeeLeeKay]

Core,

I have always questioned the current prevailent wisdom. Why? It never matched up for me. I think after talking to you this evening I am no longer pre trib. For me the Bible says that the AC not the FP is the beast from the bottomless pit. I am definately pre wrath not post tribulation.

[DeeLeeKay]

The AC. The First Beast.

Now you tell me when the AC appears in the Trib, in Revelation, First Seal or Mid? When does Satan appear? When does the FP appear?


I do not believe that the timing of the FP is stated. Whereas Satan is there all the time. He is kicked out of Heaven midtrib. The AC appears at the 5th Trumpet. Does this mean the 5th trumpet is mid trib? I dunno. The AC overcomes the saints at mid tribulation.

[CoreIssue]

Core,

I have always questioned the current prevailent wisdom. Why? It never matched up for me. I think after talking to you this evening I am no longer pre trib. For me the Bible says that the AC not the FP is the beast from the bottomless pit. I am definately pre wrath not post tribulation.
Hmmmm. Now you have the problem of the 24 Elders sitting at the First Seal glorified and rewarded. And the issues of the 6th and 7th Church. Rev 3:10 says we won't be there for the time of testing, which is the whole 7 years.

I don't see your issue with the Second Beast being the FP, who rises from the Pit. Does not make sense unless you are trying to insist the Second Beast is some kind of religious system and not a person.

And that thinking is in deep trouble right off whith the 6th Bowl, who is cast into the Pit at the Second Coming and so on.

1/3 of the earth dies during the first half of the Trib. You have the saints in the middle of it and being Raptured after the Woman is taken to safety for 42 months and Satan is on the earth killing saints.

Pre-Wrath is loaded with problems. As is Mid Trib and Post.

[DeeLeeKay]

My issue is that the FP is not the beast from the pit according to the Bible.

[CoreIssue]

My issue is that the FP is not the beast from the pit according to the Bible.
You are assuming.

And like it or not, you still have to deal with the 24 Elders, Rev 3:10, Daniel stating the whole 70th Week is Israel, not Church, the AC being the First Seal and a ton of other things.

The FP is from the earth where the Pit is. Happens at Mid. So what does from the earth mean then?

Your hanging up on a point you cannot prove and disregarding a ton of info you cannot explain.

Not good study habits there. The 24 and the rest are not going to go away.

[DeeLeeKay]

The Bible tells me that the AC is the beast from the pit. I do not need anyone else to tell me I have to do this or that. It is the beast from the BP that overcomes the witnesses and then has a 42 month reign.

[DeeLeeKay]

I have taken Daniel and revelation and always use the two when I get stumped. The Beast from the Sea is from amoung the Earth's inhabitance according to Daniel. There is not much in the bible about the FP. Only mentioned in Revelation and maybe 3-4 times. The False prophet is Satan's high priest causing the world to worship Satan and the AC. Symbolically what does earth mean and what does sea mean? These are good questions. I have yet to find a satifactory answer. Sea could mean any number of things. Coming from the Mediterrean Sea, the Euphrates River, or the sea of humanity. The only thing Daniel tells us here is that there are 4 beasts that arise from the sea. I have heard that the Earth means the land of Israel itself. My gut feeling(and I have nothing to base this on other then this beast does force the worship of Satan and the AC, which is a connection to religion) is that the earth has something to do with what happens on the earth as opposed to heaven and earth.

[CoreIssue]

I have taken Daniel and revelation and always use the two when I get stumped. The Beast from the Sea is from amoung the Earth's inhabitance according to Daniel.
Agree. The AC, king.
There is not much in the bible about the FP. Only mentioned in Revelation and maybe 3-4 times.
Agree again.
The False prophet is Satan's high priest causing the world to worship Satan and the AC.
Agree again. A man, not a system.
Symbolically what does earth mean and what does sea mean?
Sea we know. It is always used in this context to mean from huge numbers of people.

Earth has no symbolic meaning in the Bible. It is always used to mean from dirt of the ground to the earth as a whole. But always in the context of ground/dirt/planet.

And you do have a clarification of meaning given in the Bible. When Saul went to the medium she summoned the prophet. He is stated to have risen from the earth. Come out of the earth.

Paradise, where he was, is a chamber off of the Pit.

Therefore, to rise from the earth is to come from the Pit.

It is never used in any other way. So it does mean from the Pit.
These are good questions. I have yet to find a satifactory answer.
The ones I gave are the ones that apply.
Sea could mean any number of things. Coming from the Mediterrean Sea, the Euphrates River, or the sea of humanity.
More pin pointed than that. From the sea of people in the Ten Toes reformed Roman Empire, the EU.
The only thing Daniel tells us here is that there are 4 beasts that arise from the sea.
Actually, the 4 Beasts are quite well defined in the OT. Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. Together Mystery Babylon.
I have heard that the Earth means the land of Israel itself.
A totally foundationless idea.

My gut feeling(and I have nothing to base this on other then this beast does force the worship of Satan and the AC, which is a connection to religion) is that the earth has something to do with what happens on the earth as opposed to heaven and earth.

Sorry, no basis for that.

The Bible gives meaning to the earth and I showed you an example of what someone rising from the earth means in the Bible.

Christ rose from the Pit, also called the grave. Both of which are defined as in the earth.

The OT prophet's spirit rose from the earth.

Hell is in the earth. The Pit is in the earth. OT Paradise is in the earth. The grave is in the earth.

There is no other application for being in the earth. And it clearly says the Second Beast comes from out of the earth.


11Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth.

Not from on the earth, but from within the earth. What alternative is there to being the Pit?

Really, you can show no other possibility as given in the Bible. This is the Beast that comes from the Pit.

[DeeLeeKay]

Actually, the 4 Beasts are quite well defined in the OT. Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. Together Mystery Babylon.


Babylon-Yes/Agreed
Media/Persia/Yes/Agreed
Grecian/Macedonian- Yes/Agreed
Rome-No/Disagree

[CoreIssue]

Rome-No/Disagree

Revelation 17
Five have fallen, one is,

Rome was most assuredly the king who was when John spoke.

Rome split later, thus 2 kings.

Rome broke apart into ten smaller empires when it collapsed. Those are the Ten Toes.

Lay a map of the EU over a map of when Rome broke into the Ten, and you have a match.

The Roman Emporers and the Pope wear the colors and such of the Harlot. Rome is the city on 7 Hills.

Rome, both as Pagan and RCC, slaughtered millions of saints.

It is Rome.

[DeeLeeKay]

I tried everything I could do to make Rome fit historically and biblically. It just does not fit.

[CoreIssue]

I tried everything I could do to make Rome fit historically and biblically. It just does not fit.
DLK, it is the ONLY empire that fits.

Look at the Statue
Babylon (the founder of Mystery Babylon) - 2 kings
Medo-Pesia - 2 kings
Greece - 1 king.
Rome - 2 kings

Here are the 7 kings and dead on with John.

There are 5 empires in the statue. Head of Gold, chest of silver, belly of bronze and hips/legs of iron.

John says one king is. Who was the empire and king of John's time? Rome.

John says 1 is and one will be. That leave 5 kings.

He says the AC will be an 8th king who was of the 5 that were. And etc. leaving on Alexander, the 5th King to fit the bill for the king that was. NO other king fits all of the demands.

John lived during the iron part of the statue. Where the 2 kings are found in Daniel.

Now look at the Beasts
1st Beast - Babylon
2nd Beast - Medo-Persia
3rd Beast - Greece
4th Beast - Rome

The parts of the statue and the beasts are the same.

Now look at the AC beast. His body is a composite of the 4. His body is Mystery Babylon.

7 heads are the 7 kings of the Statue. The one that was, is dead and will be the 8th is the demon of Alexander, since Alexander himself is not coming back.

Ten Crowns. That is the Ten Toes of the Statue. The Roman Empire DID break down into 10 Empires. Which is what Daniel is describing.

The EU is the absolutely the same geographical area of the Ten Toes, the broken up Roman Empire.

It says those Toes will reunite and give their power to the AC.

Look at the Greek Federation. Very much like the EU. Alexander rose to power, united them from a Federation into an Empire and conquered many by peace, which the AC does to open the 70th Week of Daniel and is shown as the king of the horse with a bow without arrows in the First Seal.

The Harlot sits on the Beast. The 7 heads are also 7 hills. Rome is the city of 7 Hills.

Look at the blood on the Harlot. Rome, pagan and RCC have slaughtered milliions of saints.

Look at her colors. The colors of the Roman Emporer, the Roman Pontificus Maximus, the head of the ancient College of Pontifs of Rome, the Pope and or the RCC at Rome.

RCC is apostate Christianity that took over pagan Rome. The AC will return Rome to Pagan emporer worship.

A perfect match.

There absolutely is no other candidate. Babylon, as in Iraq, isn't a candicate. Nothing to do with the Ten Toes. Nothing to do with the Harlot. No 7 kings, no ten crown, no 7 hills, nothing.

There is no other candidate.

And Rome most assuredly fits historically. They envied the Greek Empire and copied it. The king John says who is, at his time, was Rome. Rome did form the Ten Toes, Rome does contain the city Rome, the house of 7 hills. Via the Ten Toes you can see her history all the way into today. They practiced godking worship, which continues to this day in the Pope.

Exactly what do you see they don't fit? I can find nothing that does not point to them.

[DeeLeeKay]

First of all Daniel 8 tells me it is from the 4 divisions from the Macedonian empire that this final beast arises.

Next the original city of Babylon literally sits upon the first 3 beasts. Where does it tells us that this last beast moves the city?

Finally if this last beast is ROME we end up with a 6 headed beast rather then a 7 headed beast.

[CoreIssue]

First of all Daniel 8 tells me it is from the 4 divisions from the Macedonian empire that this final beast arises.
Yes. And Greece was part of the Roman Empire and is a member of the EU.

Thus, absolurely harmony with the 8th King being from Greece out of the Ten Toes.

Next the original city of Babylon literally sits upon the first 3 beasts. Where does it tells us that this last beast moves the city?

The Harlot sits on 7 Hills. The city of Babylon is out of the running immediately.

The Harlot is drunk on the blood of saints she killed. Babylon is gone again.

Mystery Babylon is not the literal city of Babylon. It fits none of the descriptions for it in the Trib.

We are told the 4th Beast breaks into two parts with two kings and later into ten nations and kings.

Rome did that. Babylon did not. Ever.

We are told those ten kings will turn over their rule of their ten nations to the AC. The EU is the geography if the Ten Toes, is a federation, of sorts, and is working to centralize and unite all the countries.

There is no other candidate for the Ten Toes or the prophecies. None.
Finally if this last beast is ROME we end up with a 6 headed beast rather then a 7 headed beast.
No, we don't.

John says 5 kings were, one is and one will be. The will be happened when Rome split in two. The legs of the statue are still iron.

There are 4 segments to the statue. John was during the united hips.

2 kings found in Babylon
2 in Medo-Persia
1 in Greece
2 in Rome (is and will be)

Only 4 beasts. John is during the 4th beast.

Try to make it not Rome, and John's king who is cannot be correct. You cannot have a king outside of the beasts/statue segments.

Try to make it the city of Babylon, and you make the 7 hills and drenched in the blood of saints false.

Not to mention you have left us void of any understand who the king that is could be, since he must be of the iron.

The 4th Beast is not the AC Beast. It must rise from the Ten Toes, which demands the 4th Beast has existed and fallen into Ten. Ten that you cannot find any empire, other than Rome, falling into.

[DeeLeeKay]

There are more cities then Rome which have 7 hills. Jerusalem comes to mind here as well as Istanbul. Futher we are told in Revelation that the "seat of Satan" is in Modern Day Turkey, not Rome.

[DeeLeeKay]

The Macedonian Empire divided into 4 kingdoms. Some of these were part of the Roman Empire, Some was not part of the Empire. The City of Babylon was not part of the Empire at John's time, which disqualifies it as a beast. The Beast empire "was not" in John's time, which again disqualifies it as the 4th beast. Rome is no more, which again disqualifies it.

[DeeLeeKay]

4 beasts were left at the time of Daniel.

5 of the beasts had fallen prior to John.

1
2
3. Neo Babbylonian-1st beast
4. Media/Persian- 2nd beast
5. Greece/Macedonian- 3rd Beast
6. Not a beast but still in power at John's time-The Ptolemy, Grecian and Selucid Empires had already fallen. Which left the Parthinian Empire which was at the time of John.
7. The 4th beast-yet to come with 10 horns, which are 10 kings that come from the East of the Euphrates River, which dries up so they can make war against Jesus.

[Jessie]

There are more cities then Rome which have 7 hills. Jerusalem comes to mind here as well as Istanbul. Futher we are told in Revelation that the "seat of Satan" is in Modern Day Turkey, not Rome.

but they are not drenched in the blood of Gods people.
rome is.

[CoreIssue]

There are more cities then Rome which have 7 hills. Jerusalem comes to mind here as well as Istanbul. Futher we are told in Revelation that the "seat of Satan" is in Modern Day Turkey, not Rome.
Really? I don't see that in Revelation anywhere.

Please post the verse that says that.

Turkey is not anywhere in the Statue or Beasts of Daniel.

What is the one and only city on the face of the earth called the City on 7 Hills that was called that 2,000 years ago, at the time of John? Rome.

[CoreIssue]

4 beasts were left at the time of Daniel.

5 of the beasts had fallen prior to John.

1
2
3. Neo Babbylonian-1st beast
4. Media/Persian- 2nd beast
5. Greece/Macedonian- 3rd Beast
6. Not a beast but still in power at John's time-The Ptolemy, Grecian and Selucid Empires had already fallen. Which left the Parthinian Empire which was at the time of John.
7. The 4th beast-yet to come with 10 horns, which are 10 kings that come from the East of the Euphrates River, which dries up so they can make war against Jesus.
DLK.

It does not say Beasts are kings. Anywhere.

You are talking kings here and trying to reach back to Egypt and such for the first two. Going before the First Beast and the Head of the Statue.

The First Beast listed is Babylon. The head of the statue is Babylon. The first king listed by Daniel is Neb.

You are trying to introduce kingdoms that are never mentioned in the Statue or Beast, anywhere.

Here (http://www.christiantalkzone.com/book/beasts/ETCbeasts_frames.htm) are the 7 kings listed in Daniel.

East of the Euphrates is China. Never in the Statue anywhere.

The AC Beast is a composite, Mystery Babylon, not a new Beast

[CoreIssue]

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeLeeKay http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showthread.php?p=16755#post16755)
There are more cities then Rome which have 7 hills. Jerusalem comes to mind here as well as Istanbul. Futher we are told in Revelation that the "seat of Satan" is in Modern Day Turkey, not Rome.

but they are not drenched in the blood of Gods people.
rome is.

Exactky.

No Empire or city in the history of man comes close to Rome in the killing of saints. None.

The Inquistion, alone, killed over 50 million.

[DeeLeeKay]

Are both you saying that Islam is not drenched in blood of the saints?

[DeeLeeKay]

Rev 2:12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;


Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even]where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

[DeeLeeKay]

Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, [are] four kings, [which] shall arise out of the earth.

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.


Daniel tells us that the 4 beasts are kings and kingdoms.

[CoreIssue]

Are both you saying that Islam is not drenched in blood of the saints?
Not as much as Rome.

You HAVE to stay within the parameters given. You cannot match Istanbul up with either John or Daniel.

The Ten Toes come from the Roman Empire. That is a historical fact Rome broke into Ten. Modern fact the EU and map of Rome, at its final collapse overlay each other.

Fact RCC has preserved the Pagan Roman ways cloaked in Christianity. Fact the colors of the Harlot are the colors of Rome. Fact Rome has been the greatest persecutor of Christians in history, pagan plus RCC.

The Harlot is called the Harlot because it is adulterous Christianity. Islam is not Christian, apostate or otherwise. So it cannot be called Harlot.

You have nothing Biblical to show Istanbul or Islam as the Harlot, the AC Empire or any such thing.

Islam does not have godkings. The AC is a godking. Islam kills anyone who says they are a god.

Isa, in Islamic history and prophecy is not a god. He is a superior prophet only.

The AC sits in the Holy of Holies and declares himself god. No Islamic would conceive of doing such a thing.

The FP sets up and image of the AC in the Holy of Holies and it becomes a place of his worship. Muslims would wipe the Temple off the face of the earth in their beliefs and end time prophecies.

There is no way to get Islam, Istanbul or Turkey into this scenario.

[CoreIssue]

Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, [are] four kings, [which] shall arise out of the earth.

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.


Daniel tells us that the 4 beasts are kings and kingdoms.

And Daniel tells you the first beast king is Neb.

And Daniel specifies 7 kings, as I showed you in the link. John references these 7 kings. And that link shows you each of them Biblically.

You are fogetting in ancient times a kingdom was refered to by its king and a king was the kingdom.

So either there is a contradiction or Daniel meant kingdom in verse 17 and then went on to spell out the 7 kings. Just as nation can be a country or a unique group of people.

Turkey and Istanbul ain't one of the Beasts.

It states the 4th kingdom will break into Ten. It did.

Rome did devour the earth.

John is during the 4th Beast and 6th king. So your logic here is already out the window.

The AC is not the 7th King. All 7 kings are dead by the time he comes around. He is an 8th king who was one of the 7. Specifically the 5th, Alexander the Great, demon of, in the 3rd Beast.

There are 8 kings, but one is seen twice, as the 5th and 8th king.

The AC never rules the whole earth. So you cannot go there with that.

You are not dealing with all said about these beasts.

Yes, the AC beast will break down and tread nations. That is the aspect of the 4th Beast within it. As the 3rd is sleek, fast, uses treaties to conquer, is a slick talker and so on. As the 2nd is hard, stead and strong and as the first is rich, good looking and godly.

[DeeLeeKay]

Some of the things are interpretations that you have given, which I have studied and rejected based on the scripture itself. The bible tells me that there will be 4 kingdoms from the earth. It also tells me that after the 3rd kingdom the beast "is not". This tells me that the beast is not Rome, for when Rome ruled the beast "is not". Therefore Rome can't be the 4th kingdom.

A+B = C. Basic logic, not hard at all.

A-Rome is + B-Beast "is not" = Rome is not beast

[CoreIssue]

Rev 2:12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;


Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even]where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
Revelation tells you Satan will be in the Temple in Jerusalem receiving worship. He is not in Pergamos.

Pergamos was Greek, not Turkish. The AC will be Greek. Which does not mean his capital will be there.

Pergamos was where the main Temple of the Caesar cult was. There is the Roman godking thing again.

Put it the correct historical context and you again see Greece, Rome, godking and all the rest that lines up with Rome and the 8th king.

[CoreIssue]

Some of the things are interpretations that you have given, which I have studied and rejected based on the scripture itself. The bible tells me that there will be 4 kingdoms from the earth. It also tells me that after the 3rd kingdom the beast "is not". This tells me that the beast is not Rome, for when Rome ruled the beast "is not". Therefore Rome can't be the 4th kingdom.

A+B = C. Basic logic, not hard at all.

A-Rome is + B-Beast "is not" = Rome is not beast
There is no logic in that statement at all.

Rome was an extension of Greek culture.

John did not say the 4th Beast was not, he said the 5th King was not, and he wasn't. Any more than the 5th King was part of the 1 or 2 beasts.

It isn't interpretation where I laid out the 7 kings. I gave literal verses deliniating them.

You are just turning a blind eye to them.

And it does not mean 4 kings. It means 4 kingdoms. Using your intepretation then there were already 5 kings down.

And not, before you say beasts, again, John didn't. He said 4 Beasts and 7 kings.

Rome was the 4th Beast. Per prophecy the 4th Beast shattered into Ten.

I see no offering of any other empire, after Greece, that shattered into Ten.

I see no offering of a current 'Ten' alliance that the AC can rise from.

You said he comes from Greece. Greece is in the EU, the Ten Toes Rome crumbled into.

You keep saying what cannot be, but I don't see any offering of what is, other than saying Turkey. You have to deal with the rest of the demands as well, including showing the king that was at the time of John.

Who was that king or kingdom? Sure not Turkey.

[DeeLeeKay]

John did not say the 4th Beast was not, he said the 5th King was not, and he wasn't. Any more than the 5th King was part of the 1 or 2 beasts.


Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, whe


Was = Was past for John
Is Not = Present for John

[DeeLeeKay]

Core,

Turkey/Thrace was from one of the kingdoms that came from the Greek/Macedonian Empire.
This empire broke into four. Alexander's 4 generals took over. Cassander, Lysimachus, Ptolemy, and Seleucus.

Cassander- Greek proper
Lysimachus - Thrace where Satan's seat was at John's time.
Ptolemy - Eqyptian
Seleucus- Middle East/Syrian

[CoreIssue]

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest [b]was, and is not;[/red] and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, whe


Was = Was past for John
Is Not = Present for John
Sigh.

Now you are trying to have it both ways.

The 3rd Beast Kingdom was Greece. Greece, in Daniel, contains only ONE king, Alexander.

So this is the 5th King, not a kingdom.

The Beast here is the First Beast of chapter 13. Not the Forth Beast of Daniel. They are NOT the same.

You are totally ignoring John told you the 6th King was when he lived. The 6th King is of the 4th Beast, as shown in the Statue of Daniel.

John tells you that one head of the 7 heads, the kings of Daniel, is dead and back to life. That is the king who was, is not and will be the 8th.

But all 7 kings have lived and died. All 4 Beasts have lived and died.

The AC Beast is the summation of the 4 that comes before. The 7 kings are those found in Daniel. The description of the First Beasts show it is a composite.

7 kings listed in 4 Beasts in Daniel. All are part of ONE Beast in Revelation.

Daniel shows the Statue ending up as Ten Toes. All Ten toes are shown in the First Beast, as are the 4 Beasts, 7 kings and so on.

This is a composite Beast, not the 4th one. It is not different from the 3 that comes before. It is all the 4 combined into one.

Says it when you read the full passage, instead of the single verse you posted.

9"This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while. 11The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.
12"The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. 13They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast.

All 7 kings from all 4 Beasts, the Ten toes, the 7 Hills of Rome and so on combined into one beast. Not a beast different from the rest, but rest merged.

One king while John was there. Who is it?

You called each king a beast. Well, you have 3 Beasts dead and one at the time of John. You are out of beasts.

What you are saying does not work. You have too many Beasts. You have a Beast that is suppose to be different not being different, but being the 3 merged.

How can the 4th Beast be the AC Beast while Daniel says it will collapse into ten from which the AC will rise? It has to have existed and crumbled into ten already.

What empire other than Rome did that?

I just want to see your answers to the full issues presented. If a legit argument, show me.

If you are going to demand Beast = King you have to be consistant. And 4 Beasts do not add up to 7 kings.

[CoreIssue]

Core,

Turkey/Thrace was from one of the kingdoms that came from the Greek/Macedonian Empire.
This empire broke into four. Alexander's 4 generals took over. Cassander, Lysimachus, Ptolemy, and Seleucus.

Cassander- Greek proper
Lysimachus - Thrace where Satan's seat was at John's time.
Ptolemy - Eqyptian
Seleucus- Middle East/Syrian
Does not work.

John said one of the kings was there wh