Suicide

[CoreIssue]

This is an issue that has come up on the board, locally where I live and various other places with seeming increasing regularity.

Naturally, along with this comes peoples opinions and beliefs regarding this issue.

We see some who are always justifying it and some always condemning it as the cowards way out.

So, where is the truth in these extremes?

I personally see some people become so overwhelmed with physical pain they reach the point they just cannot go on. I see some as being cowards with suicide being the ultimate running away. And those who do so inbetween need to be examined carefully because there can be hidden issues and lies that keep us from knowing the full truth.

It is a sensitive issue that we dare not jump at making wild judgements.

Especially sensitive when you have some Christians believing and declaring anyone who commits suicide is going to Hell. Which is complete non-biblical.

[InTheWind]

My opinion is that God is the only one that knows the heart and the mind set of the person that commits suicide.
Not only is publicly saying someone took the cowardly way out being judgmental but also very insensitive to the feelings of the persons friends and family.

[CoreIssue]

My opinion is that God is the only one that knows the heart and the mind set of the person that commits suicide.
Not only is publicly saying someone took the cowardly way out being judgmental but also very insensitive to the feelings of the persons friends and family.
Which is why one must consider all the facts and issues.

That means even if one knows someone took the cowards way out it usually means keep your mouth shut and keep it to yourself out of respect for those left behind.

As for being judgemental in all cases I have to disagree. There are occurances where we know they took the cowards way out. I know of two within the last 3 months around where I live.

A note that should be remembered here is that I have never really known of a Christian taking the cowards way out.

Those who do not have Christ seem to see life as less valuable and hence if convenient, just end it early. After all, your going to end up there anyway, making all you did one massive exercise in futility anyway.

So, it is never simple.

[InTheWind]

It is a deep subject, take the Japanese suicide pilots, they were`nt cowards.

[InTheWind]

I want to bump this up too make a couple points clear imo.
First there are many reasons i`m sure that bring a person to committing suicide, some good some bad. My main point and problem is when someone automatically jumps to the conclusion that the person was a coward and openly states it in public, very un tasteful and rude imo.
Also, i have to believe there are many Christians that have given up on this earthly body because of suffering from sickness or disease, no one can put a limit on what another person is capable of going through, only God knows what that person feels inside.
I feel it would be better to error in favor of a person with our opinions than to call them a coward and hurt some love ones feelings.

[CoreIssue]

I agree it is a very complex issue. I agree some find themselves in such physical pain going on may prove impossible. I agree just calling one a coward is ill thought out and unwise.

While I don't want to condone just throwing out the coward word, I also don't want to make it sound like thinking about suicide a so-what or no big deal issue.

It is a very serious issue. And needs to be treated as such. Fairly. completely and rationally.

Using it to escape uncomfortable situations is not right or justifiable. If it were there were ther would be a lot more such happenings.

[Sid]

I also don't want to make it sound like thinking about suicide a so-what or no big deal issue.

It is a very serious issue. And needs to be treated as such. Fairly. completely and rationally.

Using it to escape uncomfortable situations is not right or justifiable. If it were there were ther would be a lot more such happenings.


My wife recently had a cousin who committed suicide, suicide is a tragedy for all involved.

I believe that our world is circling the drain, and that suicide will become more common.

Here are a few pertinent facts:



In the interval from 1979 to 1996 there were a total of 535,890 deaths in the U.S.A. that were diagnosed and reported to have been suicides.
Of these suicide victims, 421,991 were boys and men, and 113,899 were girls and women.
There was not one single age group in any year in which boys or men committing suicide did not exceed by far the numbers of girls or women who killed themselves.
The number of male suicide victims rose in virtually every year during the eighteen-year 1979 - 1996 interval, whereas the number of female victims of suicide was generally on the decline in virtually every year.
The number of female suicide victims was considerably lower in 1996 than it was in 1979, in spite of a sizeable increase in the American population during that period. It declined from 6,950 to 5,905 annually. The number of the male suicide victims rose during the same period from 20,256 to 24,998 annually.Youth Suicide and Divorce — Single Parent Homes:
"In a study of 146 adolescent friends of 26 adolescent suicide victims, teens living in single-parent families are not only more likely to commit suicide but also more likely to suffer from psychological disorders, when compared to teens living in intact families."
"Fatherless children are at dramatically greater risk of suicide."
"Three out of four teenage suicides occur in households where a parent has been absent."
"A family structure index - a composite index based on the annual rate of children involved in divorce and the percentage of families with children present that are female-headed - is a strong predictor of suicide among young adult and adolescent white males."
This web page is in memory of the victims of suicide. (http://www.fathersforlife.org/US_suicide_deaths.htm#Introduction)

[CoreIssue]

Agree, Sid.

As people turn to God less, more will seek easier ways out.

I fully recognize there are issues where it is hard to fault suicide. Truly.

But the rates it is happening at far exceed those conditions.

[Jessie]

what about severe emotional pain?

I figured I'm gonna crawl on my hands and knees if I had to to keep going on.
that was when I first got here.

I was so tired of battling emotional pain and all the cultic stuff not knowing how to get out.

[CoreIssue]

what about severe emotional pain?

I figured I'm gonna crawl on my hands and knees if I had to to keep going on.
that was when I first got here.

I was so tired of battling emotional pain and all the cultic stuff not knowing how to get out.
My opinion is emotional pain is extremely tough. Hard as all get out.

But one that should demand confronting and working on. Not running away from.

[Sid]

what about severe emotional pain?

Jessie:

Without getting into details, several times in my life. . . I was in one day at a time mode.


I figured I'm gonna crawl on my hands and knees if I had to to keep going on.
that was when I first got here.

Been there, done that.


I was so tired of battling emotional pain and all the cultic stuff not knowing how to get out.


I really believe that most depression is justified because so much of life sucks.

. . . just keep things in perspective and try to keep a positive perspective and tomorrow will be another day.

[Jessie]

yep, I'm ok, I've just had my moments!

[Jane Doe]

The number of male suicide victims rose in virtually every year during the eighteen-year 1979 - 1996 interval, whereas the number of female victims of suicide was generally on the decline in virtually every year.
The number of female suicide victims was considerably lower in 1996 than it was in 1979, in spite of a sizeable increase in the American population during that period. It declined from 6,950 to 5,905 annually. The number of the male suicide victims rose during the same period from 20,256 to 24,998 annually.Wow, I am shocked by these numbers, and had no idea males were so much more susceptible than females.

wondering why that is...

[CoreIssue]

The answer is simple, Jane.

The male is expected to be the major bread winner. And that job is getting harder and harder.

Good paying jobs are flooding out of the country, actual buying power of a pay check has been in steady decline since 1972.

The trade deficit is constantly hitting new record highs, as are mortgage defaults and bankruptcies. Pensions are being taken away and on and on.

My age group, the 50s, is skyrocketing in high blood pressure, diabetes, heart attacks, strokes and the whole mess.

My group lives in fear of loosing their jobs. The odds of getting another, above grocery bagger level, is very low.

They live in fear of pay and benefit cuts, of increasing expenses while seeing declining income.

Republicans judge everything by the rich man's stock market. Dems live for minorities and environmentalist. The average guy is not visible to either group.

We see illegals getting free medical and all the rest. But we get nothing, cannot afford health insurance and if we have such as diabetes, are not allowed to even buy policies if we could afford it.

Get hurt, and you are in deep trouble.

It use to be disability was for any who qualified who had been paying SSI. Now it is tested, so get disabled and you have to loose everything down to about $3.000 total to get up to max around $1300 a month. Try feeding a family on that.

A white, American citizen male, is pretty much a forgotten and pushed aside person in the US anymore. All the responsibilities are still there, but the opportunities, for the majority, are gone or disappearing.

[CoreIssue]

Answer is simple, Jane.

All the pressures of responsibility are on them, but the opportunities are gone or disappearing.

Illegals get medical and such for free. White guy cannot even buy insurance if he has such as diabetes and so on.

Record high trade deficits tell you where the skilled jobs are going. Record high defaults and bancrupcies come from declining paychecks and job offerings.

The average Joe's buying power was at its last high in 1972. Been declining ever since.

Over 40 and loose a job? Good luck finding a new one above bag boy level.

Get disabled? Now you have to loose everything down to $3,000, approx., while having paid SSI a minimum of quarters to hope for a max of around $1,400 a month in disability (that includes wife's wages and property)

The pressures are so high, if you notice, the group second to the 80 and 90 year olds dropping dead are the 50s.

They are not old enough to have been able to set aside for retirement and too old to be wanted or start over again.

Pensions disappearing left and right as well. That has hit a lot of people I know.

Rep. sacrifice the Middle Class for the incomes of the rich. Dems for the welfare of the lazy and illegal. Thus the Middle Class is rapidly disappearing. At an all time low as a percentage of population.

So, the answer is, males have all the responsibilities they ever have, been are incredibly squeezed in trying to meet them. Squeezed way to hard now.

[a.baker]

I can't believe someone would describe suicide as the cowards way out, how cold.

But anyways suicide to me is murder according to God because how can you be in self defense from yourself? You can't. Maybe thats why when it comes to pain and suffering we have so many who stuck through it and didn't commit suicide in the bible for examples to look to, like Job.

I think murder, abortion and suicide fit the same boat. But the thing with killing yourself there would never be a way to say your sorry or ask for forgiveness. How could God forgive someone if they knew what they were doing was wrong and was saying sorry before they did the act and never been able to do anything else about it and left it at that?

Like what was said, is only God knows their heart, but I can't see a Christian committing suicide not only because they have life and something to live for, but because of faith and trust in our Lord.

See people that commit suicide are in so much torment that they figure nothing could be worse. But Christians have the knowledge that there is something worse on the other side, more worse than any earthly torment so therefore because Christians believe in Jesus they believe in this and therefore no matter how bad they want to commit suicide they won't be able to bring themselves to it. They know how bad the pit is without knowing.

To me suicide would be a breaking of a commandment you could never move forward on.

[a.baker]

I am not saying someone would automatically go to hell; I don't know what would happen. I have never been there myself thinking about suicide but I can imagine. I am on the outside trying to look in to understand. But I think its something we will never understand unless or until we are there.

[InTheWind]

I will never say someone took the cowards way out, too many variables, a person you've`e known all your life as a Christian could get a brain tumor and go nuts and kill himself.
I think the only person that knows if they sinned is the person that commits suicide at the moment of death. Other than that I will have compassion and understanding about my view on the matter.

[Jessie]

you know a lot of bad teaching, corrupt people, people teaching traditions of man for commandments of God using that as slight of hand stuff, has tormented many I think. thank the Lord He is gracious and that we are NOT saved by works.

some are in such pain. our medicine has prolonged much of this I think living longer than one maybe should. eaten with cancers and such.

again, thank the Lord we are saved by grace, not works.
what a relief.

I read the other day of a man back in oh gosh, like the cesears days,
they made him miserable, beatings ect. but would'nt let him die.
until the stench of gangrene was smelled by the ruler.
such cruelty. some have a stronger consitution than others too to keep going.

[a.baker]

You know Jessie what you said about medicine I totally agree with you and that rises another question. Just because we have medicine that would make you better or surgeries do you have to take the medicine? Would it be considered suicide if you let things run the course instead of taking the medicine? Example a diabetic decides he doesn't want to take his insulin any more and he knows he will die if he doesn't and decides to let things just go.

Another question. God gives us much. Would He look down on us if we decided to not take it and it end our life? Is that suicide? This could be other things beside medicine or care (which many things are not curable) like food.

Also what if we took everything we had food and water included and gave it to those in need and picked up ourselves to follow Jesus til our end what would God think? Not trying to take anything out of context or twist anything from the bible.

[a.baker]

Hmm let me rephrase that but say the same thing. If a doctor says you need a transplant or you will die and the person refuses the transplant, is that suicide? We are all going to die some day and that person didn't purposefully make his heart sick and he decided to let things run their course.

[InTheWind]

I will never say someone took the cowards way out, too many variables, a person you've`e known all your life as a Christian could get a brain tumor and go nuts and kill himself.
I think the only person that knows if they sinned is the person that commits suicide at the moment of death. Other than that I will have compassion and understanding about my view on the matter.


And what if you stepped in front of a bullet to save someones life.
It`s an unanswerable topic imo, that`s why my opinion is to be very understanding to those that lose someone from suicide.

[a.baker]

Yup I don't believe we know the answer but it is a matter of God to decide according to the persons heart. I believe in most cases we should be understanding towards the person that passed away and always understanding to the family and friends remaining.

I knew this guy from back in the day that was an addict of heroin (just someone I knew of). He had a pastor form childhood and he ended up getting away from the drug all together with the help of the pastor. Well a year had passed of a clean slate for him and it was his birthday and he decided he was going to take heroin again to celebrate. The same amount he used to when he was addicted.

He was alone and the amount killed him, the girl of his child or children I believe, is the one that found him. He was only 23 or 24. In that case you feel very sorry for the family but its kinda hard to feel bad for the guy who did it. You think "why did he do it", "he had won the hardest part of the battle and probably knew the amount was not safe".

When you see this in a family as a cycle you realize the love of family was never there from beginning. So when others show they love they disregard or brush it off because they never knew it so therefore don't and never have loved themselves. So in a way it is very hard and you can't blame someone from never being loved but yet they knew what they were doing.

We have been told that we only love because God loved first. God loves all no matter who. But if a person has gone on in their whole life without ever feeling loved even though people have tried, they are dead and kinda miss a conscience and just do things without thinking or caring. That is sad! Some people it seems nothing can get through, maybe because they choose not let it get through because when you start to love you start to hurt.

That is exactly what my old friend Elly is doing. One day she might kill herself if she doesn't let someone in to help her out. Sh has been lucky numerous of times.

In my CNA class I took 3 years ago they taught us there are 5 stages a person goes through as they are dying. I believe there are the same stages a person goes through as someone they love is dying or has already died.

[kay-gee]

I think the worst is jumping in front of a subway. Used to happen in Toronto on a fairly frequent basis. Of course the announcer would never say what the problem was, just that the train was experiencing delays. I wonder what would make people commit suicide in such a public way, knowing they are gong to affect so many others. There are much better ways of doing it.

all the best...