Question on Matthew

[Jane Doe]

MATTHEW
51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

_______________________


Within the previous passage who are those people coming out of their graves/tombs and I checked different versions of the Bible it says they were raised to life. I’m wondering if this means into flesh- or spiritual?
Who ?

[CTZonEdit]

Something key to think about in answering this is how many times does the bible say a man is destined to die?

[Jane Doe]

"Something key to think about in answering this is how many times does the bible say a man is destined to die"


Id like to say once, but thats on logic. im not sure

[CTZonEdit]

Once is correct, so if these people were actually raised from the dead then they would have to die again, violating the biblical decree of dieing only once.

The same thing applies to the story of Lazarus and Jesus "raising" him from the dead. He also would have died again and violated the decree.

So were these people and Lazarus really dead is the next question.

[Jessie]

now I'm totatly confused. does'nt it say that Jesus raised the dead?

although he would have to die twice though...

[Jessie]

In John 12 It says lazarus was dead.

[Jessie]

Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
Hebrews 9:26-28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=9&verse=26&end_verse=28&version=31&context=context) (in Context)

perhaps this puts it more in persepective?
man is "destined" to die once, but does that leave out those like lazarus who
scripture says was raised from the dead,
so could "destined" be like saying man is going to die, after death the judgement?

how would we negate the fact scriputure says he was dead?

[CoreIssue]

In John 12 It says lazarus was dead.
Which definition of death?

A doctor can bring one back from bodily death, when the body stops functioning, but cannot bring one back from absolute death, when the spirit leaves.

Jesus said Lazarus slept. He disagreed with those who said he as 'dead,' as in the spirit leaving.

[TLIR]

What about the widows son he raised from the dead?
What about the the young girl he raised from the dead.
What about the child Elijah raised from the dead?
What about the solder that was thrown into Elijah's tomb and came back to life?
I believe they were all dead and were raised from the dead along with Lazurus.
You seem to be saying Lazurus wasn't dead, Jesus himself said Lazrus was dead.
(John 11:14 NIV) So then he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead,

Peter raised a woman from the dead.
Paul raised a young man from the dead, and Paul himself was possibly brought back to life after being stoned.
I don't think you can apply the scripture that speaks of man being appointed once to die, to a miraculous resurrection. It doesn't fit.

[CoreIssue]

What about the widows son he raised from the dead?
What about the the young girl he raised from the dead.
What about the child Elijah raised from the dead?
What about the solder that was thrown into Elijah's tomb and came back to life?
I believe they were all dead and were raised from the dead along with Lazurus.
You seem to be saying Lazurus wasn't dead, Jesus himself said Lazrus was dead.
(John 11:14 NIV) So then he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead,

Peter raised a woman from the dead.
Paul raised a young man from the dead, and Paul himself was possibly brought back to life after being stoned.
I don't think you can apply the scripture that speaks of man being appointed once to die, to a miraculous resurrection. It doesn't fit.
Raised from the dead is different from resurrected. The Bible is clear that so far Christ is the first and only resurrected from death.

Notice that no one raised from the dead was done so a long period of time after death. None.

A doctor can raise the dead. Is that a miracle or does it show that death is not the immediate thing many believe it is? Or that first the body stops functioning and later the spirit leaves, at which point the body cannot be restored to life.

You seem to be saying Lazurus wasn't dead, Jesus himself said Lazrus was dead.
(John 11:14 NIV) So then he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead,

Read the whole context.


11After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up."
12His disciples replied, "Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better." 13Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. 14So then he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead, 15and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him."
Christ never said, ooops, I am wrong. He changed his word from sleep to death because the Apostles were confused. But he most assuredly stated first Lazarus was asleep.
Strong's Number: 2837 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/browse.cgi?number=2837&version=kjv)Original WordWord Originkoimavwfrom (2749 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2749&version=kjv))Transliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2837&version=kjv#Legend) EntryKoimaoNonePhonetic SpellingParts of Speechkoy-mah'-o http://bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=2837g) Verb Definition

to cause to sleep, put to sleep
metaph.
to still, calm, quiet
to fall asleep, to sleep
to die

The he said dead.
Strong's Number: 599 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/browse.cgi?number=599&version=kjv)Original WordWord Originajpoqnhv/skwfrom (575 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=575&version=kjv)) and (2348 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2348&version=kjv))Transliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=599&version=kjv#Legend) EntryApothnesko3:7,312Phonetic SpellingParts of Speechap-oth-nace'-ko http://bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=0599g) Verb Definition

to die
of the natural death of man
of the violent death of man or animals
to perish by means of something
of trees which dry up, of seeds which rot when planted
of eternal death, to be subject to eternal misery in hell

When a doctor revives a dead person they are still in the body and often feel they were asleep. And they dream.

As posted by Jessie a person is to die once, not twice.

And Christ is the first of the resurrection from the dead.

How do we reconcile Lazarus being raised from the dead with a person only dying once without recognizing that true death is not until the spirit leaves tghe body?

If the spirit leaves and then returns that is resurrection. But only Christ has been resurrected.

There is a distinction between natural death and clinical death. So there is a distinction between natural death and final death in the Bible. There has to be or the Bible lies.
I don't think you can apply the scripture that speaks of man being appointed once to die, to a miraculous resurrection. It doesn't fit.
Actually I can. Because the Bible is very clear Christ is the First Born, First Resurrected, from the dead. And the rest of us must wait until a future time.

To have Lazarus resurrected makes Christ being first a lie. Plain and simple.

[TLIR]

So you think that Lazarus and the OT saints that were raised were just sleeping.
Lazarus slept for 4 solid days and they buried him while he was sleeping?
Besides that, people back then were more acquainted with death than most city people today. They knew when rigamortise set in that the person was certainly dead. If he had been in a coma? Rigamortise wouldn't have set in and his eye balls wouldn't have wrinkled up. Those are two signs a person has been dead a few hours.

[TLIR]

Raised from the dead is different from resurrected. The Bible is clear that so far Christ is the first and only resurrected from death.

Notice that no one raised from the dead was done so a long period of time after death. None.

Well here we have Lazarus being raised after four days. The OT saints could have been thousands of years dead.

A doctor can raise the dead. Is that a miracle or does it show that death is not the immediate thing many believe it is? Or that first the body stops functioning and later the spirit leaves, at which point the body cannot be restored to life.

I don't think you will ever find a doctor that can raise a person from the dead that has been dead for more than a few minutes. Lazarus was dead four days. He wasn't sleeping or in a coma, he was dead, stiff as a board and starting to rot.

Read the whole context.

Christ never said, ooops, I am wrong. He changed his word from sleep to death because the Apostles were confused. But he most assuredly stated first Lazarus was asleep.

Paul said many had fallen asleep
(1 Cor 11:30 NIV) ... and a number of you have fallen asleep.
The term shows that the christian never dies but is a live and with the Lord.
He meant dead when he said Lazurus was asleep but the disciples did not understand the term so he told them plainly "he is dead."
It isn't the first time a disciple didn't get it.


The he said dead.

When a doctor revives a dead person they are still in the body and often feel they were asleep. And they dream.

That is true and many are leaving the body and going down a long white corridor or tunnel.


As posted by Jessie a person is to die once, not twice.


And the blind don't see and the deaf don't hear and the lame don't walk and lepers are not cleansed unless the normal state of events are altered by a miracle. Being raised from the dead is a miracle.


And Christ is the first of the resurrection from the dead.

How do we reconcile Lazarus being raised from the dead with a person only dying once without recognizing that true death is not until the spirit leaves tghe body?

If the spirit leaves and then returns that is resurrection. But only Christ has been resurrected.


He was raised with a healed body not a glorified body would be my guess. The OT saints that were raised from the dead may have had a healed body also, not glorified bodies. Christ is the first from the dead with a glorified body. But we can't say people were not raised from the dead. The scriptures plainly say people were raised from the dead and went on to live normal lives just like people were healed and went on to live normal lives.



There is a distinction between natural death and clinical death. So there is a distinction between natural death and final death in the Bible. There has to be or the Bible lies.

Yep, it called the second death.


Actually I can. Because the Bible is very clear Christ is the First Born, First Resurrected, from the dead. And the rest of us must wait until a future time.


We must wait for our glorified bodies yes. But if by a miracle we are raised from the dead then we get to live a little longer.
I don't want anyone raising me from the dead when I die, so keep your hands off.



To have Lazarus resurrected makes Christ being first a lie. Plain and simple.
[/QUOTE]
I would have to say raised from the dead and resurrected are two different things although the terms are sometimes used alternately.
Oh, and it is possible the clouds that recieved Christ as he ascended were the OT saints recieving thier glorified bodies. I wonder if Lazarus was there with them?
The OT saints I heard once, were the first fruit offerings of the ressurection to come
They were that which the first fruit wave offering represents in the feast of the Lord. Just like the other feast and celebrations were shadows of realities to come.

Anyway, going to work for the first time since vacation. You all have a nice day.

God bless you today,

Arthur, TLIR

[InTheWind]

Is not this a true statement?


Question: What happened to Lazarus after he was raised from the dead (John 11:43-44)?

Answer: When Lazarus was brought back from the dead, he was restored to life but didn't receive a glorified resurrection body. Since Jesus was the first fruits from the dead (1 Cor. 15:20), He was the first to receive a glorified resurrection body. Therefore, Lazarus was raised in his natural body, which died again some time after he was raised.

We don't hear any more about Lazarus after he was raised because there wasn't anything noteworthy that needed to be recorded. The focus of the gospels is on the life of Christ, and Jesus did many things which weren't recorded. "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books which were written" (John 21:25).
http://www.fellowshiponline.org/biblestudies/lazarus.htm

[CoreIssue]

So you think that Lazarus and the OT saints that were raised were just sleeping.
Lazarus slept for 4 solid days and they buried him while he was sleeping?
Besides that, people back then were more acquainted with death than most city people today. They knew when rigamortise set in that the person was certainly dead. If he had been in a coma? Rigamortise wouldn't have set in and his eye balls wouldn't have wrinkled up. Those are two signs a person has been dead a few hours.
Not sleeping in the context of physical sleep. But their spirits slept in their bodies.

Of course his body died. But his spirit had not left.

Reviving a body from which the spirit has not left is not resurrection. Only Christ has been resurrected. It is resusitation.

Repairing the body or not allowing it to decay is a miracle, but it is not 'death,' as in once to die spirit leaving the body death.

[CoreIssue]

Question: What happened to Lazarus after he was raised from the dead (John 11:43-44)?

Answer: When Lazarus was brought back from the dead, he was restored to life but didn't receive a glorified resurrection body. Since Jesus was the first fruits from the dead (1 Cor. 15:20), He was the first to receive a glorified resurrection body. Therefore, Lazarus was raised in his natural body, which died again some time after he was raised.

Key is did the spirit leave the body. For Lazarus and them it did not, thus it was not final death.

There are a number of people who have died physically multiple times and have been brought back, but until the spirit leaves they have not died yet Biblically speaking.

We die the final physical death, where the spirit leaves, once, and once only.

Christ indeed is the First Fruits of the dead. Only Christ.

Those of the First Resurrection return to their natural bodies and then are glorified. Those of the Second Resurrection return to the natural bodies and then are judged and cast into the Lake.

Key, again, is the spirit leaving the body.

[CoreIssue]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreIssue
Raised from the dead is different from resurrected. The Bible is clear that so far Christ is the first and only resurrected from death.

Notice that no one raised from the dead was done so a long period of time after death. None.


Well here we have Lazarus being raised after four days. The OT saints could have been thousands of years dead.
No. Friends and family in Jerusalem knew them. They were recent dead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoreIssue
A doctor can raise the dead. Is that a miracle or does it show that death is not the immediate thing many believe it is? Or that first the body stops functioning and later the spirit leaves, at which point the body cannot be restored to life.


I don't think you will ever find a doctor that can raise a person from the dead that has been dead for more than a few minutes. Lazarus was dead four days. He wasn't sleeping or in a coma, he was dead, stiff as a board and starting to rot.
It is the principle of the issue.

It shows that because the body stops functioning the spirit has not left thus they can be resusitated.

Once to die. Only Christ has been resurrected.

Christ's spirit left his body. Thus he died once. And thus he was resurrected, not resusitated.
Quote:


Originally Posted by CoreIssue
Read the whole context.

Christ never said, ooops, I am wrong. He changed his word from sleep to death because the Apostles were confused. But he most assuredly stated first Lazarus was asleep.


Paul said many had fallen asleep
(1 Cor 11:30 NIV) ... and a number of you have fallen asleep.
The term shows that the christian never dies but is a live and with the Lord.
The term is referring to the flesh, not the spirit, in this verse.
He meant dead when he said Lazurus was asleep but the disciples did not understand the term so he told them plainly "he is dead."
It isn't the first time a disciple didn't get it.
Agree on the disciples mssing a lot of points.

But disagree on the rest. He was saying the flesh was dead but the spirit was asleep in the flesh.
I believe you are missing the point in the opposite direction the disciples did. They saw only natural sleep and you are seeing only final death.
Compare to here. It is the same thing said as was said of Lazarus.
Matthew 9
23When Jesus entered the ruler's house and saw the flute players and the noisy crowd, 24he said, "Go away. The girl is not dead but asleep." But they laughed at him. 25After the crowd had been put outside, he went in and took the girl by the hand, and she got up.
Sleep means final death in some applications and just sleep in others.
With Lazarus and the girl, in example, Christ said sleep, as in sleeping.
But with those in 1 Cor he meant dead, as in spirit left the body.

Christ says he woke her from sleep, not death. Christ said Lazarus slept.
Their spirits were asleep in their dead flesh, thus they had not experienced true death.
Once to die. Only Christ resurrected to date.
You have to reconcile all the Biblical issues. You cannot just say exception to the rule without evidence backing such.
Sleep is said in both these cases for a reason.
Quote:

Originally Posted by CoreIssue
The he said dead.

When a doctor revives a dead person they are still in the body and often feel they were asleep. And they dream.


That is true and many are leaving the body and going down a long white corridor or tunnel.

Which is caused by the dream like state created when the brain is shutting down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreIssue
As posted by Jessie a person is to die once, not twice.



And the blind don't see and the deaf don't hear and the lame don't walk and lepers are not cleansed unless the normal state of events are altered by a miracle. Being raised from the dead is a miracle.

But they are not resurrected, which is what you are saying, happened to them. And that they died the final death, thus died once.
Only Christ has been resurrected. We die once and once only. Thus they did not experience the One Death, the true death of our being, where our spirits leave.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreIssue

And Christ is the first of the resurrection from the dead.

How do we reconcile Lazarus being raised from the dead with a person only dying once without recognizing that true death is not until the spirit leaves tghe body?

If the spirit leaves and then returns that is resurrection. But only Christ has been resurrected.



He was raised with a healed body not a glorified body would be my guess. The OT saints that were raised from the dead may have had a healed body also, not glorified bodies. Christ is the first from the dead with a glorified body. But we can't say people were not raised from the dead. The scriptures plainly say people were raised from the dead and went on to live normal lives just like people were healed and went on to live normal lives.
Those in the Second Resurrection are raised from the dead and not glorified.
Resurrection is only used for those who spirits left their body and then return. They experienced the One Death.
Raised from the dead, as with Lazarus and the girl is not resurrection. Christ said they slept, were not truly dead.
If they were truly dead, as in the spirits leaving, then all of them experienced Two Deaths, not One. And the Bible says One Death only.
You are not answering the issue of One Death and then Judgement.
And the argument that not being glorified, as Christ was, means it was not resurrection is false. Those of the Second Resurrection ar not glorified but they most assuredly are resurrected. And they only experiece the One Death of the flesh.
Quote:

Originally Posted by CoreIssue

There is a distinction between natural death and clinical death. So there is a distinction between natural death and final death in the Bible. There has to be or the Bible lies.


Yep, it called the second death.
False. The Second Death is not physical, it is spiritual.
So a totally off topic issue.
Quote:

Originally Posted by CoreIssue
Actually I can. Because the Bible is very clear Christ is the First Born, First Resurrected, from the dead. And the rest of us must wait until a future time.



We must wait for our glorified bodies yes. But if by a miracle we are raised from the dead then we get to live a little longer.
I don't want anyone raising me from the dead when I die, so keep your hands off.
Those raised from the dead, as with Lazarus and the girl, did not experience the One Death. No one dies twice then faces judgement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreIssue

To have Lazarus resurrected makes Christ being first a lie. Plain and simple.


I would have to say raised from the dead and resurrected are two different things although the terms are sometimes used alternately.[/QUOTE]
Resurrection is never used to refer to such as Lazarus or the girl.
Oh, and it is possible the clouds that recieved Christ as he ascended were the OT saints recieving thier glorified bodies.
No. He disappeared into the clouds.
And no, the OT saints have not received glorified bodies. No one recieves glorified bodies until the First Resurrection that does nto start until the Rapture, where the dead in Christ rise first, enter their earthly bodies, then with the living saints rise to Christ in the clouds, and then go to Heaven where they are glorified.
I wonder if Lazarus was there with them?
Only if he had died.
Otherwise he became Church.
The OT saints I heard once, were the first fruit offerings of the ressurection to come
They were that which the first fruit wave offering represents in the feast of the Lord. Just like the other feast and celebrations were shadows of realities to come.
I have heard such, but it isn't Biblical.
Nor were they the first saints. From Adam until Moses were also saints.
All the saints, OT and NT, will resurrect at the Rapture. Church and the Guests.
Doctrines like that are attempts to have only the Church in the Rapture.
Other such doctrines are the 24 Elders are Church and the Four Living Creatures are the Gospel. Both totally unbiblically and, to be truthful, the Four as Gospels totally absurd.

Anyway, going to work for the first time since vacation. You all have a nice day.

God bless you today,
Get back in the swing of things. Later, Bro.

[Jessie]

I've gotta go with TLIR on this and ITW on this.

too what about those who go in the rapture? thats not death.

I guess I dont see where scripture says "it is appointed for man to die once"
the way you are.

it almost sounds like "soul sleep" (kindof) that you are speaking about.

we will know for sure when we pass thru to heaven.
how it all works. I sure dont want to "sleep" in a body I consider dead for any period of time!

why would Jesus say plainly that lazarus was "dead"?

I have noticed he did say sleep and dead. for me I dont see any inbetween
only black and white. one or the other.

could someone find the greek or hebrew for that passage and see what it says?
(whichever it was origanally written in)

[CoreIssue]

I've gotta go with TLIR on this and ITW on this.

too what about those who go in the rapture? thats not death.

But the dead risings at the Rapture is resurrection, and they do not die again.

But having Lazarus and the girl in true final death and coming back means they die twice.

So much for the verse saying we die once and then judgement comes.

Or Christ being the first resurrected. Lazarus and all those others preceeded him.

It cannot mean the same thing. And there is no exception clause there.

Plus Christ said they were not dead, but asleep. That is the explanation which is trying to be explained away here.
I guess I dont see where scripture says "it is appointed for man to die once"
the way you are.
The how are you seeing it? What does it mean if it has another meaning?

It is not talking spiritual death. For which the innocent never die spiritually and the damned die twice, so it cannot be spiritual death.
it almost sounds like "soul sleep" (kindof) that you are speaking about.
No. Soul sleep is the doctrine all dead sleep until they are resurrected at either the Rapture or White Throne.
we will know for sure when we pass thru to heaven how it works.
We know now because Christ spoke of spirits awake in Paradise. We see a spirit awake in the OT. Christ preached to spirits in the Pit and led them to Heaven. We see spirits in Heaven during the Trib.
I sure dont want to "sleep" in a body I consider dead for any period of time!
Impossible. Look at all the bodies that were torn apart by wild animals and fish, those that rotted and blew away on the face of the earth. Bodies that worms eat and carried away.

A non-starter doctrine.
why would Jesus say plainly that lazarus was "dead"?
He also said he slept.

The flesh was dead but the spirit was asleep within the body. So, the spirit had not left.

Same with the girl.

Think about it. That means true death had not occured so while the body died 'Lazarus' in the flesh had not. He was still there.
I have noticed he did say sleep and dead. for me I dont see any inbetween
only black and white. one or the other.
Dead in the Greek means dead. Sleep means both dead and asleep.

So the issue is contained within the definition and the full context of what Christ said. Lazarus and the girl were dead (physically), but at the same time were asleep.

The only way that works is for the flesh to be dead but the spirit asleep still in the body.

There is no other way to be in harmony with One Death and Christ being the first resurrected.
could someone find the greek or hebrew for that passage and see what it says?
(whichever it was origanally written in)
I already posted the definitions.

These issues all have to harmonize. One cannot say God simply made an exception to all these cases. Which would demand every person brought back by a doctor or other also experience Two Deaths.

[CoreIssue]

OK, guys. If you are going to go the route they were dead like everyone else who died is you are going to have to give a reconciliation of Die Once only and Christ being the First Resurrected from the dead.

The position you are taking makes these Biblical teaching erroneous.

And don't forget the doctors and the dead.

[Jessie]

But the dead risings at the Rapture is resurrection, and they do not die again.

But having Lazarus and the girl in true final death and coming back means they die twice.

So much for the verse saying we die once and then judgement comes.

Or Christ being the first resurrected. Lazarus and all those others preceeded him.

It cannot mean the same thing. And there is no exception clause there.

Plus Christ said they were not dead, but asleep. That is the explanation which is trying to be explained away here.

The how are you seeing it? What does it mean if it has another meaning?

It is not talking spiritual death. For which the innocent never die spiritually and the damned die twice, so it cannot be spiritual death.

No. Soul sleep is the doctrine all dead sleep until they are resurrected at either the Rapture or White Throne.

We know now because Christ spoke of spirits awake in Paradise. We see a spirit awake in the OT. Christ preached to spirits in the Pit and led them to Heaven. We see spirits in Heaven during the Trib.

Impossible. Look at all the bodies that were torn apart by wild animals and fish, those that rotted and blew away on the face of the earth. Bodies that worms eat and carried away.

A non-starter doctrine.

He also said he slept.

The flesh was dead but the spirit was asleep within the body. So, the spirit had not left.

Same with the girl.

Think about it. That means true death had not occured so while the body died 'Lazarus' in the flesh had not. He was still there.

Dead in the Greek means dead. Sleep means both dead and asleep.

So the issue is contained within the definition and the full context of what Christ said. Lazarus and the girl were dead (physically), but at the same time were asleep.

The only way that works is for the flesh to be dead but the spirit asleep still in the body.

There is no other way to be in harmony with One Death and Christ being the first resurrected.

I already posted the definitions.

These issues all have to harmonize. One cannot say God simply made an exception to all these cases. Which would demand every person brought back by a doctor or other also experience Two Deaths.

on the rapture I meant like us, we would go, but not die first.
I'm not understanding how long would one sleep before their spirit goes
on to be with the Lord?

I guess I always took "sleep" to be a nice word for death at times.
but of course I cant assume. It means what God intended it to mean. not whatever I want it to mean.

I did'nt get the non starter doctrine :scratch:
it was just how I feel, God makes the decision.
but I did'nt understand what you meant by what you said concerning it.

This subject is new to me. so I'm having to walk thru this for the first time.
its confusing. :scratch:

[InTheWind]

There is no other way to be in harmony with One Death and Christ being the first resurrected.


I have no problem with what Core is saying, They were dead but their spirit had not left the body and Christ healed them. :nod:
Who could say that if God wanted to make it happen for His purpose their spirits may have left and put back, isn`t Enoch being held alive somewhere in the flesh and will be brought back to the earth.

[CoreIssue]

I have no problem with what Core is saying, They were dead but their spirit had not left the body and Christ healed them. :nod:
Who could say that if God wanted to make it happen for His purpose their spirits may have left and put back, isn`t Enoch being held alive somewhere in the flesh and will be brought back to the earth.
There is no restriction on how many times a body can be healed in the Bible.

But there is a restriction on how many times one can die (spirit leaving the body). That being once.

The Bible says to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord. These people woke up from sleep, thus were not with the Lord.

And Enoch and Elijah have been alive in the flesh for thousands of years in Heaven. So God has stopped their aging process.

But indeed, since they are not Church and not of the time of the Rapture, they will both died once, but not until the Trib.

God is faithful to his word.

And, in a sense, the Rapture of the living is a kind of physical death. The sin nature of the flesh dies.

[Brandli5]

Not to get of subject or anything, but why were those to put in heaven without death? I do not remember that.

[CoreIssue]

on the rapture I meant like us, we would go, but not die first.
OK. Sounded like you were dividing the living from the dead at first.

I'm not understanding how long would one sleep before their spirit goes
on to be with the Lord?

Without God's intervention it varies with conditions.

For some it is immediate if the physical damage in excessive. For normal death I believe it is up to around 20 minutes, when brain cell damage becomes excessive, but could be wrong. And for those in cold water, it can be a lot longer.

Remember, just because the persons stops breathing does not mean their bodies are actually dead. It takes time for the individual cells to die, which is true physical death.

And God can intervene and stop cellular decay or restore it.

Our common looking at death is the body stopping functioning and the spirit leaving. Which is not an immediate thing. And not instant upon stoppage of breathing and heart function.
I guess I always took "sleep" to be a nice word for death at times.
It is a bit more complex. But at times is indeed used as a polite substitute.
but of course I cant assume. It means what God intended it to mean. not whatever I want it to mean.
Gets a bit complicated when we are looking at it in Hebrew, Greek and English.
I did'nt get the non starter doctrine :scratch:
A doctrine is a non starter when the Bible makes it so plainly obvious it cannnot be. Like Soul Sleep and Universal Salvation, in example.
it was just how I feel, God makes the decision.
but I did'nt understand what you meant by what you said concerning it.
You mean regarding bodies being totally destroyed?

Soul sleep says we are in our bodies in our graves until resurrection. Many bodies were never in a grave and many have been totally destroyed and dispersed over vast areas. Meaning there is no body to be sleeping in. Or grave.


This subject is new to me. so I'm having to walk thru this for the first time.
its confusing. :scratch:

Many just take their doctrinal positions for granted here. Or their understanding.

But as with many things, they prove to me more complicated or not as clear as they assume.

[CoreIssue]

Not to get of subject or anything, but why were those to put in heaven without death? I do not remember that.
Enoch and Elijah were taken to Heaven to currently be the Two Olive Trees before the Throne of God.

In the Trib they will be the Two Witnesses and Two Lampstands to Israel.

That requires them to be human earthly flesh.

[Jessie]

now I get it. I dont like "death" (I think you know that LOL)
this was a hard one for me to understand.

now in death, would that person be sleeping? unconscious?
before they went to be with the Lord?

[Jessie]

I have no problem with what Core is saying, They were dead but their spirit had not left the body and Christ healed them. :nod:
Who could say that if God wanted to make it happen for His purpose their spirits may have left and put back, isn`t Enoch being held alive somewhere in the flesh and will be brought back to the earth.

this helped me understand! :nod:

[TLIR]

OK. Sounded like you were dividing the living from the dead at first.

Without God's intervention it varies with conditions.

For some it is immediate if the physical damage in excessive. For normal death I believe it is up to around 20 minutes, when brain cell damage becomes excessive, but could be wrong. And for those in cold water, it can be a lot longer.

Remember, just because the persons stops breathing does not mean their bodies are actually dead. It takes time for the individual cells to die, which is true physical death.


Well, even if that were true, although I think that as soon as someone dies their spirit and soul begin to leave the body but even if you are right Lazarus was dead for four days, the womans son was being buried he was probably dead for at least two days.
Surely Lazarus's spirit was not hanging around for four days or even an hour.

[Jessie]

these are the points that have bothered me.

[CoreIssue]

Well, even if that were true, although I think that as soon as someone dies their spirit and soul begin to leave the body but even if you are right Lazarus was dead for four days, the womans son was being buried he was probably dead for at least two days.
Surely Lazarus's spirit was not hanging around for four days or even an hour.
That is an assumption. Nothing in the Bible supports that. And medical science disagrees.

Begins to leave? Really, either it is there or it isn't.

Christ said they slept. We have to go by what we are told, not what we assume.

And we are told we die once, not twice or more. And that Christ is the first resurrected, which is raising from the dead, but clearly including the spirit returning to the flesh.

We have to harmonize all we are told. That means we have to harmonize dead/sleeping and Die Once and Christ being the First Resurrected and all Man, saint and lost, having a totally future resurrection.

The spirit does not have to have a nice clean fully healthy body to be in if God desires they wait. And they wait by sleepiing, as in the spirit being unaware.

The second you have the spirit leaving with Lazarus, the girl, dead doctors raise to life and so on you have a contradiction, not harmony.

[CoreIssue]

now I get it. I dont like "death" (I think you know that LOL)
this was a hard one for me to understand.

now in death, would that person be sleeping? unconscious?
before they went to be with the Lord?
That is up to God.

If he has set firm rules for when the spirit leaves, then they would sleep because they are still connected to the flesh as a total entity. And with part of that entity totally non-functional they would 'shut down.'

Otherwise, when God says leave they leave.

But none remain in the flesh, as in the Soul Sleep doctrine, until the resurrection.

Also remember, with many into Soul Sleep, the Soul is part of the flesh. So when the flesh dies the Soul died and has to be recreated or reformed to function.

[CoreIssue]

these are the points that have bothered me.
Well, those are points from our fleshly viewpoint.

From a viewpoint of the spirit there is no issue or problem.

True death is when we cease to be a total being, as in flesh and spirit. When the spirit disconnects from the flesh and leaves.

[CoreIssue]

Just thinking a good point here is to ask if any of you have seen a body kept alive on machines where the brain is dead and to disconnect the machines shuts down the body?

I have.

They do not look alive. They look empty.

But even then, the body can function if the machines take over the brain;s autonomic functions. And when the machines shut down they do not shut down instantly. But in a sequence over time.

And even then for awhile the body can be reconnected to the machine and made to function again.

We have to keep the issues straight. And those issues are flesh, spirit and the union of the two. Three issues sometime working together and sometimes not.

[Jessie]

so some would shut down, bit by bit, like what you just said,
and because everyone is different, they may take more or less time than others?

that was a good analogy, and I have never seen anyone kept like that.

would their spirit still be there when the brain is dead? and a machine is keeping them breathing?

[CoreIssue]

so some would shut down, bit by bit, like what you just said,
and because everyone is different, they may take more or less time than others?

that was a good analogy, and I have never seen anyone kept like that.

would their spirit still be there when the brain is dead? and a machine is keeping them breathing?
No. They look and feel empty.

Just a shell. And it feels wrong.

[Jessie]

so they are not there is that what you are saying?

[CoreIssue]

so they are not there is that what you are saying?
Exactly.

You can remove the head and connect the rest to machines and it will breath, have a heart beat.

[Jessie]

would their spirit still be in their body? or moved onto where they are going?

[CoreIssue]

would their spirit still be in their body? or moved onto where they are going?
Gone. Moved on.

But in the unique cases of Lazarus, the girl and such, God put them to sleep instead of letting them move on, as normally would have happened.

God intervened in the normal order of things here. That intervention would not violate the other rules God had laid down, as in One Death and Christ the First Resurrected.

That only leaves God kept the spirits in the body and made them sleep.

How else could God not violate what he has laid down as truth and yet still cause Lazarus, the girl and the others to happen?

And how could doctors raise people back to life if when the body stopped functioning the spirits instantly left?

Clearly, death is a process, not a instantaneous event. And God can intervene in how that process transpires, time and otherwise, without violating his laid down truths.

[Jessie]

ok, now what about those who go in the rapture, they havent died.
how does this work?

[CoreIssue]

ok, now what about those who go in the rapture, they havent died.
how does this work?
That is not completely true.

Yes, the living Church goes.

But as well the dead Church, OT Israel, Gentile and all other OT dead saints go as well.

What happens is:

Christ returns into the clouds with the spirits of the dead saints. They are ALL in Chirst. Don't bite on the doctrine only the Church is in Christ.
The spirits come down to the earth.
Their bodies are resurrected to earthly flesh.
They enter their bodies.
So now they have died once and are resurrected once.
All saints, both living Church and resurrected saints, all of them, ascend to the clouds where Christ is.
All go the the Father's House for the Wedding Supper.
All receive glorified bodies and their rewards.
The Wedding Supper lasts the full 7 years of the Trib. That is why you only see the 24 Elders of the OT before the Father's Throne, being the Throne of God.
Church is the Bride.
OT Israel is the Wife of the Father.
Non-Church saints from the OT and NT are guests. And yes, there are saints after Christ that were not Church. Such as saved Chinese, American Indians and so on.The phase of the First Resurrection, which is the full Day of the Lord, is the Two Witnesses at Mid.

Then next phase is the Trib Saints at the Second Coming. Not OT Israel. Clearly states Trib Saints.

Then there are the saints of the MK, which is unclear if they resurrect as they die or if they are part of the next Thief in the Night event Rapture at the end of time when the last of the living saints are removed and the Heavens and the Earth are destroyed.

Following this is the Second Resurrection. Here the damned from all times from Adam to the end of the earth are resurrected into their flesh and cast into the Lake for Eternity.

No one dies twice physically.

Some never die spiritually; the innocent. Some dies once spiritually; those who become saints. Some die twice; the eternally damned.

Death in the Bible is not as simple an issue as many think.

[Jessie]

ok, so would the one living that go into the rapture when they come back
with Jesus have flesh again? so they shed their bodys here when the Lord took them in the rapture?

I dont know the scriptures for that...
but again, I dont know I got that right.

also, the non church saints. why would'nt they be church in NT times?

boy oh boy is this getting in depth for me.

[CoreIssue]

ok, so would the one living that go into the rapture when they come back
with Jesus have flesh again?
The dead come back with Christ as spirits who enter their flesh at the Rapture. Then they rise with then living flesh who are living on the earth.

The Church living on the earth at the time of the Rapture do not shed their flesh. They never exist as just spirits.

The earthly flesh of all who do in the Rapture is changed. No one gets rid of the old flesh and takes on new flesh. The old flesh is changed.

Christ is in the flesh he had on the cross. But the flesh has been changed. Been glorified.
so they shed their bodys here when the Lord took them in the rapture?
No one sheds their flesh in the Rapture.
I dont know the scriptures for that...
but again, I dont know I got that right.
Sorry. You don't have it right.

The dead reenter their flesh. That is resurrection.

Then they and the living Church are taken to Christ is the clouds. That is Rapture.

Rapture is not resurrection. Resurrection is not Rapture. They are two things that happen together. Followed by glorification and the Wedding Supper.
also, the non church saints. why would'nt they be church in NT times?
No. They were under the Law of Conscience because they had never heard of Mosaic Law, Christ, the NT, Apostles or any such thing.

As with the OT saints they Apostles witnessed to they the Holy Spirit does not enter until they hear of and accept Christ.

Christ preached to the OT saints in Paradise, they accepted and then they received the Holy Spirit. But that did not make them Church either.

All saints of all times are in Christ. Romans 8 tells us all are conformed to Christ, but that does not make them Church.
boy oh boy is this getting in depth for me.
Takes time.