Preincarnate Christ?

[CoreIssue]

Did Christ, the Son of God, actually exist in fact before the incarnation? Or did he exist in promise?

[Jessie]

in promise,

he had'nt come yet. he was the 2nd person of the trinity only before that.

[TLIR]

I see the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Bible says he does not change.
If the Son is not preincarnate? Then God has changed.
I have thought about your stance on this and while I can't argue the point with you I have to say there is something about it that does not sit well.
(1 John 5:20 NASB) And we know that the Son of God has come, ...This is the true God and eternal life.

He has come. Not came to exist. He was before he came and he is now and forever more the same.
That is probably going to be about the best I can do. I just can't get my head around this statement that the Son did not exist always in eternity.
Truely God has a nature that is to great for me to explain and to deep for me to understand.

[CoreIssue]

I see the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Bible says he does not change.
If the Son is not preincarnate? Then God has changed.
I have thought about your stance on this and while I can't argue the point with you I have to say there is something about it that does not sit well.
(1 John 5:20 NASB) And we know that the Son of God has come, ...This is the true God and eternal life.

He has come. Not came to exist. He was before he came and he is now and forever more the same.
That is probably going to be about the best I can do. I just can't get my head around this statement that the Son did not exist always in eternity.
Truely God has a nature that is to great for me to explain and to deep for me to understand.
You are missing the point, TLIR. Completely.

In his Godhood the Second Person has never been inferior to the Second or Third Person. Never. He did not have flesh in the OT. He was not the Son of the Father ever in his Godhood. He has never changed in his Godhood.

God, the Triune Godhead has never changed. Added roles of Father and Son do not change God. They simple show a change in how God deals with Man.

Christ is not a name of God. Jesus is not a name of God. Jesus Christ is a human being who has a spirit that is God.

The flesh of Christ is PURELY human. Not God. And is what is Jesus Christ. The spirit of Jesus Christ is fully God. Never changed and never become human.

But ones mind is the meeting ground and merging of flesh and spirit. So the mind of Jesus Christ is both God and human.

That is why and how Jesus Christ is fully God, fully man and fully both. And how God did not change in taking on flesh and how the flesh did not exist Preincarnate.

Sonship means being Fathered by someone else. You position has the Second Person lessened and coming from the First Person. Meaning the First and Third Persons are eternal without beginning but the Second has a beginning.

The Second Person is eternal God fathered by no one. Christ is flesh created by the First Person/Father that the Second Person entered to become Jesus Christ.

That does not diminish him as God. It adds the diminision of being human.

You position makes him eternal human, which is less than God. Or give God divine flesh from the beginning.

I am trying to show why God did not change while God took on flesh. Still eternal God unchanged but also now human.

[CoreIssue]

1 John 5:20
20We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.



Strong's Number: 2240 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/browse.cgi?number=2240&version=kjv) Original WordWord Originh&kwa primary verbTransliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2240&version=kjv#Legend) EntryHeko2:926,306Phonetic SpellingParts of Speechhay'-ko http://bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=2240g) Verb Definition
to have come, have arrived, be present
metaph.
to come to one, i.e. to seek an intimacy with one, become his follower: to come upon one (unexpectedly)
to come upon one, of things endured

It does not say the Pre-incarnate Jesus Christ has come.

To come does not mean move from one place to another as another word for come in the Greek does when speaking of the Bride coming at the Second Coming. It simply means arrival.

God taking on flesh at the incarnation is arrival. It is God taking on flesh and arriving as Jesus Christ.

Here is the eternal Logos that became flesh.

John 1:1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

Not Jesus, not Christ and nothing human about. God with God being God equally. Eternal God without beginning.

All things were made by and for this personage of God.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
And he became flesh when be took up life on this earth. Not before.
14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%201&version=31#fen-NIV-26049d)] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Clearly says the Word was God and at the incarnation became flesh.

This clearly denies a Pre-Incarnate Christ.

To see the divinity in Chnst is to see the Father because they are the same divinity. But the flesh is not and never will be divine.

We are connected to Christ by his humanity, not his divinity. We are saved by his human sacrifice on the cross. God did not die on the cross.

Jesus is the divine beginningless God in the undivine flesh with beginning of Christ.

Do you realize when you put Jesus Christ as eternal you have declared eternal flesh? So either the whole Godhead has flesh or the three are not the same within the Godhead? One is inferior?

[TLIR]

The way you say it, this is the picture I get in my mind.
The Father, The Second person, (who ever that is?) the Holy Spirit, and then there is the flesh (the Son) off to the side somewhere.
I'm not sure that this is what you are saying? But this is the picture I see from the way I perceive what you are saying.

[CoreIssue]

The way you say it, this is the picture I get in my mind.
The Father, The Second person, (who ever that is?) the Holy Spirit, and then there is the flesh (the Son) off to the side somewhere.
I'm not sure that this is what you are saying? But this is the picture I see from the way I perceive what you are saying.
Let us back this up.

Describe God to me in the OT. Is he spirit? How many personages? Is there flesh?

[TLIR]

In the OT I see God, I see him with a body and I see the Holy Spirit.

[CoreIssue]

In the OT I see God, I see him with a body and I see the Holy Spirit.
So you only see one person God with the OT talking about his flesh in one way and his spirit in another?

You do not see 3 distinct persons composing a unity of one singular Godhead?

Something like one person with the Bible referring to his flesh, mind and spirit as being the Trinity?

[TLIR]

In the OT I see the triune nature of God but that is because of the NT revelation of him. If I didn’t have that NT revelation, then the triune nature of God in the OT would be obscure and hidden; but it is there.
As in the first 3 verses of Genesis.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, (here is the Word of God) "Let there be light," and there was light.

Here is the Father, the Spirit and the Word.
But as to his body? Well he had one before his birth. He walked in the Garden with Adam and Eve.
He walked with Enoch.
He talked with Noah, whether it was a physical appearance with Noah is not stated.
He Appeared to Abraham and Jacob. These appearances were in a body and in these last days he has appeared to us as his Son. I don’t see much difference in the 2nd person Jehovah and the second person Jesus except that of his physical birth so he could die and be raised. I’m told that the name Jesus means Jehovah saves, which would make perfect since to me because God has been revealing his nature through his names from the beginning.
The OT is obscure in the revelation of God’s nature. Possibly because it is fallen man’s view of God and the NT view is from mans perspective after being born again or reconciled to God.
I see Jehovah coming to man and making these covenants sealed with blood. The blood of animals that represented the blood he was going to shed on the cross.

[CoreIssue]

In the OT I see the triune nature of God but that is because of the NT revelation of him. If I didn’t have that NT revelation, then the triune nature of God in the OT would be obscure and hidden; but it is there.
Not true. The Bible makes it quite clear there was an understanding of God's Triune nature back then.
As in the first 3 verses of Genesis.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, (here is the Word of God) "Let there be light," and there was light.

It is far from being vague and obscure in the OT.

Look at the meaning of the word God in these verses.

Strong's Number: 0430 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/browse.cgi?number=430&version=kjv)Original WordWord Origin~yhlaplural of (0433 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=433&version=kjv))Transliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0430&version=kjv#Legend) Entry'elohiymTWOT - 93cPhonetic SpellingParts of Speechel-o-heem' http://bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=0430h) Noun Masculine Definition

(plural)
rulers, judges
divine ones
angels
gods
(plural intensive - singular meaning)

god, goddess
godlike one
works or special possessions of God
the (true) God
God


It is a uniplural meaning 3 or more in a Unity of One.

The Shama of Israel literally said, "The Lord or Gods is one God. They complete understood the uniplurality of the Godhead even.

And it is not Triune nature of God. But Triune composition of God.
Here is the Father, the Spirit and the Word.
No. There is not the Father. That role did not exist yet.
But as to his body? Well he had one before his birth. He walked in the Garden with Adam and Eve.
No. He did not walk in flesh in the Garden. He appeared AS flesh but was not flesh.

Angels also appeared in the OT and were called "men" because they appeared as if having flesh.

Was Satan an actual flesh snake appearing in the Garden? No.
He walked with Enoch.
He talked with Noah, whether it was a physical appearance with Noah is not stated.
Physical appearance does not mean flesh.
He Appeared to Abraham and Jacob. These appearances were in a body and in these last days he has appeared to us as his Son.
No where does it ever say in the flesh in the OT. Never.

This strips Christ of his humanity because he was not born of woman by this thinking. Yet we are told he would be born of woman in the OT and was born of woman in the NT. Which denies any prexistant flesh.

And all 3 persons of God appeared to Abraham. Thus the Holy Spirit is flesh as well and his flesh indwells us?

The Holy Spirit also appeared as a dove. So he is a physical bird?

The Second Person appeared as fire and wind.

Presents a major problem to your thinking when you look at all the ways God has appeared.

No. The Father and Holy Spirit do not have flesh. Before the incarnation neither did the Second Person.

And they are 3 distinct persons in a unity of God. Not 3 natures of a singular person God.
I don’t see much difference in the 2nd person Jehovah and the second person Jesus except that of his physical birth so he could die and be raised.
So he was flesh, cast aside his divine flesh and took on human flesh? Talk about changing God!
I’m told that the name Jesus means Jehovah saves, which would make perfect since to me because God has been revealing his nature through his names from the beginning.
And there were many men named Jesus. It is a human name. Not a divine one. Never mentioned about being with God before the incarnation.

And Christ is a purely human role. God could never be the Messiah as God. Yet you have Christ existing before Mary as well.

And you are back to saying nature and not personage.
The OT is obscure in the revelation of God’s nature. Possibly because it is fallen man’s view of God and the NT view is from mans perspective after being born again or reconciled to God.
Again, not nearly as obscure as you think. The Shama declares a knowledge of Trinity. Abraham having zero issues with the full 3 persons of the Trinity appearing to him before even the OT was written says there was more understanding than you are believing.
I see Jehovah coming to man and making these covenants sealed with blood. The blood of animals that represented the blood he was going to shed on the cross.
But there was a lot more knowledge about God than you are seeing in the OT.

Elohim as a uniplural means 3 or more persons in a unity of one. Not one person with 3 natures. Not one person manifesting themselves in 3 ways.

And there was no flesh before the incarnation. I showed you in John 1 that the Word did not take on flesh until Mary.


John 4:24
24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."


Finally, Jesus Christ is a created being per the Bible. God is beginningless. Another problem with this thinking.

[TLIR]

Perhaps you can tell me, if Jesus is not pre-existant.
Where is he now?
What is he now?
How do you see God?
How does this created being that never existed before fit into God.

[CoreIssue]

Perhaps you can tell me, if Jesus is not pre-existant.
Where is he now?
What is he now?
How do you see God?
How does this created being that never existed before fit into God.
As God he sits at the right hand of the Father on the Throne of God. He never lost his divinity.

When functioning as a high priest, a man, he stands before the Father's Throne as our advocate.

God is three divine spirit personages, total separate from each other, of identically the same nature, functioning as in a singular unity called God. Thus to refer to one is to refer to all and to refer to all is to refer to one.

That is why in Theology they are called the First, Second and Third Personages of God,

The Second Person of God did not cease to be God nor did he change when he took on humanity. He added human flesh via the incarnation to become human. His spirit, which is God, did not change in any way.

Thus fully God in the spirit, fully man in the flesh and fully both in the mind.

You must remember human flesh does not possess individuality, personality or any such thing. It has a nature that impacts the mind and is what a spirit lives in and functions through. But it is not the personality or any such thing.

When a human dies their flesh perishes. But their spirit, personality and such goe on because the flesh is a vessel, not the essence of them.

So, the Second Person added human nature to his divine nature. And when on the earth set aside his divine powers and such to the level of his spirit functioning as a man.

His flesh died because it was fully human. His spirit was treated a human one because he had set aside his divinity to that extent.

He is without beginning because of his divine spirit, but a creation because of his flesh.

He is eternal God because of his spirit. He is our king, savior, brother and Second Adam because of his flesh.

There is not a person Christ and and person God in him. There is one person Christ who is each and both at that same time.

He is Jesus Christ because of his flesh. Until he took on flesh there was no Jesus Christ. Only the promise of him.

But Jesus Christ is also eternal God because of his spirit. Yet that identity was not gained until the incarnation.

His Sonship is because of his flesh.

Look at yourself. Take away your flesh and you remain, but you do not remain in fullness because you were meant to have flesh.

God is not flesh. But to be the Savior he had to be man. Jesus Christ is God and man natures together.

Christ's flesh is not and never will be divine. There never was such a thing as divine flesh.

Christ's spirit is not and never will be human. The flesh did not comingle with the divinity to take on divinity.

[TLIR]

Where is the Jehovah that walked and talked with Adam and Eve, Enoch, Abraham and Jacob?
I see the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.

[CoreIssue]

Where is the Jehovah that walked and talked with Adam and Eve, Enoch, Abraham and Jacob?
I see the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.
Jehovah is a title of the Godhead. It is not a name of a singular being God.

When speaking of Adam it says Lord God. Not just Jehovah. So, we are not told if all 3 appeared to Adam or if just the Second Person appeared to Adam on behalf of the Godhead.

All 3 appeared to Abraham at one time and at other times only the Second Person.

Point is that per the meaning of Elohim (God), if all 3 appear God is there and if only 1 appears God is there. To speak of one is to speak of all and to speak of all is to speak of one.

It is in inseparable unity.

The Father is a role only the First Person took on. To speak of the Father is not to speak of the Son or Holy Spirit. And likewise for each distinct role take on.

You do not see Father and Son/Jesus in the OT. You are reading in those names and roles. You do see Holy Spirit because that role was taken on from the beginning.

But even note here the role of Holy Spirit as Comforter and indwelling spirit was not taken on until the resurrection of Christ. So even with the Holy Spirit there was role change.

There is not one mention of God of the Father or God the Son in any appearance, role or action in the OT. All such mentions are prophetic.

God does not change. But how he deals with Man does. What roles he acts in does. Incarnation in the flesh did not change the Second Person God or the Godhead.

You have to understand the differences between God as personage, divine nature, human nature and roles.

If you change jobs you do not change as a being.

When single you are TLIR. Then you marry and unite as one flesh with your wife but you remain TLIR. Just TLIR "expanded."

Now add a kid and you expand again to now being "father." You began as TLIR then added the role and nature of marriage and then father. But the baseline TLIR is still TLIR.

Observer closely how the names, titles and such are used in the Bible. Singular roles are never applied to the Godhead. The Godhead is never applied to singular personages of the Godhead or their roles.

Show me any instance in the OT where Father, Son, Jesus or any such NT role is every used to refer to God.

[CoreIssue]

An added thought here.

Jesus Christ is our brother because he is born of the lineage of the First Adam. As this allows him to be our savior as well.

He is King because he is born of the lineage of David per the David Covenant.

He is also called a son of Abraham, David, Mary and so on.

Now how could be be all these things if Jesus Christ preexisted Mary? They require human lineage.

Put it another way. If Jesus is purely God then he has no human in him.