Non Pre-Trib Rapture Doctrines

[CoreIssue]

I have long wondered why so many go to such lengths to try to justify Church in the Trib.

It does not make sense.

They have to redefine words in such as Revelation 3:10, overlook or invent convoluted doctrines to escape the 24 Elders at the First Seal, try to work around the 70th Week of Daniel to Israel being the Trib and so much more.

Why? I don't get it.

[Jessie]

would it be possible to make a outline of why the church will not go thru the trib?

what they are missing and such (those that think the church will go thru the trib)

I know it would be helpful to me in talking to my family.

[Chrystalwuzhere]

This may make no sense to anyone else, but as for myself, before I started studying the Word of God for myself, I thought about all the views. I wondered if it would be pre, mid, post, pre-wrath, a-millenial...and to be truthful, even being biblically illiterate, I still came to the belief it was pre-trib for one very good reason... I pondered on it and thought, "The Trib. period is when God is fed up...and He's gonna pour out His wrath on this earth... those who rejected Him and lived lawlessly... "

Then I got to thinking...wait, those judgments are intended for those who rejected Him...the church doesn't reject Him. We look to Him. We aren't appointed to wrath. Punishment. Then it hit me! He will NOT pour out His wrath upon the body of His Beloved Son (the church). Not gonna happen.

I've been pre-trib ever since. When I started studying scripture, it was confirmed.

[CoreIssue]

Probably the best way to deal with Jessie's request is to just post stuff as found and comes to mind.

Another day for me since that requires focus and not feeling the best right now.

But look at Revelation 3, especially verse 10. Testing. What is to test in the Church? We are not going to be divided between God and Satan. There is nothing to test.

Only those who believe in the ability to loose salvation can begin to see anything but Pre-Trib.

[vagabond]

I agree that God's people won't suffer the "wrath" to come, because they will be sealed in Christ, they will have entered into the rest, and even if they are physically on earth they won't be harmed by the events. What greater glory for God? To have his people at complete peace and contentment in such a time of trouble.

God is able to deliver us both "from" trouble and "in" trouble.
Daniel was safe "in" the lions den,
The Hebrew children were safe "in" the fiery furnace,
Jonah was safe "in" the belly of a fish,
The children of Israel were safe "in" Egypt when the wrath was poured out,
They were sealed "in" their homes by the blood of the lamb when the messenger of death came,
God is greatly glorified because he is able to keep his people from harm even "in" the worst of conditions,
I see God's people being "caught up" spiritually, having their minds quickened so that they can communicate with the heavenly hosts fluently. Being transformed into their heavenly bodies in the sight of all people, not unlike Jesus on the mount of transformation.
We are to prepare ourselves for this event by "entering into the rest" while it is Today, and not waiting for our flight to be in winter (great tribulation). Trusting in the Lord who is able to deliver us, rejoicing in tribulation and giving praise to God in all things.
If I'm wrong what will I have lost?
I will have trusted in the Lord,
I will have rejoiced in the time of tribulation,
and I will have given thanks in all things, knowing that God is in control.
If I'm correct, but have not labored to enter into the rest, even more as I see the day approaching, then where will I be when the time of great trouble arrives?
Jacob received his new name in the middle of his time of trouble, I see that we will receive our new name also.
Being wrong as a post- tribber seems much less dangerous then being wrong and unprepared as a pre-tribber. If we think that we will escape, will we labor to enter into the rest (ark)?
Noah worked to build the ark, we are to labor to enter into the rest, which is the sabbath day, which is the "last" day, which is the rest!

[CoreIssue]

I agree that God's people won't suffer the "wrath" to come, because they will be sealed in Christ, they will have entered into the rest, and even if they are physically on earth they won't be harmed by the events. What greater glory for God? To have his people at complete peace and contentment in such a time of trouble.
Completely non Biblical. Your assumptions are in contradiction to what is said.
God is able to deliver us both "from" trouble and "in" trouble.
Yes, God is able. But neither apply as implied. We will be out of/from the whole earth. Not there to need protecting.

Daniel was safe "in" the lions den,
The Hebrew children were safe "in" the fiery furnace,
Jonah was safe "in" the belly of a fish,
The children of Israel were safe "in" Egypt when the wrath was poured out,
They were sealed "in" their homes by the blood of the lamb when the messenger of death came,

Absolutely not related. Complete different issues and no application to the Trib for the Church.
God is greatly glorified because he is able to keep his people from harm even "in" the worst of conditions,
Moot here.
I see God's people being "caught up" spiritually,
Resurrected and raptured. Caught up spiritually is totally non Biblical.
having their minds quickened so that they can communicate with the heavenly hosts fluently.
Not in the Bible.
Being transformed into their heavenly bodies in the sight of all people, not unlike Jesus on the mount of transformation.
Hmmm. Our glorified bodies are not Heavenly bodies. They are glorified flesh that will have home on the New Earth.
We are to prepare ourselves for this event by "entering into the rest" while it is Today, and not waiting for our flight to be in winter (great tribulation). Trusting in the Lord who is able to deliver us, rejoicing in tribulation and giving praise to God in all things.

Completely meaningless statement Biblically speaking. Not a clue what you are saying.
If I'm wrong what will I have lost?
Not if you have repented by faith through grace in the Biblical Christ.
I will have trusted in the Lord,
If the true Lord, good.

Many cults claim to trust in the Lord. Problem is they don't have the Biblical Lord.
I will have rejoiced in the time of tribulation,
Cults claim this.
and I will have given thanks in all things, knowing that God is in control.
Again, cults claim this as well.

The key is having the true God.
If I'm correct, but have not labored to enter into the rest, even more as I see the day approaching, then where will I be when the time of great trouble arrives?
Rewards come from labor. Salvation and the promise of Rapture do not.
Jacob received his new name in the middle of his time of trouble, I see that we will receive our new name also.
Saints long dead will also receive new names.
Being wrong as a post-tribber seems much less dangerous then being wrong and unprepared as a pre-tribber.
Being a Post-Tribber and working to earn escape is a fool's game. Pay attention to the Bible.

Rev 3:10 says we will not be here. The 24 Elders prove we will not by being at the First Seal glorified.
If we think that we will escape, will we labor to enter into the rest (ark)?
Working to earn escape is a fool's game. That means one is not working for love of God but love of self.

As a Pre-Tribber we work to gather in the last of the Gentiles before the Rapture. We work for them, not ourselves.

Noah worked to build the ark, we are to labor to enter into the rest, which is the sabbath day, which is the "last" day, which is the rest!

Noah obeyed God.

Noah was taken out of the place of God's wrath, being the surface of the earth.

Noah did not go in and through the place of wrath. He was gone.

As Lot was out of Sodom when the wrath struck.

Both models God uses to teach us says the saints are physically removed from the place of wrath and then the wrath strikes.

There is no Sabbath Day in the Church.

[CoreIssue]

I forgot something important.

Your arguments totally avoided the actual prophecies dealing the Trib and Rapture.

You avoided Revelation 3:10, the 24 Elders, the fact the Trib is the 70th Week of Daniel, meaning Israel and not Church and much more.

One cannot argue a prophetic postition without actually dealing the the direct prophecies.

There is nothing Church in any Trib prophecy anywhere.

[InTheWind]

Good thought about Noah, they were lifted off the face of the earth and everything on the earth was killed.

Edited to remove the comment about the animals, was one of those statements that only made sense to me at the time.

[vagabond]

Hi Core, one thing we do agree on is God's people will be raptured before the "great tribulation", God's people will be caught up above it, and God's people will not suffer the "wrath" to come, so that's a good thing, I guess.

Here are a couple of verses that concern me:

Jesus said, "pray that your flight be not in winter", and, "woe to those who give suck in them days". Winter, to me speaks two things, Geat tribulation and rest, both happening at the same time. Years ago, before modern conveniences, winter was something to respect, if one hadn't prepared oneself for it they would suffer and possibly perish. They needed ample supply of wood, food and shelter. If they had prepared properly, they could rest by the fireplace reading a book and enjoying a hot drink. Trees, the ground, many plants, bears and many other animals enter into a complete rest during winter.

So, I see that we must find our source of strength now, as Paul explained in Hebrews 4:1) Let us fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. :11) Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of disobedience.

It seems to me that we are to be labouring Today to find an escape from the great tribulation, that's just the way I see it. Noah heard and obeyed God in building the ark, Paul in Heb. 3) said, "Today if you will hear his voice", in chapter four he warns more about entering into the rest, in chapter 5 he speaks of "no longer giving suck", in Chapter 6 he urges us to move on unto perfection, leaving the principle teachings and not laying again the foundations.

If the Noah in the ark is type of the "rapture", then shouldn't we also prepare an ark, Noah laboured to enter in, we are told to labour to enter in, and here's the beauty of it: As soon as Noah entered into the ark the flood came, as soon as God's people have entered into the rest.....

I have no desire to argue against your doctrines, but to urge that there may be more for us to seek, something may be left undone and it is to be done by us, not "waiting" to be caught away, but "pressing on" to be caught away.

Abraham was spared the "wrath" and remained in the high place, Lot had to be dragged out and refused to go to the high place, and soon perished.

[InTheWind]

Vagabon, one thing that bothers me about those that believe in something other than a pre-trib rapture.
They assume that just because a person is pre-trib that they are not prepared to go through hard times.
Everyone that i know that is pre-trib reads the same verses as you about how God will see us through tribulations in our lives and we believe that.
I think that reasoning is just another way to put down pre-trib belevers and feel like they are more ready for hard times.
Many people in the world are going through tribulations right now that are just as bad as those to come, being killed is being killed, whether now or in the tribulation, and as Christians they are dying in faith or surviving in faith.
This has been going on for ever, the Blessed hope is that some day before the seven year tribulation period, different from the trials and tribulation now, those that believe as Noah will be taken off the earth where it is safe. :nod:

[CoreIssue]

Hey vagabond,


Hi Core, one thing we do agree on is God's people will be raptured before the "great tribulation", God's people will be caught up above it, and God's people will not suffer the "wrath" to come, so that's a good thing, I guess.

Now you confused me. Above you said:
Being wrong as a post- tribber seems much less dangerous then being wrong and unprepared as a pre-tribber.
So, you are not a Postie?
Here are a couple of verses that concern me:

Jesus said, "pray that your flight be not in winter", and, "woe to those who give suck in them days". Winter, to me speaks two things, Geat tribulation and rest, both happening at the same time. Years ago, before modern conveniences, winter was something to respect, if one hadn't prepared oneself for it they would suffer and possibly perish. They needed ample supply of wood, food and shelter. If they had prepared properly, they could rest by the fireplace reading a book and enjoying a hot drink. Trees, the ground, many plants, bears and many other animals enter into a complete rest during winter.
This is addressed to Israel. Not Gentiles and definitely not Church.

It so applied in 70 AD and the Woman, Israel, takes flight at Mid Trib.

And no, Biblically speaking Winter does not mean Great Trib. The worst nasty winters I went through growing up on a farm in Nothern Indiana and taking care of animals is a cake walk to the Trib.

NOTHING this earth has faced to date compares with the scale of the Trib. Nothing.

There is no preparing to survive though the Trib on a physical scale. Anyone, and there are Posties who do so, thinks they can create a place of safey to escape are not reading the Bible.

Revelation 3:10 states if falls on EVERY person on the earth.
So, I see that we must find our source of strength now, as Paul explained in Hebrews 4:1) Let us fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. :11) Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of disobedience.
I have no idea how you are interpreting entering God's rest here. But I have a feeling it is not what the Bible says.
It seems to me that we are to be labouring Today to find an escape from the great tribulation, that's just the way I see it.
Then you see it wrong.

No one earns escape.

We earn rewards, not salvation, resurrection, Rapture or any of those. They are gifts, nor earnings.
Noah heard and obeyed God in building the ark, Paul in Heb. 3) said, "Today if you will hear his voice", in chapter four he warns more about entering into the rest, in chapter 5 he speaks of "no longer giving suck", in Chapter 6 he urges us to move on unto perfection, leaving the principle teachings and not laying again the foundations.
This is about sanctification. Not escaping the Trib.
If the Noah in the ark is type of the "rapture", then shouldn't we also prepare an ark, Noah laboured to enter in, we are told to labour to enter in, and here's the beauty of it: As soon as Noah entered into the ark the flood came, as soon as God's people have entered into the rest.....
You cannot earn the Rapture.

Yes, we prepare our Ark in a figurative sense by simply being born-again. Nothing more required.

You keep trying to attach works to salvation and such. Cannot do.
I have no desire to argue against your doctrines, but to urge that there may be more for us to seek, something may be left undone and it is to be done by us, not "waiting" to be caught away, but "pressing on" to be caught away.
And where did you ever get the totally false idea we are sitting around waiting to be Raptured?

If so this board would not exist to try to correct false, doctrine, to get people to Christ, to get people out of cults.

This is the time of the completion of the Gentiles. The time of the last membership of the 6th church, the Rapture Church. And we are trying here and elsewhere to increase that church's membership.

You are so caught up in your doctrine you are warning us about doing something we are not doing. Sitting on our butts just waiting.

Abraham was spared the "wrath" and remained in the high place, Lot had to be dragged out and refused to go to the high place, and soon perished.

What are you talking about?

Lot did not perish.

What wrath are you talking about for Abraham?

Here you go again painting and defining things in the Bible in ways that have no correlation to facts.

And in the Rapture we are "dragged out." Rapture means snatched away by force.

[CoreIssue]

Vagabon, one thing that bothers me about those that believe in something other than a pre-trib rapture.
They assume that just because a person is pre-trib that they are not prepared to go through hard times.
Everyone that i know that is pre-trib reads the same verses as you about how God will see us through tribulations in our lives and we believe that.
I think that reasoning is just another way to put down pre-trib belevers and feel like they are more ready for hard times.
Many people in the world are going through tribulations right now that are just as bad as those to come, being killed is being killed, whether now or in the tribulation, and as Christians they are dying in faith or surviving in faith.
This has been going on for ever, the Blessed hope is that some day before the seven year tribulation period, different from the trials and tribulation now, those that believe as Noah will be taken off the earth where it is safe. :nod:

Amen.

I will add here the 6th church is the church at the time of the Rapture.

It is a church of little strength. The church at the time of the Great Apostacy. Far from the strongest Christians who ever lived at any given time.

Yet Posties and such try to build it up as them being the elite Chrisitans who will take on Satan in the Trib and such.

Even given the Church won't be here God says in Daniel the Trib Saints are handed over to Satan and will be slaughtered. So much for your safety and rest.

Why are they handed over? Because Pre-Trib when times were softer they denied God, were not saved and were often the false Christians of the 7th church.

Now they are back under Law and not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Now they have to endure to the end.

[vagabond]

Quote:

Hi Core,

I said:
Abraham was spared the "wrath" and remained in the high place, Lot had to be dragged out and refused to go to the high place, and soon perished.

you asked:
What are you talking about?

Lot did not perish.

What wrath are you talking about for Abraham?

Here you go again painting and defining things in the Bible in ways that have no correlation to facts.

And in the Rapture we are "dragged out." Rapture means snatched away by force.

My answer:

Lot "chose" to live in the lowlands, Abraham gave lot the choice, the lower realm is where the wrath is poured, the tops of the mountains during great tribulation is as a "day of morning spread upon the mountains" (Joel 2:2) If one is in the high (spiritual) places during a storm then they are spared. Being spiritually minded and not carnally minded puts one in the "high" place, as an eagle, with no effort of it's own, spreads it's wings and is "caught up" high above the clouds to escape the storms. But the eagle makes it's abode in the tops of mountains, otherwise it would take a lot of effort to make the flight, and the out come would be questionable pending on the storm.

There are "three" that bear witness.......
Just prior to the wrath being poured out on Sodom God "appeared" to Abraham, (Gen.18:1) notice the word "appeared". Abraham "lifted up his eyes and looked", and lo, "three" men stood by him. (Gen.18:2)

And there "came" "two" angels to Lot, as Lot "sat" in the gate of Sodom. (Notice the word "came", and that there are only "two" angels, Lot could only see "in-part", just as the church age (seven churches in Rev. 3) However some have "over-come" the church age and "look and see" (Rev.4:1).

God "appeared" to Abraham because Abraham was "looking", but God came to Lot, lot was not looking. Abraham was where he was already suppose to be, Lot had to be forced! Lot is driven to the mountain, loses his wife (soul?), is basically raped by his own daughters, and is never spoken of again after that! Lot, except for the offspring of his two bastard sons, which are never mentioned, perishes!

And just for the record, rapture does not mean "snatched away by force", here the defintion of rapture:

1. ecstatic joy or delight; joyful ecstacy. 2. Often, raptures, an utterance or expression of ecstatic delight. 3. Literary, to enrapture.- syn. bliss, beatitude; transport, exaltation.

Check your own dictionaries, even the term "caught up", as used referring to the "rapture", in the new testament is used only five times:

Ac.8:39) The Spirit of the Lord "caught away" Philip
Ac.12:2 and :4) When Paul is describing a man that is "caught up", whether in the body or not Paul didn't know.
1 Thes.4:17 we shall be "caught up" together
Rev. 12:5) her child was "caught up" to God.

I would contend that "caught up" is referring to a pleasant experience, although it happens at once, by surprise, it is very welcomed! Not as Lot's case where he was "forced against his will".

In no other verses is the word "caught up", or "taken" used, and in many verses the words are used to describe "taken against one's will", never is it for a "good" thing. Lot was "taken", but not "caught up", that's a big difference.

[CoreIssue]

Hey, Vagabond.

Hi Core,

I said:
Abraham was spared the "wrath" and remained in the high place, Lot had to be dragged out and refused to go to the high place, and soon perished.


you asked:
What are you talking about?

Lot did not perish.

And he was not on the Plain when the wrath struck.

Which is the whole point of God's use of this event related to the saints and the Trib. They are removed before the Trib.

Lot was physically kept from the wrath against the Plains by not being there. He did not come out of the wrath in progress as your position is endorsing.


What wrath are you talking about for Abraham?

Here you go again painting and defining things in the Bible in ways that have no correlation to facts.

And in the Rapture we are "dragged out." Rapture means snatched away by force.

My answer:

Lot "chose" to live in the lowlands, Abraham gave lot the choice, the lower realm is where the wrath is poured,

Does not change the fact Lot was removed before the wrath struck. He was out of the place prior to, not in and through the wrath.

That is the key for the application to the Trib. Not being there as in our being on the earth before the Trib.
the tops of the mountains during great tribulation is as a "day of morning spread upon the mountains" (Joel 2:2) If one is in the high (spiritual) places during a storm then they are spared.

Here you go spiritualizing away what is said. It says we will not be on the earth at all.
Being spiritually minded and not carnally minded puts one in the "high" place, as an eagle, with no effort of it's own, spreads it's wings and is "caught up" high above the clouds to escape the storms. But the eagle makes it's abode in the tops of mountains, otherwise it would take a lot of effort to make the flight, and the out come would be questionable pending on the storm.

This is never taught in the Bible anywhere. Again you are spiritualizing.

There are "three" that bear witness.......
Just prior to the wrath being poured out on Sodom God "appeared" to Abraham, (Gen.18:1) notice the word "appeared". Abraham "lifted up his eyes and looked", and lo, "three" men stood by him. (Gen.18:2)

Yep. The Trinity was there. But again this is not the Trib.
And there "came" "two" angels to Lot, as Lot "sat" in the gate of Sodom. (Notice the word "came", and that there are only "two" angels, Lot could only see "in-part", just as the church age (seven churches in Rev. 3) However some have "over-come" the church age and "look and see" (Rev.4:1).
Spiritualizing again.

The First Person of the Trinity does not act actively on the earth. Only the Second and Third. Thus why only 2 went on to Lot.
God "appeared" to Abraham because Abraham was "looking",
This is totally off topic to the issue of Rapture. A different discussion.
but God came to Lot, lot was not looking.
Off topic.
Abraham was where he was already suppose to be, Lot had to be forced!
No bearing on the Trib since the Trib is against ALL Man on the whole earth. The Church will be where it is suppose to be. Not on the earth but in the Wedding Supper.

The Trib is not Church Age. It is the New Covenant time to Israel and Judah.
Lot is driven to the mountain, loses his wife (soul?),
Here again with the spiritualizing. Physical wife.
is basically raped by his own daughters, and is never spoken of again after that!
Yep. His time and purpose were fulfilled. No longer needed.
Lot, except for the offspring of his two bastard sons, which are never mentioned, perishes!
Really? Perishes? And where did you get this knowledge from? Not in the Bible.

And just for the record, rapture does not mean "snatched away by force", here the defintion of rapture:

1. ecstatic joy or delight; joyful ecstacy. 2. Often, raptures, an utterance or expression of ecstatic delight. 3. Literary, to enrapture.- syn. bliss, beatitude; transport, exaltation.

Rapture is not the Biblical word. So your dictionary meaning is moot.

Here is the Greek word used and it does mean what I said.
Strong's Number: 726 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/browse.cgi?number=726&version=kjv) Original WordWord OriginaJrpavzwfrom a derivative of (138 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=138&version=kjv))Transliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=726&version=kjv#Legend) EntryHarpazo1:472,80Phonetic SpellingParts of Speechhar-pad'-zo http://bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=0726g) Verb Definition
to seize, carry off by force
to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
to snatch out or away

Check your own dictionaries, even the term "caught up", as used referring to the "rapture", in the new testament is used only five times:
Again you are wrong. And they are not all the same word.


Ac.8:39) The Spirit of the Lord "caught away" Philip
Ac.12:2 and :4) When Paul is describing a man that is "caught up", whether in the body or not Paul didn't know.
1 Thes.4:17 we shall be "caught up" together
Rev. 12:5) her child was "caught up" to God.

And the definition I provided is the word used in Acts 8:39, 1 Thes 4:17 and here, which you did not list.

2 Corinthians 12:2
2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows.

Absolutely does not mean your what you say it means. Nope.
I would contend that "caught up" is referring to a pleasant experience, although it happens at once, by surprise, it is very welcomed! Not as Lot's case where he was "forced against his will".
You contend wrong because you misdefine the word.
In no other verses is the word "caught up", or "taken" used,
I showed this claim is wrong.

and in many verses the words are used to describe "taken against one's will", never is it for a "good" thing. Lot was "taken", but not "caught up", that's a big difference.

I have shown this is a false claim regarding how you use Rapture.

And using false comparisons as proofs does not not fly. Only in the Rapture does the Bible say saints will be caught up and kept from the whole earth. ONLY then.

The valid comparisons that with Noah and Lot they were kept from being in the situation. Noah was lifted from the face of the earth, Lot was removed from Sodom and the Church will be removed from the earth. And then and only then will/did the wrath strike.

[vagabond]

Hi core: "Yep. The Trinity was there. But again this is not the Trib."
: " The First Person of the Trinity does not act actively on the earth. Only the Second and Third. Thus why only 2 went on to Lot."

Why did three go to Abraham?



Quote:
is basically raped by his own daughters, and is never spoken of again after that!

"Yep. His time and purpose were fulfilled. No longer needed."

So Lot, representing the church being raptured, is no longer needed? I bet the church won't care for that doctrine.

Quote:
Lot, except for the offspring of his two bastard sons, which are never mentioned, perishes!

"Really? Perishes? And where did you get this knowledge from? Not in the Bible."

Exactly, "NOT IN THE BIBLE", Nothing is ever recorded about Lot after this, Nothing, NOT IN THE BIBLE, Lot perishes!


God "appeared" to Abraham because Abraham was "looking",

This is totally off topic to the issue of Rapture. A different discussion.

Quote:
but God came to Lot, lot was not looking.

Off topic.

Why is this "off topic"? It is the exact direct events before the Lord came to these men, hours before the "wrath". My position is that we should be "LOOKING" and not just "SITTING", Abraham was "LOOKING" and "SAW" "THREE" men "APPEAR". You yourselve said that the first part of the trinity doesn't manifest on earth, so where was Abraham? In a higher realm then Lot, spiritually speaking, and as a matter of fact.


Quote:

Ac.8:39) The Spirit of the Lord "caught away" Philip
Ac.12:2 and :4) When Paul is describing a man that is "caught up", whether in the body or not Paul didn't know.
1 Thes.4:17 we shall be "caught up" together
Rev. 12:5) her child was "caught up" to God.


And the definition I provided is the word used in Acts 8:39, 1 Thes 4:17 and here, which you did not list.

Actually I did list it, but I listed it as "acts 12:2" and not 2 Cor.12:2, ooops!

[vagabond]

Heb. 9:28) So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he "APPEAR" the second time without sin unto salvation.

Heb. 11:6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

There are those who are separated from the church before the church (Lot) is taken, "to him that overcometh", these words were used in every message given to the seven churches. Along with these words, "he that hath an ear to hear let him hear what the Spirit sayeth to the church".

Some will see him before he physically comes, those that are seeking to see him now, and to them it will be a reward.

We can wait and he will "come", or we can seek him and he will "appear".

When he comes "every eye will see him", but according to the scripture, he will only "appear" to them that diligently seek him.

In the very first verse after the record of messages to the seven churches, it says, "after this I looked and saw". After what? After we overcome the church state, the whole church will be taken, but some will have entered before they are taken

[CoreIssue]

Hey Vagabond,



Hi core: "Yep. The Trinity was there. But again this is not the Trib."
: " The First Person of the Trinity does not act actively on the earth. Only the Second and Third. Thus why only 2 went on to Lot."


Why did three go to Abraham?

Because the First is the active decision maker about the earth. He chose to go and reveal his decision personally.

Quote:
is basically raped by his own daughters, and is never spoken of again after that!

I did not comment on ths supposed rape. Which it was not. Seduction yes, rape no.

"Yep. His time and purpose were fulfilled. No longer needed."

So Lot, representing the church being raptured, is no longer needed? I bet the church won't care for that doctrine.

Where did I say that? Never did.

He fulfilled his role setting an example that God does not put his saints in places where wrath strikes.

I did not say one word about him being Raptured. I said he was removed. As Noah was removed. As the Church will be removed.

All deny any "in and through" doctrine. Kept from before it happens in all cases.


Quote:
Lot, except for the offspring of his two bastard sons, which are never mentioned, perishes!


"Really? Perishes? And where did you get this knowledge from? Not in the Bible."

Exactly, "NOT IN THE BIBLE", Nothing is ever recorded about Lot after this, Nothing, NOT IN THE BIBLE, Lot perishes!

I repeat. How do you know he perished and did not live to a very ripe old age???

God "appeared" to Abraham because Abraham was "looking",
No. God appeared to Abraham because he had been chosen for a special purpose.

There are many who look to God who are not chosen for anything of this scale. In fact Abraham was to only one ever chosen in this function in the Bible. No one else ever because no one else was ever needed.

You keep making huge unjustified assumptions.
This is totally off topic to the issue of Rapture. A different discussion.
And still is.



Quote:
but God came to Lot, lot was not looking.

Off topic.

Why is this "off topic"?

Because Lot looking or not has nothing to do with the topic.
It is the exact direct events before the Lord came to these men, hours before the "wrath". My position is that we should be "LOOKING" and not just "SITTING",
Really?? Post the verse where it says he was looking.

You cannot because it says he was sitting at his tent. No more until God appeared to him.
Abraham was "LOOKING" and "SAW" "THREE" men "APPEAR". You yourselve said that the first part of the trinity doesn't manifest on earth, so where was Abraham? In a higher realm then Lot, spiritually speaking, and as a matter of fact.
Nope. You need to learn to quote correctly.

I never said the First Person never appeared. I said he was not an active agent on the earth.

Abraham was not in the spirit or any such thing. The Three appeared to him in the physical world.

You are adding this higher realm stuff. Not in the Bible.



Quote:

Ac.8:39) The Spirit of the Lord "caught away" Philip
Ac.12:2 and :4) When Paul is describing a man that is "caught up", whether in the body or not Paul didn't know.
1 Thes.4:17 we shall be "caught up" together
Rev. 12:5) her child was "caught up" to God.

And the definition I provided is the word used in Acts 8:39, 1 Thes 4:17 and here, which you did not list.

Actually I did list it, but I listed it as "acts 12:2" and not 2 Cor.12:2, ooops!

Ooops happen. OK.

But your definition is still most assuredly wrong and denies what you were saying.

[CoreIssue]

Heb. 9:28) So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he "APPEAR" the second time without sin unto salvation.

Heb. 11:6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

There are those who are separated from the church before the church (Lot)

Eternal Security as in Romans 8. One can leave a church but not the Church.

And Lot is not the Church. Non starter there.
is taken, "to him that overcometh", these words were used in every message given to the seven churches. Along with these words, "he that hath an ear to hear let him hear what the Spirit sayeth to the church".
One overcomes by repentence. Not works. No one earns the Rapture.
Some will see him before he physically comes, those that are seeking to see him now, and to them it will be a reward.
Rewards are earned. Rapture is not earned.

It says all in Christ, living and dead, go at the Rapture. No exceptions. It is not a reward. All the Church goes together.
We can wait and he will "come", or we can seek him and he will "appear".
And what is that suppose to mean?

We don't go at separate times because of our spiritual "status."
When he comes "every eye will see him", but according to the scripture, he will only "appear" to them that diligently seek him.
Every living being on the earth will see him at the Second Coming. Event those he will immediately kill.

Only saints will see him at the Rapture.

Why? Because they are two separate events.

In the very first verse after the record of messages to the seven churches, it says, "after this I looked and saw". After what? After we overcome the church state, the whole church will be taken, but some will have entered before they are taken

No. After this he sees the 24 Elders in glorified bodies, meaning the Rapture is done. And he sees the First Seal, beginning the Trib.

He sees the Church Age concluded, the Trib beginning and Israel restored as covenant.

Overcome the church state? That is Biblically meaningless. We never stop being Church.

Sounds like you are trying to argue for a past resurrection of saints before the Church. Nope.

[vagabond]

Gen.18:2) And he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him.
He "looked" before he saw them.


Two appeared to Lot, you said that's because the first person was not an active agent on the earth. Three appeared to Abraham, why?

Gen.18:21) I will go "down" now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it.

[CoreIssue]

Gen.18:2) And he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him.
He "looked" before he saw them.


Two appeared to Lot, you said that's because the first person was not an active agent on the earth. Three appeared to Abraham, why?

Gen.18:21) I will go "down" now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it.

1 The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.
All it says is Abraham was sitting at the entrance of his tent due to the heat of the day. He looked up and saw 3 men who were God appearing to him.

Yes, he recognized them as God. No, he was not waiting for them, expecting them, sitting around looking for God or any such thing. He was sitting there and saw them coming.

Why was the First Person there and why did they appear to Abraham at all? Because of Lot?

No. He was informed that Sarah would bear Isaac. This was a covenant issue and nothing to do with Lot.

Lot and Sodom was a side mention issue when God was leaving. He told Abraham because of the covenant issue about judging Sodom.

The First Person granted Abraham's request about righteous people there. Lot and the others were saved because of this promise, not because he was Lot.

It also showed the complete lost condition of Sodom. There were not even 10 saints there to justify saving it.

And thus it is with the Trib. Once the Church is Raptured there are zero saints left to justify the earth not entering the Trib.

Yes, the testing of the Trib will generate Trib Saints. But they will not be Church and will already be in the Trib before they are saved.

Lot is kept from the destruction. Then the wrath and destruction strike with none spared.

Noah was kept from the Flood. Then the Flood struck with none spared even if some repenented before the drowned.

The Church will be kept from the Trib. Then God's wrath will strike and only the First Fruits of Israel will be spared. The Gentiles that did not become Church can repent, but they will not be born-again and will handed over to Satan because God hands the earth over to Satan.

There is no Church in the Trib.