In Matt.24:22, who are the "elect" whose days w/b shortened?

[Chrystalwuzhere]

The first 13 posts in this thread were copied over from the old board by Chrystalwuzhere.

Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 7:25 am by Budgies.

I was happily reading "What Herb Thinks -- 2010 Again"
http://www.fulfilledprophecy.com/2010_again.html until I
came across the following passage: ... If we're still here when
the 70th week begins, then Christ must return at the end of the final 3
1/2 year period.

But, that's not true. If we're still here when the 70th week begins,
then we may be going into the great tribulation. If so, Jesus will be
going into it with us. Remember, He promised to be with us unto the end
of the age (Matthew 28:20). He also promised to cut short for us the 3
1/2 year tribulation (Matthew 24:22). So, if we're going through it,
Christ will go through it with us.

And, He'll suddenly return in the air for us at some unknown time to
cut our tribulation short. At the end of the seven year period, He'll
return to earth to set up His kingdom. And, we'll be with
Him!Emphasis added.

Matthew 24:22 (KJV) states: "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat024.html#22

Herb seems to think the "elect" in Matthew 24:22 is the Church (which he refers to as "us"). I thought the "elect" was Israel.

What do you all think??? (When responding, please remember Herb
is our Brother in Christ. In other words, let's critique his
analysis, not his character.)

[Chrystalwuzhere]

Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 10:43 am by CoreIssue.


First, define elect. Elect are the saints.

Second, define Church and Israel as being used here. Those are covenants under which saints operate.

So Herb is doing what many do. He is trying to define Elect by covenant as meaning when it only means they are saints.

There were saints before the Flood. They were not under any special covenant as in Israel or Church type covenants. But they were in covenant relationship with God.

So Elect in the Trib is referring to the Trib Saints which would include the Jewish saints saved after Mid but not in protected seclusion with the Woman referred to at Mid. And it would include the Gentile saints who are neither Israel nor Church. That is why they are called elect and saints but not Israel or Church.

Beginning at the Rapture the Two Witnesses restore the covenant to Israel. The 70th Week is part of the Weeks of Daniel and is to Israel and not the Gentiles. That demands that Israel is once again the covenant people and the Church is gone.

Why? Because God only has one covenant in place at a time. And during the Church Age saints are born-again and indwelt immediately by the Holy Spirit making the saints bodies Temple.

Under the notion Church lasts until the Pre-Wrath position he seems to be endorsing Israel cannot be covenant. But it most assuredly is covenant due to the 70th Week, Two Witnesses, Woman and other issues that demand it is covenant.

Further, both covenants cannot operate in tandem. If Church then all saints are Temple but that is false under Israel both in the OT and MK. In both Temple, rituals, Law and such are in full operation even if done slightly differently one to the other. The Temple is either stone or spirit, not both at the same time.

Finally, remember under Israel there were Gentile saints. Yet all covenant issues were to Israel.

So what were the Gentile saints called in the OT? Just Gentiles.

What covenant promises under Israel did they have? None as in Israel possessed.

In the 70th Week and MK Israel is retored. But now the Gentiles are also bound by Temple requirements. No, they do not possess the covenant promises to Israel but they are now bound to go to the Temple once a year, do Law requirements and so on.

That is a change whereas in the OT they were permitted but it was not demanded of them.

To sum it up Church encompasses all saints with no phyiscal Temple with all related to it. The New Covenant to Israel beginning at the Rapture splits again Jews and Gentiles with separate promises, functions and requirements for each, a physical Temple instead of a spiritual one and a restored flesh Priesthood.

Yep, the issue of being indwelt is a big stumbling block to many. But remember when Christ left he stated the Holy Spirit could not come and replace him by indwelling the saints as long as he was on the earth. Now reverse that for the MK and that says the Holy Spirit cannot indwell the saints in the flesh because Christ again walks among us in the flesh.

And thus a physical Temple with all related again.

This issue is a big hang up for many and why they try to keep the Church on the earth. They do not see the indwelling of the Holy Spirit while we are in the flesh is only to the Church and is the only way to have a Temple on the earth while Israel is not covenant.

That should confuse the issue for some!

[Chrystalwuzhere]

Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:09 pm by lighthouse.


that is correct
the Holy Spirit indwells us now [this is the ""age of Grace'']
and will not indwell the believers during the trib

those who become saved, that is during the trib
[the left behind group]
it will be similiar to the ot time

[Chrystalwuzhere]

Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:21 pm by lighthouse.


ps the elect
to answer your question

are those who have turned to Christ during the trib

[Chrystalwuzhere]

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:03 am by Chrystalwuzhere.

I'm not saying anything disparaging against Herb, but I'm pretty sure he is not pre-trib. That may help you understand his position when reading his commentaries.

[Chrystalwuzhere]

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:21 pm by CoreIssue.


I'm not saying anything disparaging against Herb, but I'm pretty sure he is not pre-trib. That may help you understand his position when reading his commentaries.


Agree. As I noted above I believe he is Pre-Wrath from all said.

[Chrystalwuzhere]

Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 6:14 am by Budgies.


that is correct
the Holy Spirit indwells us now [this is the ""age of Grace'']
and will not indwell the believers during the trib

those who become saved, that is during the trib [the left behind group] it will be similiar to the ot time


Do you think the Holy Spirit -- not just the Church -- is the restainer being taken out of the way in 2 Thess. 2:6-7?
2Th 2:6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains {will do so} until he is taken out of the way.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=2Th&chapter=2&version=nas&Go.x=19&Go.y=14

If so, then how can anyone be saved during the Tribulation (beginning of 70th Week, not the Great Tribulation, which is the last 3-1/2 years of 70th Week) before the temple is built and the Law reinstituted?

Last, how does pre-wrath rapture doctrine differ from mid-trib rapture doctrine?

[Chrystalwuzhere]

Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:13 am by IntheWind.


I don`t believe the HS ever leaves, the Church, the believers filled with the HS are the restrainer and is whats removed. The HS will be here for those that accept Christ during that time, remember the Jews still reject Christ and fall under the deception of the AC and go back to sacrifice.

Hope i got that right.

[Chrystalwuzhere]

Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:18 am by CoreIssue.


I don`t believe the HS ever leaves, the Church, the believers filled with the HS are the restrainer and is whats removed. The HS will be here for those that accept Christ during that time, remember the Jews still reject Christ and fall under the deception of the AC and go back to sacrifice.
Hope i got that right.

Do you think the Holy Spirit -- not just the Church -- is the restainer being taken out of the way in 2 Thess. 2:6-7?

Yes. Reading the chapter in whole you see the restrainer is a singular "he." Not a group.

The Church is not the restrainer. The Holy Spirit uses the Church as one tool through which He restrains.

The restrainer was at work in the OT before the Church ever existed.
The doctrine the Church is the restrainer is without evidence in the Bible. It makes the tool the craftsman, so to speak.

The reinstatement of Israel demands the return of the physical Temple. Indwelt saints are Temples.

To remove the Holy Spirit demands you remove the Church since he indwells them.
Is the Holy Spirit active on the earth during the Trib? Not said either way but if so it will be as in the OT ways, not the Church.

If so, then how can anyone be saved during the Tribulation (beginning of 70th Week, not the Great Tribulation, which is the last 3-1/2 years of 70th Week) before the temple is built and the Law reinstituted?


Sorry, but this is loaded with errors.

Of course people can be saves just as they were from Adam to Christ without the Holy Spirit indwelling them.

The Trib is the whole 7 years with the last 3.5 years being Greater Tribulation. No where does the Bible say anything but the Tribulation increases Greatly during the last years. Not that it begins in those years.

And no, the Bible states the Temple is standing during the Trib. The verses about the MK Temple do not say it is built. They say it is cleansed, remodeled and restructured.

And when the 70th Week begins that is Israel and thus the Law is reinstituted at the Rapture by the Two Witnesses.

Israel resumes covenant status at the Rapture but as with Moses, in example, all the parts were not in place or fully functional until a later date.

And as with the Church. It began at the Resurrection but was not fully in place until Pentecost.

A covenant and Law begins when instituted. Not when fully in operation.
Last, how does pre-wrath rapture doctrine differ from mid-trib rapture doctrine?
Mid believes the AC is revealed when the AC invades Israel and the Great Trib (bowls) begin God's wrath.

Pre-Wrath believes the wrath of the Bowls do not begin until about mid point between mid and Second Coming.

Pre-Trib believes all the Trib is God's testing and hence the saints are gone due to such as Rev 3:10. There is division but most believe all the Trib is wrath as well.

Mid and Pre-Wrath center on when they see the 6th Seal occuring.

It is a conversation in itself about time lines as each doctrine sees them happening.

The charts in the link in the header believe make the case for the Seal, Trumpets and Bowls being one after the other with the Seals in the first half, Trumpets at Mid and the Bowls in the Great Trib.

Yes, I know some Pre-Tribbers try to put the 7th Trumpet at the Second Coming but that positions is clearly wrong by verses demand it is at Mid.

[Chrystalwuzhere]

Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 3:28 pm by Budgies.

CoreIssue, thank you for providing thorough explanations, as usual. :)

If so, then how can anyone be saved during the Tribulation (beginning of
70th Week, not the Great Tribulation, which is the last 3-1/2 years of 70th Week) before the temple is built and the Law reinstituted?

The Trib is the whole 7 years with the last 3.5 years being Greater Tribulation. No where does the Bible say anything but theTribulation increases Greatly during the last years. Not that it begins in those years.That's what I tried to convey. :-P I didn't just want to use the term "Tribulation" (which is 7 years) without clarifying it's different from the Great Tribulation" (which is the last 3-1/2 years of the 7-year Tribulation). My concern
was if the temple is not built and Law not reinstituted by the time the 7-year Tribulation begins, and the Holy Spirit is not present (because the restrainer has been taken away at the Rapture), no one can be saved (until the temple is built and Law reinstituted). You explained they could be saved even without the physical temple, the Law and the Holy Spirit, just as in the OT. :-)

And when the 70thWeek begins that is Israel and thus the Law is
reinstituted at the Rapture by the Two Witnesses.

Isn't the 70th Week the sameas the 7-year Tribulation? Both commence with
the Rapture.

Thank you again in advance.

[Chrystalwuzhere]

Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:54 pm by CoreIssue.

That's what I tried to convey. :p I
Sorry, my ooops in not understanding!
Isn't the 70th Week the sameas the 7-year Tribulation? Both commence with the Rapture.
Yepper!

The difference is when the prophecies were given, context of the giving and to whom written.

The 70th Week is exclusively to Israel.

Revelation opens exclusively to the Church but after the 6th church shifts back to Israel yet this time does include some references to Gentiles while remaining Jewish in focus. Church has zero mention again until the close of the Trib.
Thank you again in advance.
You are most welcome!

[Chrystalwuzhere]

Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:11 pm by IntheWind.


The Church is not the restrainer. The Holy Spirit uses the Church as one tool through which he restrains


That is what i meant when i said the HS in the believers was the restrainer, being used as a tool of the HS.

[Chrystalwuzhere]

Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:19 pm by CoreIssue.



The Church is not the restrainer. The Holy Spirit uses the Church as one tool through which he restrains


That is what i meant when i said the HS in the believers was the restrainer, being used as a tool of the HS.

I know.

Just wanted to be chrystal clear for lurkers and others.