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CoreIssue
02-19-2006, 06:26 PM
Center for Reformed Theology and Apologetics

According to Calvinism:
Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the Gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.
There is no freewill in Calvinism. The attempt to say there is freewill as stated here is a blatant redefinition of the word and totally nulifies its meaning.

And note they only mention those to be saved. It is a shock to many of them and totally unacceptable that this means God also determines who goes into the Lake for eternity.

Attempts at saying we are sinners and thus deserve it therefore justifying only some being picked to be saved is illogical and ill thought out.

For it remains a fact that since we are born with sin natures and per Calvinism cannot even want to look for God on our own then it is totally unjust to say those not chosen for salvation belong in the Lake. And that is because they did not choose to be born as they were, they cannot do anything to change what they are per Calvinism and they are never given any chance in any form to escape the Lake per Calvinism.

Yet they call this just. That being what one was born to be with no options deserves punishment.

We are nothing more than robot under Calvinism. Simply playing out our assigned roles and scripts.

The God of Calvinism is arbitrary, unjust, cold and a liar since the Bible says completely different things about God than Calvinism says about him.

If anyone doubts this then read the core tenants of Calvinism. These are commonly called the TULIP.

T

Total Depravity (Total Inability)
Total Depravity is probably the most misunderstood tenet of Calvinism. When Calvinists speak of humans as "totally depraved," they are making an extensive, rather than an intensive statement. The effect of the fall upon man is that sin has extended to every part of his personality -- his thinking, his emotions, and his will. Not necessarily that he is intensely sinful, but that sin has extended to his entire being.

The unregenerate (unsaved) man is dead in his sins (Romans 5:12). Without the power of the Holy Spirit, the natural man is blind and deaf to the message of the gospel (Mark 4:11f). This is why Total Depravity has also been called "Total Inability." The man without a knowledge of God will never come to this knowledge without God's making him alive through Christ (Ephesians 2:1-5).


U


Unconditional Election
Unconditional Election is the doctrine which states that God chose those whom he was pleased to bring to a knowledge of himself, not based upon any merit shown by the object of his grace and not based upon his looking forward to discover who would "accept" the offer of the gospel. God has elected, based solely upon the counsel of his own will, some for glory and others for damnation (Romans 9:15,21). He has done this act before the foundations of the world (Ephesians 1:4-8).

This doctrine does not rule out, however, man's responsibility to believe in the redeeming work of God the Son (John 3:16-18). Scripture presents a tension between God's sovereignty in salvation, and man's responsibility to believe which it does not try to resolve. Both are true -- to deny man's responsibility is to affirm an unbiblical hyper-calvinism; to deny God's sovereignty is to affirm an unbiblical Arminianism.

The elect are saved unto good works (Ephesians 2:10). Thus, though good works will never bridge the gulf between man and God that was formed in the Fall, good works are a result of God's saving grace. This is what Peter means when he admonishes the Christian reader to make his "calling" and "election" sure (2 Peter 1:10). Bearing the fruit of good works is an indication that God has sown seeds of grace in fertile soil.


L


Limited Atonement (Particular Redemption)
Limited Atonement is a doctrine offered in answer to the question, "for whose sins did Christ atone?" The Bible teaches that Christ died for those whom God gave him to save (John 17:9). Christ died, indeed, for many people, but not all (Matthew 26:28). Specifically, Christ died for the invisible Church -- the sum total of all those who would ever rightly bear the name "Christian" (Ephesians 5:25).

This doctrine often finds many objections, mostly from those who think that Limited Atonement does damage to evangelism. We have already seen that Christ will not lose any that the father has given to him (John 6:37). Christ's death was not a death of potential atonement for all people. Believing that Jesus' death was a potential, symbolic atonement for anyone who might possibly, in the future, accept him trivializes Christ's act of atonement. Christ died to atone for specific sins of specific sinners. Christ died to make holy the church. He did not atone for all men, because obviously all men are not saved. Evangelism is actually lifted up in this doctrine, for the evangelist may tell his congregation that Christ died for sinners, and that he will not lose any of those for whom he died!


I


Irresistible Grace
The result of God's Irresistible Grace is the certain response by the elect to the inward call of the Holy Spirit, when the outward call is given by the evangelist or minister of the Word of God. Christ, himself, teaches that all whom God has elected will come to a knowledge of him (John 6:37). Men come to Christ in salvation when the Father calls them (John 6:44), and the very Spirit of God leads God's beloved to repentance (Romans 8:14). What a comfort it is to know that the gospel of Christ will penetrate our hard, sinful hearts and wondrously save us through the gracious inward call of the Holy Spirit (I Peter 5:10)!


P


Perseverance of the Saints
Perseverance of the Saints is a doctrine which states that the saints (those whom God has saved) will remain in God's hand until they are glorified and brought to abide with him in heaven. Romans 8:28-39 makes it clear that when a person truly has been regenerated by God, he will remain in God's stead. The work of sanctification which God has brought about in his elect will continue until it reaches its fulfillment in eternal life (Phil. 1:6). Christ assures the elect that he will not lose them and that they will be glorified at the "last day" (John 6:39). The Calvinist stands upon the Word of God and trusts in Christ's promise that he will perfectly fulfill the will of the Father in saving all the elect.

Ruth
08-20-2006, 08:50 PM
YEAH! I love that you come right out and call this horrible doctrine just what it is!

Thank you!
:yowza:

CoreIssue
08-20-2006, 09:31 PM
YEAH! I love that you come right out and call this horrible doctrine just what it is!

Thank you!
:yowza:
You can call me many things, but PC is not one!:dance:

cbressler1976
09-02-2007, 03:09 PM
I see what calvinism is....i didn't know Stanley believed in this?? I never heard him preach anything like this before...:freak:

Chrystalwuzhere
09-02-2007, 03:11 PM
Ah, good ole hardshells!

We've got them around here. Primitive Baptists, they are called! :bubbles:

Chrystalwuzhere
09-02-2007, 03:16 PM
Their beliefs go way beyond just predestination in salvation.

My cousin married a man raised in Calvinism. He turned out to be a serial killer who is now on death row awaiting execution. Anyways, after he killed the women and dumped their body in corn fields around the county, he said that those women were predestined to die that way. That is, that God predestined them to die that way. He also believes he was predestined to kill them that way. But that's not all, he also believes he was predestined for salvation, and is on his way to Heaven and nothing he can do will change that. He believed that while he was killing these women. :tsk:

My cousin's grandfather was raised Calvinist. He was told from a small child (by his mother) that he was predestined for Hell. So, he always thought, "What's the use of trying? I'm going to Hell anyways." My cousin tried to witness to him and convince him of his need for Jesus, but he was convinced that since he was predestined for Hell, there was nothing that could be done.

He died without accepting Jesus, I think. Why would they accept him when they think there's no hope for them because of preordained predestination?

So, as you can see, Calvinism is very, very destructive!

Chrystalwuzhere
09-02-2007, 03:18 PM
But, let me strongly stress that Charles Stanley does not believe the doctrine I expressed above. He may have mild Calvinist beliefs concerning salvation, but he preaches that all are predestined for salvation. I've heard him say so myself many times. He's not hardshell.

cbressler1976
09-02-2007, 03:20 PM
the baptist churches are my favorite ones....we were never taught this?? so much confusion....:jaw[1]:

Chrystalwuzhere
09-02-2007, 03:24 PM
Don't confuse Primitive Baptist with other Baptist churches.

The Primitive Baptists are in a league entirely by themselves. Well, around here anyways.

cbressler1976
09-02-2007, 03:34 PM
How many groups are there??? This is soooo scary...how can someone find Jesus when there are so many different ideas?? :gah:

Chrystalwuzhere
09-02-2007, 03:46 PM
How many groups are there??? This is soooo scary...how can someone find Jesus when there are so many different ideas?? :gah:

It's frustrating, isn't it?

CoreIssue
09-02-2007, 03:54 PM
Well, let me confuse it some more on Stanley. Read. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moderate_Calvinism)

This position is not to be confused with the label Secure Arminianism, which I, in general, hold to.

I believe, as do many, that we are born with sin natures that will cause us to sin. But there is an inherent void in us by the absence of God, with a desire to fill it.

There is also the Law of Conscience, which tells us we are doing wrong and convicts us.

Most learn to not listen to Conscience, or make Conscience the sum total of their moral compass.

Most fill that void selfishly, as in Humanism making Man or self their god, or Islam with a god that allows them to seek to enslave, control or kill others.

Some pursue that void and look for God. They choose to want him and he helps them to fine him.

Calvinism, Mild or Extreme, basically says God must intervene to bring one to God. Mild says just overcomes it enough to allow us to seek God, Extreme says totally forces us to be saved, if chosen.

May seem like a trivial difference, but when understood in full, it is a major difference.

Arminianism says people are saved by freewill and can loose salvation by freewill. Problem with that being is that denies being dead to the Law, since one cannot be totally dead to the Law and at the same time violate the Law to be lost.

Nor does it properly understand that once an eternal choice is iron clad made, God predestines us to succceed, per Romans 8.

He will kill you to save your spirit, if needed. Literally stated in the Bible.

Calvinism says God picks who will be saved. There is no freewill.

Problem here is we are then puppets. No need to ever live. Just create us in Heaven or Hell to start.

And it isn't just. To allow someone to live with absolutely no chance of escaping Hell is not just.

Again, while the differencs seem slight in some of the issues, they are significant when the issues and ramifications are all weighed out.

Chrystalwuzhere
09-02-2007, 04:01 PM
We're not robots... truly. I believe in free will.

I've never heard Stanley say this myself, but that doesn't mean I don't believe he believes it.

My life is proof of free will. But, that would take too long to go into.

cbressler1976
09-03-2007, 10:13 AM
Their beliefs go way beyond just predestination in salvation.

My cousin married a man raised in Calvinism. He turned out to be a serial killer who is now on death row awaiting execution. Anyways, after he killed the women and dumped their body in corn fields around the county, he said that those women were predestined to die that way. That is, that God predestined them to die that way. He also believes he was predestined to kill them that way. But that's not all, he also believes he was predestined for salvation, and is on his way to Heaven and nothing he can do will change that. He believed that while he was killing these women. :tsk:

My cousin's grandfather was raised Calvinist. He was told from a small child (by his mother) that he was predestined for Hell. So, he always thought, "What's the use of trying? I'm going to Hell anyways." My cousin tried to witness to him and convince him of his need for Jesus, but he was convinced that since he was predestined for Hell, there was nothing that could be done.

He died without accepting Jesus, I think. Why would they accept him when they think there's no hope for them because of preordained predestination?

So, as you can see, Calvinism is very, very destructive!



People believe this??? I don't even understand everything I read in the bible...but I don't see anything like this in the bible?? weirdos... :oops:

cbressler1976
09-03-2007, 10:20 AM
Well, let me confuse it some more on Stanley. Read. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moderate_Calvinism)

.
I would have never guessed that this is what he believed....I wondered though about his life principles book...I couldn't understand why he would write a book and refer to it as much as he does the bible....:spineyes:

a.baker
09-03-2007, 11:26 AM
I agree very scary for a nonbeliever to find Jesus the way God meant it to be. I feel God pointed me here to CTZ for a reason. Probably so I wouldn't get lost into anything crazy. There is a very big college down the road from me called Calvin College. Calvinistic is very scary and not right. If someone knows Jesus you would think that they would see the false in that doctrine but satan can deceive us very easy he is tricky and he as well knows us individually! I always have to ask god everyday before I start my day to lead me to what He sees upright according to His Word. I feel that gives me a shield of protection, but boy there is a lot out there. Oh the Wisdom, we must have the wisdom to see false. Its there for everyone we just have to ask God for it. I also ask for Him to not let go of me and to guide me because I am so weak and I am nothing without without Him. I hope what I reply is o.k. if not than let me know... maybe I am getting too personal with prayer?

Jessie
09-03-2007, 02:39 PM
never too personal with prayer!

tell Him everything!

a.baker
09-03-2007, 03:23 PM
I just meant with in my replies. I agree tell Him everything. He knows all.

kay-gee
09-04-2007, 09:31 AM
Calvin is mostly rememered for this form of thought, but don't forget that some good came out his tenure in "church" history. He was a strict reformer, and is the father of what is known as the European work ethic. He helped to make Switzerland what it is today. Also his teachings became the ground work for what is now called The Presbyterian church. It could be that folks have read more into his original teachings on predestination, than even he believed. It would not be the first time that things have been mis-construed by men out of their zeal. So just because his name is on a college or hospital, does not mean that there are people inside waiting to suck you into some soul damning belief system. Just some food for thought.
all the best...

CoreIssue
09-04-2007, 10:10 AM
Calvin is mostly rememered for this form of thought, but don't forget that some good came out his tenure in "church" history. He was a strict reformer, and is the father of what is known as the European work ethic.
Which stinks.
He helped to make Switzerland what it is today.
And that is something to brag about? No!
Also his teachings became the ground work for what is now called The Presbyterian church.
Real spiritual health there.
It could be that folks have read more into his original teachings on predestination, than even he believed.
Nope. He was a lawyer who filtered the Bible through an ultra legalistic lens.
It would not be the first time that things have been mis-construed by men out of their zeal. So just because his name is on a college or hospital, does not mean that there are people inside waiting to suck you into some soul damning belief system. Just some food for thought.
all the best...
Try actually knowing his theology before commenting on it.

You obiviously do not understand what an extremist he was.

The Tulip is still FULLY embraced by many today.

Jessie
09-04-2007, 03:35 PM
Their beliefs go way beyond just predestination in salvation.

My cousin married a man raised in Calvinism. He turned out to be a serial killer who is now on death row awaiting execution. Anyways, after he killed the women and dumped their body in corn fields around the county, he said that those women were predestined to die that way. That is, that God predestined them to die that way. He also believes he was predestined to kill them that way. But that's not all, he also believes he was predestined for salvation, and is on his way to Heaven and nothing he can do will change that. He believed that while he was killing these women. :tsk:

My cousin's grandfather was raised Calvinist. He was told from a small child (by his mother) that he was predestined for Hell. So, he always thought, "What's the use of trying? I'm going to Hell anyways." My cousin tried to witness to him and convince him of his need for Jesus, but he was convinced that since he was predestined for Hell, there was nothing that could be done.

He died without accepting Jesus, I think. Why would they accept him when they think there's no hope for them because of preordained predestination?

So, as you can see, Calvinism is very, very destructive!

he sure has a suprise waiting for him....:eek:

thats just sick!

kay-gee
09-06-2007, 08:43 AM
European work ethic rules. Face it, if money were no issue, would you buy a European built car or an American?
What is wrong with Presbyterians? What is wrong with the Swiss? The most efficient country in the world!
I actually know a fair bit about John Calvin. I had to read up on him a lot, after I had been accused of being a Calvinist.
Also people attach names to buildings all the time. If I went to JFK airport, Would that make me a liberal Democrat? A no-brainer actually.
all the best...

CoreIssue
09-06-2007, 10:17 AM
European work ethic rules. Face it, if money were no issue, would you buy a European built car or an American?
American.
What is wrong with Presbyterians?
False doctrine all over the place.
What is wrong with the Swiss?
Liberal and anti-Christian.
The most efficient country in the world!
In your dreams.
I actually know a fair bit about John Calvin. I had to read up on him a lot, after I had been accused of being a Calvinist.
Then you know he was an extreme legalist lawyer who read the Bible as if it were a Law book.
Also people attach names to buildings all the time. If I went to JFK airport, Would that make me a liberal Democrat? A no-brainer actually.
all the best...
It is done to honor the person.

Would you slap Hitler on and building say it is just a name?

THAT would be a true no-brain action.

Esoteric
10-22-2007, 10:49 PM
I am not sure Calvinism deserves to be here... Now Hyper-Calvinism is certainly heresy... But what Calvin taught is entirely Biblical...

Mike

CoreIssue
10-23-2007, 12:50 AM
I am not sure Calvinism deserves to be here... Now Hyper-Calvinism is certainly heresy... But what Calvin taught is entirely Biblical...

Mike
You pick one element of what he claimed and post the proofs for it.

Then we will discuss it.

mikewittenburg
06-18-2008, 11:45 AM
Calvinism or Doctrines of Grace are the only Doctrines that uphold God's authority and remove any thought that man has of being on the throne

a.baker
06-18-2008, 01:35 PM
mikewittenburg, what Christian denominations view themselves as being on the throne? Denominations as a whole, forget it, throw them out. Focus on being a Christian and thats it according to what scripture teaches us and test everything to scripture. Not one denomination holds up 100% to scripture. But Gods church does. No mistranslations or hidden things. Scripture meant for all, if they accept it and want it. All would if they only read the bible for themselves and listened. Scripture is to taken as a whole. Denominations take it as parts and change it up a little. We have scripture in the bible that talks about this specifically.

CoreIssue
06-18-2008, 01:49 PM
Calvinism or Doctrines of Grace are the only Doctrines that uphold God's authority and remove any thought that man has of being on the throne
Calvinism is not a doctrine of grace. It is a doctrine where God says you go to Heaven and you go to Hell, no options allowed. That is Total Predestination, not grace at all.

Utter nonsense that freewill equates to Man being on the throne of God. It means Man can choose to ask for God's grace of reject it, thus gaining the unjustified merits of his gift or the justified condemnation of judgment by God's mercy, nothing by the power of Man.

We are to repent. To repent means to personally want to change. There is no repentance in being programmed to obey. Or grace in being programmed not to.

God's authority is upheld in him declaring we choose to want him or not. If he did not allow it, we all perish. If he allows it his authority is upheld by setting the rules. But grace means unmerited gift, no predestination. One is giving and one is legislating.

mikewittenburg
06-18-2008, 03:38 PM
we choose God ? I sure I read in Gods Word that He chooses us. Also doesn't God give those saved a heart of flesh that was once stone. It looks like we need to rely upon God's actions for salvation. :):

CoreIssue
06-18-2008, 08:20 PM
we choose God ? I sure I read in Gods Word that He chooses us. Also doesn't God give those saved a heart of flesh that was once stone. It looks like we need to rely upon God's actions for salvation. :):
I have had this debate many times. The response to every verse on freewill is to redefine freewill to what God changed the person to want, by God's choosing, not a persons. That defies the meaning of freewill.

Romans 8 give the correct formula, which is neither Calvinist or Arminian. It is Secure Arminianism.
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[j (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208&version=31#fen-NIV-28130j)] who[k (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208&version=31#fen-NIV-28130k)] have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. Here is the order of events:


Foreknowledge of who would love him.
Predestination to success.

That is not in agreement with Calvinism that says predestination, period.

Love is a freewill thing, not a programmed thing.
2 Peter 3:9
9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
God wants none to perish but we know many will.

That is God setting the standard at freewill acceptance, not forced compliance by some and forced damnation on others.

Further, the angels were created perfect. Did God predestine some to rebell and go to Hell? No. Again freewill.

The argument none can make it without God first changing their hearts does not work as regard the angels. It fails totally.

Calvinist talk about others putting Man on the throne of God. Fact is Calvinist put themselves in an elite catagory that says somehow they rise above the rest to be chosen by God.

All we can do is want God, in freewill, and seek him. He must bring us to him to finish the deal, which he promises to do in Romans 8.

But once saved always saved, Eternal Security, as Romans 8 also declared. That is not an issue of being programmed. It is an issue of once decided always decided, by the person, as the angels that chose to rebel are always damned and those that did not will never rebel.
Isaiah 55:6-7
6 Seek the LORD while he may be found;
call on him while he is near.
7 Let the wicked forsake his way
and the evil man his thoughts.
Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him,
and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

As with Romans 8, seek and turn to God first and he will show mercy and forgive you.

Always seek, love and repent first, then mercy, forgiveness, predestination and preservation second.

Secure Arminianism, not Calvinism.

kay-gee
06-19-2008, 10:08 AM
Arminianism=?

all the best...

CoreIssue
06-19-2008, 11:17 AM
Arminianism=?

all the best...
In general, it means total freewill, as in one comes to God in freewill for salvation and can leave in freewill, with some doing so.

Secure Arminianism means you come in freewill then God predestines you to success, not as in Calvinism's view, but in the view you won't want to leave, by choice.

Problem with Arminianism is it is not Biblical. Law condemns, without one cannot be condemned and we are dead to the Law, so we cannot be condemned, thus we cannot leave.

Erroneous doctrines spend a lot of time trying to explain things away. Arminianism on how one can be dead to the Law and leave and Calvinism has to constrant redefine the Bible on issues of freewill, seeking, repentance and so forth.

Secure Arminianism fits freewill, Romans 8, backslidders and the rest perfectly. No fancy explanations required.