Calvinism

[CoreIssue]

Center for Reformed Theology and Apologetics

According to Calvinism:
Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the Gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.
There is no freewill in Calvinism. The attempt to say there is freewill as stated here is a blatant redefinition of the word and totally nulifies its meaning.

And note they only mention those to be saved. It is a shock to many of them and totally unacceptable that this means God also determines who goes into the Lake for eternity.

Attempts at saying we are sinners and thus deserve it therefore justifying only some being picked to be saved is illogical and ill thought out.

For it remains a fact that since we are born with sin natures and per Calvinism cannot even want to look for God on our own then it is totally unjust to say those not chosen for salvation belong in the Lake. And that is because they did not choose to be born as they were, they cannot do anything to change what they are per Calvinism and they are never given any chance in any form to escape the Lake per Calvinism.

Yet they call this just. That being what one was born to be with no options deserves punishment.

We are nothing more than robot under Calvinism. Simply playing out our assigned roles and scripts.

The God of Calvinism is arbitrary, unjust, cold and a liar since the Bible says completely different things about God than Calvinism says about him.

If anyone doubts this then read the core tenants of Calvinism. These are commonly called the TULIP.

T

Total Depravity (Total Inability)
Total Depravity is probably the most misunderstood tenet of Calvinism. When Calvinists speak of humans as "totally depraved," they are making an extensive, rather than an intensive statement. The effect of the fall upon man is that sin has extended to every part of his personality -- his thinking, his emotions, and his will. Not necessarily that he is intensely sinful, but that sin has extended to his entire being.

The unregenerate (unsaved) man is dead in his sins (Romans 5:12). Without the power of the Holy Spirit, the natural man is blind and deaf to the message of the gospel (Mark 4:11f). This is why Total Depravity has also been called "Total Inability." The man without a knowledge of God will never come to this knowledge without God's making him alive through Christ (Ephesians 2:1-5).


U


Unconditional Election
Unconditional Election is the doctrine which states that God chose those whom he was pleased to bring to a knowledge of himself, not based upon any merit shown by the object of his grace and not based upon his looking forward to discover who would "accept" the offer of the gospel. God has elected, based solely upon the counsel of his own will, some for glory and others for damnation (Romans 9:15,21). He has done this act before the foundations of the world (Ephesians 1:4-8).

This doctrine does not rule out, however, man's responsibility to believe in the redeeming work of God the Son (John 3:16-18). Scripture presents a tension between God's sovereignty in salvation, and man's responsibility to believe which it does not try to resolve. Both are true -- to deny man's responsibility is to affirm an unbiblical hyper-calvinism; to deny God's sovereignty is to affirm an unbiblical Arminianism.

The elect are saved unto good works (Ephesians 2:10). Thus, though good works will never bridge the gulf between man and God that was formed in the Fall, good works are a result of God's saving grace. This is what Peter means when he admonishes the Christian reader to make his "calling" and "election" sure (2 Peter 1:10). Bearing the fruit of good works is an indication that God has sown seeds of grace in fertile soil.


L


Limited Atonement (Particular Redemption)
Limited Atonement is a doctrine offered in answer to the question, "for whose sins did Christ atone?" The Bible teaches that Christ died for those whom God gave him to save (John 17:9). Christ died, indeed, for many people, but not all (Matthew 26:28). Specifically, Christ died for the invisible Church -- the sum total of all those who would ever rightly bear the name "Christian" (Ephesians 5:25).

This doctrine often finds many objections, mostly from those who think that Limited Atonement does damage to evangelism. We have already seen that Christ will not lose any that the father has given to him (John 6:37). Christ's death was not a death of potential atonement for all people. Believing that Jesus' death was a potential, symbolic atonement for anyone who might possibly, in the future, accept him trivializes Christ's act of atonement. Christ died to atone for specific sins of specific sinners. Christ died to make holy the church. He did not atone for all men, because obviously all men are not saved. Evangelism is actually lifted up in this doctrine, for the evangelist may tell his congregation that Christ died for sinners, and that he will not lose any of those for whom he died!


I


Irresistible Grace
The result of God's Irresistible Grace is the certain response by the elect to the inward call of the Holy Spirit, when the outward call is given by the evangelist or minister of the Word of God. Christ, himself, teaches that all whom God has elected will come to a knowledge of him (John 6:37). Men come to Christ in salvation when the Father calls them (John 6:44), and the very Spirit of God leads God's beloved to repentance (Romans 8:14). What a comfort it is to know that the gospel of Christ will penetrate our hard, sinful hearts and wondrously save us through the gracious inward call of the Holy Spirit (I Peter 5:10)!


P


Perseverance of the Saints
Perseverance of the Saints is a doctrine which states that the saints (those whom God has saved) will remain in God's hand until they are glorified and brought to abide with him in heaven. Romans 8:28-39 makes it clear that when a person truly has been regenerated by God, he will remain in God's stead. The work of sanctification which God has brought about in his elect will continue until it reaches its fulfillment in eternal life (Phil. 1:6). Christ assures the elect that he will not lose them and that they will be glorified at the "last day" (John 6:39). The Calvinist stands upon the Word of God and trusts in Christ's promise that he will perfectly fulfill the will of the Father in saving all the elect.

[Ruth]

YEAH! I love that you come right out and call this horrible doctrine just what it is!

Thank you!
:yowza:

[CoreIssue]

YEAH! I love that you come right out and call this horrible doctrine just what it is!

Thank you!
:yowza:
You can call me many things, but PC is not one!:dance:

[cbressler1976]

I see what calvinism is....i didn't know Stanley believed in this?? I never heard him preach anything like this before...:freak:

[Chrystalwuzhere]

Ah, good ole hardshells!

We've got them around here. Primitive Baptists, they are called! :bubbles:

[Chrystalwuzhere]

Their beliefs go way beyond just predestination in salvation.

My cousin married a man raised in Calvinism. He turned out to be a serial killer who is now on death row awaiting execution. Anyways, after he killed the women and dumped their body in corn fields around the county, he said that those women were predestined to die that way. That is, that God predestined them to die that way. He also believes he was predestined to kill them that way. But that's not all, he also believes he was predestined for salvation, and is on his way to Heaven and nothing he can do will change that. He believed that while he was killing these women. :tsk:

My cousin's grandfather was raised Calvinist. He was told from a small child (by his mother) that he was predestined for Hell. So, he always thought, "What's the use of trying? I'm going to Hell anyways." My cousin tried to witness to him and convince him of his need for Jesus, but he was convinced that since he was predestined for Hell, there was nothing that could be done.

He died without accepting Jesus, I think. Why would they accept him when they think there's no hope for them because of preordained predestination?

So, as you can see, Calvinism is very, very destructive!

[Chrystalwuzhere]

But, let me strongly stress that Charles Stanley does not believe the doctrine I expressed above. He may have mild Calvinist beliefs concerning salvation, but he preaches that all are predestined for salvation. I've heard him say so myself many times. He's not hardshell.

[cbressler1976]

the baptist churches are my favorite ones....we were never taught this?? so much confusion....:jaw[1]:

[Chrystalwuzhere]

Don't confuse Primitive Baptist with other Baptist churches.

The Primitive Baptists are in a league entirely by themselves. Well, around here anyways.

[cbressler1976]

How many groups are there??? This is soooo scary...how can someone find Jesus when there are so many different ideas?? :gah:

[Chrystalwuzhere]

How many groups are there??? This is soooo scary...how can someone find Jesus when there are so many different ideas?? :gah:

It's frustrating, isn't it?

[CoreIssue]

Well, let me confuse it some more on Stanley. Read. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moderate_Calvinism)

This position is not to be confused with the label Secure Arminianism, which I, in general, hold to.

I believe, as do many, that we are born with sin natures that will cause us to sin. But there is an inherent void in us by the absence of God, with a desire to fill it.

There is also the Law of Conscience, which tells us we are doing wrong and convicts us.

Most learn to not listen to Conscience, or make Conscience the sum total of their moral compass.

Most fill that void selfishly, as in Humanism making Man or self their god, or Islam with a god that allows them to seek to enslave, control or kill others.

Some pursue that void and look for God. They choose to want him and he helps them to fine him.

Calvinism, Mild or Extreme, basically says God must intervene to bring one to God. Mild says just overcomes it enough to allow us to seek God, Extreme says totally forces us to be saved, if chosen.

May seem like a trivial difference, but when understood in full, it is a major difference.

Arminianism says people are saved by freewill and can loose salvation by freewill. Problem with that being is that denies being dead to the Law, since one cannot be totally dead to the Law and at the same time violate the Law to be lost.

Nor does it properly understand that once an eternal choice is iron clad made, God predestines us to succceed, per Romans 8.

He will kill you to save your spirit, if needed. Literally stated in the Bible.

Calvinism says God picks who will be saved. There is no freewill.

Problem here is we are then puppets. No need to ever live. Just create us in Heaven or Hell to start.

And it isn't just. To allow someone to live with absolutely no chance of escaping Hell is not just.

Again, while the differencs seem slight in some of the issues, they are significant when the issues and ramifications are all weighed out.

[Chrystalwuzhere]

We're not robots... truly. I believe in free will.

I've never heard Stanley say this myself, but that doesn't mean I don't believe he believes it.

My life is proof of free will. But, that would take too long to go into.

[cbressler1976]

Their beliefs go way beyond just predestination in salvation.

My cousin married a man raised in Calvinism. He turned out to be a serial killer who is now on death row awaiting execution. Anyways, after he killed the women and dumped their body in corn fields around the county, he said that those women were predestined to die that way. That is, that God predestined them to die that way. He also believes he was predestined to kill them that way. But that's not all, he also believes he was predestined for salvation, and is on his way to Heaven and nothing he can do will change that. He believed that while he was killing these women. :tsk:

My cousin's grandfather was raised Calvinist. He was told from a small child (by his mother) that he was predestined for Hell. So, he always thought, "What's the use of trying? I'm going to Hell anyways." My cousin tried to witness to him and convince him of his need for Jesus, but he was convinced that since he was predestined for Hell, there was nothing that could be done.

He died without accepting Jesus, I think. Why would they accept him when they think there's no hope for them because of preordained predestination?

So, as you can see, Calvinism is very, very destructive!



People believe this??? I don't even understand everything I read in the bible...but I don't see anything like this in the bible?? weirdos... :oops:

[cbressler1976]

Well, let me confuse it some more on Stanley. Read. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moderate_Calvinism)

.
I would have never guessed that this is what he believed....I wondered though about his life principles book...I couldn't understand why he would write a book and refer to it as much as he does the bible....:spineyes:

[a.baker]

I agree very scary for a nonbeliever to find Jesus the way God meant it to be. I feel God pointed me here to CTZ for a reason. Probably so I wouldn't get lost into anything crazy. There is a very big college down the road from me called Calvin College. Calvinistic is very scary and not right. If someone knows Jesus you would think that they would see the false in that doctrine but satan can deceive us very easy he is tricky and he as well knows us individually! I always have to ask god everyday before I start my day to lead me to what He sees upright according to His Word. I feel that gives me a shield of protection, but boy there is a lot out there. Oh the Wisdom, we must have the wisdom to see false. Its there for everyone we just have to ask God for it. I also ask for Him to not let go of me and to guide me because I am so weak and I am nothing without without Him. I hope what I reply is o.k. if not than let me know... maybe I am getting too personal with prayer?

[Jessie]

never too personal with prayer!

tell Him everything!

[a.baker]

I just meant with in my replies. I agree tell Him everything. He knows all.

[kay-gee]

Calvin is mostly rememered for this form of thought, but don't forget that some good came out his tenure in "church" history. He was a strict reformer, and is the father of what is known as the European work ethic. He helped to make Switzerland what it is today. Also his teachings became the ground work for what is now called The Presbyterian church. It could be that folks have read more into his original teachings on predestination, than even he believed. It would not be the first time that things have been mis-construed by men out of their zeal. So just because his name is on a college or hospital, does not mean that there are people inside waiting to suck you into some soul damning belief system. Just some food for thought.
all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Calvin is mostly rememered for this form of thought, but don't forget that some good came out his tenure in "church" history. He was a strict reformer, and is the father of what is known as the European work ethic.
Which stinks.
He helped to make Switzerland what it is today.
And that is something to brag about? No!
Also his teachings became the ground work for what is now called The Presbyterian church.
Real spiritual health there.
It could be that folks have read more into his original teachings on predestination, than even he believed.
Nope. He was a lawyer who filtered the Bible through an ultra legalistic lens.
It would not be the first time that things have been mis-construed by men out of their zeal. So just because his name is on a college or hospital, does not mean that there are people inside waiting to suck you into some soul damning belief system. Just some food for thought.
all the best...
Try actually knowing his theology before commenting on it.

You obiviously do not understand what an extremist he was.

The Tulip is still FULLY embraced by many today.

[Jessie]

Their beliefs go way beyond just predestination in salvation.

My cousin married a man raised in Calvinism. He turned out to be a serial killer who is now on death row awaiting execution. Anyways, after he killed the women and dumped their body in corn fields around the county, he said that those women were predestined to die that way. That is, that God predestined them to die that way. He also believes he was predestined to kill them that way. But that's not all, he also believes he was predestined for salvation, and is on his way to Heaven and nothing he can do will change that. He believed that while he was killing these women. :tsk:

My cousin's grandfather was raised Calvinist. He was told from a small child (by his mother) that he was predestined for Hell. So, he always thought, "What's the use of trying? I'm going to Hell anyways." My cousin tried to witness to him and convince him of his need for Jesus, but he was convinced that since he was predestined for Hell, there was nothing that could be done.

He died without accepting Jesus, I think. Why would they accept him when they think there's no hope for them because of preordained predestination?

So, as you can see, Calvinism is very, very destructive!

he sure has a suprise waiting for him....:eek:

thats just sick!

[kay-gee]

European work ethic rules. Face it, if money were no issue, would you buy a European built car or an American?
What is wrong with Presbyterians? What is wrong with the Swiss? The most efficient country in the world!
I actually know a fair bit about John Calvin. I had to read up on him a lot, after I had been accused of being a Calvinist.
Also people attach names to buildings all the time. If I went to JFK airport, Would that make me a liberal Democrat? A no-brainer actually.
all the best...

[CoreIssue]

European work ethic rules. Face it, if money were no issue, would you buy a European built car or an American?
American.
What is wrong with Presbyterians?
False doctrine all over the place.
What is wrong with the Swiss?
Liberal and anti-Christian.
The most efficient country in the world!
In your dreams.
I actually know a fair bit about John Calvin. I had to read up on him a lot, after I had been accused of being a Calvinist.
Then you know he was an extreme legalist lawyer who read the Bible as if it were a Law book.
Also people attach names to buildings all the time. If I went to JFK airport, Would that make me a liberal Democrat? A no-brainer actually.
all the best...
It is done to honor the person.

Would you slap Hitler on and building say it is just a name?

THAT would be a true no-brain action.

[Esoteric]

I am not sure Calvinism deserves to be here... Now Hyper-Calvinism is certainly heresy... But what Calvin taught is entirely Biblical...

Mike

[CoreIssue]

I am not sure Calvinism deserves to be here... Now Hyper-Calvinism is certainly heresy... But what Calvin taught is entirely Biblical...

Mike
You pick one element of what he claimed and post the proofs for it.

Then we will discuss it.

[mikewittenburg]

Calvinism or Doctrines of Grace are the only Doctrines that uphold God's authority and remove any thought that man has of being on the throne

[a.baker]

mikewittenburg, what Christian denominations view themselves as being on the throne? Denominations as a whole, forget it, throw them out. Focus on being a Christian and thats it according to what scripture teaches us and test everything to scripture. Not one denomination holds up 100% to scripture. But Gods church does. No mistranslations or hidden things. Scripture meant for all, if they accept it and want it. All would if they only read the bible for themselves and listened. Scripture is to taken as a whole. Denominations take it as parts and change it up a little. We have scripture in the bible that talks about this specifically.

[CoreIssue]

Calvinism or Doctrines of Grace are the only Doctrines that uphold God's authority and remove any thought that man has of being on the throne
Calvinism is not a doctrine of grace. It is a doctrine where God says you go to Heaven and you go to Hell, no options allowed. That is Total Predestination, not grace at all.

Utter nonsense that freewill equates to Man being on the throne of God. It means Man can choose to ask for God's grace of reject it, thus gaining the unjustified merits of his gift or the justified condemnation of judgment by God's mercy, nothing by the power of Man.

We are to repent. To repent means to personally want to change. There is no repentance in being programmed to obey. Or grace in being programmed not to.

God's authority is upheld in him declaring we choose to want him or not. If he did not allow it, we all perish. If he allows it his authority is upheld by setting the rules. But grace means unmerited gift, no predestination. One is giving and one is legislating.

[mikewittenburg]

we choose God ? I sure I read in Gods Word that He chooses us. Also doesn't God give those saved a heart of flesh that was once stone. It looks like we need to rely upon God's actions for salvation. :):

[CoreIssue]

we choose God ? I sure I read in Gods Word that He chooses us. Also doesn't God give those saved a heart of flesh that was once stone. It looks like we need to rely upon God's actions for salvation. :):
I have had this debate many times. The response to every verse on freewill is to redefine freewill to what God changed the person to want, by God's choosing, not a persons. That defies the meaning of freewill.

Romans 8 give the correct formula, which is neither Calvinist or Arminian. It is Secure Arminianism.
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[j (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208&version=31#fen-NIV-28130j)] who[k (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208&version=31#fen-NIV-28130k)] have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. Here is the order of events:


Foreknowledge of who would love him.
Predestination to success.

That is not in agreement with Calvinism that says predestination, period.

Love is a freewill thing, not a programmed thing.
2 Peter 3:9
9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
God wants none to perish but we know many will.

That is God setting the standard at freewill acceptance, not forced compliance by some and forced damnation on others.

Further, the angels were created perfect. Did God predestine some to rebell and go to Hell? No. Again freewill.

The argument none can make it without God first changing their hearts does not work as regard the angels. It fails totally.

Calvinist talk about others putting Man on the throne of God. Fact is Calvinist put themselves in an elite catagory that says somehow they rise above the rest to be chosen by God.

All we can do is want God, in freewill, and seek him. He must bring us to him to finish the deal, which he promises to do in Romans 8.

But once saved always saved, Eternal Security, as Romans 8 also declared. That is not an issue of being programmed. It is an issue of once decided always decided, by the person, as the angels that chose to rebel are always damned and those that did not will never rebel.
Isaiah 55:6-7
6 Seek the LORD while he may be found;
call on him while he is near.
7 Let the wicked forsake his way
and the evil man his thoughts.
Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him,
and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

As with Romans 8, seek and turn to God first and he will show mercy and forgive you.

Always seek, love and repent first, then mercy, forgiveness, predestination and preservation second.

Secure Arminianism, not Calvinism.

[kay-gee]

Arminianism=?

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Arminianism=?

all the best...
In general, it means total freewill, as in one comes to God in freewill for salvation and can leave in freewill, with some doing so.

Secure Arminianism means you come in freewill then God predestines you to success, not as in Calvinism's view, but in the view you won't want to leave, by choice.

Problem with Arminianism is it is not Biblical. Law condemns, without one cannot be condemned and we are dead to the Law, so we cannot be condemned, thus we cannot leave.

Erroneous doctrines spend a lot of time trying to explain things away. Arminianism on how one can be dead to the Law and leave and Calvinism has to constrant redefine the Bible on issues of freewill, seeking, repentance and so forth.

Secure Arminianism fits freewill, Romans 8, backslidders and the rest perfectly. No fancy explanations required.

[AIEC]

Now it all makes sense. the minute someone gets on and posts a statement that disagrees with you, they are treated with contempt. I guess when you're the owner you can get away with that. I assume you seek to discourage all who disagree with you by being rude to them so they will want to leave. Such as your post #20 &23. You have no patience for people who make a statement that contradicts your belief, what's worse is you sent me here to learn about why predestination is wrong. I was expecting some theological type teaching with endless verses to support your view & that condemn mine. here is the tally, you only provided 3 total verses that support your view, That is impossible to base your foundation on 3 verses, especially those 3. You obviously believe in your teaching so much that you feel you have no need to provide ample Biblical evidence. What's more, your responses to other posters and myself included, are without love and patience, both which are fruit (evidence) of the spirit within you. You should really ask yourself if you are honoring God with your responses.
JAMES 3 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14230&occ=12)
13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with MEEKNESS of wisdom.
1 PETER 3 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14230&occ=13)
15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with MEEKNESS and fear:

I found this in your main page:
CTZ is one small voice among many small voices trying to make some difference in these times. We believe a belief worth having is one that can be defended and justified. Such a belief should be able to withstand challenge in a logical and rational manner, and that those beliefs should be shared.

I would like to debate this topic of predestination with you, so every one can be edified by the scripture presented. Furthermore I would request that you put it back in the area that you deleted my last question from, so readers can join in. If you accept, you will have to be willing to be more diligent in providing biblical evidence rather that just your statements, I think it would be more beneficial for everyone.

[CoreIssue]

Readers can join in here. Nothing is blocking them.

Do you agree with the statements by Calvinist regarding Calvinism or not? If so then you already have a debate started. If not where do you differ?

Let us try to save time and get to heart of the matter quickly.

Center for Reformed Theology and Apologetics

According to Calvinism:
Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the Gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.There is no freewill in Calvinism. The attempt to say there is freewill as stated here is a blatant redefinition of the word and totally nullifies its meaning.

And note they only mention those to be saved. It is a shock to many of them and totally unacceptable that this means God also determines who goes into the Lake for eternity.

Attempts at saying we are sinners and thus deserve it therefore justifying only some being picked to be saved is illogical and ill thought out.

For it remains a fact that since we are born with sin natures and per Calvinism cannot even want to look for God on our own then it is totally unjust to say those not chosen for salvation belong in the Lake. And that is because they did not choose to be born as they were, they cannot do anything to change what they are per Calvinism and they are never given any chance in any form to escape the Lake per Calvinism.

Yet they call this just. That being what one was born to be with no options deserves punishment.

We are nothing more than robot under Calvinism. Simply playing out our assigned roles and scripts.

The God of Calvinism is arbitrary, unjust, cold and a liar since the Bible says completely different things about God than Calvinism says about him.

If anyone doubts this then read the core tenants of Calvinism. These are commonly called the TULIP.

T

Total Depravity (Total Inability)
Total Depravity is probably the most misunderstood tenet of Calvinism. When Calvinists speak of humans as "totally depraved," they are making an extensive, rather than an intensive statement. The effect of the fall upon man is that sin has extended to every part of his personality -- his thinking, his emotions, and his will. Not necessarily that he is intensely sinful, but that sin has extended to his entire being.

The unregenerate (unsaved) man is dead in his sins (Romans 5:12). Without the power of the Holy Spirit, the natural man is blind and deaf to the message of the gospel (Mark 4:11f). This is why Total Depravity has also been called "Total Inability." The man without a knowledge of God will never come to this knowledge without God's making him alive through Christ (Ephesians 2:1-5).


U


Unconditional Election
Unconditional Election is the doctrine which states that God chose those whom he was pleased to bring to a knowledge of himself, not based upon any merit shown by the object of his grace and not based upon his looking forward to discover who would "accept" the offer of the gospel. God has elected, based solely upon the counsel of his own will, some for glory and others for damnation (Romans 9:15,21). He has done this act before the foundations of the world (Ephesians 1:4-8).

This doctrine does not rule out, however, man's responsibility to believe in the redeeming work of God the Son (John 3:16-18). Scripture presents a tension between God's sovereignty in salvation, and man's responsibility to believe which it does not try to resolve. Both are true -- to deny man's responsibility is to affirm an unbiblical hyper-calvinism; to deny God's sovereignty is to affirm an unbiblical Arminianism.

The elect are saved unto good works (Ephesians 2:10). Thus, though good works will never bridge the gulf between man and God that was formed in the Fall, good works are a result of God's saving grace. This is what Peter means when he admonishes the Christian reader to make his "calling" and "election" sure (2 Peter 1:10). Bearing the fruit of good works is an indication that God has sown seeds of grace in fertile soil.


L


Limited Atonement (Particular Redemption)
Limited Atonement is a doctrine offered in answer to the question, "for whose sins did Christ atone?" The Bible teaches that Christ died for those whom God gave him to save (John 17:9). Christ died, indeed, for many people, but not all (Matthew 26:28). Specifically, Christ died for the invisible Church -- the sum total of all those who would ever rightly bear the name "Christian" (Ephesians 5:25).

This doctrine often finds many objections, mostly from those who think that Limited Atonement does damage to evangelism. We have already seen that Christ will not lose any that the father has given to him (John 6:37). Christ's death was not a death of potential atonement for all people. Believing that Jesus' death was a potential, symbolic atonement for anyone who might possibly, in the future, accept him trivializes Christ's act of atonement. Christ died to atone for specific sins of specific sinners. Christ died to make holy the church. He did not atone for all men, because obviously all men are not saved. Evangelism is actually lifted up in this doctrine, for the evangelist may tell his congregation that Christ died for sinners, and that he will not lose any of those for whom he died!


I


Irresistible Grace
The result of God's Irresistible Grace is the certain response by the elect to the inward call of the Holy Spirit, when the outward call is given by the evangelist or minister of the Word of God. Christ, himself, teaches that all whom God has elected will come to a knowledge of him (John 6:37). Men come to Christ in salvation when the Father calls them (John 6:44), and the very Spirit of God leads God's beloved to repentance (Romans 8:14). What a comfort it is to know that the gospel of Christ will penetrate our hard, sinful hearts and wondrously save us through the gracious inward call of the Holy Spirit (I Peter 5:10)!


P


Perseverance of the Saints
Perseverance of the Saints is a doctrine which states that the saints (those whom God has saved) will remain in God's hand until they are glorified and brought to abide with him in heaven. Romans 8:28-39 makes it clear that when a person truly has been regenerated by God, he will remain in God's stead. The work of sanctification which God has brought about in his elect will continue until it reaches its fulfillment in eternal life (Phil. 1:6). Christ assures the elect that he will not lose them and that they will be glorified at the "last day" (John 6:39). The Calvinist stands upon the Word of God and trusts in Christ's promise that he will perfectly fulfill the will of the Father in saving all the elect.

[AIEC]

Do you agree with the statements by Calvinist regarding Calvinism or not? If so then you already have a debate started. If not where do you differ?
Honestly, I never studied anything that has to do with Calvin. But I have heard of him. Do I believe the same as he does in every aspect? I don't know, as we go through our study, maybe you will be able to tell me if he agrees with me.

Let us try to save time and get to heart of the matter quickly.
Agreed.

According to Calvinism:
Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the triune God.
I agree.
EPHESIANS 2 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14322&occ=2)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath QUICKENED us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )
COLOSSIANS 2 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14322&occ=3)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he QUICKENED together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

We all are dead spiritualy and physicaly, when christ died for our sins , he made us alive with him. To be made alive means to have our sins forgiven.

"The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the Gospel."
I agree. This verse shows us that no one can come to the father unless drawn, 8 times used in the Bible gives it a litteral definition of drag, why? because we are dead.
JOHN 6 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14348&occ=0)
37 All that the Father GIVETH ME shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
JOHN 6 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14346&occ=0)
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me DRAW HIM: and I will raise him up at the last day.
1 JOHN 2 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14351&occ=26)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep HIS COMMANDMENTS.
Yes, believers want to willingly keep his commandments, but as Paul stated, we still struggle, it isn't as though we don't fail, but we don't stop trying. We always try to keep his commandments.

The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone.
I agree.
ROMANS 8 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14355&occ=0)
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also DID PREDESTINATE to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he DID PREDESTINATE, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

What does it mean to be foreknown of God? Here it is.(4267)
1) to have knowledge before hand
2) to foreknow
a) of those whom God elected to salvation
3) to predestinate


Im sure you pick #1 to be the definitive definition here. Then you will probably reword it this way: to have knowledge before hand of who would choose him. The problem is we don't get to pick how we want to define it, the Bible does. What is the context speaking of? Salvation according to God from the beginning of it, to the end. This next verse speaks of christ being foreordained or chosen as the NIV puts it. They are the same words.

1 PETER 1 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14375&occ=0)
20 Who verily was FOREORDAINED (4267) before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.
I agree.
EPHESIANS 1 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14391&occ=0)
4 According as HE HATH CHOSEN US in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
PROVERBS 16 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14394&occ=0)
4 The LORD hath made ALL THINGS FOR HIMSELF: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

There is no freewill in Calvinism.
If you define free will as in free will to be saved, then I agree with Calvin. However we do have a freewill (to a point) physically. We can wear what we want and things like that, but God most certainly interveenes even in our physical life if he sees that what we are doing is not pleasing to him, as he has given us many accounts of this principle in the Bible, Noah's flood, sodom, etc.
If those people wanted to be wicked why didn't God not let them be? Ater all that is their freewill choice is it not?

God is in control
God can withhold people from sinning.
GENESIS 20 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14415&occ=0)
6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld THEE FROM SINNING against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.
God can also use lying spirits to control people.
1 KINGS 22 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14421&occ=0)
19 And he said, HEAR THOU THEREFORE the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persude him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
Christ was not crucified by mans will but by Gods.
ACTS 2:23 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdverse.pl?file=14483&occ=1)
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
ACTS 4:27 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdverse.pl?file=14452&occ=1)
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
God does what ever pleases him, not us.
PSALM 115 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14465&occ=4)
3 But our God is IN THE HEAVENS: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
We are regarded as nothing, God does as he pleases.
DANIEL 4:35 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdverse.pl?file=14471&occ=5)
35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Our salvation is in God's will.
JOHN 1:13 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdverse.pl?file=14487&occ=0)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

I put verse 12 in to show you something in the context. Those that recieve him or that believe him to be born again, by who's will is it?
God is soverign.
1 PETER 2:7 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdverse.pl?file=14511&occ=1)
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

The Bible is filled with those that are elected, chosen, predestined. Can you show me how this is harmonized with free will?

And note they only mention those to be saved. It is a shock to many of them and totally unacceptable that this means God also determines who goes into the Lake for eternity.
I'm not sure I understand this statement, so I will leave it for now. Please specify.

Attempts at saying we are sinners and thus deserve it therefore justifying only some being picked to be saved is illogical and ill thought out.
Or you could look at it this way, why would God pick any of us? You see, what seems logical & illogical to us doesn't matter. It has to be whatever God says in his word.

For it remains a fact that since we are born with sin natures and per Calvinism cannot even want to look for God on our own then it is totally unjust to say those not chosen for salvation belong in the Lake.
Doesn't the Bible clearly state that no one seeks him?
ROMANS 3 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14517&occ=0)
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is NONE THAT SEEKETH after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:

And that is because they did not choose to be born as they were, they cannot do anything to change what they are per Calvinism
You keep saying "per Calvanism" as if though the Bible didn't state those things mentioned above.
We are all born as people who have sinned. Rom 3:23
Because adam sinned we are were made sinners. Rom 5:19
Because Adam sinned we are all under condemnation of hell. Rom 5:18
and they are never given any chance in any form to escape the Lake per Calvinism.
Thank God for his mercy. You see, I can't condemn anyone, only God can.
ROMANS 9 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14532&occ=0)
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is NOT OF HIM THAT WILLETH, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
This is why even babies can be saved, because of his gift of grace and his mercy.

Yet they call this just. That being what one was born to be with no options deserves punishment.
That is Just according to God.
ROMANS 6 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14534&occ=0)
23 FOR THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Eternal death is our payment to God for the sin we inherited from Adam, not from a concious will of sinning. Rom 3:23 & 5:18-19. that includes the whole human race.

We are nothing more than robot under Calvinism. Simply playing out our assigned roles and scripts.
OK, so let's not dwell on calvinism, let's focus on what I have presented to you and go from there. If I were Calvin, I would have used the term "clay" rather than robots.
ROMANS 9 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14542&occ=0)
21 Hath not the potter POWER OVER THE CLAY, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

The God of Calvinism is arbitrary, unjust, cold and a liar since the Bible says completely different things about God than Calvinism says about him.
OK, so let's forget about Calvin and his teachings, let's focus on what we have here before us and go from there, step by step.

If anyone doubts this then read the core tenants of Calvinism. These are commonly called the TULIP.
I think I covered the tulip with the verses above. If not, we can further discuss it.

[AIEC]

Note: there appeared a winking face after I posted my statements, I did not put it there on purpose. No harm intended.

[CoreIssue]

Note: there appeared a winking face after I posted my statements, I did not put it there on purpose. No harm intended.
The d ) with no space is the code for a smiley face. I split them to get rid of it.

[CoreIssue]

Do you agree with the statements by Calvinist regarding Calvinism or not? If so then you already have a debate started. If not where do you differ?
Honestly, I never studied anything that has to do with Calvin. But I have heard of him. Do I believe the same as he does in every aspect? I don't know, as we go through our study, maybe you will be able to tell me if he agrees with me.
I read first. You are a Calvinist.
According to Calvinism:
Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the triune God.
I agree.
EPHESIANS 2 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14322&occ=2)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath QUICKENED us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )

COLOSSIANS 2 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14322&occ=3)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he QUICKENED together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Nothing here states God mandates who is saved. Grace is not mandated, it can be rejected.

We all are dead spiritualy and physicaly, when christ died for our sins , he made us alive with him. To be made alive means to have our sins forgiven.
Yep. But not by mandate.

Having read the rest your problem is you change the meaning of grace to mandate. He decides you will be saved upon his will and decision making alone, you have no say in it.

That is not grace. A gift can be rejected as many do reject it. Under your formula only some are mandated saved and the rest are mandated damned.

Does not matter how many semantical efforts you make cloaked in Biblical verses for God to mandate who is saved means he also mandates who is lost.

Totally erroneous to say we are sinners thus it is just. We are born with sin natures due to absolutely nothing we have done to deserve it. Thus to not give a way out is to mandate we are damned.

In all my debates with Calvinist this issue puts them up a a wall. They cannot answer it, justify it or logically deny it. You have God sending babies to Hell by his choice, not one else. Not justice, which means one pays for what they do, but condemnation for a nature imposed upon them by Adam and Eve that God permitted to happen and knew would happen, making him responsible, not the babies.

All the hyperbole of God's way being so far above ours does not change that reality. It is an excuse.
"The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the Gospel."
I agree. This verse shows us that no one can come to the father unless drawn, 8 times used in the Bible gives it a litteral definition of drag, why? because we are dead.
JOHN 6 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14348&occ=0)
37 All that the Father GIVETH ME shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Now full context, which you are ignoring.
35Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
It does not say God decides and gives. It says all who look to the Son will be given. They look and the Father gives. Not they look because the Father gave.

Freewill action results in a predestined outcome.
(http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14346&occ=0)JOHN 6 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14346&occ=0)
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me DRAW HIM: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Yep. Freewill choice and predestined outcome.

And no, the meaning here is not drag, but to lead or attract.
The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 1670 Browse Lexicon (http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Greek/browse.cgi?number=1670&version=kjv) Original WordWord Origin e&lkwprobably akin to (138 (http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=138&version=kjv)) Transliterated WordTDNT (http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1670&version=kjv#Legend) Entry Helkuo2:503,227 Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech hel-koo'-o Verb Definition

to draw, drag off
metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel


God wants to lead all people to him. Which leads into one of the many verses Calvinists avoid.
8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
Doesn't want any to perish yet mandates those who will perish. Can you say contradiction with the Calvinist view, but not mine?

And how about
John 3:17 (New International Version)

17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Whole world. Not a portion of.

Again states God does not want to condemn, but save the world. Yet Calvinists have him only hand picking some by his choice.

Surely our all powerful God could save all if you were to remain true to the fact God is all powerful?

The problem with Calvinism is it does not allow for real freewill.

And how about Satan and the Fallen Angels? Created perfect and they fell, defied God and lost their perfection. Surely God could have created beings that would not have failed, so did he created them destined for damnation?

God wants none to perish but by freewill many will.
(http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14351&occ=26)[QUOTE] (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14351&occ=26)1 JOHN 2 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14351&occ=26)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep HIS COMMANDMENTS.
Yes, believers want to willingly keep his commandments, but as Paul stated, we still struggle, it isn't as though we don't fail, but we don't stop trying. We always try to keep his commandments.
Which has nothing to do with being saved by grace.
The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone.
I agree.
ROMANS 8 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14355&occ=0)
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also DID PREDESTINATE to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he DID PREDESTINATE, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

What does it mean to be foreknown of God? Here it is.(4267)
1) to have knowledge before hand
2) to foreknow
a) of those whom God elected to salvation
3) to predestinate


Im sure you pick #1 to be the definitive definition here. Then you will probably reword it this way: to have knowledge before hand of who would choose him. The problem is we don't get to pick how we want to define it, the Bible does. What is the context speaking of? Salvation according to God from the beginning of it, to the end. This next verse speaks of christ being foreordained or chosen as the NIV puts it. They are the same words.
Let us get it straight here. I don't have to reword anything. The verse STATES he foreknew then predestined. YOU are the one rewording the passage to foreknew BECAUSE he had predestined.

Foreknew THEN predestined THEN called THEN justified THEN glorified. A linear process.

NIV
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[j (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28130j)] who[k (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28130k)] have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
NASB 29For those whom He (BI (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28146BI))foreknew, He also (BJ (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28146BJ))predestined to become (BK (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28146BK))conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the (BL (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28146BL))firstborn among many brethren;
30and these whom He (BM (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28147BM))predestined, He also (BN (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28147BN))called; and these whom He called, He also (BO (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28147BO))justified; and these whom He justified, He also (BP (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28147BP))glorified.

NKJV
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

1 PETER 1 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14375&occ=0)
20 Who verily was FOREORDAINED (4267) before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Yep. Foreknew. No version translates it predestined. So you lose on that one.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.
I agree.
EPHESIANS 1 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14391&occ=0)
4 According as HE HATH CHOSEN US in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
PROVERBS 16 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14394&occ=0)
4 The LORD hath made ALL THINGS FOR HIMSELF: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Does not say chose by predestination.
There is no freewill in Calvinism.
If you define free will as in free will to be saved, then I agree with Calvin. However we do have a freewill (to a point) physically. We can wear what we want and things like that, but God most certainly interveenes even in our physical life if he sees that what we are doing is not pleasing to him, as he has given us many accounts of this principle in the Bible, Noah's flood, sodom, etc.
If those people wanted to be wicked why didn't God not let them be? Ater all that is their freewill choice is it not?

Yep. The Calvinism argument.

First of all, God did let them be evil. But it his world and his plan, which I personally agree with, so he punished them for their freewill choices.

The answer is to allow those who would chose him in freewill to be saved he had to clear the slate of the evil that would have blocked them from doing so. A freewill thing.

Now, as for freewill in the Bible. You are trying to put a limit on it that does not exist in the Bible.
The KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon
Strong's Number: 05071 Browse Lexicon (http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/browse.cgi?number=5071&version=kjv) Original WordWord Origin hbdnfrom (05068 (http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=5068&version=kjv)) Transliterated WordTDNT (http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=05071&version=kjv#Legend) Entry N@dabahTWOT - 1299a Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech ned-aw-baw' Noun Feminine Definition

voluntariness, free-will offering

voluntariness
freewill, voluntary, offering




Freewill offering in the OT. Stated quite clearly in the Bible. You deny it existed and yet the Bible says it did. Not only in the offering but in other ways as well.
17The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.
Not who God ordered to come, but who wishes to come. That is freewill.
God is in control
God can withhold people from sinning.
GENESIS 20 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14415&occ=0)
6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld THEE FROM SINNING against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.
Which does not prove Calvinism.
God can also use lying spirits to control people.
1 KINGS 22 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14421&occ=0)
19 And he said, HEAR THOU THEREFORE the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persude him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
Again does not prove Calvinism.
Christ was not crucified by mans will but by Gods.
ACTS 2:23 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdverse.pl?file=14483&occ=1)
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
False. God foreknew what they would do an planned it in.
ACTS 4:27 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdverse.pl?file=14452&occ=1)
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
Does not mean dictated.
God does what ever pleases him, not us.
PSALM 115 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14465&occ=4)
3 But our God is IN THE HEAVENS: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
And it pleases him to try to save us all even knowing not all will accept.
We are regarded as nothing, God does as he pleases.
DANIEL 4:35 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdverse.pl?file=14471&occ=5)
35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Yep. And he does it for the love of us, who are nothing compared to him.
Our salvation is in God's will.
JOHN 1:13 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdverse.pl?file=14487&occ=0)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Yep. Who received him, not forced to accept him.
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Born-again.

I put verse 12 in to show you something in the context. Those that recieve him or that believe him to be born again, by who's will is it?
God is soverign.
1 PETER 2:7 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdverse.pl?file=14511&occ=1)
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

The Bible is filled with those that are elected, chosen, predestined. Can you show me how this is harmonized with free will?
Yep. Already did above.

And note they only mention those to be saved. It is a shock to many of them and totally unacceptable that this means God also determines who goes into the Lake for eternity.
I'm not sure I understand this statement, so I will leave it for now. Please specify.
This is the killer for Calvinists. You guys don't think it through. You dwell on who God choses to save but fail to understand that means he is chosing who goes to Hell as well.

You are doing what all Calvinists I debate do. You shut down when forced to confront that reality.

God could save everyone by your doctrine. But he doesn't. He deliberately picks some for Heaven and some for Hell. You have a cold, unjust and arbitrary god.
Attempts at saying we are sinners and thus deserve it therefore justifying only some being picked to be saved is illogical and ill thought out.
Or you could look at it this way, why would God pick any of us? You see, what seems logical & illogical to us doesn't matter. It has to be whatever God says in his word.

Trying to justify it does not change the fact God allowed sin nature into us and then picks whom he saves. And that means he picks who goes to Hell.

No way you can talk around that fact.
For it remains a fact that since we are born with sin natures and per Calvinism cannot even want to look for God on our own then it is totally unjust to say those not chosen for salvation belong in the Lake.
Doesn't the Bible clearly state that no one seeks him?
No. It does not say that.

But your doctrine is unjust, arbitrary and cold. You have God picking who he will not save and sending them to the Lake at Judgment Day and you call that just.

Never had a way out, never a chance and yet it is just to condemn them as being responsible for what they did not bring upon themselves, meaning sin nature.

As with all Calvinists that is a concept you don't like and try to explain away but never can.

Calvinism is not Biblical.
ROMANS 3 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14517&occ=0)
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is NONE THAT SEEKETH after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Yep. Born that way via sin nature that God allowed to happen and then not provide any hope of salvation to unless he hand picks them.

YOU condemn people for what that did not create or cause in themselves and then try to call it just. You totally fail on that point.

It is not just to condemn someone for being what God allowed them to be unless they have a way to cease being what condemns. You take that away from them. Hopeless, helpless and yet you call it justice to punish them for being what God allowed. Cold, unjust and arbitrary.
And that is because they did not choose to be born as they were, they cannot do anything to change what they are per Calvinism
You keep saying "per Calvanism" as if though the Bible didn't state those things mentioned above.
It does NOT say what you claim it says. All are born sinful, through not fault of their own, and God gives ALL a way out via freewill repentance. But not in Calvinism. Oh, no. You guys hold those going to Hell responsible for their conditions, thus justify condemnation, yet give them no way to escape what they didn't cause.

And Satan and Fallen Angels? Were they created for Hell as well? After all God picks so they had to be since nothing can defy God in your thinking.
We are all born as people who have sinned. Rom 3:23
But not because of their fault. Because of Adam and Eve. You are holding them accountable for sins of others.
Because adam sinned we are were made sinners. Rom 5:19
Even that baby you would send to Hell who didn't have a clue what they did was wrong.
Because Adam sinned we are all under condemnation of hell. Rom 5:18
But God gives us an escape route. YOU take that away and God rolls the dice on who goes to Hell and who does not. Yet you call that justice?
and they are never given any chance in any form to escape the Lake per Calvinism.
Thank God for his mercy. You see, I can't condemn anyone, only God can.
What a lame escapist excuse. God does it so it is just? You accuse God of being arbitrary and unjust. That is one YOUR head and God does not like it one bit.
ROMANS 9 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14532&occ=0)
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is NOT OF HIM THAT WILLETH, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
And God would show his mercy on all. Why do you think God bothered creating Israel? To bring salvation to the whole world.
This is why even babies can be saved, because of his gift of grace and his mercy.
And again you do not complete the statement. Can be saved or can be condemned. Say it all. The baby is being deliberately condemned without hope in your view by God.
Yet they call this just. That being what one was born to be with no options deserves punishment.
That is Just according to God.
ROMANS 6 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14534&occ=0)
23 FOR THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Eternal death is our payment to God for the sin we inherited from Adam, not from a concious will of sinning. Rom 3:23 & 5:18-19. that includes the whole human race.

Gift, not mandate. Freewill choice to accept or deny.

You strip that away. God sent his son for ALL the world, not some. God wants NONE to perish. You make a lie of those verse.
We are nothing more than robot under Calvinism. Simply playing out our assigned roles and scripts.
OK, so let's not dwell on calvinism, let's focus on what I have presented to you and go from there. If I were Calvin, I would have used the term "clay" rather than robots.
You are practicing Calvinism. YOU make us robots with pre programed scripts. You make this life meaningless.

God could have just created some in Heaven and some in Hell and been done with it per your thinking. After all, we have no say in the matter.
ROMANS 9 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14542&occ=0)
21 Hath not the potter POWER OVER THE CLAY, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Yep. The potter shapes but when kilned some pots crack no matter how good a job the potter does. It is the material of the pot that ultimate dictates success or failure.

Any potter knows what the illustration is saying. Apparently you do not.
The God of Calvinism is arbitrary, unjust, cold and a liar since the Bible says completely different things about God than Calvinism says about him.
OK, so let's forget about Calvin and his teachings, let's focus on what we have here before us and go from there, step by step.
You are practicing Calvinism so it fits.
If anyone doubts this then read the core tenants of Calvinism. These are commonly called the TULIP.
I think I covered the tulip with the verses above. If not, we can further discuss it.
And you agreed, thus you are a Calvinist.

[AIEC]

According to Calvinism:
Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the triune God.
I agree.
(http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14322&occ=2)EPHESIANS 2 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14322&occ=2)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath QUICKENED us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )

(http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14322&occ=3)COLOSSIANS 2 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14322&occ=3)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he QUICKENED together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
"Nothing here states God mandates who is saved. Grace is not mandated, it can be rejected".
You're right, nothing here states that, because I did not put these verses here to prove that, I put it in to provide evidence for the for the first statement you made on calvanism: According to Calvinism:
"Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the triune God."
These verses show us that salvation is accomplished by by the almighty power of the triune God. I don't see how any believer disagrees with that statement. If you don't agree with that statement, then how do you believe salvation is accomplished?
JONAH 2 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=15621&occ=0)
9 But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. SALVATION IS OF THE LORD.


He decides you will be saved upon his will and decision making alone, you have no say in it. That's right.
2 TIMOTHY 1 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=15662&occ=0)
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to HIS OWN PURPOSE AND GRACE, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
That is not grace. A gift can be rejected as many do reject it.
Can you show me from scripture, how the gift of grace is similar to a physical gift?

Under your formula only some are mandated saved and the rest are mandated damned.
Does not matter how many semantical efforts you make cloaked in Biblical verses for God to mandate who is saved means he also mandates who is lost.

You keep seeing only what you want to see from my verses and statements, so you can make such claims as these. Don't lose focus. There are no semantical efforts here, I am giving you scripture pertinent to each topic we are discussing. If you feel that because God chooses those who are saved then according to "logic" (your logic) that means he has to choose or "mandate" those who go to hell, then that's your choice to feel that way, but don't make it mine. I will keep telling you, a many times as necessary, what I keep trying to tell you:
We are all born as people who have sinned(verb). Rom 3:23
Because Adam sinned we are were made sinners. Rom 5:19
Because Adam sinned we are all under condemnation of hell. Rom 5:18
Is that not self explanatory? Am I manipulating these verses to make it say something they don't? If so please explain.
The fact is, because of Adams sin we are all headed to hell, God did not have to choose who goes there, as you seem to imply, that was all the work of Adam, he chose for you.

Totally erroneous to say we are sinners thus it is just.
We are sinners, and it is just. By the way what do you mean when you say just? I'm thinking you mean fair by your statements, if so, then you should say "fair" to not confuse the debate. You know that the condemnation of sinners is absolutely just (justice). It doesn't matter if in your eyes you did or did not do something to deserve hell, the fact is, because of Adam we are all condemned.
ROMANS 6 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=15711&occ=11)
23 For the WAGES of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
ROMANS 5 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=15713&occ=3)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to CONDEMNATION; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

We are born with sin natures due to absolutely nothing we have done to deserve it.
I agree.
Thus to not give a way out is to mandate we are damned.
Again, if that is how you see things, fine, but don't proclaim it as gospel, for it is merely your opinion.

In all my debates with Calvinist this issue puts them up a a wall. They cannot answer it, justify it or logically deny it. You have God sending babies to Hell by his choice, not one else.
Well, with all do respect, I answered it, justified it, and as far as logic, neither your nor mine have anything to do with understanding the Bible. It seems you need something to be logical in your eyes in order for you to make heads or tails of it.
I'll show you again:
We are all born as people who have sinned(verb). Rom 3:23
Because Adam sinned we are were made sinners. Rom 5:19
Because Adam sinned we are all under condemnation of hell. Rom 5:18
All includes all in these verses, does it not? Who has babies going to hell? Not God, Adam. Although I'm sure he did not do it on purpose, but the blame falls on him not God. By your statements, it seems it is you who have God sending babies to hell.

Not justice, which means one pays for what they do, but condemnation for a nature imposed upon them by Adam and Eve that God permitted to happen and knew would happen, making him responsible, not the babies.
God's justice, demands condemnation, we don't have to do anything to be condemned, Adam did it for us. Yes, God permitted the deception by the serpent unto Eve, it was a test for them, to see if they were going to obey God or not. They failed by being willingly disobedient to God's command. Thus they (adam & Eve) were responsible for the condemnation of man kind, not God. That is the way you are choosing to "logicaly" make sense of it all. What happened to your rule of reading the Bible litteraly?

All the hyperbole of God's way being so far above ours does not change that reality. It is an excuse.
Apparently, it is your excuse. read this litteraly:
ISAIAH 55 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=15754&occ=9)
9 For as the heavens are HIGHER than the earth, so are my ways HIGHER than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
No need to hyperbolize, that is litteral. Actualy, if you stopped putting in your thoughts to the verses I am presenting you, they will make more sense and perhaps you will see my point.

JOHN 6 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14348&occ=0)
37 All that the Father GIVETH ME shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. Now full context, which you are ignoring.
35Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
"It does not say God decides and gives. It says all who look to the Son will be given. They look and the Father gives. Not they look because the Father gave.
That is because you split my verses up to make that statement, I noticed you did not make that statement after verse 44.
JOHN 6 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14346&occ=0)
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me DRAW HIM: and I will raise him up at the last day. Yep. Freewill choice and predestined outcome.


Freewill action results in a predestined outcome.
Great, then I suppose you won't mind giving me a verse that supports your statement. That is, without adding to the word "foreknew" to change its meaning.


And no, the meaning here is not drag, but to lead or attract.
The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 1670 Browse Lexicon (http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Greek/browse.cgi?number=1670&version=kjv) Original WordWord Origin e&lkwprobably akin to (138 (http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=138&version=kjv)) Transliterated WordTDNT (http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1670&version=kjv#Legend) Entry Helkuo2:503,227 Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech hel-koo'-o Verb Definition


to draw, drag off
metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impe

Forgive me, I see we differ in the way we arrive at word meanings from the Bible. A dictionary definition vs a Biblical one. I use lexicons but I always double check its definitions with the Bible because they aren't always accurate. Lets see how we can understand the unclear words in light of the clear ones as the Bible defines them, this word (1670) appears 8 times. To understand what a word or phrase means, we have to compare scripture with scripture (1 Cor 2:13), and because the english word changes from Bible to Bible, it is the context in which the word or phrase is found that helps us find the correct meaning for the unclear verses. In this case, "draw" is used as follows:
JOHN 6 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=15770&occ=53)
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me DRAW him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
JOHN 12 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=15770&occ=54)
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will DRAW all men unto me.

The meaning of the two verses above are in question here, to understand it's meaning.

JOHN 18 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=15774&occ=49)
10 Then Simon Peter having a sword DREW it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.
JOHN 21 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=15770&occ=55)
6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to DRAW it for the multitude of fishes.
JOHN 21 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=15774&occ=50)
11 Simon Peter went up, and DREW the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.
ACTS 16 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=15774&occ=55)
19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and DREW them into the marketplace unto the rulers,
ACTS 21 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=15774&occ=58)
30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and DREW him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.
JAMES 2 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=15770&occ=59)
6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and DRAW you before the judgment seats?

By the remainder of these verses, we can see that to lead or impel do not fit as a definition for the word draw, rather it is litteraly understood as drag.
Lets lok at jn 6:44 in context to see if Impel or lead could be the right word:
JOHN 6 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=15798&occ=0) (parentheses mine)
27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. (It is God's work that we believe in Jesus)
30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. (He is speaking of eternal life, which every human does not have)34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. (sounds like free will, but is it? Let's read on)
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All (not the whole wolrd being spoken of here, but a particular people)that the Father GIVETH ME (a particular people given to Christ by the father) shall come to me (Not "may come if they want to"); and him that cometh to me (this is not adding another group of people, it is speaking of the same group who are given to Christ) I will in no wise cast out. (Eternal security)
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me (again, we are given to Christ by the Father) I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life (Again, not another group of people. This is reiterating from the previous verse in a different way, but with the same meaning): and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? (Why don't they believe? Let's keep reading)
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can (this means they can't) come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. (whatever you want that word "draw" to mean, know that if he draws you, you will be saved).
(The clue here is those being raised up on the last day are all the same people, they are those who are "Given", "believe on him", and "drawn". The context is clear that these are all the same people, if we divide the verses then we can make them say what we want)
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. (Talking about that same group)
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. (he either died for every human being or his electm, we shall compare all verses related to the atonement a little later)
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60 Many therefore of his disciples (his disciples left, were they really saved? let's read on), when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. (litteraly!)
64 But there are some of you that believe not(Apparently the disciples that left were never saved, they were not drawn, they were not given, they did not believe). For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. (That Judas!)
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you (speaking about the ones that left), that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him (each person) of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
(It was not given unto them to believe in Christ)
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? (he knew the answer)
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. (These eleven believed and the others didn't, because they were not chosen)
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. (yes, Judas was also chosen to fullfill his task, that is why god chose a devil, because scripture HAD to be fullfilled)
ACTS 1:16 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdverse.pl?file=15858&occ=23)
16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.

8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
Doesn't want any to perish yet mandates those who will perish. Can you say contradiction with the Calvinist view, but not mine?
Well, I do see a contradiction, but not with calvanists, Let's read the context:
2 PETER 3 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=15871&occ=1) (parentheses mine)
1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: (He is writting to the saints, all believers)
2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, (Biblical language for unsaved)
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of (By nature), that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: (They were without excuse)
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now , by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men (the unsaved).
8 But, beloved (believers), be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward (believers not mankind, that is who "us" is reffering to, according to context), not willing that any (any can only mean, any person yet to become saved, as we know all people don't become saved at the same time,This is why the gospel has to be preached to the whole world, then shall the end come) should perish, but that all (God is patient with his children for them to come to repentacne) should come to repentance.
Don't forget God himself is the one who grants repentance, that why we need to teach and preech in meekness.
2 TIMOTHY 2 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=15883&occ=22)
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;


And how about
John 3:17 (New International Version)

17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Whole world. Not a portion of.
No sir, the book of John is clear to the contrary, let's examine some verses in John that deal with who Christ died for and if infact he meant every human being or his elect.
JOHN 3 (PARENTHESES MINE)
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so(so means, In this manner, as he is describing that he must be lifted the same manner Moses lifted)must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth(we already established who would believe on him) in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so(in this manner) loved the world,(what manner?) that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth(could be anyone in the world the father draws) in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (This is true, but, everyone or some?)
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already(WHY?), because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (This is in harmony with what I said before, you don't have to do anything to be condemned)
The question here is, the sacrificial love of christ, was it for the whole world or for his own people? Let's look on.
JOHN 13 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=15892&occ=0)
1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having LOVED HIS OWN WHICH WERE IN THE WORLD, he loved them unto the end.
This passage sheds light on Jn 3:16 as it clearly explains who his love was for.
Furthermore, these next verses also shed some additional light on the subject of Jn 3:16 & 17:
1 JOHN 4
9 In this was manifested(Jesus) the love of God toward us (believers), because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we(believers) might live through him.
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us(believers), and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins(context says believers). 11 Beloved(believers), if God SO LOVED US(God so loved...harmonizes with Jn 3:16 does it not?), we ought also to love one another. Again states God does not want to condemn, but save the world. Yet Calvinists have him only hand picking some by his choice.
Now that I explained it in some detail, you can hopefully understand it better.

Surely our all powerful God could save all if you were to remain true to the fact God is all powerful?
Amen to that!

The problem with Calvinism is it does not allow for real freewill.
Maybe were not on the same page here, I believe in physical free will, we can obey, disobey, kill, accept or reject gifts and so on. But salvation is not a physical act, any physical act we do to become saved is a work.

And how about Satan and the Fallen Angels? Created perfect and they fell, defied God and lost their perfection. Surely God could have created beings that would not have failed, so did he created them destined for damnation?
I don't know, but your answer is probably as good as mine. We don't have very much information on fallen angels and satan to make a dogmatic statement that if they had free will then so do we. Plus we were not created in the image of angels, we were created in the image of God.

God wants none to perish but by freewill many will.
No, by Adams sin and by not being drawn by the father, many will.

ROMANS 8 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14355&occ=0)
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also DID PREDESTINATE to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he DID PREDESTINATE, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

What does it mean to be foreknown of God? Here it is.(4267)
1) to have knowledge before hand
2) to foreknow
a) of those whom God elected to salvation
3) to predestinate

Let us get it straight here. I don't have to reword anything. The verse STATES he foreknew then predestined.
Foreknew THEN predestined THEN called THEN justified THEN glorified. A linear process.
Foreknew THEN predestined THEN called THEN justified THEN glorified. A linear process.
Ok, pick your definition from above and let's see how it holds up.
What do you think it means to foreknow? Make sure you justify your answer with scripture, otherwise it's just your answer.

[/URL] 20 Who verily was FOREORDAINED (4267) (same word as foreknew)before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,


Yep. Foreknew. No version translates it predestined. So you lose on that one.
I don't recalling saying foreknew means predestined, do you?


[URL="http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14394&occ=0"]PROVERBS 16 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14375&occ=0)
4 The LORD hath made ALL THINGS FOR HIMSELF: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
[/QUOTE]Does not say chose by predestination.
That's right, because the Bible doesn't teach that. we covered that up top.

First of all, God did let them be evil. But it his world and his plan, which I personally agree with, so he punished them for their freewill choices.
I could not agree with you more, on this whole statement. You see we are beginning to get somewhere, this is good progress.

The answer is to allow those who would chose him in freewill to be saved he had to clear the slate of the evil that would have blocked them from doing so. A freewill thing.
"clear the slate of evil"? You have to be more specific, as far as I know, evil has been in the world from the beginning till now.

Now, as for freewill in the Bible. You are trying to put a limit on it that does not exist in the Bible.
No, I made my position on free will a while ago. Everything you are showing me is a physical of free will, which I agree with you on.
[/QUOTE]Freewill offering in the OT. Stated quite clearly in the Bible. You deny it existed and yet the Bible says it did. Not only in the offering but in other ways as well.
I denied it existed? You're not being very fair or accurate with your accusations. But if you can locate where I said that, then I'm a liar and I stand corrected.

17The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.Not who God ordered to come, but who wishes to come. That is freewill.
OK, then I would love to see you harmonize this with John 6.
That is clearly speaking to his children, look at the words. The "spirit and the bride" are the believers, "him who hears" are also the believers, remember John? He who has ears to hear let him hear? The free gift is not for the world but for his children. You have to compare all of scripture with the rest of it. You cannot take one verse and says this proves free will, it doesn't work that way.

God is in control
God can withhold people from sinning.
Which does not prove Calvinism.
Oh, I was never trying to prove calvinism, but it does show you who is in control. How does that fit in with your free will theory.

God can also use lying spirits to control people.
Again does not prove Calvinism.
How does this fit your free will theory. Do you think you have absolute liberty to do as you please while on earth? This is not retorical, I would like you to answer.

Christ was not crucified by mans will but by Gods.
ACTS 2:23 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdverse.pl?file=14483&occ=1)
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
False. God foreknew what they would do an planned it in.
OK, then let's see how you arrived at that conclusion from scripture.

(http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdverse.pl?file=14452&occ=1)ACTS 4:27 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdverse.pl?file=14452&occ=1)
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
Does not mean dictated.
So, determined to you means God knew what was going to happen and he planned it in? So all of prophecy fullfilled is because mans free will allowed it to be that way? that's a big coincidence. So satan entered Judas not to control him to betray Jesus but why?
JOHN 13 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=15908&occ=0)
27 And after the sop SATAN ENTERED into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

God does what ever pleases him, not us.
PSALM 115 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14465&occ=4)
3 But our God is IN THE HEAVENS: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
And it pleases him to try to save us all even knowing not all will accept.
You have to start giving up some verses sooner or later.

We are regarded as nothing, God does as he pleases.
DANIEL 4:35 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdverse.pl?file=14471&occ=5)
35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Yep. And he does it for the love of us, who are nothing compared to him.
This verse doen't compare us to God, why do you? It just says, we are regarded as nothing. This verse says to you, he does something for the love of us?
Our salvation is in God's will.
JOHN 1:13 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdverse.pl?file=14487&occ=0)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Yep. Who received him, not forced to accept him.
No, you are adding to the scriptures again, look at how we can harmonize without adding our own words.
JOHN 3 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=15912&occ=31)
27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be GIVEN HIM from heaven

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Born-again.
That's right, born-again. Now read it again" which were born "again", not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
You see how that explains itself. Those that recieve him or that believe him to be born again, by who's will is it?

And note they only mention those to be saved. It is a shock to many of them and totally unacceptable that this means God also determines who goes into the Lake for eternity.
I'm not sure I understand this statement, so I will leave it for now. Please specify.This is the killer for Calvinists. You guys don't think it through. You dwell on who God choses to save but fail to understand that means he is chosing who goes to Hell as well.
While I can't speak for calvinists, Now that I understand your statement, I already covered that numerous times. But just to make sure:
We are all born as people who have sinned(verb). Rom 3:23
Because Adam sinned we are were made sinners. Rom 5:19
Because Adam sinned we are all under condemnation of hell. Rom 5:18
All includes all in these verses, does it not? Who has babies going to hell? Not God, Adam. Although I'm sure he did not do it on purpose, but the blame falls on him not God. By your statements, it seems it is you who have God sending babies to hell.

You are doing what all Calvinists I debate do. You shut down when forced to confront that reality.
I have not done so yet. But on a lighter note, you should try not to come across like your mad at me, I don't want to discourage anyone from participating, but I'm afraid it might if they think we can't get along. If I am assuming wrong about how you feel, then I apologize.

God could save everyone by your doctrine. But he doesn't. I agree.

He deliberately picks some for Heaven and some for Hell. You have a cold, unjust and arbitrary god. You keep reiterating your same statements.

Attempts at saying we are sinners and thus deserve it therefore justifying only some being picked to be saved is illogical and ill thought out.
Or you could look at it this way, why would God pick any of us? You see, what seems logical & illogical to us doesn't matter. It has to be whatever God says in his word.
Trying to justify it does not change the fact God allowed sin nature into us and then picks whom he saves. And that means he picks who goes to Hell.
If it is the picking who goes to hell part that bothers you, then my evidences should put you now at ease. But if you still don't like the picking who goes to heaven part, then I'm still willing to listen.

Doesn't the Bible clearly state that no one seeks him?[/QUOTE]No. It does not say that.
Yes, it does say that.
Romans 3:11 (New International Version)


11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.


But your doctrine is unjust, arbitrary and cold. You have God picking who he will not save and sending them to the Lake at Judgment Day and you call that just.
Again, sir, the Bible does not say that God picks who he will send to hell, if Calvin did, then I apologize, I never said it or implied it. If I remember correctly, it was your way of puttings things together that made you arrive at that conclusion. I gave you the scriptures.

Never had a way out, never a chance and yet it is just to condemn them as being responsible for what they did not bring upon themselves, meaning sin nature.
Absolutely, 100%, no question about it. Jesus Christ is our only way out.

As with all Calvinists that is a concept you don't like and try to explain away but never can.
I'm pretty sure I did, many times over.

Yep. Born that way via sin nature that God allowed to happen and then not provide any hope of salvation to unless he hand picks them.
Being picked is the hope of salvation.

YOU condemn people for what that did not create or cause in themselves and then try to call it just. You totally fail on that point.
Sir, I will never be able to convince you logically because your logic is yours and mine is mine. Put that aside and lets just talk scriptures.

It is not just to condemn someone for being what God allowed them to be unless they have a way to cease being what condemns.
It may not seem fair to you, but it is just:
Romans 9:19-21 (New International Version)


19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=9&verse=19&end_verse=21&version=31&context=context#fen-NIV-28161a)] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

We are all born as people who have sinned. Rom 3:23But not because of their fault. Because of Adam and Eve. You are holding them accountable for sins of others.
God holds them accountable, remember, the wages of sin...?
Because adam sinned we are were made sinners. Rom 5:19Even that baby you would send to Hell who didn't have a clue what they did was wrong.
Let me ask you, does this verse exclude that baby or any?
Because Adam sinned we are all under condemnation of hell. Rom 5:18But God gives us an escape route. YOU take that away and God rolls the dice on who goes to Hell and who does not. Yet you call that justice?
Jesus Christ is our "escape route", yes, we agree there. What we don't seem to agree on is this free will issue.

(http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14532&occ=0)ROMANS 9 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14532&occ=0)
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is NOT OF HIM THAT WILLETH, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
And God would show his mercy on all. Why do you think God bothered creating Israel? To bring salvation to the whole world.
Feel free to post your verses so we can compare.

This is why even babies can be saved, because of his gift of grace and his mercy.And again you do not complete the statement. Can be saved or can be condemned. Say it all. The baby is being deliberately condemned without hope in your view by God.
You should not keep adding to my sentences either, you keep making me say things I am not, If you feel they are implied, then just state it that way. Let me reword my own statement for clarity:
We are all under sentence of condemnation through no fault of our own, but Adams, I am greatfull for Gods mercy, gift of grace and salvation that is bestowed upon whom he draws,for his purpose, everyone not chosen must still pay the penalty for Adams sin. Thus the Bible tells me so. This is why even babies can be saved, because of his gift of grace and his mercy.

You strip that away. God sent his son for ALL the world, not some. God wants NONE to perish. You make a lie of those verse.
No, I showed you how they harmonize with the Bible and how you are misunderstanding them.

[/QUOTE]You are practicing Calvinism. YOU make us robots with pre programed scripts. You make this life meaningless.
I can't make you do anything, for someone who hates calvinism so much it sure has a hold on you. I'm willing not to dwell on Mr. calvin if you feel the same way. Let's just focus on the verses we have infront of us and go from there.

God could have just created some in Heaven and some in Hell and been done with it per your thinking. After all, we have no say in the matter.
(http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14542&occ=0)ROMANS 9 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14542&occ=0)
21 Hath not the potter POWER OVER THE CLAY, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Yep. The potter shapes but when kilned some pots crack no matter how good a job the potter does. It is the material of the pot that ultimate dictates success or failure.
Really? I never heard it that way before. Let me see if I can understand your reazoning here:
_Hath not the potter POWER OVER THE CLAY?
I believe your answer was, Yep? If I'm wrong you can correct me.
_"of the same lump" Now you said,"It is the material of the pot that ultimate dictates success or failure". And the bible says" of the same lump" meaning same material right?
_"to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour" And you said "The potter shapes but when kilned some pots crack no matter how good a job the potter does".
So in your theory, is it the kiln that determines the outcome of the the things made by the potter and not the potter himself?
You should rethink that explanation, it is completely contradictory to the verse. And that is no way to interpret scripture.

Any potter knows what the illustration is saying. Apparently you do not.
I will await your responses. Please use more scripture and less verbal attacks. it helps keep each post shorter. Just stick to the facts and give me sripture for what ever biblical declaration you are making. If you think I misunderstood a verse, then please correct me with scripture and don't just tell me I lost on that one and move on. I have to go to bed now, it's 5:30 am. Good morning sir. :hug: God bless.

[CoreIssue]

I am cutting out the verses you agree do not say what you posted them to claim or support or where you simply repeated a claim as if repetition proves something.
That is not grace. A gift can be rejected as many do reject it.
Can you show me from scripture, how the gift of grace is similar to a physical gift?
Nothing in the Bible gives two meanings to the word grace. There is only one hence it applies to both spiritual and physical. The same word is used in all contexts, not two different ones.
Under your formula only some are mandated saved and the rest are mandated damned.
Does not matter how many semantical efforts you make cloaked in Biblical verses for God to mandate who is saved means he also mandates who is lost.

You keep seeing only what you want to see from my verses and statements, so you can make such claims as these. Don't lose focus. There are no semantical efforts here, I am giving you scripture pertinent to each topic we are discussing. If you feel that because God chooses those who are saved then according to "logic" (your logic) that means he has to choose or "mandate" those who go to hell, then that's your choice to feel that way, but don't make it mine. I will keep telling you, a many times as necessary, what I keep trying to tell you:
We are all born as people who have sinned(verb). Rom 3:23
Because Adam sinned we are were made sinners. Rom 5:19
Because Adam sinned we are all under condemnation of hell. Rom 5:18
Is that not self explanatory? Am I manipulating these verses to make it say something they don't? If so please explain.
The fact is, because of Adams sin we are all headed to hell, God did not have to choose who goes there, as you seem to imply, that was all the work of Adam, he chose for you.

And that is a totally illogical statement.

If Adam chose we go to Hell then all go to Hell by your logic. If God can save some he can save all but CHOOSES not to, thus is condemning other to Hell by failing to act.

Who allowed this sin condition to exist? God. Don't try to gloss over that as you are doing.

Inaction by those able to act IS an action.

Your trying to escape that simple reality and you cannot. God, by your belief is in total control of every outcome. Hence he IS responsible for those going to Hell in your thinking. There is no 'but for' clause in your foundational basics.
Totally erroneous to say we are sinners thus it is just.
We are sinners, and it is just. By the way what do you mean when you say just? I'm thinking you mean fair by your statements, if so, then you should say "fair" to not confuse the debate. You know that the condemnation of sinners is absolutely just (justice). It doesn't matter if in your eyes you did or did not do something to deserve hell, the fact is, because of Adam we are all condemned.
ROMANS 6 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=15711&occ=11)
23 For the WAGES of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
ROMANS 5 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=15713&occ=3)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to CONDEMNATION; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Read your own verses!
Romans 5:18 (New International Version)


18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

For ALL men. Not some. God sent his son for the Whole World, not part of it.

He brought it for all as a gift, not a mandate for some. And being a gift ALL have the freewill right to accept or reject.

Your own verses reject you doctrine and support mine.
We are born with sin natures due to absolutely nothing we have done to deserve it.
I agree.
One cannot be condemned for what they did not do.
Thus to not give a way out is to mandate we are damned.
Again, if that is how you see things, fine, but don't proclaim it as gospel, for it is merely your opinion.
It is the Gospel.

Your message is pointless. Why bother? Those God wants will be saved whether they want it or not. Nice little robots.
In all my debates with Calvinist this issue puts them up a a wall. They cannot answer it, justify it or logically deny it. You have God sending babies to Hell by his choice, not one else.
Well, with all do respect, I answered it, justified it, and as far as logic, neither your nor mine have anything to do with understanding the Bible. It seems you need something to be logical in your eyes in order for you to make heads or tails of it.
You didn't answer. Just said God's will and nothing more and ran away from the issue.

Those going to Hell in your view could have been saved but were not. Period. That makes it unjust because you stated they are damned because of Adam's sin, not their own. Yea, justice.
Not justice, which means one pays for what they do, but condemnation for a nature imposed upon them by Adam and Eve that God permitted to happen and knew would happen, making him responsible, not the babies.
God's justice, demands condemnation, we don't have to do anything to be condemned,
Wow! God just damns people for no reason. Good definition of justice.

Freewill action results in a predestined outcome.
Great, then I suppose you won't mind giving me a verse that supports your statement. That is, without adding to the word "foreknew" to change its meaning.
No need to add it. Already in Romans 8 as a stated condition.
The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 1670 Browse Lexicon (http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Greek/browse.cgi?number=1670&version=kjv) Original WordWord Origin e&lkwprobably akin to (138 (http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=138&version=kjv)) Transliterated WordTDNT (http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1670&version=kjv#Legend) Entry Helkuo2:503,227 Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech hel-koo'-o Verb Definition


to draw, drag off
metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impe

Forgive me, I see we differ in the way we arrive at word meanings from the Bible. A dictionary definition vs a Biblical one. I use lexicons but I always double check its definitions with the Bible because they aren't always accurate. Lets see how we can understand the unclear words in light of the clear ones as the Bible defines them, this word (1670) appears 8 times. To understand what a word or phrase means, we have to compare scripture with scripture (1 Cor 2:13), and because the english word changes from Bible to Bible, it is the context in which the word or phrase is found that helps us find the correct meaning for the unclear verses. In this case, "draw" is used as follows:
None of your verses are dealing with election. They are dealing with the context of a physical action. Not a proof for your claims at all.
Quote:
8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
Doesn't want any to perish yet mandates those who will perish. Can you say contradiction with the Calvinist view, but not mine?
Well, I do see a contradiction, but not with calvanists, Let's read the context:

He is talking to saints, so no need to address the first part of the chapter.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward(believers not mankind, that is who "us" is reffering to, according to context),
OK. He just talked about what is happening with all in the world, saved and unsaved.
not willing that any (any can only mean, any person yet to become saved, as we know all people don't become saved at the same time,This is why the gospel has to be preached to the whole world, then shall the end come)
False. Indeed get all the saved out but it remains he does not want anyone in the world to perish, even though the evil ones will. Any does not man some, it means all. The word used is any, not some, and is consistent with the other verses you also try to change the meaning from all to only a part there of.

If God meant only some, his chose only and such he would not have consistently used all encompassing words.
should perish, but that all (God is patient with his children for them to come to repentacne)
Nope. Says all again, another totally inclusive word.
should come to repentance.
should, not will.
Don't forget God himself is the one who grants repentance, thatwhy we need to teach and preech in meekness.
False. He accepts repentance. He does not mandate it to some.
And how about
Quote:
John 3:17 (New International Version)

17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Whole world. Not a portion of.
No sir, the book of John is clear to the contrary, let's examine some verses in John that deal with who Christ died for and if infact he meant every human being or his elect.
Nope. Yet again you defy the meaning of the word. World, not some in the world.
JOHN 3 (PARENTHESES MINE)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so(so means, In this manner, as he is describing that he must be lifted the same manner Moses lifted)must the Son of man be lifted up:
Does nothing for your doctrine.
15 That whosoever believeth(we already established who would believe on him) in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Now finish the thought. Israel had to LOOK UPON THE SERPENT BY FREEWILL TO BE SAVED. We have to look to Christ in freewill. You just lost this argument.
16 For God so(in this manner) loved the world,(what manner?) that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth(could be anyone in the world the father draws) in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
False. You just tossed in draw in definance of the word meaning of world and the example of Moses and the Serpent.

ALL of Israel who looked were saved, not the chosen few. All who look to Christ are saved, not the designated few. And in both cases who could look EVERYONE need salvation.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (This is true, but, everyone or some?)
It is an all inclusive statement. No exclusion clause as to whom God offered salvation. That is what you miss. Offering and accepting are two different issues.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already(WHY?),
There is no salvation without believing.
because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (This is in harmony with what I said before, you don't have to do anything to be condemned)
No. It is not. You condemn people for being born with sin natures with no hope of escape, which is not just. Salvation is the hope given to the world for all to escape so it is just to condemn those who reject it, which is just.

You keep redefining words and terms form all to some. You cannot do that.
The question here is, the sacrificial love of christ, was it for the whole world or for his own people? Let's look on.
JOHN 13 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=15892&occ=0)
1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having LOVED HIS OWN WHICH WERE IN THE WORLD, he loved them unto the end.
Which has nothing to do with offering salvation to those who did not love him and being rejected.

And who exactly is he talking about in this chapter. His Apostles!
This passage sheds light on Jn 3:16 as it clearly explains who his love was for.
Furthermore, these next verses also shed some additional light on the subject of Jn 3:16 & 17:
1 JOHN 4
9 In this was manifested(Jesus) the love of God toward us (believers), because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we(believers) might live through him.
Add all your qualifiers you want and it does not change what is said.
7Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20john%204;&version=31;#fen-NIV-30598c)] our sins.
Adding verses 7 & 8 show your interpretation is wrong. Clearly says, once again, he sent his son into the world so that those who loves him will be born again those who do not will not.

Of course his sacrifice only atones those who love him. But that does not change the fact that once again it says sent to the world, not just the chosen.

And in total compliance with Romans 8 where there is first love and then predestination. Consistent.

I don't have to play with word meanings as you do. I don't have to jump elsewhere to try to redefine what another verse states, as you do.
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us(believers), and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins(context says believers). 11 Beloved(believers), if God SO LOVED US(God so loved...harmonizes with Jn 3:16 does it not?), we ought also to love one another.

Does not support you. He sent his Son for all but we are the beneficiaries because we repented. And if he gave us that great of a gift we need to give back.

Nothing but nothing says a single word about just coming for some. But most assuredly says only some will accept.

Surely our all powerful God could save all if you were to remain true to the fact God is all powerful?
Amen to that!
So you admit your view of God makes him arbitrary and cruel. Good.
The problem with Calvinism is it does not allow for real freewill.
Maybe were not on the same page here, I believe in physical free will, we can obey, disobey, kill, accept or reject gifts and so on. But salvation is not a physical act, any physical act we do to become saved is a work.

There only one word and meaning for freewill, not two.
And how about Satan and the Fallen Angels? Created perfect and they fell, defied God and lost their perfection. Surely God could have created beings that would not have failed, so did he created them destined for damnation?
I don't know, but your answer is probably as good as mine. We don't have very much information on fallen angels and satan to make a dogmatic statement that if they had free will then so do we. Plus we were not created in the image of angels, we were created in the image of God.

Cop out answer.

In your belief God controls every outcome he either created them to be perfect or to fall. Yet another Calvinist who cannot handle the question.
God wants none to perish but by freewill many will.
No, by Adams sin and by not being drawn by the father, many will.
So people are responsible for Adam's sin, not their own. And you call that justice.
Yep. Foreknew. No version translates it predestined. So you lose on that one.
I don't recalling saying foreknew means predestined, do you?

Yep. You did.
ROMANS 8 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14355&occ=0)
29 For whom [B]he did foreknow, he also DID PREDESTINATE to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he DID PREDESTINATE, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

What does it mean to be foreknown of God? Here it is.(4267)
1) to have knowledge before hand
2) to foreknow
a) of those whom God elected to salvation
3) to predestinate


Im sure you pick #1 to be the definitive definition here. Then you will probably reword it this way: to have knowledge before hand of who would choose him. The problem is we don't get to pick how we want to define it, the Bible does. What is the context speaking of? Salvation according to God from the beginning of it, to the end. This next verse speaks of christ being foreordained or chosen as the NIV puts it. They are the same words.
That is predestination no matter how you slice or dice it.

First of all, God did let them be evil. But it his world and his plan, which I personally agree with, so he punished them for their freewill choices.
I could not agree with you more, on this whole statement. You see we are beginning to get somewhere, this is good progress.
So your seeing your errors? My belief has not change one speck on this issue.

There are not different definitions for freewill spiritually and physically.
Quote:
17The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.
Not who God ordered to come, but who wishes to come. That is freewill.
OK, then I would love to see you harmonize this with John 6.
That is clearly speaking to his children, look at the words. The "spirit and the bride" are the believers, "him who hears" are also the believers, remember John? He who has ears to hear let him hear? The free gift is not for the world but for his children. You have to compare all of scripture with the rest of it. You cannot take one verse and says this proves free will, it doesn't work that way.
No problem. John 6 says those the Father sent and the Father sends those who seek.

Perfectly in keeping with those who love being predestined to find.

And Revelation says those who WISH to come. That is freewill. Want to come and being Thirsty are unsaved seekers. Once there you aren't wishing to be there or thirsty because you have the water of life.
Again does not prove Calvinism.
How does this fit your free will theory. Do you think you have absolute liberty to do as you please while on earth? This is not retorical, I would like you to answer.
No. God sets limits. As in your freewill not to eat, but you will die.
False. God foreknew what they would do an planned it in.
OK, then let's see how you arrived at that conclusion from scripture.

Quote:
ACTS 4:27 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdverse.pl?file=14452&occ=1)
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
Your problem is your trying to make everything that happens from an absolute.

Yes, God's Plan is absolute, but within it there are flexibilities. He will stop one from sinning for his purpose or cause another to sin. But those are couched in foreknowledge, not forcing one to be saved or damned, in example.

Still ironclad those who he know will love him will be predestined all the way to glorification. That is not total predestination or total freewill. One stems for the other via foreknowledge.
False. God foreknew what they would do an planned it in.
OK, then let's see how you arrived at that conclusion from scripture.

Quote:
ACTS 4:27 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdverse.pl?file=14452&occ=1)
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
Does not mean dictated.
So, determined to you means God knew what was going to happen and he planned it in? So all of prophecy fullfilled is because mans free will allowed it to be that way? that's a big coincidence. So satan entered Judas not to control him to betray Jesus but why?
JOHN 13 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=15908&occ=0)
27 And after the sop SATAN ENTERED into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

All plans are based upon knowledge, facts and goals. Never been different. So one determines/decides.

Your problem is you see it as being God dictating how all the pieces act and work and where they end up. No freewill in that at all.

Judas was entered like Eve was tempted and other people are possessed... they allow it and so does God. It served his plan for Christ to be our sacrifice for sin.
God does what ever pleases him, not us.
PSALM 115 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=14465&occ=4)
3 But our God is IN THE HEAVENS: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. And it pleases him to try to save us all even knowing not all will accept.
You have to start giving up some verses sooner or later.
I already gave you verses and word meanings.

Yet another classical demand of false doctrine, demand phrasing exactly as they will accept but don't put the same demand on themselves, they are quite willing to change word meanings and interpret.

As in this post alone I have shown you meanings using your own verses to refute you.
Quote:
We are regarded as nothing, God does as he pleases.
DANIEL 4:35 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdverse.pl?file=14471&occ=5)
35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Yep. And he does it for the love of us, who are nothing compared to him.
This verse doesn't compare us to God, why do you? It just says, we are regarded as nothing. This verse says to you, he does something for the love of us?
Sorry, your reading skills are lacking. It says we are regarded as nothing, and that is in comparison to God.

Do you disagree with God loving us, as in Romans 8? I assumed that was a given even for a Calvinist. Guess I was wrong.
Yep. Who received him, not forced to accept him.
No, you are adding to the scriptures again, look at how we can harmonize without adding our own words.
JOHN 3 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=15912&occ=31)
27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be GIVEN HIM from heaven
Nor does it say it is force on you either.

The Son was given by the Father. Do you dispute that?

Born-again is given by the Blood of Christ, who is from Heaven? Do you dispute that?

I am harmonizing with the verses that state those realities. As with Romans 8 where God gives from Heaven to those of us who love him.

Given, not forced, is the operative word.

As for whose will it is, already covered. God's will is none perish and he sent his Son to the whole world for that purpose. Out there for the whole world to accept or reject. Not forced, as the verses I gave you state, but offered.

I am not mad at you. But it is frustrating you refuse to use actual word meanings and rules of grammar to correctly read verses. Or try to use another verse to change a verses stated context. Hard to debate someone who reads via doctrine instead of definitions and context. Impossible, really.

Or those that say God determines it all UNTIL the issue of who send people to Hell arises. Then it is Adam, but Adam's sins are Adam's to pay for, not a babies. But you call it justice.

You have no reasons for who God saves, just he picks some and not others, but reject the idea that is arbitrary.

You cannot deal with Fallen Angels. Sinless yet sinned and fell. By your doctrine God had to create it to be that way, but you won't admit it because that would be admitting God created beings on purpose for Hell. But to say they chose says there is freewill, which destroys your thinking of freewill for humans.

Nope. My frustration is you will not think it out since that would tell you you are wrong.

[AIEC]

[QUOTE=CoreIssue;37345]I am cutting out the verses you agree do not say what you posted them to claim or support or where you simply repeated a claim as if repetition proves something.
Sorry, I had to keep repeating my claims to answer your repetitive statements. Plus I see that you cut out alot more than you wanted to deal with.
After reading your responses, It is clear that you do not want to Biblicaly debate this issue, but only try to rationalize it in your head. I have refuted every verse you have posted to prove your theory, but you don't seem to care. You clearly refuse to allow this to be a Biblical debate. This being the case, you will always be right according to your logic alone. You are clearly unwilling to put in the time to demonstrate from scripture every statement you make, after all, if you are claiming a statement you think the Bible agrees with you on, then you should have no problem posting each and every verse. Every statement I have made to you, that I believe the bible teaches, I follow with scripture, to show you where I got it from. Why can't you do the same? Do you expect me to take your word for it? Do you expect your readers to take your word for it? Should you want that? I can see that all you want to do is comment on how I'm completely out on left field and haved proved nothing to you, and that's ok by me. I just thought we had a mutual understanding as to the proper way to debate. I can see that this is not benefiting anyone. I show you all my evidences and you show me comments, not the way I would have thought it was going to happen, but each person is different I guess. By the way, I'm not sure if you are aware regarding the point of debating, it is not to be declared the winner, but to edify all those reading and trying to follow along. I'm sure you will erase my posts (but hope you don't) so that all readers can see what happened here. I really was looking forward to this, but I guess you had other plans in mind. And so I declare you the victor, your unkind answers and lack of respect for me as a fellow christian make it clear that you never had any intentions of debating but just reiterating how I am wrong and you are right. If you ever change your mind, e-mail me, and I would love to pick it up again, as long as we have a mutual understanding. I sincerely ask that you review all those verses you did not comment on, on this thread and the age of accountability thread. There has to be a reason, as only you would know.
With that said, I would like to leave you with some verses to meditate upon that I have come across. And I believe if you follow their instructions, you will be a better man for it. God Bless you sir.
EPHESIANS 4 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=16854&occ=66)
29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister GRACE unto the hearers.
COLOSSIANS 4 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=16854&occ=72)
6 Let your speech be alway with GRACE, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.
TITUS 2 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=16858&occ=6)
2 That the AGED men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.


This is the verse that led me to back out, no offence meant toward you.
TITUS 3 (http://cgi.godsview.com/cgi-bin/rcdenig/pdchap.pl?file=16863&occ=35)
9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

[CoreIssue]

Yep. When without answers attack the other person.

No. I won't delete them. They stand witness to the fact you didn't answer the challenges, just repeated what you said before. I posted definitions that refuted your position, and you ignored them. I pointed out where you claimed some the verses said all and whole world.

No, you cannot take a verse that says one thing firm and modify it by posting another verse that says what you believe you can spin. All verses retain their stated meanings and those meaings must work together with other verses.

So, when the verse says all or whole world posting verses whose context and is a smaller group does not change all and whole world to some. It just means one part is talking about everyone while others address just a group.

Or when Revelation says those who thirst and wish for Christ will be given living water it does not mean they are already saved. Else they would already have the living water.

The problem is that Calvinism cannot handle the fact that they are thirsty and seeking while unsaved. That is totally impossible in your doctrine.

God wanting none in the whole world to perish means exactly that. You cannot spin it to some in part of the world.

Son sent to the whole world does not mean part of the world.

You never dealt with that. Instead you jumped elsewhere and tried to force a change of meaning on what was said.

So of course you don't read literally. You cannot do so and get your meaning out of it. No amount of trying to say it is spiritual language changes that reality.

I said nothing nothing corrupt and gave you patience until you revealed your hidden agenda. And I defend Sound Doctrine as commanded to do so. I rebuked you as the Bible says to do when one pushed unsound doctrine.

Finally, or course my words stung you. God's word is sharper than any two edged sword and salt, the truth, burns when in an open wound.

[Willy]

Ephesians 1:12

in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.


Ephesians 1:13

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,... transition ... what's happening here?

:safe:

[CoreIssue]

Ephesians 1:12

in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.


Ephesians 1:13

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,... transition ... what's happening here?

:safe:
Freewill choice.

Hope and hearing, then believing and finally being sealed with the Holy Spirit, is a process, a transition, as you said.

Not even compatible with Calvinism. No room for hope in Calvinism, you are or you are not saved.

[Willy]

... absolutely freewill ... there is more here ... transition from "us" to "you"


Ephesians 1:9-12

And he[fn4] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,

to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment–to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

In him we were also chosen,[fn5] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.


Ephesians 3:1-5

For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles–

Surely you have heard about the administration of God's grace that was given to me for you,

that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly.

In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,

which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets.


... and then ...


Ephesians 1:13-14

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession–to the praise of his glory.

... help me out here ... :):

[CoreIssue]

Not sure what you are looking for but try this.

Per Romans 8 God knew who would love him and thus predestined us to conform to Christ by including us in Christ.

To accomplish that he revealed his mystery to us by his grace and gave us hope in him. Upon choosing to repent his Holy Spirit joins us to him and thus we become us in him.

That guarantees our hope in him will be fulfilled in our inheritance to come as joint heirs with Israel in Christ, our brother, savior and king. And conforming to him not only perfects our spirits but our bodies as well, meaning glorified.

This all reveals his plan was always to produce a people to spend eternity with him who want to be there by freewill love. Not robots, strangers or anything but family, with God the Father and Christ our brother and the Holy Spirit which joins us all together. True perfect love, family and life.

That truth and plan so far transcends what Calvinism says it shows their thinking is of Man but God's allowing freewill choice produces a thing of beauty beyond compare.

[Willy]

Not sure what you are looking for but try this.

... just some thoughts ... answered last.

Per Romans 8 God knew who would love him and thus predestined us to conform to Christ by including us in Christ.... absolutely.

To accomplish that he revealed his mystery to us by his grace and gave us hope in him. Upon choosing to repent his Holy Spirit joins us to him and thus we become us in him.
... that was (is) my experience.


That guarantees our hope in him will be fulfilled in our inheritance to come as joint heirs with Israel in Christ, our brother, savior and king. And conforming to him not only perfects our spirits but our bodies as well, meaning glorified.... yes ... amazing promises ...

This all reveals his plan was always to produce a people to spend eternity with him who want to be there by freewill love. Not robots, strangers or anything but family, with God the Father and Christ our brother and the Holy Spirit which joins us all together. True perfect love, family and life.
... plan from day one ... freewill ... or there is no point.

That truth and plan so far transcends what Calvinism says it shows their thinking is of Man but God's allowing freewill choice produces a thing of beauty beyond compare. ... parallels the husband and wife ... freewill. God has stretched forth His Hand to save. It is no work to take that hand and by His strength be pulled out of the mire.

Romans 8 stands alone in it's truth concerning every saint with respect to election, security and is a tree fully ripened ... full of all manner of good fruit.

I'm wondering here in Ephesians if those that are predestined are the Apostles and Prophets. Paul in the third chapter may be re-enforcing his position in chapter one as the one (first) to be given the mystery. While the letter is written to the "Saints" and so to the believers is it possible that the first "us" he uses in chapter 1:3 and then on until 13 is a reference to the apostles and prophets? ... there is a transition in verse 13 from "us" to "you" ... not a challenge just an interesting observation. I don't think I want to challenge all common thought on this ... although I do feel a bit of a breeze.

Willy:tiphat:

... what a joy it is to be forgiven and accepted. Yes? I wonder sometimes that we don't forgive ourselves as much as God has forgiven us and it becomes a stumbling block for service? We are, after all, considered dead to the law in His Son's death and alive in His Life. That which clings to us is the flesh and it is considered nailed to the cross.

----------- :nod:

[InTheWind]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AIEC
My apologies, I have much studying to do.

At first I thought this was going to be another preach and insult poster, i`m glad to see this is not the case.
My compliments to your honesty AIEC
Welcome to CTZ.
__________________

Whoops wrong again :(
I`ve been watching and keeping track of how people that come here act for a long time. It never fails that those that are preaching false doctrine never take any interest in the rest of the board. When i used to post welcomes to all the new members you could always tell who was going to be trouble because they would not even acknowledge your welcome. They don`t partake in fellowship or chat just dive right in with their preaching and when their doctrine is proven to be wrong they start the personal attacks.
Too me that initial meeting tells volumes about the person right off and has proven to be a reliable sensor in reading a persons intent.
The number of sheep in wolves clothing in the world bothers me a great deal and it seems to be getting worse as it should be seeing we are close to the end of this age. Satan knows his time is short so he has all his workers out in full force trying to deceive.
This post is too anyone that it fits you know who you are and as usual the true colors come through in the end.
As in war the losing side is always bitter. :nod:

[CoreIssue]

Don't feel bad, ITW. This time took longer for me to uncover what was going on. The some babies are saved and some not nailed it. The the refusal to deal with proper word meaning confirmed it.

That is what bothered me the most, the failure to be honest upfront.

We have seen a lot of them, haven't we? ;)