Pre-Adamic Creation

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Origins and Pre-Adamic Creation

Supporting Argumentation

When people crack open the Bible, the most common assumption accepted by Christians is that all matter and energy came into existence with the six days in chapter one of Genesis, thus meaning the earth is merely thousands of years old.

The statement itself is flawed. The Bible does not state the Earth is thousands of years old. This statement comes from the assumption that the six days of creation begin at Genesis 1:1.

This is incorrect. They begin at Genesis 1:3.

Genesis 1:1 says, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

. ur)h te)w eymh te) eyhl) )rB ty$)erB

)rb = Bara' {baw-raw'}

Strong's Number: 01254; TWOT – 278; verb

1. to create, shape, form
a. (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)
1. of heaven and earth
2. of individual man
3. of new conditions and circumstances
4. of transformations
b. (Niphal) to be created
1. of heaven and earth
2. of birth
3. of something new
4. of miracles
c. (Piel)
1. to cut down
2. to cut out
2. to be fat
a. (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat

The Hebrew word, bara, in Genesis 1:1, indicates that what was created was "ex-nihilo" - out of nothing. One should not confuse bara (“he created”) with its synonym `asah (“he made”). In the nothingness, there was only God.

For examples of “made,” consider Exodus 20:11 and Exodus 31:17.

Exodus 20:11: “For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day.”

Ur)h eymh hwhy h&( eymy yK aeK-1( y(ybh ewYB xnYw eB-r$)-1K-t)w eYh-t) . Whe$Dqyw tBh ewy-t) hwhy jreB

Made = h#( = `asah = {aw-saw'}

Strong's Number: 06213; TWOT: 1708,1709; verb

1. to do, fashion, accomplish, make
a. (Qal)
1. to do, work, make, produce 1a
b. to do 1a
c. to work 1a
d. to deal (with) 1a
e. to act, act with effect, effect
1. to make 1a
f. to make 1a
g. to produce 1a
h. to prepare 1a
i. to make (an offering) 1a
j. to attend to, put in order 1a
k. to observe, celebrate 1a
l. to acquire (property) 1a
m. to appoint, ordain, institute 1a
n. to bring about 1a
o. to use 1a
p. to spend, pass
q. (Niphal)
1. to be done
2. to be made
3. to be produced
4. to be offered
5. to be observed
6. to be used
r. (Pual) to be made
2. (Piel) to press, squeeze

Therefore, there is a fundamental difference between God creating, forming, and shaping the heavens and the earth [Bara' in Genesis 1:1] compared to God making, fashioning, and working the heavens and the earth [`asah in Exodus 20:11 and Exodus 31:17].

For the definition of these words “made” and “create,” I will turn to the Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, Tenth Edition.

"Made: (1): (a): FICTITIOUS, INVENTED (b): artificially produced (c): put together of various ingredients (2): assured of success"

"1Create: (1): to bring into existence <God created the heaven and the earth--Genesis 1:1 (AV)> (2): (a): to invest with a new form, office, or rank (b): to produce or bring about by a course of action or behavior (3): CAUSE, OCCATION (4): (a): to produce through imaginative skill (b): DESIGN ~ vi: to make or bring into existence something new"

Again, notice the key difference between (made) "put together of various ingredients" verses (create) "to bring into existence." The term "made" used in the context of "create" is inaccurate, by definition.

Genesis 1:1-2 says: " Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters."

(8764) ewht yenP (8804)-l( j$xw Whbw Wht htyh ur)hw . eyMh yenP tpxrm eyhl) xWrw

Was = hyh = Hayah {haw-yaw}

Strong's Number: 01961; TWOT 491; verb

to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out
1. (Qal)
a. to happen, fall out, occur, take place, come about, come to pass
b. to come about, come to pass
c. to come into being, become
d. to arise, appear, come
e. to become
f. to become
g. to become like
h. to be instituted, be established
i. to be
j. to exist, be in existence
k. to abide, remain, continue (with word of place or time)
l. to stand, lie, be in, be at, be situated (with word of locality)
m. to accompany, be with
2. (Niphal)
a. to occur, come to pass, be done, be brought about
b. to be done, be finished, be gone

Without form = wht = Tohuw {to'-hoo}

Strong's Number: 08414; TWOT: 2494a; Noun Masculine

1. formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness
a. formlessness (of primeval earth)
1. nothingness, empty space
b. that which is empty or unreal (of idols) (fig)
c. wasteland, wilderness (of solitary places)
d. place of chaos
e. vanity

Void = whb = Bohuw {bo'-hoo}

Strong's Number: 0922; TWOT: 205a; Noun Masculine

1. emptiness, void, waste

Deep = ewht = T@howm {teh-home'}

Strong's Number: 08415; from 01949; TWOT: 2495a; Noun

1. deep, depths, deep places, abyss, the deep, sea
a. deep (of subterranean waters)
b. deep, sea, abysses (of sea)
c. primeval ocean, deep
d. deep, depth (of river)
e. abyss, the grave

God created the earth to be inhabited.

In Isaiah 45:18, it says:

"For this is what the LORD says--
he who created the heavens,
he is God;
he who fashioned and made the earth,
he founded it;
he did not create it to be empty,
but formed it to be inhabited--"

But, in Genesis 1:2, the earth was empty. Further, an empty, chaotic [Tohuw] wasteland [Bohuw] in water [T@howm] is not conditions a human civilization can live in.

God’s works are perfect.

Consider Deuteronomy 32:4, where it says of God:

"He is the Rock, his works are perfect,
and all his ways are just."

Therefore, God would have created a perfect earth in Genesis 1:1.

But, in Genesis 1:2, the earth was an empty, chaotic [Tohuw] wasteland [Bohuw] in water [T@howm]. This is not perfection, but the opposite.

Further, God is omnipotent—meaning he can do exactly what he wants without limitation. Therefore, God does not need to create a formless and void earth and then mold it from there, which would imply God has limits and gets tired. Clear academic logic says he can create a perfect earth and perfect universe in one, definitive act.

In addition, Scripture shows that creation was one, definitive act:

Psalm 33
6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made,
their starry host by the breath of his mouth.
9 For he spoke, and it came to be;
he commanded, and it stood firm.

Also, God would have created any inhabitants [company, not race] perfect [perfect physical beings] as well.

God would have no reason to create darkness in his original creation, for there is no darkness in him.

In 1 John 1:5, John says, "This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all."

Further, God himself emits light. And since he would have no reason to create darkness in his original creation [1 John 1:5], he would have let it shine on his creation.

In Revelation 22:5, of the New Jerusalem it says, "There will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light."

Thus, God’s own light would have illuminated his creation.

Next, look at Job 38:6, where God asks Job about creation of earth to make a point:

"On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone--
while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?"

Clearly, this speaks of angels singing while the creation was completed.

When Lucifer ("light bringer") was created, he was the most powerful guardian cherub who guarded God's thrown. However, he became power hungry and wanted to rule heaven himself.

In Ezekiel 28:12-17, when God is giving prophesies against the King of Tyre, God uses Lucifer as an example, saying:

12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:

You were a model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace
from the mount of God,
And I expelled you, O guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.
17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor;” [SEE EZEKIEL ENDNOTE]

[Note: These verses are clearly not speaking of the king of Tyre because:

1) He was not perfect [verse 12], but only human.
2) He was not in the Garden of Eden [verse 13].
3) He is not a cherub [verse 14].
4) He did not walk the mount of God [verse 14].
5) He did not walk the mount of God, so he could not be driven from it [verse 16].]

- - - - -

Ezekiel 28:14:
“You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.”

Note: The term "fiery stones" most likely refers to the Seraphim [ref. "Seraph," meaning "to burn"] who guarded God's throne while Lucifer guarded God's throne as a powerful "capstone" of a protective formation, or "structure" [ref. Isaiah 6:1-8; Ezekiel 1:1-28]. Hence, the terminology of "walk[ing] among the fiery stones" means "walking among the Seraphim."

- - - - -

Lucifer wanted to be higher than God.

Examine Isaiah 14:12-15, where God related the king of Babylon to Lucifer and his fall while talking to Isaiah,

12 "How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!

13 You said in your heart,
'I will ascend into heaven;
I will raise my throne above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.'
15 But you are brought down to the grave,
to the depths of the pit."

[Note the significance of the "morning star(s)" is clearly that of angels created in the original creation, as referred to in Job 38:6.]
[Note 2: These verses cannot refer to the king of Babylon because the king did not ascend from the earth in order to be cast down [verse 12].]

- - - - -
Isaiah 14:12:

"How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!”

T(Dgn rx$ lelyeh eymm Tlpn jye) . eywG-l $elwx ur)1

Morning star = llyh = Heylel {hay-lale'}

Strong's Number: 01966; from 01984 (in the sense of brightness); TWOT: 499a; Noun Masculine

Lucifer = "light-bearer"
1. shining one, morning star, Lucifer
a. of the king of Babylon and Satan (fig.)
2. 'Helel' describing the king of Babylon

- - - - -

Then Lucifer led one third of the angels in Heaven in his rebellion.

Consider Revelation 12:3-4, where it says, "Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and seven horns and seven crowns on his heads. His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth." [SEE REVELATION ENDNOTE]

Given the verse of Job 38:6, with the "stars" singing together, and Satan as the "dragon," and the flinging of stars to the earth by the "dragon's tail" (Satan’s act), it is clear that a third of the angels followed Satan and where cast down with him.

Revelation 12:7 states, "And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.” [SEE REVELATION ENDNOTE]

Lucifer (Satan) was defeated and cast down.

Revelation 12:8-9 continues, “But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him." [SEE REVELATION ENDNOTE]

In Luke 10:18, Jesus, the Son of God himself said, "I saw Satan fall like lightening from heaven."

In Isaiah 14:12, God said:
"How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!

[Note the significance of the "morning star(s)" is clearly that of angels created in the original creation, as referred to in Job 38:6.]

[Note 2: A key observation in Isaiah 14:12 is that Lucifer "laid low" the nations. For the context and meaning of laid low, consider the following the following verses:

Isaiah 25:12, where Isaiah says:

“He will bring down your high fortified walls
and lay them low;
he will bring them down to the ground,
to the very dust.”

Job 14:10, where Job says:

“But man dies and is laid low;
he breathes his last and is no more.”

And Psalm119:25, where Daleth sings:

“I am laid low in the dust;
renew my life according to your word.”

Clearly, by these verses, the definition and context of laid low is usually destroying, defeating, putting down, etc. Thus, Lucifer, who once defeated, destroyed, put down, etc. nations was himself put down and humiliated before the nations and kings that knew who he was and what he did.]

In Ezekiel 28:17-19, God continues:
17 “So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.
18 By your many sins and
dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made fire come out of you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes
on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.
19 All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
You have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.” [SEE EZEKIEL ENDNOTE]

[Note: In conjunction with the content of Ezekiel 28:12-17 pointed out, these verses cannot refer to the king of Tyre because:

1) He never ascended from the earth, so he could not be thrown down [verse 17].
2) God never set the person of the king of Tyre on fire [past tense] [verse 18].]

Notice the reference to “nations” and “all who were watching.” This is a clear illusion to the perfect physical beings that inhabited the earth. Further, the fallen Lucifer was humiliated before them.

As Lucifer and his followers were cast down, God, out of great anger, followed them and directed great wrath towards them and the perfect beings on earth that rebelled as well.

Next, consider Psalm 18:7-15, where it says:

7 "The earth trembled and quaked,
and the foundations of the mountains shook;
they trembled because he was angry
8 Smoke rose from his nostrils;
consuming fire came from his mouth,
burning coals blazed out of it.
9 He parted the heavens and came down;
dark clouds were under his feet.
10 He mounted the cherubim and flew;
he soared on the wings of the wind.
11 He made darkness his covering, his canopy around him--
The dark rain clouds in the sky.
12 Out of the brightness of his presence clouds advanced,
with hailstones and bolts of lightening.
13 The LORD thundered from heaven;
the voice of the Most High resounded.
14 He shot his arrows and scattered the enemies,
great bolts of lightening and routed them.
15 The valleys of the sea were exposed
and the foundations of the earth laid bare
at your rebuke, O LORD,
at the blast of breath from your nostrils."

[Notes: Psalm Chapter 18 subject: David's persecution from Saul and others and the fact that God delivered him from the situation. The subject then is really God's judgment on the enemies which resulted in David's deliverance.

Verses 1-3 - His devotion and trust in the Lord
Verses 4-5 - David encounters a death crisis
Verse 6 - But he trusts in God for deliverance
Verses 16-19 - David records the Lord's deliverance from his enemies and from the death crisis.
But in verses 7-15 - we have a record of God's judgment in a different situation.

Here, the language changes totally. Here there is no mention of people. Here one must look beyond David's life to find the reference. Even if one were to symbolize the passage as a whole, it can find no correlation to David's deliverance.]

Notice God is attacking "enemies." If Lucifer and the angels that followed him were defeated and being cast down, then who was God directing his offensive wrath [“arrows and lightening”] towards? Logic says the perfect beings on earth rebelling against God.

Also, consider Job 26:11, where Job said:

"The pillars of the heavens quake,
aghast at his rebuke."

Also, consider Job 9:5, where Job said:

"He moves the mountains without their knowing it
and overturns them in his anger.
He shakes the earth from its place
and makes its pillars tremble."

After God came down from heaven and unleashed his wrath, he observed the devastation and hovered in the position that it is in on Genesis 1:2.

In Jeremiah 4:23-26, it says:

23 "I looked at the earth, and it was formless and empty;
and at the heavens, and their light was gone.
24 I looked at the mountains, and they were quaking;
all the hills were swaying.
25 I looked, and there were no people;
every bird in the sky had flown away.
26 I looked, and the fruitful land was a desert;
All its towns lay in ruins before the LORD,
before his fierce anger."

[Note the following:

1) The unique past tense phraseology "formless and empty" within the future tense phraseology in Jeremiah 4 is the key. This is a reference to a different time in the past that God had seen firsthand.

2) “All [the earth’s] towns lay in ruins” and “there were no people.” This indicates total destruction of civilization and total absence of physical beings. Further, “every bird in the sky had flown away,” indicating all birds had died, or been wiped out. Note that in no point in human history had all people or any animals had been wiped out by God.

Therefore, it could only apply to the "formless and empty" state in Genesis 1:2.]

After Lucifer and his angels were cast down [Revelation 12:8-9, In Luke 10:18, Ezekiel 28:17-19, Isaiah 14:12] and God’s wrath towards the earth [Psalm 18:7-15, Jeremiah 4:23, Job 9:5, Job 26:1] was finished, the earth was in the state described in Genesis 1:2 [Psalm 18:15]. One can logically deduce that the perfect physical beings who had rebelled against God were killed and their spirits roamed free [Psalm 18:14].

Because of the failed rebellion, Lucifer [Ezekiel 28:15-16] and the angels that followed him [Revelation 12:3-4] had brought sin down to the earth [Ezekiel 28:17, Revelation 12:9]. And the sight of sin disgusted God, so he clothed it in darkness to hide it from his view.

Consider Job 38:9, where God questions Job about the creation of earth to make a point:

“Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,
when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,”

Also, Psalms 8:3, where it says:

"When I consider your heavens,
the work of your fingers,
the moon and the stars,
which you have set in place,"

[Also remember that in Jeremiah 4:23 the heavens had “lost their light,” so the darkness was consuming creation. God then reformatted the darkness into the heavens above earth.]

During the recreation of earth, the angels that followed Lucifer were bound by chains and placed in a dark place when God recreated the earth beginning in Genesis 1:3.

Jude 1:6 states, "And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day."

In 2 Peter 2:4, the apostle Peter said, "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them into hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;"

After the Lucifer led rebellion, God had to do something with the perfect physical beings that fought for him. Ezekiel 1:4-28 and Revelation 4:6-9 speaks of unidentified “living creatures” working for God and in Heaven. These unidentified “living creatures” could be the perfect physical creatures that fought for God during the Pre-Adamic war.

The Bible speaks of unidentified “creatures.”

Ezekiel 1:4-28 says, "I looked, and I saw a windstorm coming out of the north--an immense cloud with flashing lightning and surrounded by brilliant light. The center of the fire looked like glowing metal, and in the fire was what looked like four living creatures. In appearance their form was that of a man, but each of them had four faces and four wings. Their legs were straight; their feet were like those of a calf and gleamed like burnished bronze. Under their wings on their four sides were they had the hands of a man. All four of them had faces and wings, and their wings touched one another. Each one went straight ahead; they did not turn as they moved.

Their faces looked like this: Each of the four had the face of a man, and on the right side each had the face of a lion, and on the left the face of an ox; each also had the face of an eagle. Such were their faces. Their wings were spread out upward; each had two wings, one touching the wing of another creature on either side, and two wings covering its body. Each one went straight ahead. Wherever the spirit would go, they would go, without turning as they went. The appearance of the living creatures was like burning coals of fire or like torches. Fire moved back and forth among the creatures; it was bright, and lightening flashed on it. The creatures sped back and forth like flashes of lightening.

As I looked at the living creatures, I saw a wheel on the ground beside each creature with its four faces. This was the appearance and structure of the wheels: They sparkled like chrysolite, and all four looked alike. Each appeared to be made like a wheel intersecting a wheel. As they moved, they would go in any one of the four directions the creatures faced; the wheels did not turn about as the creatures went. Their rims were high and awesome, and all four rims were full of eyes all around.

When the living creatures moved, the wheels beside them moved; and when the living creatures rose from the ground, the wheels also rose. Wherever the spirit would go, they would go, and the wheels would rise along with them, because the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheel. When the creatures moved, they also moved; when the creatures stood still, they also stood still; and when the creatures rose from the ground, the wheels rose along with them, because the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels.

Spread out above the heads of the living creatures was what looked like an expanse, sparking like ice and awesome. Under the expanse their wings were stretched out one towards the other, and each had two wings covering its body. When the creatures moved, I heard the sound of their wings, like the roar of rushing waters, like the voice of the Almighty, like the tumult of an army. When they stood still, they lowered their wings.

Then there came a voice from above the expanse over their heads as they stood with lowered wings. Above the expanse over their heads was what looked like a throne of sapphire, and high above on the throne was a figure like that of a man. I saw that from what appeared to be his waist up he looked like glowing metal, as if full of fire, and that from there down he looked like fire; and brilliant light surrounded him. Like the appearance of a rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the radiance around him.

This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. When I saw it, I fell face down, and I heard the voice of one speaking."

- - - - -

Ezekiel 1:5: “The center of the fire looked like glowing metal, and in the fire was what looked like four living creatures.”

. hNehl ed) tWmD ahye)rm hzw twYx (Br) tWmD HkwTmW

Creature = yx = Chay {khah'-ee}

Strong's Number: 02416; from 02421; TWOT: 644a

adj
1. living, alive
a. green (of vegetation)
b. flowing, fresh (of water)
c. lively, active (of man)
d. reviving (of the springtime) n m
2. relatives
3. life (abstract emphatic)
a. life
b. sustenance, maintenance n f
4. living thing, animal
a. animal
b. life
c. appetite
d. revival, renewal
5. community

Contextual usage:
Genesis 1:20: And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky."

Genesis 1:24: And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so.

Genesis 6:19: You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you.

Genesis 8:21: The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

- - - - -

Ezekiel 1:11: "Such were their faces. Their wings were spread out upward; each had two wings, one touching the wing of another creature on either side, and two wings covering its body."

twrbx eyT$ $y)l hl(mlm twdUrP (8803) ehyepnkw ehyenpW . hnhyetywG te) (8802) twSkm (8764) eyT$W $y)

Body = hywg = G@viyah = {ghev-ee-yaw'}

Strong's Number: 01472; Word Origin: 01465; TWOT: 326d; Noun Feminine

1) a body (of living creatures)
2) a corpse, carcass, dead body

According to Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, Tenth Edition:

"Body: (1): (a): the main part of a plant or animal body esp. as distinguished from limb or head: TRUNK . . . (2): (a): the organized physical substance of an animal or plant either living or dead . . . (3): (a): a mass of matter distinct from other masses (b): something that embodies or gives concrete reality to a thing; also: a sensible object in physical space . . ."

Scripture does not specify a spiritual body. If it was a spiritual body or some sort of spiritual body "essence," then scripture would have specified it.

Instead, body is used without altering specification, leaving the reader to the commonly used understanding of physical body.

- - - - -

Scripture makes another clear reference to unidentified living creatures in Heaven.

Revelation 4:6-9 says, "In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. The first living creature was like a lion, the second like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying:

'Holy, holy, holy
is the Lord God Almighty,
who was, and is, and is to come.'

Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the thrown, and worship him who lives for ever and ever."

These “creatures” seen in Heaven are not called angels. “Living creatures” means possessing blood by definition. They were flesh and blood.

Even scripture differentiates between these two groups.

Revelation 7:11: “All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures.”

- - - - -

Revelation 4:6: "In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back.”

Kai enwpion tou gronou wv galassa ualinh omoia krustallw| . Kai en mesw| tou gronou kai kuklw| tou gronou tessara zw|a gemonta ofqalmwn emprosqen kai opisqen;

Living Creature = zwÜøon = Zoon {dzo'-on}

Strong's Number: 2226; of a derivative of 2198; TDNT: 2:873,290; Noun Neuter

1. a living being
2. an animal, brute, beast

- - - - -

God had to do something with the perfect physical beings [“enemies” in Jeremiah 4:23] that rebelled against him and along with Lucifer. Certain “evil spirits,” or “demons,” roam around without any sort of physical body. These evil spirits, which are not called evil angels in scripture, are the disembodied spirits of the perfect physical beings that rebelled against God and were killed in his wrath.

In Mark 1:21-26, an evil spirit, or demon, tried to expose Jesus and who he really was before the proper time. The text says, "They went to Capernum, and when the Sabbath came, Jesus went into the synagogue and began to teach. The people were amazed at his teaching, because he taught them as one who had authority, not as the teachers of the law. Just then a man in their synagogue who was possessed by an evil spirit cried out, 'What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are--the Holy One of God!'

'Be quiet!' said Jesus sternly. 'Come out of him!' The evil spirit shook the man violently and come out of him with a shriek."

Mark 5:1-13 says, "They went across the lake to the region of the Gerasenes. When Jesus got out of the boat, a man with an evil spirit came from the tombs to meet him. This man lived in the tombs, and no one could bind him any more, not even with a chain. For he had often been chained hand and foot, but he tore the chains apart and broke the irons on his feet. No one was strong enough to subdue him. Night and day among the tombs and in the hills he would cry out and cut himself with stones.

When he saw Jesus from the distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him. He shouted at the top of his voice, 'What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? Swear to God that you won't torture me!' For Jesus was saying to him, 'Come out of this man, you evil spirit!'

Then Jesus asked him, 'What is your name?'

'My name is Legion,' he replied, 'for we are many.' And he begged Jesus again and again not to send them out of the area.

A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. The demons begged Jesus, 'Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them.' He gave them permission, and the evil spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned."

Thus ends the saga of Pre-Adamic creation and war.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

EZEKIEL ENDNOTE

Many question the context of Ezekiel 28:12-19 because in Ezekiel 28:13 it mentions Lucifer [Satan] being in the Garden of Eden after he was identified and described as being perfect and flawless, as in before his commission of sins and rebellion. Therefore, by that argument, Ezekiel 28:12-19 must refer to Lucifer’s fall as happening during or after the existence of the Garden of Eden.

However, this is a faulty assertion because:

1) Genesis 3 points out Satan’s [Lucifer’s] presence in the Garden of Eden in the capacity of a deceiver and enemy of God. This means Satan already rebelled against God and left his original place in Heaven.

2) This argument neglects the fact that Satan and his angels are cast down and hit the earth and God follows and directs his wrath to the Earth. Such events cannot go unnoticed, and nowhere during or after the existence of the Garden of Eden is either massively destructive event accounted for.

3) Ezekiel 28:18 mentions “sanctuaries” that Lucifer [Satan] had. He definitely could have had sanctuaries during the original creation, but there is no record or existence of any sanctuaries for Satan [fallen Lucifer] in this Adamic remake of the heavens and the earth. Further, if Satan [fallen Lucifer] is the enemy of God, clear and academic logic says that God would not give him any “sanctuaries.”

4) The Garden of Eden spoken of in Ezekiel 28:13 is the original Garden of Eden on the original earth.

- - - - -

REVELATION ENDNOTE

Many assert the war in Heaven in Revelation 12:7-9 is not a past event, but a future prophetic event. However, this creates the following problems:

1) Jude 1:6 and 2 Peter 2:4 state the past tense event of angels leaving heaven and being bound in chains in Hell.

Jude 1:6 states, "And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day."

In 2 Peter 2:4, the apostle Peter said, "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them into hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;"

If the angels that followed Lucifer [Satan] are already absent from Heaven and imprisoned in Hell, then Satan has no army to initiate another war in Heaven. The angels that fought against Lucifer and the angels that followed him made their free will choice to stay with and fight for God. Further, these past tense verses are self-evident that a rebellion has already taken place.

2) Genesis 3 and Ezekiel 28:12-19 point out Satan’s [Lucifer’s] presence in the Garden of Eden in the capacity of a deceiver and enemy of God. This means Satan already rebelled against God and left his original place in Heaven.

3) The content of Revelation 12:10-13 speaks of a future event independent from the past war in Heaven spoken of in Revelation 12:7-9.

Revelation 12:10-13
10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.
11 They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.
12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short."
13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.

In verse 10, Satan [Lucifer] is identified as accusing the brethren, a role fulfilled by an enemy of God. This would indicate Satan has already rebelled. Further, verse 11 specifies the “brothers” as the church by having “possessed” the “blood of the Lamb,” which is Christ’s blood.

The major key then lies in verse 13, where only the dragon [Satan] is identified as being hurled down by himself, with no accompanying angels with him.

Verse 10 is consistent with Zechariah 3:1-2, Job 1:7-12, and Job 2:1-6, where Satan, as an enemy of God, stood as an accuser before God in Heaven or on earth trying to convict and bring down anyone who follows God. And it is precisely this position [an accusing position in Heaven] that he is expelled from.

Further, note that in Revelation 12:9 Satan is referred to as the “ancient serpent,” whereas Satan is referred to as “the accuser” in Revelation 12:10. This is significant because “ancient” denotes an extremely old identity along with the reference “serpent,” which refers to Satan’s appearance in the Garden of Eden. However, the identity of “the accuser” refers to Satan’s appearances in Old Testament times [accusing Israel] and New Testament times [accusing the brethren in the church]. These roles directly refer to the time related identities of Satan [combined with the fact that Satan is cast down with angels in Revelation 12:9 verses Satan being cast down alone in Revelation 12:10].

- - - - -
- - - - -

Defensive Argumentation

Opponents say, “One of the popular devices for trying to accommodate the evolutionary ages of the geologists and astronomers in the creation record of the Bible has been the "gap theory"—also called the "ruin-and-reconstruction" theory . . . The gap theory was developed mainly for the purpose of accommodating the great ages demanded by evolutionary geologists.” [Quote from Dr. Morris, ICR]

This assertion is flawed because:
1) A perfect creation of God [Deuteronomy 32:4] is perfect as is. It does not require any form of evolution, for all God wanted to achieve was achieved in the one, definitive act of creation [Genesis 1:1]. Evolution “begs the question” of perfection and is a pointless gesture in light of perfection.
2) Pre-Adamic Creation is not defined by those who “believe” in it, but by the solid facts that support it. For instance, the person who first “came up” with Pre-Adamic Creation does not “own” the concept, for this person could have been mistaken in the concept’s composition, supporting “facts,” and application. Instead, the proper and factual version of Pre-Adamic Creation must be tested with debate, intellectually honest examination, and the facts.

Opponents say, “This awesome spectacle of destruction and death was not part of God's ‘very good’ creation. There was no death in the world until sin was in the world (Romans 5:12; I Corinthians 15:21; etc.). In fact, death itself is "the wages of sin" (Romans 6:23).” [Quote from Dr. Morris, ICR]

Genesis 1:31: “God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.”

Consider the following:
1) It says God “made,” not “created.” [SEE GENESIS 1:1 SECTION DEFINITIONS]
2) It says “good,” not perfect. Note the difference in terms. God’s original creation was perfect [Deuteronomy 32:4], but what God made during the six days was “very good” [Genesis 1:31].
3) God’s creation would have remained perfect (not simply “very good”) unless something happened. For instance, God would not have created darkness [1 John 1:5], but somehow it came into existence [Genesis 1:2].
4) In God’s original creation, Lucifer [Ezekiel 28:15-16] and the angels that followed him [Revelation 12:3-4] had brought sin down to the Pre-Adamic Earth [Ezekiel 28:17, Revelation 12:9]. However, during the six days of God’s “making” (reformatting) the heavens and the earth, God placed dominion of the Adamic earth under Adam’s possession. Sin didn’t enter the Adamic Creation until Adam ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil [Genesis 3:6-7].

Opponents say, “But if ‘death reigned’ not ‘from Adam to Moses,’ as the Bible says (Romans 5:14), but had already reigned for billions of years before Adam, then death is not the wages of sin but instead was part of God's creative purpose. How then could the death of Christ put away sin? The gap theory thus undermines the very gospel of our salvation, as well as the holy character of God.” [Quote from Dr. Morris, ICR]

This statement is flawed because:
1) The original perfect physical inhabitants of the earth were a company, not a race. Sin was not being reproduced as a state of being. Therefore, sin (rebelling against God) was purely determined by the individual’s freewill.
2) The original perfect physical inhabitants of the earth were perfect and in full control of their actions, so they were ineligible for and required no grace from God.

Opponents say, “The living creatures were defined as cherubim [Ezekiel 10:20] and Satan is an angel and cherub [Ezekiel 28:14], therefore the living creatures were angels, not Pre-Adamic beings.”

Not true. Consider the following:

Cherub = bwrk = K@ruwb {ker-oob'}

Strong's Number: 03742; of uncertain derivation; TWOT: 1036; Noun Masculine

1. cherub, cherubim (pl)
a. an angelic being
1. as guardians of Eden
2. as flanking God's throne
3. as an image form hovering over the Ark of the Covenant
4. as the chariot of Jehovah (fig.)

I find it odd that the word "cherub" [K@ruwb] [bwrk] has an "uncertain derivation," but yet it is defined as "an angelic being."

The definition of "cherub" had been commonly assumed to mean "a type of angelic being within a hierarchical order," but with no evidence other than conventional preconceptions.

To make matters worse, different people argue different word origins from different languages, thus making the "uncertain derivation" a ticket to legitimizing one's personal definition of "cherub."

Consider the facts in scripture:
1) "Cherub" [pl. "Cherubim"] is never defined as an order of angelic beings. Angels can be "cherubs" [Ezekiel 28:14], but "cherubs" are not scripturally restricted to being an inherent angelic role, as in a class/order of angelic beings.

2) "Cherubs" are always shown to be accomplishing roles of guardianship in the context of scripture.

[Excluded references to the Ark of the Covenant.]

Genesis 3:24: "After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life."

[Guarding the Garden of Eden.]

1 Samuel 4:4: "So the people sent men to Shiloh, and they brought back the Ark of the Covenant of the LORD Almighty, who is enthroned between the cherubim."

[Guarding God's thrown.]

1 Chronicles 13:6: "David and all the Israelites with him went to Baalah of Judah (Kiriath Jearim) to bring up from there the ark of God the LORD, who is enthroned between the cherubim--the ark that is called by the Name."

[Guarding God's thrown.]

Psalm 18:10: "He mounted the cherubim and flew; he soared on the wings of the wind."

[Escorting God as he moved.]

Psalm 99:1: "The LORD reigns, let the nations tremble; he sits enthroned between the cherubim, let the earth shake."

[Guarding God's thrown.]

Isaiah 37:16: "O LORD Almighty, God of Israel, enthroned between the cherubim, you alone are God over all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth."

[Guarding God's thrown.]

Ezekiel 9:3: "Now the glory of the God of Israel went up from above the cherubim, where it had been, and moved to the threshold of the temple."

[Guarding God and the temple.]

Ezekiel 10:1: "I looked, and I saw the likeness of a throne of sapphire above the expanse that was over the heads of the cherubim."

[Guarding God's thrown.]

Ezekiel 10:4: "Then the glory of the LORD rose from above the cherubim and moved to the threshold of the temple. The cloud filled the temple, and the court was full of the radiance of the glory of the LORD."

[Guarding God and the temple.]

Ezekiel 28:14: "You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones."

[Guarding God's thrown.]

Ezekiel 28:16: "Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones."

[Guardian of God's thrown.]

Context is clearly and plainly providing a uniform definition/understanding of "cherub" as a guardian.

[CoreIssue]

I got a request for a more simple overview of the subject. I will give it a shot.

1. God created the angels and Heaven, his dwelling place.
2. I believe, from other verses, he also created sanctuaries for the angels to have as their own. Those being other planets.
3. There were not stars or darkness. Darkness, not light, was created.
4. He created the earth next. Job tells us the angels watched him create it and were in awe of it. Therefore it was beautiful and different from the rest of what he created.
5. He created a company, not race, of beings, not humans, on the earth. They were the physical counterpart to the angels, who are purely spirits.
6. Satan was the covering angel of the throne of God. The most beautiful and powerful created. He was not content to be at the Throne in the exalted position, he came to want the throne.
7. He persuaded 1/3 of the angles and some portion of the Pre-Adamic Company, on the earth, to rebell and try to seize control of Creation.
8. There was a war in Heaven. It ripped apart the planets, as asteroids, meteors, nebula and other things demonstrate.
9. God won the war. Satan and the 1/3 were cast down to the earth. This shattered the earth. Christ says in Matthew he saw Satan fall like a lightening bolt. Thus all the angels hit hard.
10. The earth's crust was shattered, releasing all the water below, flooding the earth and rendering the earth chaotic, unshaped and desolate, as seen in Genesis 1:2. What awed the angels in Job was not complete chaos.
11. God created darkness and wrapped the 'war zone' in it. Which was the earth and the First and Second Heavens.
12. The the 6 Days began in Genesis 1:3.
13. God did not call the earth perfect, but good. He did not, in the Hebrew, create, but formed what was there.
14. There was one land mass, which God divided, after Babel, at the time of Peleg. Hence the continents of today.
15. When this earth is destroyed, after the Short Time of Satan, after the MK, God will create a New Earth. Not fix this one, but a complete new one.
16. That earth will be returned to the condition of the earth as originally created in Genesis 1:1, as in no ocean, watered from below and so on.
17. The Heavens will be created new as well. Again, no stars or sun, no darkness or such.

What originally was will be again. Again all will be perfect, and this time for eternity.

The 4 Living Creatures, who are the first circle around the Throne, are flesh and blood, not spirits and not angels.

They are not glorified beings, as glorified beings have no blood. As Christ has not blood (he shed it) and we will be like him.

Every being around the Throne represents a group. The Arch Angels the angels. The 24 Elders OT Israel. The Bride the Church.

So who does the 4 Living represent? The Pre-Adamics.

Hope that helps.

[kay-gee]

Not gonna touch that one with a ten foot pole!.........all the best..........

[CTZonEdit]

Because you dont understand it or because you dont agree with it?

[kay-gee]

Too deep......all the best

[kay-gee]

Judging by what I read there is this: Perhaps we are living in the new earth now. Perhaps the thousand years you always talk about from Rev 20, is the period of time before the forbidden fruit was eaten, and Satan was unchained to go forth and deceive the nations. So it could be that John was shown a capsulization of past rather than future events. Of course, I am just wondering. Don't come down on me as a heretic just yet. But that would certainly make more sense to me.......all the best............

[CoreIssue]

Judging by what I read there is this: Perhaps we are living in the new earth now. Perhaps the thousand years you always talk about from Rev 20, is the period of time before the forbidden fruit was eaten, and Satan was unchained to go forth and deceive the nations. So it could be that John was shown a capsulization of past rather than future events. Of course, I am just wondering. Don't come down on me as a heretic just yet. But that would certainly make more sense to me.......all the best............
Yea, push the Amillennialism.

Forget Christ will be here literally, all the issues of the Trib that come first, and so on.

Especially forget John said it was future, not past, or in action present to his time.

[CTZonEdit]

And this is what is so "dangerous" about these difficult biblical topics. It's more than opening the book and looking at the words.

Reading requires comprehension. Meditation and thought. Study. God even stated so.

Both Revelation and the creation account require some level of literary comprehension. You need to be able to read at at least an 8th grade level in order to understand whats going on. The KJV requires a 12th grade level.

excerpt from The Federalist 22 by Alexander Hamilton

The organization of Congress is itself utterly improper for the exercise of those powers which are necessary to be deposited in the Union. A single assembly may be a proper receptacle of those slender, or rather fettered, authorities, which have been heretofore delegated to the federal head; but it would be inconsistent with all the principles of good government, to entrust it with those additional powers which, even the moderate and more rational adversaries of the proposed Constitution admit, ought to reside in the United States. If that plan should not be adopted, and if the necessity of the Union should be able to withstand the ambitious aims of those men who may indulge magnificent schemes of personal aggrandizement from its dissolution, the probability would be, that we should run into the project of conferring supplementary powers upon Congress, as they are now constituted; and either the machine, from the intrinsic feebleness of its structure, will moulder into pieces, in spite of our ill-judged efforts to prop it; or, by successive augmentations of its force an energy, as necessity might prompt, we shall finally accumulate, in a single body, all the most important prerogatives of sovereignty, and thus entail upon our posterity one of the most execrable forms of government that human infatuation ever contrived.
(12th Grade Level; 2 errors permitted)

Every Man the Architect of His Own Fortune
by MacDiarmid

Nothing is more common in the world, than for people to flatter their self-esteem, and to excuse their indolence, by referring the prosperity of others to the caprice or partiality of fortune. Yet few, who have examined the matter with attention, have failed to discover, that success is as generally a consequence of industry and good conduct, as disappointment is the consequence of indolence and indecision.
Happiness, as Pope remarks, is truly "our being's end and aim;" and almost every man desires wealth, as a means of happiness. Thus, in wishing, mankind are nearly alike; but it is chiefly the striking incongruity that exists betwixt their actions and thoughts that checker society, that produces those endless varieties of character and situation which prevail in human life.
(8th Grade Level; 2 errors permitted)

Too many people do not know how to read properly in order to discern what God has written. Now I'm not making fun or knocking anyone's reading skills. I am just stating that it takes more than a quick glance or proofread to get it.

Knowledge doesnt just fall into your head by the Holy Spirit. It's acquired thru study and discernment using the tools God gave us (language, writing, reading, grammar) properly.

Many believe they are doing right when in fact they are not properly employing the tools. Even Jesus read and studied a great deal as a youth. It didnt just fall from above like a beam of Holy light.

[kay-gee]

I guess the truths of Gods word shall forever elude me then, because of my reading and comprehension skills...pity!..I've always wanted to know God!..........all the best....

[CoreIssue]

I guess the truths of Gods word shall forever elude me then, because of my reading and comprehension skills...pity!..I've always wanted to know God!..........all the best....
There are tons of truth revealed in God's word.

But one has to grow and dig deeper into it.

Even God's love and mercy, that all 'get' initially, can be found to be more complex, deep and exciting if one studies and grows in understanding.

That is why it is a blessing to study Revelation.

I understand that puzzles many to hear or say, but it is true. Totally unexpected understandings and depths do come as one digs in... honestly.

Honestly is the key.

[kay-gee]

Yeah, revelations is a real blessing all right. Probably causes more dissentions and quarreling than any other book of the Bible. all the best....

[CoreIssue]

Yeah, revelations is a real blessing all right. Probably causes more dissentions and quarreling than any other book of the Bible. all the best....
Actually that is not true.

The nature of God, Christ and salvation beat it out by miles.

[kay-gee]

Really?.........all the best......

[CoreIssue]

Really?.........all the best......
Not a student of history either?

[kay-gee]

Have we ever argued one time about the nature of God?.........all the best........

[CoreIssue]

Have we ever argued one time about the nature of God?.........all the best........
Us? No.

But if you look through cult, self revelation and such threads you see many have.

As for Church history, that was the huge biggie at the beginning.

[kay-gee]

Wow, I thought the basics were pretty much written in stone!......all the best......

[CoreIssue]

Wow, I thought the basics were pretty much written in stone!......all the best......
No. They were not. They were debated when Christianity got into the Roman Empire.

How do you think we ended up with the RCC?

[kay-gee]

To their credit though, they kept some of the basic basics. For example I don't think an RC would say that God was not the eternal Creator or that Jesus is his son, who gave Himself as a ransom for the world, and that salvation is through Him. I part ways with them over the un-biblical liturgical stuff (infant baptism, deifying Mary, Clergy etc...)I still kind of consider them in the mainstream. I have more difficulty with the Jeho Wit's cause they've altered the very person of Christ. In the long run religion defies human rationality...all the best....

[CoreIssue]

To their credit though, they kept some of the basic basics. For example I don't think an RC would say that God was not the eternal Creator or that Jesus is his son, who gave Himself as a ransom for the world, and that salvation is through Him. I part ways with them over the un-biblical liturgical stuff (infant baptism, deifying Mary, Clergy etc...)I still kind of consider them in the mainstream. I have more difficulty with the Jeho Wit's cause they've altered the very person of Christ. In the long run religion defies human rationality...all the best....
RC also departs on teaching salvation by works, praying to Mary, Saints, making the Bible less than Tradition, Law and so on.

By definition, those who adhere strictly to the Roman teachings are not saved, because they do not seek God's salvation by grace through faith. They seek it by trying to earn it via their own actions.

[kay-gee]

But isn't believing faith?

[CoreIssue]

But isn't believing faith?
I really am not believing you don't see the problem here.

Satanists have faith, they believe, in Satan. Does that save them?

Satan believes in God. But he does not worship or have faith in him.

Cults, atheists and all believe in something. They have faith in something.

Believing and having faith isn't the point, here. It is WHAT one believes and faith in that is.

[kay-gee]

I didn't quite mean in that way. People can struggle their whole life with the faith vs. works issue, but still believe Jesus is the son of God and paid the price for our sins. There must be some allowance for people and the different ways that they think and act. The blatant teaching and practising of falsehood is something else altogether. all the best.....

[CoreIssue]

I didn't quite mean in that way. People can struggle their whole life with the faith vs. works issue, but still believe Jesus is the son of God and paid the price for our sins. There must be some allowance for people and the different ways that they think and act. The blatant teaching and practising of falsehood is something else altogether. all the best.....
There is no allowance in the Bible.

It says we must repent our sins by faith in grace. John also says we must believe Christ is God incarnate.

It says if one believes in works it is empty and nullifies grace.

Plain, simple and straight forward. You must put your faith in Christ, not is self, in any way. And repent.

[kay-gee]

Jude 22 says "have mercy on some who are doubting"................all the best.....

[CTZonEdit]

Catholics are not doubting in that sense. They are following another god.

Non acceptance or denial is the same as rejection to God.

[kay-gee]

What they call purgatory, you call MK, if I understand your position.......all the best......

[CoreIssue]

What they call purgatory, you call MK, if I understand your position.......all the best......
Want to try to explain that?

Pergatory is a place of punishment.

[kay-gee]

A waiting room of sorts! A place in between the physical and the eternal where people have a second chance to get it right. I wish to continue the thread that was ended by lighthouse, but re-name it MK questions, because I still have things to ask and I felt a little cut short. Thanks. All the best..........

[CTZonEdit]

Then you need to find a thread that goes over the MK and post there or create a new one.

The topic here is supposed to be the Pre-Adamic Creation.

[kay-gee]

Done......like dinner!.............all the best......

[CoreIssue]

A waiting room of sorts! A place in between the physical and the eternal where people have a second chance to get it right. I wish to continue the thread that was ended by lighthouse, but re-name it MK questions, because I still have things to ask and I felt a little cut short. Thanks. All the best..........
Good place to deal with it.

Pergatory is not a second chance place. It is a place for saints with some issues to get past to pay for them.

Totally not Biblical.

The MK bears no resemblance. Those there are NOT there for a second go round. They are in the first, one and only life span.

['67Scofield]

First I gotta say that I appreciate your effort and time CI.
I've gotten about 1/2 way thru this so far and agree.

Could you add more clarity to the following comment?
During the recreation of earth, the angels that followed Lucifer were bound by chains and placed in a dark place when God recreated the earth beginning in Genesis 1:3.

Jude 1:6 states, "And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day."

kjv uses "estate" 4 positions of authority
and "habitation" 4 home
I always have considered these angels as the ones that left their spiritual habitation
for the physical realm. The ones in Genesis 6:2 who took wives from the daughters
of men.
The fallen angels who didn't do this, along with Satan, still influence our world today and are not chained in darkness.

[CoreIssue]

First I gotta say that I appreciate your effort and time CI.
I've gotten about 1/2 way thru this so far and agree.

Could you add more clarity to the following comment?
During the recreation of earth, the angels that followed Lucifer were bound by chains and placed in a dark place when God recreated the earth beginning in Genesis 1:3.

Jude 1:6 states, "And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day."

kjv uses "estate" 4 positions of authority
and "habitation" 4 home
I always have considered these angels as the ones that left their spiritual habitation
for the physical realm. The ones in Genesis 6:2 who took wives from the daughters
of men.
The fallen angels who didn't do this, along with Satan, still influence our world today and are not chained in darkness.
Well, the KJV made a lot of transation errors, to be honest. And it is old English, so some meanings of some words have changed drastically over time.
As with estate. In old English at estate represented a place of position.
Strong's Number: 746 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/browse.cgi?number=746&version=kjv) Original WordWord Originajrchvfrom (756 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=756&version=kjv))Transliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=746&version=kjv#Legend) EntryArche1:479,81Phonetic SpellingParts of Speechar-khay' http://bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=0746g) Noun Feminine Definition
beginning, origin
the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
the extremity of a thing
of the corners of a sail
the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
of angels and demons
And a place of habitation is ones home or place of residence.


The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon Strong's Number: 3613 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/browse.cgi?number=3613&version=kjv) Original WordWord Originoijkhthvrionfrom a presumed derivative of (3611 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3611&version=kjv)) (equivalent to (3612 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3612&version=kjv)))Transliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3613&version=kjv#Legend) EntryOiketerion5:155,674Phonetic SpellingParts of Speechoy-kay-tay'-ree-on http://bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=3613g) Noun Neuter Definition
a dwelling place, habitation
of the body as a dwelling place for the spirit King James Word Usage - Total: 2house 1, habitation 1

['67Scofield]

First I gotta say that I appreciate your effort and time CI.
I've gotten about 1/2 way thru this so far and agree.

Could you add more clarity to the following comment?
During the recreation of earth, the angels that followed Lucifer were bound by chains and placed in a dark place when God recreated the earth beginning in Genesis 1:3.

Jude 1:6 states, "And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day."

kjv uses "estate" 4 positions of authority
and "habitation" 4 home
I always have considered these angels as the ones that left their spiritual habitation
for the physical realm. The ones in Genesis 6:2 who took wives from the daughters
of men.
The fallen angels who didn't do this, along with Satan, still influence our world today and are not chained in darkness.
Well, the KJV made a lot of transation errors, to be honest. And it is old English, so some meanings of some words have changed drastically over time.
As with estate. In old English at estate represented a place of position.
Strong's Number: 746 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/browse.cgi?number=746&version=kjv)Original WordWord Originajrchvfrom (756 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=756&version=kjv))Transliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=746&version=kjv#Legend) EntryArche1:479,81Phonetic SpellingParts of Speechar-khay' http://bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=0746g) Noun Feminine Definition

beginning, origin
the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
the extremity of a thing
of the corners of a sail
the first place, principality, rule, magistracy

of angels and demons

And a place of habitation is ones home or place of residence.


The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon Strong's Number: 3613 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/browse.cgi?number=3613&version=kjv)Original WordWord Originoijkhthvrionfrom a presumed derivative of (3611 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3611&version=kjv)) (equivalent to (3612 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3612&version=kjv)))Transliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3613&version=kjv#Legend) EntryOiketerion5:155,674Phonetic SpellingParts of Speechoy-kay-tay'-ree-on http://bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=3613g) Noun Neuter Definition

a dwelling place, habitation
of the body as a dwelling place for the spirit
King James Word Usage - Total: 2house 1, habitation 1

I know what habitation and estate mean. :)
During the recreation of earth, the angels that followed Lucifer were bound by chains and placed in a dark place when God recreated the earth beginning in Genesis 1:3.
I disagree with this.

I always have considered these angels as the ones that left their spiritual habitation
for the physical realm. The ones in Genesis 6:2 who took wives from the daughters
of men.
The fallen angels who didn't do this, along with Satan, still influence our world today and are not chained in darkness.
The ones placed in chains are still in chains till Judgement Day. The ones who didn't leave their spiritual habitation are still doing their dirty work. The angels that followed Satan didn't "leave" heaven. They were thrown out. Some of them said, "I'm going to 'leave' my spiritual body and have some fun in a physical body." These are the ones God placed in chains.

[CoreIssue]

I know what habitation and estate mean. :)
OK.

During the recreation of earth, the angels that followed Lucifer were bound by chains and placed in a dark place when God recreated the earth beginning in Genesis 1:3.
I disagree with this.

Why? Satan had already fallen before Adam was created.

I always have considered these angels as the ones that left their spiritual habitation
for the physical realm. The ones in Genesis 6:2 who took wives from the daughters
of men.
The fallen angels who didn't do this, along with Satan, still influence our world today and are not chained in darkness.

Nope. Angels are not male and are incapable of reproduction.

Nephalim means giant humans, nothing more. Goliath was a Nephalim, from a race of Nephalim, as stated in the Bible.

The Bible says all the angels who rebelled were overcome and cast down, not just some.

Christ says he saw Satan fall.

Revelation shows a historical war where Satan led the angels in rebellion, not a future one. It says 1/3 were swept from Heaven. Not some of the 1/3 with others left behind.
The ones placed in chains are still in chains till Judgement Day. The ones who didn't leave their spiritual habitation are still doing their dirty work.
They left their places of authority and rebelled. None were left behind. Zero justification for this in the Bible.

Demons are not fallen angels.

To demonstrate my point, the Living Creatures are defined as flesh and blood. So what are they and where do they come from?

They are not angels. That is bad theology that is based on pure assumption, not the Biblical Hebrew or Greek.

No angel has flesh or blood.

['67Scofield]

Demons are not fallen angels.
ah, I think we're getting somewhere.
I would love to hear u elaborate on this. For this is contrary to popular belief, but as we certainly know, the majority is not always right. Enlighten me.
You think Satan has been bound since his fall? In Job, God asks him "where have u been?" And he basically says, "anywhere I please on the earth."
Job 1:7, Job 2:2
And he was standing outside the gates of heaven saying it.

No angel has flesh or blood.
but they can transform into a creature of light(mass and energy - physical) 2Cor. 11:14
What grabbed Lot and pulled him in the door at Sodom? Gen 19:10
btw, you're a good study partner.;)

[CoreIssue]

[quote]Demons are not fallen angels.
ah, I think we're getting somewhere.
I would love to hear u elaborate on this. For this is contrary to popular belief, but as we certainly know, the majority is not always right. Enlighten me.

There is material on the subject in the links of the first post of the thread.
You think Satan has been bound since his fall?
No. He has worked on the earth and before the Throne as the Accuser. But he has no Heavenly position anymore.

In Job, God asks him "where have u been?" And he basically says, "anywhere I please on the earth."
Job 1:7, Job 2:2
And he was standing outside the gates of heaven saying it.

Where he was is a debated issue. But around he has been.

No angel has flesh or blood.
but they can transform into a creature of light(mass and energy - physical) 2Cor. 11:14

That is not physical. Appearance of, yes, but not physical. And sure not capable of producing sperm, which is life.
What grabbed Lot and pulled him in the door at Sodom? Gen 19:10
btw, you're a good study partner.;)
Thanks. Energy most assuredly can have an impact with physical results. Electricity and magnetics, in example.

Remember, angels are not bound by the Laws of physics.

[Jessie]

in reading on the first page it mentioned psalms 18 where god mounted and flew.

interesting thing to bring out!

['67Scofield]

God had to do something with the perfect physical beings [“enemies” in Jeremiah 4:23] that rebelled against him and along with Lucifer. Certain “evil spirits,” or “demons,” roam around without any sort of physical body. These evil spirits, which are not called evil angels in scripture, are the disembodied spirits of the perfect physical beings that rebelled against God and were killed in his wrath.
I've considered this before and it does make sense.
Is there a thread that explores how these spirits are able to influence our minds and thus our actions. Also many times these spirits are closely linked to physical infirmities. Any thoughts?

And once more... you say the all the angels who followed Satan were thrown into hell but Satan himself was not?:scratch:

enjoying this thread:nod:

[CoreIssue]

God had to do something with the perfect physical beings [“enemies” in Jeremiah 4:23] that rebelled against him and along with Lucifer. Certain “evil spirits,” or “demons,” roam around without any sort of physical body. These evil spirits, which are not called evil angels in scripture, are the disembodied spirits of the perfect physical beings that rebelled against God and were killed in his wrath.
I've considered this before and it does make sense.
Is there a thread that explores how these spirits are able to influence our minds and thus our actions.
No. But think about it.

Our bodies are influenced by our spirits. It is where 'we' reside.

Demons are disembodied spirits who, when they had bodies, influenced their bodies, so the have the 'equipment,' so to speak, to influence flesh.

Angels never had physical bodies. They are complete as spirits.
Also many times these spirits are closely linked to physical infirmities. Any thoughts?
Well, we know our thoughts and action influence our health, so why wouldn't their influences as well?
And once more... you say the all the angels who followed Satan were thrown into hell but Satan himself was not?:scratch:
God's providence.

Notice that Satan is always classed separately from all others, before and after the Fall.

So he chose to postpone his imprisonment his.

As with the OT saints. They didn't have the blood yet, but God postponed them going to Hell until Christ could pay the price for them while those who were saints went right in.

enjoying this thread:nod:
:tiphat:

[pilgrim]

When I first heard this theory taught. It was brought out that if evil spirits are not fallen angels, but spirits that once had a fleshly body. Then that may be why they so easily possess physical beings today. Also, the bible does not record to my knowledge any instance of an angel possessing a human body in the sense that we attribute demons to do.

[CoreIssue]

When I first heard this theory taught. It was brought out that if evil spirits are not fallen angels, but spirits that once had a fleshly body. Then that may be why they so easily possess physical being today. Also, the bible does not record to my knowledge any instance of an angel possessing a human body in the sense that we attribute demons to do.
Yes on all counts.

[Occupy]

Be encouraged to test and prove all things and hold fast to that which is right and good.

There is a teaching that has been going around that opposes sound doctrine and the cross of Jesus Christ, misrepresenting Gods all-powerful nature. [In paragraph 4 we will start dealing with specifics.] I want to encourage you to develop sound doctrine, fall in love with Jesus, be a saint who prays, seek the heart of God, and be established in the Word. The warning here is simple; “Embracing and promoting error is a sin against the Lord and those whom you share with.” The dangers here are simple; “Being deceived in one area opens up being deceived in others, and to cause “little ones” to stumble is a grievous mistake worthy of God’s correction.”

What the Spirit of Truth brings forth will always glorify God and exalt Jesus, and bring the believer to the cross and the resurrection. Teachings that don’t do that aren’t from the Holy Spirit. True doctrine is by the Spirit of truth and sets people free. Bad doctrine or false teaching may make sense but ends in bondage and deception.

John the Apostle brought forth some very clear teaching in 1John 4:1-6, which shows how to test and prove, regarding the spirit of error and antichrist. It has wide application and clearly shows one how to recognize the spirit of anti-christ. John, through the Spirit of God tells us “that every spirit that does not confess that Jesus came in the flesh is a spirit of antichrist. “ It is pretty clear, but I want to develop the intent here so it will help the reader to discern and “test and prove” properly. Though it does and can happen … it isn’t often that people go around having conversations with spirits and asking them the question: “Hey; evil spirit, by the way … do you confess that Jesus Christ came in the flesh?” However one can discern the doctrines brought forth from evil spirits by what they profess and confess in essentially the same manner. If a teaching or doctrine has, at its root, a defying of Jesus’ work on the cross for redemption … likely it is antichrist. Do you see it? It doesn’t glorify God almighty and affirm that Jesus work was a complete work of redemption. Now these antichrist doctrines can be a bit tricky and subtle to deceive the most well meaning and devout Christian.

I believe the very elect will not embrace such teachings, but be forewarned here of the dangers and subtlety. You know that Jesus was the Lamb of God who was crucified from the foundations of the world … right? [Rev 13:8] What if a spirit made the case that another civilization existed before mankind? Was the work of the cross of Jesus applicable to that civilization? Remember that the work of the cross was established “before” the foundations of the world; so anything thereafter must come into the plan of the work of the cross; right? If a doctrine says no … then it doesn’t confess that Jesus came in the flesh to deal with sin on the cross from the foundation forward and therefore for that civilization … right? Do you see it? The doctrine itself would declare that God almighty failed and that the cross did not apply. Yup … it is antichrist.

Thus far we have used scripture from the last book of the Bible to refute this fabricated doctrine regarding the first book of the Bible; however you may not know this but the pre-Adamic civilization “false doctrine” is not based on what is in the Bible, but what is “not” in the Bible. The doctrine is also called the Gap theory and finds its roots in between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. Those of you who adhere to sound doctrine will see the problem here as it interferes with the continuity of “first mention.” Right doctrine is established as true and consistent from where it is “first mentioned” and developed from that beginning forward.

The basic idea behind Gap theory teaching is that there was a pre-Adamic civilization governed by Satan that was destroyed by a flood making the formerly perfectly created earth void and without form. There are extensive efforts to use other scripture, reasoning and science to create validity for this purported gap between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. Since this false doctrine hinges on “what is not in the Holy Bible” in between these two statements and as we have shown does not recognize the complete work of the cross from the foundation of the world, it doesn’t require a great deal of biblical proof or discernment to unravel and expose it. However since it is crafty and subtle and uses supportive scriptures to make its case, we will clear up three more errors associated with it, several paragraphs below.

But first; knowing that Satan is a liar from the beginning and only comes to rob, kill and destroy and that he desires to dethrone God Almighty and be enthroned himself, let’s look at some conclusions that evidence the fruit that this doctrine subtly infers.

This false teaching would infer that:
God almighty is not omnipotent, and all knowing, hence can be caught off-guard or make mistakes.
Satan was powerful enough to enthrone himself in a prior civilization and win against God almighty.
Satan has Creator type power and can foil Gods plans, so God had to do creation again. Yeah, I know, ludicrous. Plus it is really stupid logic. Just because it says in Genesis 1:2 that the earth was “void and without form” doesn’t prove that any destructive event happened between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 at all … no more than saying the moon is “a dusty rock in space” would prove that a thriving civilization was destroyed on it. Yeah, I know, ludicrous.


Scripture Section:



[U]Used to support the “gap theory:” Jer 4:23-26; I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void;
And the heavens, they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and indeed they trembled, And all the hills moved back and forth. I beheld, and indeed there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled. I beheld, and indeed the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were broken down At the presence of the LORD ,By His fierce anger. NKJV
Corrects the error: Jer 4:23-26 (This is actually a prophecy by a prophet about the city Karmel and not a pre-existent civilization.) I beheld the earth and Lo! A void! Then the heaven; and its lights were gone. I beheld the mountains, and they were trembling; and all the hills were in perturbation. I looked; and Lo! There was not a man; and all the birds or the air were flown. I beheld; and Lo! Karmel was a desert; and all the cities were burned with fire. At the presence of the Lord, and because of his fierce anger, they are utterly destroyed


Used to elevate Satans might: Isa 14:12 How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!

Corrects the error: Isa 14:12 (Notice Lucifer was only the herald of the morning star [which is Jesus], and not the son of the morning): 12. How is Lucifer fallen from heaven! He who was harbinger (herald) of the morning--- -he who sent messages to all the nations, is trampled down into the earth.



Used to support a “pre-Noah” world destruction by flood: 2 Peter 3:4-7. "5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. NKJV
Corrects the error:This is also used as a basis for false doctrine, it has been twisted to mean something other than the flood of Noah, but we must remember the earth was different before the flood of Noah, and when it talks about the heavens of old, and the world that then existed, it is no doubt referring to the old pre Noah heavens, and civilization.

Remember to prove all things and hold fast to what is true. Learn to take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ. Avoid winds of doctrines or doctrines of demons and don’t be found amongst those who will not endure sound doctrine.

[Jessie]

When I first heard this theory taught. It was brought out that if evil spirits are not fallen angels, but spirits that once had a fleshly body. Then that may be why they so easily possess physical being today. Also, the bible does not record to my knowledge any instance of an angel possessing a human body in the sense that we attribute demons to do.
Yes on all counts.

humm so if I'm understanding right, these evil spirits that possess people
once where flesh themselves in some sense?

[CoreIssue]

Try reading the materials so you do not make yourself look foolish refuting what was not said.

Never said there was a race upon the earth, but a company. Never said Satan ruled the earth. Never said destroyed in a flood, it was much worse.

The Jeremiah 4 passage does not contain the name Karmel and it is PAST tense, so it is not a prophecy at all.

The linquistics of Genesis 1 is laid out in the thread. Try reading it.

Now, try getting the words in Isaiah 14:12 correct. It state he IS the star of the morning and son of the dawn and that he has fallen, past tense. Don't add words and change the grammar.

As for 2 Peter, we have NEVER claimed it as a Pre-Adamic proof.

I suggest you follow your own admonition and prove all things first. That begins with reading what you are refuting, first, and then answer the given proofs instead of making false claims as to what is believed and why. Especially do not try to refute but adding to the Bible words never said.

I really get annoyed with people who do what you have tried here. Debate and discuss, do not falsely accuse.

[CoreIssue]

When I first heard this theory taught. It was brought out that if evil spirits are not fallen angels, but spirits that once had a fleshly body. Then that may be why they so easily possess physical being today. Also, the bible does not record to my knowledge any instance of an angel possessing a human body in the sense that we attribute demons to do.
Yes on all counts.

humm so if I'm understanding right, these evil spirits that possess people
once where flesh themselves in some sense?
Yes.

Which makes sense, a spirit possessing flesh who is a complete being on its own or one that use to have flesh and lost it?

Do we not the dead regain their flesh in eternity, some for glorfication and some for condemnation?

Further, Jude says the fallen angels are chained in the Pit. So who are demons then?

And what are the 4 Living Creatures since their names in both the Hebrew and Greek means possessing flesh and blood.

[CTZonEdit]

I agree with Core.

Time and time again have seen people not read the material close enough and resort to the standard gap theory refutations.

Pre-Adamic is not Gap Theory.

[Occupy]

Actually I just posted an encouraging article not really based upon what was earlier presented.

However you can accuse me falsely of that if you wish. It just isn't the case. Self preservation will lead to self justification and accusation in the natural course of iniquity and carnality.

I simply passed on an article in its toto form.

The Text quoted is from the Septuagint ... which is an authoritative version that actually predates the texus receptus and is the version quoted by new testament people such as Peter and Paul and Jesus [This is simply a fact] ... versus the much older Masoretic text ... refered to as the texus receuptus.

THIS IS AN EDIT:
I also must apologize ... as I had not read the lead article and did not understand that it was expected to reference on it, or towards it, or regarding it ... I hadn't seen any real format to the case and assumed it was ok to simply toss in something. Likely I broke a rule and caused offense then. So no hijack intended ... just though a little clarity of this article would bless someone.

Sorry.

[CoreIssue]

OK. Understood.

But this thread has an extensive presentation on what, why and how. It was anything but all encompassing of every thought out there.

So, your post is going to be taken as addressing what was presented.

Read the links in the first post here (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=10314&postcount=1).

Then feel free to respond and we can discuss it if you wish.

[Occupy]

... do not make yourself look foolish ... try getting the words in Isaiah 14:12 correct. ... I suggest you follow your own admonition and prove all things first. ... making false claims ... I really get annoyed ... what you have tried here. ... do not falsely accuse.

Ok Understood. I apologized.

It seems you have misunderstood and then falsely accused me ... I can see why and hence my apology ... but shouldn't you apologize for the same reasons ... except in your case you actually did falsely accuse me of falsely accusing.

Just curious what kind of christian site this is and the level of real accountability for words there is.

Not trying to be a pain ... but looking for fruit. Fair enough? :tiphat:


Just remember that self preservation leads to self justification and then accusation.

Side note regarding the true fast: Isa 58:9 Then you shall call, and the LORD will answer; you shall cry, and He will say, 'Here I am.'
"If you take away the yoke from your midst, The pointing of the finger, and speaking wickedness, NKJV

[CoreIssue]

OK. Read the post above yours. :tiphat:

[Occupy]

:scratch: Ok ... so that it the way you apologize when you falsely accuse someone ... by not admitting fault?

Just being thorough in the fruit test.
:):

[CoreIssue]

:scratch: Ok ... so that it the way you apologize when you falsely accuse someone ... by not admitting fault?

Just being thorough in the fruit test.
:):
Excuse me? Exactly what did I falsely accuse of doing?

YOU came on a thread presenting a belief with PAGES of Biblical proofs include. YOU said:
There is a teaching that has been going around that opposes sound doctrine and the cross of Jesus Christ, misrepresenting Gods all-powerful nature.
Thus far we have used scripture from the last book of the Bible to refute this fabricated doctrine regarding the first book of the Bible; however you may not know this but the pre-Adamic civilization “false doctrine” is not based on what is in the Bible, but what is “not” in the Bible.
Since this false doctrine hinges on “what is not in the Holy Bible” in between these two statements and as we have shown does not recognize the complete work of the cross from the foundation of the world, it doesn’t require a great deal of biblical proof or discernment to unravel and expose it. However since it is crafty and subtle and uses supportive scriptures to make its case, we will clear up three more errors associated with it, several paragraphs below.
This false teaching would infer that:

God almighty is not omnipotent, and all knowing, hence can be caught off-guard or make mistakes.
Satan was powerful enough to enthrone himself in a prior civilization and win against God almighty.
Satan has Creator type power and can foil Gods plans, so God had to do creation again.Yeah, I know, ludicrous. Plus it is really stupid logic. Just because it says in Genesis 1:2 that the earth was “void and without form” doesn’t prove that any destructive event happened between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 at all … no more than saying the moon is “a dusty rock in space” would prove that a thriving civilization was destroyed on it. Yeah, I know, ludicrous.

Where did I falsely accuse you of anything?

I refuted and disputed your statements with facts.

There is not ONE Pre-Adamic belief out there. There are many.

Did you even look at the opening post? Or did you just see Pre-Adamic, make a huge erroneous assumption and post?

Was I the only one who read it as an attack on the beliefs of some here concerning this issue? No.

I repeat, read the links in the first post and refute the linquistics and Biblical materials included. You are very welcome to do that and we can have a good conversation.

But don't spin verses about sound doctrine as condemning Pre-Adamic until you prove it is false doctrine.

And don't add words to verses to change their meanings.

Let us discuss it and see who presents the better case.

Do you notice no one condemned YOU for not accepting it as practicing false doctrine? Think about it.

We are here willing to discuss, debate and exchange facts and evidence. You came on swinging a sword.

Show me what I need to apologize for and I will when I see it. Otherwise read and reply to the proofs offered. May the true case win the other over. :tiphat:

[Occupy]

Sigh ... like I said ... I just posted and article I thought would edify ... made that clear.

Was falsely accused as I stated [E.G I was accused of falsely accusing which I did not] ... err that is a false accusation to say I was ... when I wasn't ... so ... ok ... you probably don't see it even though I posted what you wrote.

Oh well ... fruit test over.

[CoreIssue]

Sigh ... like I said ... I just posted and article I thought would edify ... made that clear.

Was falsely accused as I stated [E.G I was accused of falsely accusing which I did not] ... err that is a false accusation to say I was ... when I wasn't ... so ... ok ... you probably don't see it even though I posted what you wrote.

Oh well ... fruit test over.
:scratch: Let me see here. You made a post that was misleading in intent, I challenged, you admited you didn't read the thread subject and apologized, I accepted the apology and said we can take it from there and discuss, but somehow I did something wrong?

No, your error does not make my reaction wrong.

And my acceptance and saying let us move on is not sufficient? I am somehow responsible for your error? :scratch:

Nope, I don't get your point.

We can discuss my Pre-Adamic position versus your rejection if you wish, or not. Up to you.

But it does require you to read what was posted and not base your thinking on what I don't believe. And deal with my claims, not post warnings about false doctrine.

Really, I really am into Sound Doctrine. Just address my points and show me where they are wrong, because there is no negative proofs available in the Bible that says it is wrong, requiring to show my claims themselves are wrong.

Don't know what else to say. You are welcome to discuss. Your choice.

[Willy]

CoreIssue, Hi!!

Enjoyed the first part that you pasted, but when I click on part 2, I get a text format that includes the formating keys. Could you do me a favor and paste part 2 the same way you pasted part 1?

Thanks,

Willy :tiphat:

[CoreIssue]

CoreIssue, Hi!!

Enjoyed the first part that you pasted, but when I click on part 2, I get a text format that includes the formating keys. Could you do me a favor and paste part 2 the same way you pasted part 1?

Thanks,

Willy :tiphat:
I will repost it all in the following posts to keep it together and complete.

[CoreIssue]

Some seem to have browser issues reading the links. So here is the lead article copied and pasted here.

Origins and Pre-Adamic Creation

Supporting Argumentation

When people crack open the Bible, the most common assumption accepted by Christians is that all matter and energy came into existence with the six days in chapter one of Genesis, thus meaning the earth is merely thousands of years old.

The statement itself is flawed. The Bible does not state the Earth is thousands of years old. This statement comes from the assumption that the six days of creation begin at Genesis 1:1.

This is incorrect. They begin at Genesis 1:3.

Genesis 1:1 says, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

. ur)h te)w eymh te) eyhl) )rB ty$)erB

)rb = Bara' {baw-raw'}

Strong's Number: 01254; TWOT – 278; verb

1. to create, shape, form
a. (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)
1. of heaven and earth
2. of individual man
3. of new conditions and circumstances
4. of transformations
b. (Niphal) to be created
1. of heaven and earth
2. of birth
3. of something new
4. of miracles
c. (Piel)
1. to cut down
2. to cut out
2. to be fat
a. (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat

The Hebrew word, bara, in Genesis 1:1, indicates that what was created was "ex-nihilo" - out of nothing. One should not confuse bara (“he created”) with its synonym `asah (“he made”). In the nothingness, there was only God.

For examples of “made,” consider Exodus 20:11 and Exodus 31:17.

Exodus 20:11: “For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day.”

Ur)h eymh hwhy h&( eymy yK aeK-1( y(ybh ewYB xnYw eB-r$)-1K-t)w eYh-t) . Whe$Dqyw tBh ewy-t) hwhy jreB

Made = h#( = `asah = {aw-saw'}

Strong's Number: 06213; TWOT: 1708,1709; verb

1. to do, fashion, accomplish, make
a. (Qal)
1. to do, work, make, produce 1a
b. to do 1a
c. to work 1a
d. to deal (with) 1a
e. to act, act with effect, effect
1. to make 1a
f. to make 1a
g. to produce 1a
h. to prepare 1a
i. to make (an offering) 1a
j. to attend to, put in order 1a
k. to observe, celebrate 1a
l. to acquire (property) 1a
m. to appoint, ordain, institute 1a
n. to bring about 1a
o. to use 1a
p. to spend, pass
q. (Niphal)
1. to be done
2. to be made
3. to be produced
4. to be offered
5. to be observed
6. to be used
r. (Pual) to be made
2. (Piel) to press, squeeze

Therefore, there is a fundamental difference between God creating, forming, and shaping the heavens and the earth [Bara' in Genesis 1:1] compared to God making, fashioning, and working the heavens and the earth [`asah in Exodus 20:11 and Exodus 31:17].

For the definition of these words “made” and “create,” I will turn to the Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, Tenth Edition.

"Made: (1): (a): FICTITIOUS, INVENTED (b): artificially produced (c): put together of various ingredients (2): assured of success"

"1Create: (1): to bring into existence <God created the heaven and the earth--Genesis 1:1 (AV)> (2): (a): to invest with a new form, office, or rank (b): to produce or bring about by a course of action or behavior (3): CAUSE, OCCATION (4): (a): to produce through imaginative skill (b): DESIGN ~ vi: to make or bring into existence something new"

Again, notice the key difference between (made) "put together of various ingredients" verses (create) "to bring into existence." The term "made" used in the context of "create" is inaccurate, by definition.

Genesis 1:1-2 says: " Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters."

(8764) ewht yenP (8804)-l( j$xw Whbw Wht htyh ur)hw . eyMh yenP tpxrm eyhl) xWrw

Was = hyh = Hayah {haw-yaw}

Strong's Number: 01961; TWOT 491; verb

to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out
1. (Qal)
a. to happen, fall out, occur, take place, come about, come to pass
b. to come about, come to pass
c. to come into being, become
d. to arise, appear, come
e. to become
f. to become
g. to become like
h. to be instituted, be established
i. to be
j. to exist, be in existence
k. to abide, remain, continue (with word of place or time)
l. to stand, lie, be in, be at, be situated (with word of locality)
m. to accompany, be with
2. (Niphal)
a. to occur, come to pass, be done, be brought about
b. to be done, be finished, be gone

Without form = wht = Tohuw {to'-hoo}

Strong's Number: 08414; TWOT: 2494a; Noun Masculine

1. formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness
a. formlessness (of primeval earth)
1. nothingness, empty space
b. that which is empty or unreal (of idols) (fig)
c. wasteland, wilderness (of solitary places)
d. place of chaos
e. vanity

Void = whb = Bohuw {bo'-hoo}

Strong's Number: 0922; TWOT: 205a; Noun Masculine

1. emptiness, void, waste

Deep = ewht = T@howm {teh-home'}

Strong's Number: 08415; from 01949; TWOT: 2495a; Noun

1. deep, depths, deep places, abyss, the deep, sea
a. deep (of subterranean waters)
b. deep, sea, abysses (of sea)
c. primeval ocean, deep
d. deep, depth (of river)
e. abyss, the grave

God created the earth to be inhabited.

In Isaiah 45:18, it says:

"For this is what the LORD says--
he who created the heavens,
he is God;
he who fashioned and made the earth,
he founded it;
he did not create it to be empty,
but formed it to be inhabited--"

But, in Genesis 1:2, the earth was empty. Further, an empty, chaotic [Tohuw] wasteland [Bohuw] in water [T@howm] is not conditions a human civilization can live in.

God’s works are perfect.

Consider Deuteronomy 32:4, where it says of God:

"He is the Rock, his works are perfect,
and all his ways are just."

Therefore, God would have created a perfect earth in Genesis 1:1.

But, in Genesis 1:2, the earth was an empty, chaotic [Tohuw] wasteland [Bohuw] in water [T@howm]. This is not perfection, but the opposite.

Further, God is omnipotent—meaning he can do exactly what he wants without limitation. Therefore, God does not need to create a formless and void earth and then mold it from there, which would imply God has limits and gets tired. Clear academic logic says he can create a perfect earth and perfect universe in one, definitive act.

In addition, Scripture shows that creation was one, definitive act:

Psalm 33
6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made,
their starry host by the breath of his mouth.
9 For he spoke, and it came to be;
he commanded, and it stood firm.

Also, God would have created any inhabitants [company, not race] perfect [perfect physical beings] as well.

God would have no reason to create darkness in his original creation, for there is no darkness in him.

In 1 John 1:5, John says, "This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all."

Further, God himself emits light. And since he would have no reason to create darkness in his original creation [1 John 1:5], he would have let it shine on his creation.

In Revelation 22:5, of the New Jerusalem it says, "There will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light."

Thus, God’s own light would have illuminated his creation.

Next, look at Job 38:6, where God asks Job about creation of earth to make a point:

"On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone--
while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?"

Clearly, this speaks of angels singing while the creation was completed.

When Lucifer ("light bringer") was created, he was the most powerful guardian cherub who guarded God's thrown. However, he became power hungry and wanted to rule heaven himself.

In Ezekiel 28:12-17, when God is giving prophesies against the King of Tyre, God uses Lucifer as an example, saying:

12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:

You were a model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace
from the mount of God,
And I expelled you, O guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.
17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor;” [SEE EZEKIEL ENDNOTE]

[Note: These verses are clearly not speaking of the king of Tyre because:

1) He was not perfect [verse 12], but only human.
2) He was not in the Garden of Eden [verse 13].
3) He is not a cherub [verse 14].
4) He did not walk the mount of God [verse 14].
5) He did not walk the mount of God, so he could not be driven from it [verse 16].]

- - - - -

Ezekiel 28:14:
“You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.”

Note: The term "fiery stones" most likely refers to the Seraphim [ref. "Seraph," meaning "to burn"] who guarded God's throne while Lucifer guarded God's throne as a powerful "capstone" of a protective formation, or "structure" [ref. Isaiah 6:1-8; Ezekiel 1:1-28]. Hence, the terminology of "walk[ing] among the fiery stones" means "walking among the Seraphim."

- - - - -

Lucifer wanted to be higher than God.

Examine Isaiah 14:12-15, where God related the king of Babylon to Lucifer and his fall while talking to Isaiah,

12 "How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!

13 You said in your heart,
'I will ascend into heaven;
I will raise my throne above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.'
15 But you are brought down to the grave,
to the depths of the pit."

[Note the significance of the "morning star(s)" is clearly that of angels created in the original creation, as referred to in Job 38:6.]
[Note 2: These verses cannot refer to the king of Babylon because the king did not ascend from the earth in order to be cast down [verse 12].]

- - - - -
Isaiah 14:12:

"How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!”

T(Dgn rx$ lelyeh eymm Tlpn jye) . eywG-l $elwx ur)1

Morning star = llyh = Heylel {hay-lale'}

Strong's Number: 01966; from 01984 (in the sense of brightness); TWOT: 499a; Noun Masculine

Lucifer = "light-bearer"
1. shining one, morning star, Lucifer
a. of the king of Babylon and Satan (fig.)
2. 'Helel' describing the king of Babylon

- - - - -

Then Lucifer led one third of the angels in Heaven in his rebellion.

Consider Revelation 12:3-4, where it says, "Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and seven horns and seven crowns on his heads. His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth." [SEE REVELATION ENDNOTE]

Given the verse of Job 38:6, with the "stars" singing together, and Satan as the "dragon," and the flinging of stars to the earth by the "dragon's tail" (Satan’s act), it is clear that a third of the angels followed Satan and where cast down with him.

Revelation 12:7 states, "And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.” [SEE REVELATION ENDNOTE]

Lucifer (Satan) was defeated and cast down.

Revelation 12:8-9 continues, “But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him." [SEE REVELATION ENDNOTE]

In Luke 10:18, Jesus, the Son of God himself said, "I saw Satan fall like lightening from heaven."

In Isaiah 14:12, God said:
"How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!

[Note the significance of the "morning star(s)" is clearly that of angels created in the original creation, as referred to in Job 38:6.]

[Note 2: A key observation in Isaiah 14:12 is that Lucifer "laid low" the nations. For the context and meaning of laid low, consider the following the following verses:

Isaiah 25:12, where Isaiah says:

“He will bring down your high fortified walls
and lay them low;
he will bring them down to the ground,
to the very dust.”

Job 14:10, where Job says:

“But man dies and is laid low;
he breathes his last and is no more.”

And Psalm119:25, where Daleth sings:

“I am laid low in the dust;
renew my life according to your word.”

Clearly, by these verses, the definition and context of laid low is usually destroying, defeating, putting down, etc. Thus, Lucifer, who once defeated, destroyed, put down, etc. nations was himself put down and humiliated before the nations and kings that knew who he was and what he did.]

In Ezekiel 28:17-19, God continues:
17 “So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.
18 By your many sins and
dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made fire come out of you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes
on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.
19 All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
You have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.” [SEE EZEKIEL ENDNOTE]

[Note: In conjunction with the content of Ezekiel 28:12-17 pointed out, these verses cannot refer to the king of Tyre because:

1) He never ascended from the earth, so he could not be thrown down [verse 17].
2) God never set the person of the king of Tyre on fire [past tense] [verse 18].]

Notice the reference to “nations” and “all who were watching.” This is a clear illusion to the perfect physical beings that inhabited the earth. Further, the fallen Lucifer was humiliated before them.

As Lucifer and his followers were cast down, God, out of great anger, followed them and directed great wrath towards them and the perfect beings on earth that rebelled as well.

Next, consider Psalm 18:7-15, where it says:

7 "The earth trembled and quaked,
and the foundations of the mountains shook;
they trembled because he was angry
8 Smoke rose from his nostrils;
consuming fire came from his mouth,
burning coals blazed out of it.
9 He parted the heavens and came down;
dark clouds were under his feet.
10 He mounted the cherubim and flew;
he soared on the wings of the wind.
11 He made darkness his covering, his canopy around him--
The dark rain clouds in the sky.
12 Out of the brightness of his presence clouds advanced,
with hailstones and bolts of lightening.
13 The LORD thundered from heaven;
the voice of the Most High resounded.
14 He shot his arrows and scattered the enemies,
great bolts of lightening and routed them.
15 The valleys of the sea were exposed
and the foundations of the earth laid bare
at your rebuke, O LORD,
at the blast of breath from your nostrils."

[Notes: Psalm Chapter 18 subject: David's persecution from Saul and others and the fact that God delivered him from the situation. The subject then is really God's judgment on the enemies which resulted in David's deliverance.

Verses 1-3 - His devotion and trust in the Lord
Verses 4-5 - David encounters a death crisis
Verse 6 - But he trusts in God for deliverance
Verses 16-19 - David records the Lord's deliverance from his enemies and from the death crisis.
But in verses 7-15 - we have a record of God's judgment in a different situation.

Here, the language changes totally. Here there is no mention of people. Here one must look beyond David's life to find the reference. Even if one were to symbolize the passage as a whole, it can find no correlation to David's deliverance.]

Notice God is attacking "enemies." If Lucifer and the angels that followed him were defeated and being cast down, then who was God directing his offensive wrath [“arrows and lightening”] towards? Logic says the perfect beings on earth rebelling against God.

Also, consider Job 26:11, where Job said:

"The pillars of the heavens quake,
aghast at his rebuke."

Also, consider Job 9:5, w