Did God Create Evil?

[CoreIssue]

Note: The first 55 posts here are reposts from the old board by CoreIssue.

Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 8:18 pm by CoreIssue

We know evil is out there. Did God create it?

[CoreIssue]

CoreIssue wrote:We know evil is out there. Did God create it?Honestly if you ever read the bible you will find it in numerous place where God said he creates evil. Infact he created Satan for his own purpose. Lucifer is not the name of the devil it was a bad translation but nevertheless God says who hes speaking to concerning this "lucifer". He was speaking to the king of Babylon nnot satan. Satan was never an angel of light, he transformed himself into and angel of light. God created the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The knowledge of Good and evil were in one tree and one fruit in the dirent center of the garden. This should have most clue in there was a plan for it. God knew all before hand and has a plan for the whole world. Nothing in history has ever taken him by surprise and I guarantee he's not in heaven running some damage control operation. God is in control and has been the whole time. He knows what it takes to bring his entire creation into salvation better than any of our puny little minds can even fathum.

[CoreIssue]

I think we agree in basics.

God did not create evil directly. He created the ability to do evil because freewill demands the ability to choose between two opposites.

Yes, on a quick glance that seems like a difference without point but it is a big difference.

Satan was not created to do evil but God knew he would so he took that knowledge and incorporated it into his own plans.

The Tree of Knowledge was not created to cause Adam and Eve to fall but to give them choice to Fall.

For one to love God justice, righteousness and so on by choice one must be able to choose not to do them as well. God believes in freewill or we are just robots, which is pointless existence.

God is incapable of doing evil because of his choices, not because he lacks the capacity.

This principle of everlasting choice is self evident in angels, man and such. The angels began good but some chose to rebell. We begin sinful but some choose to repent. Now those choices are eternal. There will be no repentence in the Lake or rebellion in Heaven.

As for Satan never being an angel of light all I can say is that he was created the most power, beautiful and radiant angel. He was the covering angel of the Throne of God. He was adorned in gems and precious stones that would have glowed, sparkled and shone brightly.

I do believe it is an important issue and concept to understand because it speaks powerfully to the nature of God, his view of us and just how just and righteous he is.

[CoreIssue]

CoreIssue wrote: I think we agree in basics.

God did not create evil directly. He created the ability to do evil because freewill demands the ability to choose between two opposites.

Yes, on a quick glance that seems like a difference without point but it is a big difference.

Satan was not created to do evil but God knew he would so he took that knowledge and incorporated it into his own plans.

The Tree of Knowledge was not created to cause Adam and Eve to fall but to give them choice to Fall.

For one to love God justice, righteousness and so on by choice one must be able to choose not to do them as well. God believes in freewill or we are just robots, which is pointless existence.

God is incapable of doing evil because of his choices, not because he lacks the capacity.

This principle of everlasting choice is self evident in angels, man and such. The angels began good but some chose to rebell. We begin sinful but some choose to repent. Now those choices are eternal. There will be no repentence in the Lake or rebellion in Heaven.

As for Satan never being an angel of light all I can say is that he was created the most power, beautiful and radiant angel. He was the covering angel of the Throne of God. He was adorned in gems and precious stones that would have glowed, sparkled and shone brightly.

I do believe it is an important issue and concept to understand because it speaks powerfully to the nature of God, his view of us and just how just and righteous he is.


I would like to ask you about theses scriptures.
Roman 9:21
"Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Is this not saying God is in control of how we turn out? Not just the fact that we came into existance but God has the power and uses it to make some a vessel of honour, and some unto dishonor. God leads all mankind into whatever place he wants them in whatever condition he wants them at his own FREEWILL. We do not have FREE will Only God is all soveriegn and if we had FREE will God would not be ALL sovereign but he is and I thank him everyday for that. If my destiny were up to my own will I would be in a life of chaos. We dont chose to go to hell or heaven that choice is already made before the foundations of the earth. God calls and chooses who he pleases at his freewill. Since when do we choose God? The bible clearly states that God chose us not the other way around. He blinds who he wants to the truth and he reveals the truth to whom he pleases. He hardens the hearts of whom he chooses and opens up others to recieve as he pleases. there is no room for mans fabled free will or his fabled eternal pit of fire. The book of revelation is a book of symbols and spiritual knowledge not carnal matereal earthy understanding. I Guarantee you struggle all the time with scriptures and it frustrates you. Im not trying to be rude I speak as I do to maybe open you eyes to the true Good news of Gods word.
As for the devil ever being an angel you are going to have to find all the scriptures you can on this subject and post them here and Ill will reply. I have yet to find one. If you look up lucifer and read all the scripture surrounding this word you will find God is giving the king of babylon this name in contrast to where the king is and then informs him how far he is going to tear him down. Lucifer is only mentioned that one time in the bible in Isaiah and that is it. Remember also that scipture is interpreted with scripture and spiritual with spiritual. If there is only one scripture concerning this word lucifer than you need to study it long and hard until you get the truth of it. I promice you Ive studied this along time and lucifer is not the name of satan.
Satan was created evil for a purpose and God is using him to bring about his perfect plan. Gods ways arent our ways.
As for being robots concerning the lack of our free will consider the potter and the pot analogy. what is the difference. We are the clay in the hand of God and he will mould us and smash us and remold us in any fashion which pleases him and brings in his redemptive plan.
This requires some heavy prayer for God to show you the truth about our throne building fabled freewill. Man will grasp at anything to sit on his own throne of his own life With ALL the I this, I that, I will, I can, nonsense. This is an idol of the heart and it too must be repented of. God is in control and if we say we have freewill to choose than we have just put up a throne in our life sitting on it and claiming ourselves to be God and all that is called God in our lives. Only God is soveriegn. He is in control.
1tim 4:10-11
"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL men, SPECIALLY (not excusively) of those that believe. 11These things command and teach"
Is this what we teach? No, we teach if you dont recieve Jesus before you die thats it no more chances no more time you going to burn in the lake of fire for all eternity.
Now 1 Timothy makes it clear that all are saved but the ones who believe and I mean believe the truth not lies and deceptions will be called the elect who rule and reign with Christ for a 1000 years. To be with Jesus bringing the fall harvest in of all those who were not chosen during this age..yet...and yet here we have the churches telling people they will burn forever for not knowing or recieving Christ as their personal Lord and saviour. Makes no sense to me but maybe you've justified these scriptural condradictions idont know.
“That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside Me. I am the Lord, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I made peace [good], and CREATE EVIL: I the Lord do all these things” (Isa. 45:6-7).
Well there it is "and CREATE evil" not just use it.
14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19For it pleased the Father that in him should all ful1ness dwell; 20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. Col 1:14-20


Where are the Billions of people in these verses burning in an Eternal, everlasting torment? Are they left out of this scripture somewhere? Sounds like nothing and no one is left out in all creation doesn’t it? That’s because nothing or no one is left out.
Heres some food for the spirit. If I come off a bit sarcastice its intentional, I try to keep it down but when people (not just you) portray my Father in heaven as a mere carnal beast being no better than his creation it gets me a little heated but I am heated out of love for my brothers and sisters in this world who I wish could recieve the truth of the "good news".
Anyways im off so God bless and I pray you understand these profound truths.
I am available all the time for questions or comments good or bad.
Take care and may God open all eyes who read this.

[CoreIssue]

You sound Universal with just a little dash of Mormonism thrown in.

Where do you get your doctrine?

[CoreIssue]

Chrystalwuzhere wrote: You sound Universal with just a little dash of Mormonism thrown in.

Where do you get your doctrine?


I believe in universal salvation because the Bible teaches it but I am not a universalist, I find universalism twists scripture as well.
And no im not a mormon or a jehovahs witness or any religious sect on this planet other than I have the spirit of truth in me leading me into all truth. I do not follow man (any man) concerning scripture. Jesus said "my sheep hear my voice" I hear the spirit of the Lord who leads me not men with their deception and scripture twisting. The word of God is easily understood if aproached honestly. When we throw in lies and deception none of it will make sense, also if one can manage to make some sense out of a certain belief it only puts more darkness on the rest of the word of God.
I was trapped in the deception and doctrines of Christendom for a good part of my life but I was honest and zealous to find the truth. I often times found the pulpit very dirty. And now I know why.
I have prayed and begged God to reveal to me His truths and he finally answered after years and years of begging.
I believe Now I have been called and chosen to preach "the GOOD news" How can the many of the world suffering in eternal torment be "GOOD news"?
Anyway I have a few posts in this forum if you care to check them out Ive written quite a bit already and I just signed up tonight.
God Bless and I hope this helps you.

[CoreIssue]

Quote:I have the spirit of truth in me leading me into all truth. I do not follow man (any man) concerning scripture
And if i believe what you write i would be following a what a mere man thinks wouldn`t I.
What makes you think the Holy Spirit has filled you with more truth than someone else, not all feelings come from God you know.

[CoreIssue]

I have the spirit of truth in me leading me into all truth. I do not follow man (any man) concerning scripture
And if i believe what you write i would be following a what a mere man thinks wouldn`t I.
What makes you think the Holy Spirit has filled you with more truth than someone else, not all feelings come from God you know.

Any problems with what I have said are not a problem with me or anything I say. The your arguments are with the word of God. I have posted many scriptures in this forum that not one has been able to refute, I promt no one to follow my wors I am merely presenting the word of God and so far all I've heard from anyone is that I am wrong and I have even been told I rewrote certain scriptures wich is a lie.
1Tim 4:10-11
"10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 11These things command and teach."

I was accused of rewriting this scripture. Why? Because no one will believe the word of God. Most in the church of christendom read the scriptures all the time but never understand because they never question the teachings of the pulpit. Jesus said "they hated me so also shall they hate you for my name sake"
read this scripture again in your bible if you too think im rewriting scripture. Jesus is the saviour of all men "specially" those that believe. Its plain and simple yet "few understand".
I wait for a reply.

[CoreIssue]

Hmmm. Some good questions asked of you by Chrystal and ITW. I will be interested to see your replies.

As for the verses you were answered in other topics. No need to multiply one set of questions over several topics.

[CoreIssue]

To me, good and evil are results, not creations. Good results
from following God's will, and evil results from not following God's
will.



Perhaps my assessment is overly simplistic, but hey, it works for me. http://www.christiantalkzone.net/archive/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[CoreIssue]

Budgies wrote:To me, good and evil are results, not creations. Good results
from following God's will, and evil results from not following God's
will.

Perhaps my assessment is overly simplistic, but hey, it works for me.

More an absolute bottom line definition than over simplistic. Just doesn't get involved with the mechanics of the whole thing.

[CoreIssue]

Budgies wrote:To me, good and evil are results, not creations. Good results
from following God's will, and evil results from not following God's
will.

Perhaps my assessment is overly simplistic, but hey, it works for me. http://www.christiantalkzone.net/archive/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif
You said a mouthful there. I am sorry I overlooked what you were really saying there.
You say ""to me", good and evil are results, not creations".
To you, yes, in your opinion? Yes, not in Gods opinion. Not "to" God.

Isaiah 45:6-7
"That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do all these things"

[CoreIssue]

Quote: Isaiah 45:6-7 "That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do all these things"



But is this referring to God creating the capacity to do evil is God creating something deliberately that is actively evil? Or is it talking about something else entirely? If deliberately then that makes God guilty of an evil act.
Or maybe you do not understand what it is actually saying?
Let us look at it in a modern English:
Quote: 6 so that from the rising of the sun
to the place of its setting
men may know there is none besides me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other.
7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.

Hmmmm. A disaster is not evil in all cases when it is judgment as was the Flood.
But to be sure let us look at the definition of the word here:
Quote:Strong's Number: 07451 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/browse.cgi?number=7451&version=kjv) Original WordWord Origin[rfrom (07489 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=7489&version=kjv))Transliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=07451&version=kjv#Legend) EntryRa`TWOT - 2191a,2191cPhonetic SpellingParts of Speechrah http://bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=7451h) Definitionadj
bad, evil
bad, disagreeable, malignant
bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)
evil, displeasing
bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)
bad (of value)
worse than, worst (comparison)
sad, unhappy
evil (hurtful)
bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)
bad, evil, wicked (ethically)
in general, of persons, of thoughts
deeds, actions n m
evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity
evil, distress, adversity
evil, injury, wrong
evil (ethical) n f
evil, misery, distress, injury
evil, misery, distress
evil, injury, wrong
evil (ethical)
Hmmmm. Evil is only one of the definitions. And you are reading from a style of English no longer used so you cannot demand evil then is as evil now is used, which it is not.
And finally prosperity positioned opposite to disaster makes sense where peace positioned against evil does not when used as you are using it.
Yep. You are misinterpreting the verse.
You sincerely need to stop studying in the KJV. At least in it alone.

[CoreIssue]

Roman 9:21
"Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Is this not saying God is in control of how we turn out?

No.
You show a lack of knowledge over making pottery.
A potter can sit down and use the same batch of clay and make the same bowl over and over all day, put them in the oven together and remove them together.
But some of the bowls will turn out beautiful and perfect while others break in furnace, distort in shape, take on bad colors and so on. And of course all the inbetween combinations that allow for some use but lower the value of the bowl.
The potter immediately shatters the rejected bowls upon inspection and throws them in the discard heap.
And that is why the potter was used as an example. It shows that God makes us all from the same materials but allows our own characteristics and choice to determine how we turn out.
In otherwords, God recognizes and allows freewill.
And Romans 8 clearly declares that. He foreknows, not predestineds, who will love him. And then he predestines those who will love him all the way to glorification.
Note there is zero mention of predestining those who not love him to anything. The predestine themselves to the Lake.
So God does not create evil beings or acts.

[CoreIssue]

Core issue said “Hmmmm. Evil is only one of the definitions. And you are reading from a style of English no longer used so you cannot demand evil then is as evil now is used, which it is not.”


bad, evil
bad, disagreeable, malignant
bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)
evil, displeasing
bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)
bad (of value)
worse than, worst (comparison)
sad, unhappy
evil (hurtful)
bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)
bad, evil, wicked (ethically)
in general, of persons, of thoughts
deeds, actions n m
evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity
evil, distress, adversity
evil, injury, wrong
evil (ethical) n f
evil, misery, distress, injury
evil, misery, distress
evil, injury, wrong
evil (ethical)This sounds like evil to me but here you go again picking what you think is best in order to lighten the fact that God creates evil. What other definition could possibly mean evil if in regards to man doing evil. Evil had to come from somewhere and I know I didn’t create it and you didn’t create it. You tell me continuously that I am practicing shopping cart theology when you yourself are guilty of more then just picking scriptures to further your point, you look up a word and decide what definition best suits your theology.
The word evil “ra’, rah is used 437 times out of a total of 475 times in the old testament. The same evil that men do is the same evil that God created. Honestly you deceive yourself by butchering the word of God until you yourself cant see the apples for the oranges. God created evil (ra’) and man acts on the same evil God created. God created this evil and men commit this evil, NOT GOD as you have stated I said. The evil of men is “ra’” and the evil that God created is (ra’) so your argument is once again with the scriptures not with me. You will continue to struggle with the word until you start reading it for what it says and stop trying to sound like a theologian trying to push relative points of views and start seeing the absolute. God created evil for a purpose and you don’t understand that purpose so you try to discard the fact that he did create evil. You make God a mere mortal who makes mistakes. God does not make mistakes. Before He even began creating he had a plan of salvation for the world. He knew Adam and Eve would sin (or do you think that took God by surprise?). He put the serpent in the garden (how else did he get there?). Evil was necessary in Gods plan (this includes the serpent). Have you ever read the book of Job? Satan can do nothing without getting permission from God. He had to go to God to ask if he could bring evil on Job God gave him permission and set limits on what Satan could do. “Touch ALL that he has, but spare his life”. Satan had to ask numerous times for God’s permission.
I ask again did Satan deceive Adam and Eve without Gods knowledge? An emphatic NO. He always has to ask God. God is ALL sovereign and powerful and knows all of mans comings and goings. You yourself are guilty of making God out to be a fallible human who has made numerous mistakes according to your theology. Who has no idea what his creation is up to. This will be the last I will speak on the subject of “did God create evil” because I have stated a powerful argument here and I will not continue to waste anymore time on this subject. Either you really don’t understand (which I find hard to believe) or you are having a hard time dealing with the fact that God did create evil and your Christian indoctrinated mind will not allow you to accept this truth because it will open up so much more fallacy than just this one subject.
If God really did create evil, and knowingly put the serpent in the garden whom God also created for a purpose than God will have to take responsibility for his creation. This doesn’t sit well with you because you would rather God be fallable and have to throw the majority of his faulty creation into an eternal fire to be tortured forever and ever.
You will probably never abandon this heresy no matter what beast you have to make God out to be. God has a plan and a purpose and a time and a season for everything he has preordained in all creation.

Mathew 18:12-14 KJV
12How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.


Mathew 18:12-14 The concordant literal new testament
12 "What are you supposing? If it should be occurring to any man, with a hundred sheep, that even one of them should be led astray, will he not leave the ninety-nine sheep on the mountains, and go and seek the one which is straying?
13 And if he should come to find it, verily, I am saying to you that he is rejoicing over it, rather than over the ninety-nine that have not strayed.
14 Thus it is not the will in front of your Father Who is in the heavens that one of these little ones should be perishing.

It is the Fathers will that none should parish. But you will say “yes, It is not his will that any parish but if they do it is their choice to parish”
Why do you think Jesus used the name “sheep” to describe us? It’s because to God we are no smarter than sheep. A sheep will wander off not realizing he has even gone astray and don’t really know the difference that they were saved either. To them they were never lost. Like most of the world, goes astray from the truth of God (if they ever understood or heard it in the first place) and don’t even know they are lost.
God will not let any be lost he is the GOOD SHEPPARD. He is a perfect Sheppard who will never let any parish no matter what. He has a plan to bring about the salvation of the world and your theology and mans knowledge will never change it from happening.
Nevertheless let your WILL be done Lord. His will and word will go throughout all creation and will NOT return to him void.

You say I’m reading from a style of English that is no longer used. What does that prove? We don’t follow any given translation because they are all faulty but we study scripture against scripture and this is how you find the truth of any doctrine.

I will wait for your reply.

PS: I know I am sounding a bit harsh here but I assure you My intentions are well founded and I truly do Love you as a brother or sister and I know I will meat you one day when all is said and done.

[CoreIssue]

Quote:This sounds like evil to me but here you go again picking what you think is best in order to lighten the fact that God creates evil.

No. I am simply not commiting the error you are commiting by saying God did evil.Capacity to do evil for the sake of freewill is one thing. Creating a being, as you claim Satan was, as evil is another. That is an evil act itself.
Plus that kind of statement on Satan shows you do not know what the Bible says. It says Satan was created perfect and above all other angels and later BECAME evil.
Quote: What other definition could possibly mean evil if in regards to man doing evil.
That verse is not talking about man doing evil. It is talking about the creation of the ability to do evil by God.Quote: Evil had to come from somewhere and I know I didn’t create it and you didn’t create it.
This is a statement lacking in understanding.
The ability to do is not the same as doing. Think about that.
Freewill requires the ability to do right and wrong. God, the angels and Man has freewill. But that does not mean God or the angels that did not fall will ever do evil.
Ability versus action.
A gun is a "created" thing. It is neither good or evil. But the use it is put to can be put to can be either good or evil.
Quote:You tell me continuously that I am practicing shopping cart theology when you yourself are guilty of more then just picking scriptures to further your point, you look up a word and decide what definition best suits your theology.
No. I do not.
You error in misunderstanding what the KJV is saying and then get mad when it is pointed out.
Does not the ability to do evil require the capacity to do evil?
You are not saying, in example, Satan did evil exercising his choice. You are saying God created Satan as an evil being which makes God guilty of doing an evil thing.
Quote:The word evil “ra’, rah is used 437 times out of a total of 475 times in the old testament. The same evil that men do is the same evil that God created.
Capacity versus action. You make God guilty of committing evil.

Quote:He knew Adam and Eve would sin (or do you think that took God by surprise?).
But he did not create them to commit evil. He created them with freewill choice which includes the capacity to do evil.

And he knew they would and incorporated a foreknown action into his Plan.

You have God predestining them to do evil. Which means God programmed them to do so which makes God guilty of committing evil by forcing a being to be evil.

Quote: He put the serpent in the garden (how else did he get there?).
Satan was cast out of Heaven. God did not place him there by his own hand but knew what he would do and encompassed it in his Plan.
Quote:Evil was necessary in Gods plan (this includes the serpent).
Was it? Or did God know in freewill some would do evil and he had to account for that in his Plan?

You don't have the answers you think you do.
Quote:Have you ever read the book of Job? Satan can do nothing without getting permission from God. He had to go to God to ask if he could bring evil on Job God gave him permission and set limits on what Satan could do. “Touch ALL that he has, but spare his life”. Satan had to ask numerous times for God’s permission.
Again you error.

God placed limits on how angels could interact with Man.

Did Satan ask God if he and 1/3 of the angels could rebel? Think about how stupid even the idea of that sounds and is.

Quote:I ask again did Satan deceive Adam and Eve without Gods knowledge?
Knowledge, yes. Permission, no.
Quote: An emphatic NO. He always has to ask God.
Oh, sure. "God, may I deceive Adam and Eve and bring sin into Man."

"Sure, go ahead since I created you to do that."

What absurd foolishness.
Quote: God is ALL sovereign and powerful and knows all of mans comings and goings.
Yes he is. But that does not equate to God programming evil into beings.

To do so would make God totally unjust in sending anyone to the Lake for a second. And make him totally unjust in forcing someone to do evil at all.
Quote:You yourself are guilty of making God out to be a fallible human who has made numerous mistakes according to your theology.
Nope.

Your thinking God cannot embrace freewill using his foreknowledge to account for it in his Plan is lacking and turns God puppeteer.
Quote:Who has no idea what his creation is up to.
I cannot help it if you have a false perception of God and freewill.
Quote:This will be the last I will speak on the subject of “did God create evil” because I have stated a powerful argument here and I will not continue to waste anymore time on this subject.
Nope. Your argument is totally lacking and stips God of mercy, kindness and love.
Quote:

Either you really don’t understand (which I find hard to believe) or you are having a hard time dealing with the fact that God did create evil and your Christian indoctrinated mind will not allow you to accept this truth because it will open up so much more fallacy than just this one subject.



Yep. I am a Biblical Christian. Nope, you are not.
Quote:If God really did create evil, and knowingly put the serpent in the garden whom God also created for a purpose than God will have to take responsibility for his creation.
God did not create evil acts and did not place Satan in the Garden.
Quote: This doesn’t sit well with you because you would rather God be fallable and have to throw the majority of his faulty creation into an eternal fire to be tortured forever and ever.
It amazes me you so reduce God to not be able to see his ability to embrace freewill, see actions in his foreknowledge and then predestine things to come out exactly according to his Plan.

I see a far more powerful and complex God than you do, obviously.
Quote:You will probably never abandon this heresy no matter what beast you have to make God out to be. God has a plan and a purpose and a time and a season for everything he has preordained in all creation.
No. I will not abandon it nor do I turn God into a puppeteer forcing beings to commit evil.
Quote:

Mathew 18:12-14 KJV
12How dred think ye? if a man have an hunsheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.



HA! Your position is the one that predestines the sheep to go astay. Not mine.

God allows choice and so go astray. But he always tries to turn them back.
Quote:

Mathew 18:12-14 The concordant literal new testament
12 "What are you supposing? If it should be occurring to any man, with a hundred sheep, that even one of them should be led astray, will he not leave the ninety-nine sheep on the mountains, and go and seek the one which is straying?
13 And if he should come to find it, verily, I am saying to you that he is rejoicing over it, rather than over the ninety-nine that have not strayed.
14 Thus it is not the will in front of your Father Who is in the heavens that one of these little ones should be perishing.



Same answer.

No, not his desire. But he will allow it.
Quote:It is the Fathers will that none should parish. But you will say “yes, It is not his will that any parish but if they do it is their choice to parish”
As posted before in modern English, he does not want or desire any to be lost. That does not say some will not be.
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God will not let any be lost he is the GOOD SHEPPARD. He is a perfect Sheppard who will never let any parish no matter what. He has a plan to bring about the salvation of the world and your theology and mans knowledge will never change it from happening.
Nevertheless let your WILL be done Lord. His will and word will go throughout all creation and will NOT return to him void.


And you still do not deal with the verses that refute you in how you twist these passages.

Quote:You say I’m reading from a style of English that is no longer used. What does that prove? We don’t follow any given translation because they are all faulty but we study scripture against scripture and this is how you find the truth of any doctrine.
It proves you will not use the clear reading verses that do not permit your claims. Instead you use vague wordings, for today, that allow you to try to get away with these claims when even they do not when studied out against the whole Bible.

You talk about using scripture with scripture but when a verse refutes you then you start making wild claims of error in translation. Or when a word you hate one place is used in another where you love its meaning you just get mad and go elsewhere talking loud and long as if that will make the problem for you go away.

Quote:I will wait for your reply.
You got it.

Quote:PS: I know I am sounding a bit harsh here but I assure you My intentions are well founded and I truly do Love you as a brother or sister and I know I will meat you one day when all is said and done.
Hmmmm. Brothers and Sisters who are Christians, a word you detest?

[CoreIssue]

I will use blue for your quotes and black for my replies as I still haven’t figured out how to quote pieces of text from your replies. It just quotes your whole page. Maybe you can help me figure that out to make it easier for me, Thank you for any help.

No. I am simply not commiting the error you are commiting by saying God did evil.

It is your mindset that pushes you to think God commited evil by creating Satan already evil. Satan does the evil works. But God created him for that purpose. You say “if God created Satan evil, than he (God) commited an evil act”. The bible shows Satan is really the club in Gods hand.
We will go to the book of Job on this. I’m sorry I have to use the KGV But I have no other translation as yet. The point is still made clear using any translation.
Job 1:6-7
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. 7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

First of all the sons of God came to God…..with Satan. Why? Because he was required to present himself to the Lord with the angels. Satan was in heaven presenting himself to God. Sounds strange in light of christion doctrine.
Next, God asks for an account of where Satan came from. (God already knew of course). So Satan gives an account. Why would Satan have to present himself with the sons of God?

Job 1:8-12
8And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? 9Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? 10Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. 11But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. 12And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Next Job was perfect in all his ways and God blessed him in all that he had. God brings up Job to Satan. Why would he bring up Job? Was he trying to set Satan against him? Of course (for a purpose).
Then Satan asks ‘Doth Job fear God for nought” Then Satan continues to discuss the situation with God as if he is sure wether Job would sin if GOD WERE TO PUT FORTH HIS HAND . Would Job sin? Then God says “Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand”.

God was not allowing this for his personal enjoyment to see Job suffer, he had a plan.
But according to your reasoning this should be considered an evil that God commited.
Satan had no Phantom “freewill here to do anything. God had to give him the go ahead.
Satan could not act on any phantom “freewill”, he had a limit until further notice..
So God, above all was behind it all. God told Satan what he could do and what he couldn’t do. No “freewill” here at all.
Satan was sure Job would sin but we know he didn’t. And who was it that Job said did this to him????

Job 1:20-22

20Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped, 21And said, Naked came I out of my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD. 22In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

So the Lord gave , and the Lord has taken away. So Job knew that God had done this but never said “since the Lord has done this he has committed an evil act”. No, Job was not that foolish. He worshiped instead. In essence Job sinned not.

To you, If God created Satan for this purpose he has committed an evil and this is where you sin. You charge God foolishly. Because God created Satan evil, does not mean that God has committed evil. The evil he created (Satan) has a purpose in Gods redemptive plan. Job knew this, But you accuse God of being evil. This is where Job sinned not.

Once again Satan came also with the sons of God. And what did God do again? He brings up Job again. Now there seems to be a pattern emerging here.

Job 2:3-10
3And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause. 4And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life. 5But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face. 6And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.
7So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown. 8And he took him a potsherd to scrape himself withal; and he sat down among the ashes. 9Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die. 10But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? (ra’) In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Satan always tells God that if he (God )would put forth his hand (God’s) against Job that Job would curse him. Then God says back to Satan that Job is in his (Satan’s) hands. Gods hand of judgment is Satan and always has been. He is the tempter and the bringer of evil. God tries and proves all mankind through Satan.
Funny, God does not do this evil personally, he has given that Job to Satan. Satan’s purpose perhaps? Just the same as when the spirit lead Jesus out into the desert to be tempted of the devil. It was Satan’s purpose.
Once again Satan Has been given power over Job to smite him, but, but he is given another limit not to take Jobs life. Where is Satan’s free will? He doesn’t have free will.
God is in control of him every step of the way. Why? Because God has a plan and a purpose for his children through the work of Satan. Furthermore Satan never has the power to do anything without God first giving it to him. No free will.
Now here comes the juicy part.
Jobs wife tempts him to sin against God by cursing God. And Job tells her she speaks as a fool. Then goes on to say “shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?”
Wow the same words used to describe the tree that started it all. The word “evil” here is “ra’” the same “evil” describing the tree and the same “evil” that God created.
Job said that we receive good from God and evil From God. But God didn’t do the work of evil he sent Satan and Satan did it with his (Satan’s) hand. But Job once again knew God was behind it. But knew in his heart there was a purpose for it. Because Job knew there was a purpose behind the evil on him he spent the rest of the book with his friends who didn’t understand telling them they were being foolish as was his wife because they foolishly charged God. God is justified by his doings no matter what you think about the fact that he created evil.

Plus that kind of statement on Satan shows you do not know what the Bible says. It says Satan was created perfect and above all other angels and later BECAME evil.

You err in this. Satan is not Lucifer. And I can prove this. We can start another topic on Lucifer but there is too much writing to post in this reply.
I will say one thing at this time about this. Lucifer is only used one time in the entire bible. Satan and the devil and many other names to describe him are used numerous times.
Lucifer once. Have you never wondered why? We can get into that another time even though it is extremely important concerning this subject. In fact when one sees the truth of this scripture the whole “God doesn’t create evil” claim completely falls apart.

You are not saying, in example, Satan did evil exercising his choice. You are saying God created Satan as an evil being which makes God guilty of doing an evil thing.
I covered this above in Job where Satan did not have “freewill”, free choice”.
Satan was Limited by God. He could only will what God allowed him. Hence, “no freewill.
Once again God did not do any evil. He created evil. Only in your reasoning do you think that it is evil for God to create evil.
Satan was created to do the evil. God created him, evil for a divine purpose.

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He knew Adam and Eve would sin (or do you think that took God by surprise?).

But he did not create them to commit evil. He created them with freewill choice which includes the capacity to do evil.
The biggest hindrance of receiving this truth that God created Satan evil and created evil for his purpose and will is this fabled “free will” you speak so HIGHLY of.
It is an idle of the heart.
Nebuchadnezzar was shown this truth after he first declared himself ruler over all he had and ruled over. Daniel interpreted the king’s dream and warned the king to repent. But he didn’t.
Daniel 4:29-30
At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon. 30The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?
Well this sounds like freewill to me. I can will to do good. I can will to do evil. I can will to sin or will to be righteous. I am in control of my destiny and Gods preordained plan for my life has no bearing on what I will to do. I can will to choose God or I can will to turn from God. God brought Nebuchanezzar down to the roots. Why? Daniel tells us exactly why.
Dan 4:25-26
That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will. 26And whereas they commanded to leave the stump of the tree roots; thy kingdom shall be sure unto thee, after that thou shalt have known that the heavens do rule.
You see Nebuchanezzar assumed his freewill choices gave him everything he had and made him everything he was and God said, no, no. God gave everything to him and made him great and blessed his works. The king only believed he had this freewill to obtain all his possessions and seat of power. It was God given.
Now God Brought great evil on the king but again it was for a purpose. God created evil for different purposes.
He brought evil against Job to prove him or try him. Job sinned not the whole time. This is a work of art. God will bring all of his creation to this point of “sinning not”. God says we are to endure and overcome all that comes our way but it is God that sends it our way so what you are lacking to see is God has a plan and a purpose for putting us through it. In order to be made in the likeness or image of God we must first experience evil and then God will teach us good, everyone in his own God ordained time. In the end we will come out as if tried by fire. We either go through the fire now or we will go through it later in the lake of fire to try us, not torture us for all of eternity.
1 Cor 3:13-15
Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. 14If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
This scripture might make a lot more sence to you if you would accept the fact that God created Satan evil and created evil for his purpose to bring all mankind to salvation but most of all this idol of the heart “freewill” which you have already stated that you will NEVER abandon. No man has freewill and neither does Satan. I have already shown you in scripture. God has free will alone and his will is to save ALL men. I know what your thinking right now.
“If mankind is all going to be saved in the end, then everyone can continue in sin and still be saved. This bothers you because you have worked so hard at choosing to follow Christ with your freewill and gave up so much sin in your life with your freewill and love God with your freewill that its not fare that God would save them.”
You didn’t choose God with your fabled freewill. God plainly states that he chooses us and it can never be the other way around. God says no one is seeking him. He chooses us. But you believe your freewill does this so in essence you call God a liar. You have repeatedly stated that you choose to follow God. No you don’t none of us have a choice one way or the other and the parables Jesus spoke in are proof of that. Jesus spoke in parables and the parables were pertaining to the kingdom of heaven. He revealed these parables to his diciples but not to the multitudes. Why? If he had of just revealed them to the multitude they would have received all understanding of the Kingdom.
Mark 4:11-12
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
Now why would Jesus not explain the parables to the multitudes if he knew they would be converted? Didn’t he come to save the lost? Of course he did and he gives a parable to prove that he will but on Gods preordained timetable not yours or mine. The parable that follows explains how if you have ears to hear. He uses a farmer planting corn and the farmer rises day after day and sees first the blade then the ear then when the fruit is brought forth he immediately puts the sickle in because the harvest is ripe. God will thrust his sickle into the earth and harvest his whole crop. Not to throw it into the fire to destroy as you have stated in an earlier post. God has a plan and just because you see people who do not know Jesus now does not mean that all these people will never know him and burn forever in your eternal fire forever. It is the fall hearvest that raises all the celebration and singing because the harvesting is finished and everyone rejoices. Why would anyone rejoice over throwing the whole fall harvest (the biggest part of the harvest) in the fire to burn away?
Listen, everything in the physical universe much farther than any telescope can see all constitutes creation right down to a grain of sand and a single hair on your head. Satan is in this creation, evil is in this creation, good is in this creation, powers and principalities on earth and in high places are nonetheless in creation and GOD CREATED IT ALL for his grand purpose. God has ordained a purpose for everything under the sun. This leaves no room whatsoever for your freewill. It doesn’t exist. God showed the king of Babylon this truth and the king accepted because he had no freewill to not accept it. Honestly did Jonah have freewill? No he didn’t. God chose him, made him do what he had purposed and Jonah gave in and did as he was told. No man can thwart the God of creations plans. He is a Father who loves his children and he is a Father who chastises his children for correction and raises them all to be sons and daughters in his growing family.
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Evil was necessary in Gods plan (this includes the serpent).

Was it? Or did God know in freewill some would do evil and he had to account for that in his Plan?

You don't have the answers you think you do.
You talk about his plan all the time but you doubt his ability to carry it through. The reason you think God cannot fully save all of his creation is because you believe you have a “freewill” that God will not interfere with. Do you honestly believe God would give any man a power that he (God) would willingly not interfere with no matter what Gods will or plan is? That would make us little gods of our own little world and if Satan had freewill do you think there would still be flesh on the earth? You say God had to account for some doing evil. Yes he did have to account for it but what your failing to understand is that he created the evil in the first place so of course he would have a plan for salvation from it. Besides the bible says that ALL have sinned, not some. And the same ALL are saved from the grave through Christ, which you deny.There is a purpose for evil and it is trying us (the elect) AS IF by fire now then those who have not been tried in this age will be tried in the lake of fire which is the all consuming fire (GOD THE FATHER). God will purge all sin and evil from the world and all creation when it has served its purpose not our fabled freewill.
Did Satan ask God if he and 1/3 of the angels could rebel? Think about how stupid even the idea of that sounds and is
This will have to be covered with the topic of Lucifer in a later discussion.
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I ask again did Satan deceive Adam and Eve without Gods knowledge?


Knowledge, yes. Permission, no.
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An emphatic NO. He always has to ask God.


Oh, sure. "God, may I deceive Adam and Eve and bring sin into Man."

"Sure, go ahead since I created you to do that."

What absurd foolishness.
My wording for “he always has to ask God” should have been, God had to allow him to deceive them.” Hence God placed them in the garden with the tree and with the serpent and you have to understand, the “ability to sin” as you say comes from the heart. Jesus said “if you so much as lust after a women with your eyes, you have committed adultery in your HEART”. All sin comes from the heart hence sin is evil. So evil was in their hearts before they even committed the act of disobeying God and taking the fruit physically. Rom 8:20-21
20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. The creature (creation) was made (created) vain (depraved).
Who created these sinful evil hearts in Adam and Eve? God making for the perfect ingredients for sin. You say free choice is why men sin but the truth is that God created us with weak flesh.
The serpent was primed for this and God set him in the garden. Knowing they would sin. And you say God knowing in advance of this that he purposed a plan for it. You lie because you don’t believe Gods plan will finish the Job because MOST will not make it because they can freely choose not to be saved by Gods plan making Gods plan and purpose way too shy of being completely effective. As well, Gods plan just isn’t good enough to save ALL according to you. God will fail according to Christians. My God will not fail he will accomplish ALL that he purposes and his word will not return to him void.

To do so would make God totally unjust in sending anyone to the Lake for a second. And make him totally unjust in forcing someone to do evil at all.
This is my point. To you and Christendom the lake of fire burns everyone FOREVER not for a second. And yes if God were to send anyone to a place like that he would be unjust, but the lake is symbolic of Gods purifying fire. God is the fire that tries everyone whether now or later but in his plan and timing. It is not a place of eternal torture. It has a much better purpose than that.

Your thinking God cannot embrace freewill using his foreknowledge to account for it in his Plan is lacking and turns God puppeteer

Do you hear what you are saying? God would have to EMBRACE freewill? I thought you said he created us with freewill? The claim that man has a freewill is a sin, and yes God did use his foreknowledge to account for sin. I have already shown that no one has freewill that can supersede Gods will and purpose.
Your biggest fear here and most Christians alike, is that you might be a puppet in Gods hand. You want God to be Lord over your life but with the exception of keeping your fabled freewill. You always want to believe you have control over all you do and choose. Jesus said, Eph 2:8-9 KGV
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith (the faith of one, Jesus); and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Greek literal
8 For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present,
9 not of works, lest anyone should be boasting.
We are saved by grace through the faith of Jesus not our faith in Jesus. But you don’t see it there do you? We have no faith until it comes from God. God give everyone a measure of the faith of Christ. By his faith in God the Father and by his works of grace we receive salvation. Not of ourselves in anyway. Salvation is not unilateral. It requires nothing on our part. If it did require of us anything (like your “freewill”, then we could boast. Jesus did it all, he finished it. He paid in full the debt for sin. So our sins (everyone’s sins) will be remembered no more. You say, “so we can sin all we want then”.
Rom 6:1-2
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Wow, why would paul have to make a statement like this “shall we continue in sin?” why did he say this. The reason is (I’ve been trying to tell you) everyone will be saved because Christ Jesus saved them all and there is no remembrance of their sin anymore as far as the Grave goes. Death could no longer hold them because of sin any longer so Paul knew they would be wondering about this. That is why he commented on this. What other reason would he ask such a question? What was different that would make anyone feel that they could get away with sin that grace may abound? There is nothing unilateral about our salvation no voluntary commitment on our part at all.
Even in the KJV with all its mistakes you will not find the word “responsibility”.
We are accountable to God for all our actions, not responsible for our salvation. God is responsible for our salvation and him alone. We must give an account for all we have done. Accountability and responsibility are two different words with two different meanings.

[CoreIssue]

I cannot help it if you have a false perception of God and freewill
I do not have a false perception of God and freewill. I have a perception of God and of a false freewill.
Freewill will have to go, there is no such thing. We can make choices, we have a will, but we do not have freewill to choose. Our will could only be free if our will did not have a cause. There are always circumstances that occur which will cause us to choose one choice over another because the circumstances only allow for the one choice. For example: Let’s just say I will cut my grass on Saturday. This is my will. The fact that the grass has grown too long is the cause for me to cut my lawn. Saturday comes, I look out my window and to my surprise it’s a rainstorm. Now, I can’t cut the grass until the rain stops because the lawnmower will plug up and I will get all wet. So I will have to wait till the rain stops or wait for another day. I have just given a multiple of examples of cause and effect. As well who is in control of the rain? Who controls and holds all creation together cohesively? God! My will is not free from cause and effect. Hence not free at all. My will is at the mercy of circumstances around me. My will is within the LAWS of cause and effect and cannot ever be outside of that. Something always causes our choices if we have the opportunity to choose for instance. What about the people that have ever lived who have never heard of God or Jesus and never received him as their Lord and savior?
The reason they never heard was because of their circumstances. They were not blessed to live in a civilized country where the word of God is printed by the billions.Whos in control over who hears the word and who doesn't hear the word? God! The word says God blinds those he chooses and opens the eyes of the (spiritually) blind. So is it their freewill that they used to choose to go to this eternal lake of fire because they never chose to receive Jesus? This is absurd; God is not sending anyone to an eternal lake of fire to be tormented for all eternity.And neither are the ones you say choose this damnation. This is foolishness. What about aborted babies? What about people with mental handicaps who cannot grasp The churches intellectual butchering of the word of God? And do not fully understand the choice they make to serve the Lord? These are living souls who are limited by their circumstances. Christians say children who are before the age of understanding which God only knows will be granted admission into heaven. Where is the scriptural proof of this? There is none, it is an assumption, an imagined thought. There is no need for it because Jesus has redeemed ALL, and ALL will be in the presence of the Lord forever.

Nope. Your argument is totally lacking and strips God of mercy, kindness and love.
No, God is merciful, kind and all love. You refuse to see his love in all this because you want all those who have not put as much effort into being saved as you have to go to this eternal torment because they haven’t worked for it like you.
Your freewill argument will not allow them to receive Gods mercy and kindness and love. My God is merciful. He has saved the world even though they do not deserve to be saved. That’s mercy! While we were in sin he gave his life for us. That’s love! In all this is his kindness. You don’t see God’s mercy kindness and love, nor do you see his sovereignty or his purpose because his purpose has to line up with your freewill. You think God had to embrace and work his purpose around your freewill. Do you hear how this sounds? And yet this is what you believe. I’m sorry but my argument is not lacking.

Either you really don’t understand (which I find hard to believe) or you are having a hard time dealing with the fact that God did create evil and your Christian indoctrinated mind will not allow you to accept this truth because it will open up so much more fallacy than just this one subject.

Yep. I am a Biblical Christian. Nope, you are not.

I will not comment on this because it is not comprehendible.

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This doesn’t sit well with you because you would rather God be fallable and have to throw the majority of his faulty creation into an eternal fire to be tortured forever and ever.

It amazes me you so reduce God to not be able to see his ability to embrace freewill, see actions in his foreknowledge and then predestine things to come out exactly according to his Plan.

I see a far more powerful and complex God than you do, obviously.

I have covered this above..


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You will probably never abandon this heresy no matter what beast you have to make God out to be. God has a plan and a purpose and a time and a season for everything he has preordained in all creation.


No. I will not abandon it nor do I turn God into a puppeteer forcing beings to commit evil.
You will one day abandon your fabled “freewill” but in Gods time. I have covered the puppet analogy earlier.
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Mathew 18:12-14 KJV
12How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.


HA! Your position is the one that predestines the sheep to go astay. Not mine.

God allows choice and so go astray. But he always tries to turn them back.
I have covered your first statement earlier, but as for your second statement you say God always TRIES to turn them back. Where in scripture has God TRIED to do something that he could not do? You say you believe in a much more powerful God than I do, yet your God cannot do anymore than TRY to bring his will about? I will say it again. It is God’s WILL that all be saved. He WILLS it, not TRIES it.
You fail to understand the scope of how you attempt to make your freewill stronger than God’s will. I really do pray for you to understand.
As posted before in modern English, he does not want or desire any to be lost. That does not say some will not be.
First of all much like the KJV most new translations have been biased translations all supporting this “eternal” damnation heresy. Once one sees the mistakes they will have the ability to understand the scriptures a lot clearer no matter what the translation. Besides it is the spirit of God that leads us into all truth not error filled bible translations. Don’t get me wrong, even with errors the truth can still found in the scriptures. This is why we study scripture with scripture.
Second of all you say God does not desire for any to be lost. None will be lost. You should sit down and listen to the song “amazing grace”. Just look at the name :AMAZING grace” It truly is amazing only you don’t really see it. “I was lost and now I’m found”. Anyways I’ve covered this on many points.
And you still do not deal with the verses that refute you in how you twist these passages
I have not twisted any passage. I have offered many scriptures of proof. I have dealt with every issue so far with the exception of “Lucifer and the fallen angels”. I will deal with those soon.
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You say I’m reading from a style of English that is no longer used. What does that prove? We don’t follow any given translation because they are all faulty but we study scripture against scripture and this is how you find the truth of any doctrine.


It proves you will not use the clear reading verses that do not permit your claims. Instead you use vague wordings, for today, that allow you to try to get away with these claims when even they do not when studied out against the whole Bible.
You attack the bible I use because your bibles are saying something different from mine? As I have said before, every bible is error filled. Nevertheless the scriptures I have used are plain and the only reason you have a problem is because your Christian theology is falling apart piece by piece. I have read other bibles including the NIV and the NABV and I still get the same results I have now. You cannot tell me I use the KJV because it’s easier to twist and make my claims with. This is nonsense. At this time it is the only version I have with the exception of online bibles. I use this version also because it is a common bible among Christians as well. Do you mean to tell me that any Christians who use the KJV will start seeing God and the scriptures the same way I do? This is foolishness. Why aren’t they leaving the churches by the hundreds then?

You talk about using scripture with scripture but when a verse refutes you then you start making wild claims of error in translation. Or when a word you hate one place is used in another where you love its meaning you just get mad and go elsewhere talking loud and long as if that will make the problem for you go away.

I have not seen any verses that you claim refute me. My only claims for errors in bibles are the words “aions” and “aionious”. These words were never used to imply timelessness yet most not all do. I have already explained this.
A word I hate in one place and love in another? Sorry I’m not following you here. When and where was this happening? And where else have I gone?
I talk long because the interpretation and context explanation requires it, hence I am not practicing shopping cart theology. I am not trying to make any problem go away for me. I do not have a problem with the scriptures. I understand them.

Quote:
PS: I know I am sounding a bit harsh here but I assure you My intentions are well founded and I truly do Love you as a brother or sister and I know I will meat you one day when all is said and done.


Hmmmm. Brothers and Sisters who are Christians, a word you detest?
All have been bought with a price (Jesus). One does not have to receive this gift, it is FREELY given and when God finishes his work in the earth we will all be together as brothers and sisters. I do not detest Christians, I detest their attempt to make God out to be weak and fallible not matching up to the strength of their fabled freewill. Some are deceived and I have compassion on them that is why I am doing what I am doing. God has given it to me and is using me (as a puppet).
Yes I’m a puppet if that’s what God wants me to be, I don’t see a problem with that.
God bless you ears and eyes.

[CoreIssue]

Stop and realize this...

Since when did evil become a thing to be created? Evil is not an object. Evil is basically when someone does something that is against the standards of what is right. Or the rules that have been layed out to be followed. Who sets that standard? God does.

How can God be blamed for Satan, or anyone else's decision to disobey?

Here's a point I ponder on...To use the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil as a point of reference in an argument such as this will not hold up because to do this makes it sound as if God is creating evil, and then tempting man to do it. God cannot be tempted with evil, and neither does He tempt any man. Scripture bears this out.

I just wonder if the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was really evil? I don't think it was. I think man's disobedience in partaking of the tree was what was evil. The fact that they disobeyed. The fact that they trusted Satan's word over God. They did not trust Him. They did what He told them not to do.

When evil is performed, be careful in assigning blame to God.

[CoreIssue]

Quote:
I will use blue for your quotes and black for my replies as I still haven’t figured out how to quote pieces of text from your replies. It just quotes your whole page. Maybe you can help me figure that out to make it easier for me, Thank you for any help.



No problem.

On the post you want to quote from put the cursor at the beginning of the part you want to quote, hold down the left click, drag and highlight what you want, let off the left click, put the cursor on the text, right click and copy. Then in the reply box put the cursor where you want the text, right click and paste. Then as with copying highlight the text you want to quote, put the cursor on the highlighted text and click. That will quote that text.

To click the Quote function in the post box will always quote the whole post.

Hope that helps.

Quote:
We will go to the book of Job on this. I’m sorry I have to use the KGV But I have no other translation as yet. The point is still made clear using any translation.



The Bible Tools link at the top contain links to Bible Gateway where you can access a lot of versions and an Interlinear Bible for word definitions in the Hebrew and Greek.

As for most the rest of your post Chrystal answered you. Evil is not a thing. Never was and never will be. It is disobedience of God's standards and Laws.

God created all Satan and the Angels with a knowledge of good and evil. He created them with capacity to do evil because without that ability they cannot do good in truth, since that makes them nothing but robots unable to do anything but good.

God created Adam and Eve with the ability to do evil but they could not be accountable for evil because they did not know what good and evil were.

Did he not create them naked? Did they know it was wrong to be naked? But was there any problem in being naked as long as they lacked the knowledge it was evil?

No. The knowledge of good and evil is key to commiting evil. One cannot be evil until they know it is evil. Well spelled out in Romans.

Quote:
I just wonder if the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was really evil?



No. It was not evil. God and the Angels know what evil is but they sure are not evil. They can do evil but never will.

In otherwords the capacity to do evil is not being evil. But it is essential to doing good to know what evil is.

And it is essential to choosing to do good or evil. And that is freewill which cannot exist without the knowledge of good and evil.

If God created Satan as a doer of evil then God committed evil by creating evil in action, which is sin. But he did not create evil in action.

You do not grasp this because of your false Calvinism doctrine.

You do not understand the distinction between foreknowledge considering freewill choices and predestined actions which are not choices at all. In one God uses the evil one chooses to do and in your God creates to evil actions by forcing one to be what they otherwise might not be.

Quote:I covered this above in Job where Satan did not have “freewill”, free choice”.
False. Satan came before God in freewill and acted against Job in freewill. Post where it ever says he was summoned.

Post where it says God created Satan to rebel and where Satan asked God's permission to rebel? That alone is a ridiculous sounding proposal that lacks any kind of logic.

Yes, when God places limits on Satan, as he did with Man, Satan cannot violate those limits without permission. Read Job carefully and you will see Satan said God had put Job off limits.

So you are making claims that you cannot support in the Bible.


The OT says Satan's pride caused him to rebel. Not that God created him prideful and to rebel.

You are arguing from a point of view of what you want to believe and not what the Bible teaches.

Quote:My wording for “he always has to ask God” should have been, God had to allow him to deceive them.”
And now you contradict yourself.

For if God allows but did not create Satan to deceive them that is a statement of Satan's freewill and not what God created Satan to do. You cannot have it both ways.

Quote:
All sin comes from the heart hence sin is evil. So evil was in their hearts before they even committed the act of disobeying God and taking the fruit physically. Rom 8:20-21



All have knowledge and the ability to commit evil, including God, angels and saints. But no angel or Adam were created with the desire to do commit evil.

God put the knowledge and ability in all. But that was essential to freewill and true love. He did NOT place the desire to put the ability into action to commit sin (evil actions or desires).

Do you deny the angels that did not rebel have the knowledge of good and evil or a capable of doing evil? Do you?
Quote:The creature (creation) was made (created) vain (depraved).
It does not say that. Nothing was created depraved.

Quote:20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/index.php?search=Rom%208:20-21&version1=31#fen-NIV-28123a)] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Subjecting creation to frustration is not creating creation in a depraved state.
Quote:Who created these sinful evil hearts in Adam and Eve? God making for the perfect ingredients for sin.
God created sinful evil hearts?

You cannot show that said anywhere in the Bible.

And you have declared God guilty of committing evil. Creating something deliberately evil makes God guilty of evil by his own hands.

Quote:[quote]This is my point. To you and Christendom the lake of fire burns everyone FOREVER not for a second.
That is not what was said to you.

To deliberately create someone evil and then put them in the Lake for the briefest momeny without them having any choice in the matter is unjust and grossly evil. But is exactly what you do.

But to have one choose to rejected God and good is them placing themselves in the Lake. That is just.
Quote:Do you hear what you are saying? God would have to EMBRACE freewill? I thought you said he created us with freewill? The claim that man has a freewill is a sin, and yes God did use his foreknowledge to account for sin. I have already shown that no one has freewill that can supersede Gods will and purpose.
God does embrace freewill.

You don't get it. God includes freewill choice in his will and purpose. Clearly shown throughout the Bible.
Quote:faith of Jesus not our faith in Jesus
Again the KJV bites you. Look it up in other translations and so on. The of of the KJV means in.
Quote:What about the people that have ever lived who have never heard of God or Jesus and never received him as their Lord and savior?

I have posted on this issue several times including a topic of on the issue. Read here and you will see your thinking is erroneous:

Those Without the Gospel (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=268&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=indians)

Quote:The biggest hindrance of receiving this truth that God created Satan evil and created evil for his purpose and will is this fabled “free will” you speak so HIGHLY of.
Really?

Then explain the meaning of FREEWILL Offerings in the OT.

I will help you a bit in your confusion by posting the Hebrew definition and you can show me where it means predestined or without personal choice and not freewill:

Strong's Number: 05071 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/browse.cgi?number=5071&version=kjv) Original WordWord Originhbdnfrom (05068 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=5068&version=kjv))Transliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=05071&version=kjv#Legend) EntryN@dabahTWOT - 1299aPhonetic SpellingParts of Speechned-aw-baw' http://bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=5071h)Noun Feminine Definition

voluntariness, free-will offering
voluntariness
freewill, voluntary, offering

Election (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=121&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=freewill)

[CoreIssue]

Quote: When evil is performed, be careful in assigning blame to God.


His doctrine makes God the deliberately planner and creator of the evil he hates, judges and punishes on the earth during the Tribuation Period.
What does that say of God if true?

[CoreIssue]

Budgies wrote:To me, good and evil are results, not creations. Good results
from following God's will, and evil results from not following God's
will.

Perhaps my assessment is overly simplistic, but hey, it works for me. http://www.christiantalkzone.net/archive/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

No, it's not overly simplistic....I wholeheartedly agree!

[CoreIssue]

Chrystal said:
Since when did evil become a thing to be created? Evil is not an object. Evil is basically when someone does something that is against the standards of what is right. Or the rules that have been layed out to be followed. Who sets that standard? God does.

Since when does evil have to be a “thing” before it is possible to create it? Principalities and powers are not “things”, yet they are a product of creation. All principalities and powers were created by God. Good or evil!

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Eph 6:12

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom 8:28-29 Oh…..all these except my “freewill”. Sorry had to throw that in.

By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent. Job 26:13 Ahhh! God formed the crooked serpent.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isa 45:7 God creates evil.

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Col 1:15-17

Ok so do we believe the scriptures yet or do we have to keep on pulling scripture after scripture out. God is the only creator. Everything in existence, PRINCIPALITIES and POWERS, VISIBLE and INVISIBLE, THRONES or DOMINIONS. Good or evil, God created them. When will you believe the scriptures or do you find the whole bible and all bibles untrustworthy. What is it about the scriptures that cause you to deny them? I only say this because I truly do want you to see the glorious plan that God has for his creation. Once we find the false doctrines we can then and only then see the truth. Only God can remove the scales over your eyes. Stop hardening your heart and listen to God. He’s trying to tell you something. Don’t trust me, trust Gods word.

I can’t believe you never question the churches teaching but just blindly followed. Do I honestly sound like a cult? I don’t think so. I would be careful of who you say my doctrines come from. When the Pharisees accused Jesus of doing miracles in the name of Beelzebub he warned them about grieving the Holy Spirit. I followed Christendom for years. I truly Love God and always have but the doctrines taught in Christendom never lined up with scripture. I questioned this all the time and never got a straight answer, so God gave me the answers. Just because he created Satan to perform his works in this world does not mean that God committed evil, that’s why he created Satan to do the evil. Satan is the judgment hand of God. I hope you can see this. It’s completely evident through the scriptures. Satan has the evil work and he has no freewill. Satan does not operate outside of Gods control. God puppets him. God needed an adversary do complete his plan and so he created Satan. This is plain and is permeated through the scriptures.

Chrystal said:

Here's a point I ponder on...To use the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil as a point of reference in an argument such as this will not hold up because to do this makes it sound as if God is creating evil, and then tempting man to do it. God cannot be tempted with evil, and neither does He tempt any man. Scripture bears this out.
I hope it sounds like I said God created evil, that’s what I was trying to do.
I never said God tempts man, he uses Satan for that. I agree.


Chystal said:

I just wonder if the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was really evil? I don't think it was. I think man's disobedience in partaking of the tree was what was evil. The fact that they disobeyed. The fact that they trusted Satan's word over God. They did not trust Him. They did what He told them not to do.

When evil is performed, be careful in assigning blame to God.
No, your right, the tree itself was not evil. And yes again it was mans partaking of the tree that was a sin. They did disobey God, yes, BUT THEY WERE DECIEVED by the serpent. This is the whole reason why salvation is not unilateral. God took it in his own hands and gave his only begotten Son into the world to die FOR THE WORLD. He bought and paid for us with his life and you, I and the rest of the world are his. There is no part on your behalf for salvation. Not your acceptance or approval can change this. If you think it does than you call God a liar and Jesus suffering was in vain if we will suffer anyways in some fable eternal hell. That would mean mankind will still be paying the debt for their sin. This is heresy to think this. Let alone teach it to others. Jesus finished it. He paid the debt in FULL. Not part of it and he wasn’t shy of the debt one iota. He owes nothing and all creation belongs to him. And he will bring them all to the fullness of salvation.



I will start another thread (Is Lucifer Satan?) and prove that Lucifer is most definitely not Satan and never was. Neither was the king of tier. There is proof and there is no evidence that Satan fell from anything. Anyway chew on that but please stop skimming and actually read the passages I’ve given you. You will do well to yourself to really check it out.
God bless all ears.

Ps: I’m not Calvinist. Just because Calvinism has some similarities does not constitute me being Calvinist any more that the similarities of Mormonism make me a Mormon or Jehovah’s Witness, etc, etc.

[CoreIssue]

Quote:Since when does evil have to be a “thing” before it is possible to create it? Principalities and powers are not “things”, yet they are a product of creation. All principalities and powers were created by God. Good or evil!
Where does the Bible say God created any angel, Man or anything else sinful (commiting evil or evil in nature)? Nowhere.

It says they became evil.
Quote:For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Eph 6:12
Your verses such as this are false as evidence of being created evil.

It speaks of their condition now. Not as in how they were initially created.
Quote:By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent. Job 26:13 Ahhh! God formed the crooked serpent.
You refuse to stop using the KJV because without it you are sunk. The Old English when put into modern English betrays your false application.
Quote: 13 By his breath the skies became fair;
his hand pierced the gliding serpent.
It does not say he formed Satan as the serpent. It says he pieced and defeated Satan.
Quote:I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isa 45:7 God creates evil.
This verse has already been dealt with. It does NOT mean God creates sin in the world. He creates distress, calamity and so no which are NOT evil as in sinful.
Quote:Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Col 1:15-17
It does NOT say they were created evil or sinful. All were created good.

Post the verses where God says he ever created anything bad or sinful. You cannot.
Quote:Ok so do we believe the scriptures yet or do we have to keep on pulling scripture after scripture out.
We believe the scriptures but NOT your false twists and interpretations of what they say.

By your approach Adam was created sinful. Yet the Bible says he was created good, innocent and in union with God.

By your approach Satan was created sinful. yet the Bible says he was created the most beautiful angel in heaven who was the covering Cherub over the throne of God. He and those who later fell were all given domains, sanctuaries and places of their own that the LOST when they rebelled.

YOU are taking what things are now and demanding that is how God created them.

Your problem is that you refuse to see personal choices as being from God, part of God's Plan and part of God's will. You falsely propose God scripts our wills and being. A concept that does not exist in the Bible.

God's will and plans will be accomplished. Your understanding of his will and plan are flawed.

Quote:I can’t believe you never question the churches teaching but just blindly followed.
Bad comment. You are going to get ripped for that one.

You just screwed up big time as regards me. I am non denominational and study the Bible.
Quote: Do I honestly sound like a cult? I don’t think so.
Yes, you do.

This heresy has been rejected soundly from the beginning. It has never ever been accepted by the Body of Christ.
Quote: I would be careful of who you say my doctrines come from.

I am. It is not coming from the Holy Spirit.

You claim you hear the Holy Spirit but your only proof is your personal desire.

You cannot back you teachings from the Bible.

I believe the Holy Spirit talks to me and has gifted me. And my gifts and what I hear totally reject you.

Now, how do we test it? The Bible.

You fail the test.

I repeat. You will not stop posting from the KJV because without that old English your claims are dead because the meanings become clear.

Look up some of your claimed proofs above in the Interlinear in the the Bible Tools. Look at the word meanings and you will see you have a big problem.

[CoreIssue]

God says that all will stand before him without excuse.

Being able to blame God for your sin nature is an excuse.

That means noone is going to stand before God and say "well God you made me this way, I had no choice."

[CoreIssue]

Quote:
Do you mean to tell me that any Christians who use the KJV will start seeing God and the scriptures the same way I do? This is foolishness. Why aren’t they leaving the churches by the hundreds then?



You should really give that statement some thought.

[CoreIssue]

What does the Bible say about God and evil?

Truth101 says God created Adam and Satan evil. Does that add up with the Bible?

Quote: James 1.
13When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;



God does not tempt anyone with evil. Now surely if God created a being evil he is indeed tempting them to do evil.
Or is the argument God doesn't tempt them, he just creates them without choice to do evil? Quote:14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire,
So tempation comes from ones own desire. Not God.
The evil belongs to the person and not God.
Quote: he is dragged away and enticed.
The person's own evil desire is responsible. Not God.
Quote: 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
The desire comes from the person and not God. And that causes sin to be committed.
So the knowledge of evil is not sin. But when the knowledge becomes a desire to do evil and the evil is committed that is sin.


Quote: 16Don't be deceived, my dear brothers. 17Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
God does not change. He is the creator and giver of good and perfect things.
So the ability to do evil and the knowledge of evil are not bad, but good. But to act on evil and commit evil is sin and not good.
Quote:
18He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.


God gives life through truth. Sin give death through lies.
But to choose one must be aware of both good and evil. One must be able to choose good or evil.
God and angels know what evil is but they do not sin. Satan, the Fallen Angels and demons know what evil is and they do sin.
Sin is absence from God and all that entails. Good is presence with God and all that entails.
Those are eternal choices and you will not see flopping back and forth once made.

[CoreIssue]

Truth101 wrote:I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things</SPAN>. Isa 45:7 God creates evil.

Isaiah 45:7 [NIV]
I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.

Isaiah 45:7 [NASB]
The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and creating calamity;
I am the LORD who does all these.

Isaiah 45:7 [KJV]
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The Hebrew word for "prosperity" [NIV], "well-being" [NASB], and "peace" [KJV] is Shalowm (Strong's #7965), which means "completeness, soundness, welfare, peace" [Strong's Lexicon] and "safe, i.e. (figuratively) well, happy, friendly; also (abstractly) welfare, i.e. health, prosperity, peace:--X do, familiar, X fare, favour, + friend, X great, (good) health, (X perfect, such as be at) peace(-able, -ably), prosper(-ity, -ous), rest, safe(-ty), salute, welfare, (X all is, be) well, X wholly" [Strong's Hebrew Dictionary].

Now having defined a key term, the key behind the meaning of this verse is how it is structured in the form of two antithesis comparisons. In the first clause, it contrasts "light" and "darkness." All three of these Bible translations agree with this in their renderings. The second clause of this verse contrasts "prosperity" [NIV], "well-being" [NASB], and "peace" [KJV] with "disaster" [NIV], "calamity" [NASB], and "evil" [KJV]. Clearly, by structure and consensus, we see that the basic contrast of the second clause is "good fortune" with "misfortune." This means that the word ra' (Strong's #7451) is used under the meaning of "evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity" [Strong's Lexicon].

So no, Isaiah 45:7 does not say that God creates "evil" in the sense of sin, moral evil, or things in evil states.

Truth101 wrote:By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent. Job 26:13 Ahhh! God formed the crooked serpent.

Job 26:13 [NIV]
By his breath the skies became fair;
his hand pierced the gliding serpent.

Job 26:13 [NASB]
By His breath the heavens are cleared;
His hand has pierced the fleeing serpent.

Job 26:13 [KJV]
By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

When looking at the second part of this verse, notice that each of the translations referenced here provides a different rendering. The only solution to this problem is to refer to the Hebrew text.

The Hebrew word for "pierced" [NIV and NASB] and "formed" [KJV] is chuwl (Strong's #2342), which is used in the Polel word stem. It means "to writhe (in travail with), bear, bring forth" [Strong's Lexicon]. And the Hebrew word for "gliding" [NIV], "fleeing" [NASB], and "crooked" [KJV] is bariyach (Strong's #1281), which means "fleeing" or "fugitive" [Strong's Lexicon] and "a fugitive, i.e. the serpent (as fleeing), and the constellation by that name:--crooked, noble, piercing" [Strong's Hebrew Dictionary].

After defining the Hebrew terms in question, one finds that the Hebrew version of this verse says "his hand [twisted into coils (in laborious work), bore, brought forth] the [fleeing or fugitive] serpent." In other words, it means "God created the serpent that runs away or is a missing criminal," not "God created the serpent evil." In short, God created the serpent, which flees and is a missing criminal by its own actions.

Truth101 wrote:Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Col 1:15-17

This is correct. God did create everything in existence, as stated straightforwardly in this verse.

However, this verse does not say that he created sin, moral evil, or things in evil states. These are specific manifestations and applications of evil.

Instead, it simply says he created everything (Colossians 1:15-17), which would have been created in a perfect state (Deuteronomy 32:4). This means that evil would have been created in its most basic state, which is that of a possibility of choice, not anything tangible. It is when evil is acted upon that it begins to have a tangible presence, as shown by the consequences of Adam eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3).

Truth101 wrote:It is your mindset that pushes you to think God commited evil by creating Satan

already evil. Satan does the evil works. But God created him for that purpose.


Where is the Scriptural prooftexting that God created Satan as an evil being?

</SPAN>Truth101 wrote:Lucifer is not the name of the devil it was a bad translation but nevertheless God says who hes speaking to concerning this "lucifer". He was speaking to the king of Babylon nnot satan. Satan was never an angel of light, he transformed himself into and angel of light.

Where is the Scriptural prooftexting that Satan transformed himself into an angel of light?

That aside, your assertions are incorrect. First consider Ezekiel 28:12-17 and Isaiah 14:12-15:

In Ezekiel 28:12-17, when God is giving a prophesy against the King of Tyre, God uses Lucifer as an example, saying:

12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
You were a model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace
from the mount of God,
And I expelled you, O guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.
17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor;"

Notice the parallelism in these verses. In prophesizing the king of Tyre's fall, God is paralleling it to the expulsion of a cherub from God's presence and heaven. The cherub first became prideful and self-absorbed in its splendor (verse 17), then it became wicked (verse 15), resulting in it being driven from the mount of God (verse 16). Notice that certain things that are said here cannot be applied to the king of Tyre:
a) He was not perfect [verse 12], but only human.
b) He was not in the Garden of Eden [verse 13].
c) He is not a cherub [verse 14].
d) He did not walk the mount of God [verse 14].
e) He did not walk the mount of God, so he could not be driven from it [verse 16].

Now examine Isaiah 14:12-15, where God related the king of Babylon to Lucifer and his fall while talking to Isaiah,
12 "How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
13 You said in your heart,
'I will ascend into heaven;
I will raise my throne above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.'
15 But you are brought down to the grave,
to the depths of the pit."

Note: The Hebrew word for "morning star" [NIV], "star of the morning" [NASB], and "Lucifer" [KJV] is heylel (Strong's #1966), which means "shining one, morning star, Lucifer" and "light bearer" (Strong's Concordance). This definition offered by Strong's is somewhat misleading in the sense that the word "Lucifer" comes from a Latin translation of "morning star," not a Hebrew translation. However, this is irrelevant because it is an accurate linguistic equivalent.


Notice the same type of parallelism found in Isaiah 14. While taunting the king of Babylon about his future fall, God parallels it with the past fall or casting down of a "morning star" or angel (ref. Job 38:6-7), Lucifer, from heaven. Here an angel, Lucifer, desired to be enthroned above all on the sacred mountain of assembly in heaven (verse 13) and be like God (verse 14), thereby resulting in being cast down (verse 12). Notice that verse 12 cannot refer to the king of Babylon because he never was in heaven, so he could not be cast down from heaven.

At this point, notice how Ezekiel 28:12-17 and Isaiah 14:12-15 link together. Both passages describe a being that became too prideful, both in attitude (Ezekiel 28:17) and in expectation (Isaiah 14:13). Both passages describe a being being cast out of heaven (Ezekiel 28:16 and Isaiah 14:12). And at the same time, both passages compliment each other in the information they give. One gives a first-person account of why this being fell (Isaiah 14:13-14) while the other gives a third-person account of why this being fell (Ezekiel 28:15-17). One gives the name and identity of this being (Isaiah 14:12), while the other gives the function of this being (Ezekiel 28:14). In short, one cannot dismiss the idea that these two passages are related because there is two much linkage and complementation between them.

Now, how is Satan linked to Ezekiel 28:12-17 and Isaiah 14:12-15?

Consider Luke 10:18, where it states that Christ saw Satan fall from heaven in a past event. If God allows Satan to stand before his throne to accuse people day and night (Revelation 12:10), then why would he be cast down? The only answer to this is that Satan had just rebelled against God as Lucifer, which fits right into what Ezekiel 28:12-17 and Isaiah 14:12-15 say. Revelation 12:7-9 describes this rebellion, where the archangel Michael and the angels under his command fought against Lucifer (later Satan) and the angels that rebelled with him.

Further, Satan will try to establish an "anti-Trinity" during the Tribulation (ref. Revelation 16:13), where he will be a false Father (ref. Revelation 13:1, see other ref.), the AntiChrist will be a false Son (ref. Revelation 13:2, 4), and the False Prophet will be like a false Holy Spirit (ref. Revelation 13:11-14). This perfectly parallels Lucifer's active desire to be like God (Isaiah 14:12-15).

And finally, Satan will face judgment because of his pride (1 Timothy 3:6), just as Lucifer was cast down because of his pride (Ezekiel 28:17).

So, in short, we see Satan behaving like Lucifer did. This strongly implies that they must be one and the same.

Truth101 wrote:Do I honestly sound like a cult? I don’t think so. I would be careful of who you say my doctrines come from.

If God creates sin, moral evil, or things in evil states, then that means God is doing evil things. And if God does evil things, then this makes God an evil being. Thus, the inevitable result is that you worship a god of evil.

Truth101 wrote:I questioned this all the time and never got a straight answer, so God gave me the answers.

Your answers are illogical, contrary to Scripture, and based on arbitrary commentary. So I doubt they came from God.


</SPAN></SPAN>

[CoreIssue]

Truth101 wrote:You didn’t choose God with your fabled freewill. God plainly states that he chooses us and it can never be the other way around.

CoreIssue already covered Romans 8:29-30. But I see you need a refresher course.

Romans 8 [NIV]
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

*See also 1 Peter 1:2, Ephesians 1:4-5, Ephesians 1:11, etc.

Verse 29 says that God foreknew with the addition of predestination. In other words, within his foreknowledge God also predestined. Knowledge came before action. And God started by foreknowing those that would respond to his call.

However, one must note that verse 30 says that those God predestined he will also call. This means that not all men are called, but those who are predestined within God's foreknowledge are called.

In examining the contrast between verse 29 and 30, one must note that foreknowledge is the key. God starts with intellectual foreknowledge about certain individuals. And individuals are defined by their actions. Thus, within his foreknowledge, God is picking people based on their future actions. And it is logical to assume that God would pick people who would want to seek him and seek him.

At this point one might object by saying that even if God knows who will answer his call and reject it, he is still not giving people the chance to actually make the choice because their actions are already known. However, from the perspective of God's divine timelessness, his foreknowledge encompasses the inevitabilities of our choices given all the possibilities of the future and man's nature.

In addition, one must observe that Romans 8:29-30 does not speak of predestining any choices or actions. Rather, it predestines events that surround future choices and are based on those choices, thereby making predestination concurrently operate beside free will.

At this point one must differentiate between the conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8-11) and God's call (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14). The conviction of the Holy Spirit is universal, but God's call is selective. This is because only select people will accept the conviction of the Holy Spirit, thereby getting the predestined call from God.

Thus, within Scripture, one finds that God predestines events (Acts 4:27-28, Romans 8:30, etc.) but still allows free will choice (1 Chronicles 29:9, Psalm 54:6, Exodus 10:27, Exodus 35:5, Dueteronomy 1:26, Judges 5:9, 2 Samuel 6:10, etc.). Thus, free will choice and predestination work in harmony within Scripture.


Truth101 wrote:God says no one is seeking him.

You are quoting Romans 3:12 out of context.

In Romans 3:12, Paul is quoting Psalm 14:1-3, which is speaking about the fool that denies that God exists (Psalm 14:1). Paul is speaking in hyperbole, otherwise he is quoting Psalm 14:1-3 out of context.

Truth101 wrote:For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to

come, 39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rom 8:28-29 Oh…..all these except my “freewill”. Sorry had to throw that in.


Here you erect a strawman and knock it down. I actually agree with what you are saying in the sense that once one is saved, even the exercise of free will decisions cannot undo being saved. Of course, I say this from the perspective of Eternal Security or OSAS (Once Saved, Always Saved), not from the perspective of Universal Salvation.

Truth101 wrote:No you don’t none of us have a choice one way or the other and the parables Jesus spoke in are proof of that.

Prove it. So far all you have offered is Scriptural misquotes and commentary inserted into Scripture as proof.

[CoreIssue]

It looks as though I will have to start on the topic of "Is lucifer Satan?" to prove there is no scripture to use to say Satan fell from perfection. As for "freewill" you will not accept any scripture I have given to oppose this throne building idle of the heart. One day you will see the fallacy and heresy of this false belief but maybe just maybe you might see it when you see "lucifer" crumble before your eyes. Honestly I doubt you will though, you will find some way of defending your blasphemous teachings. You have continuously either twisted what I've said or you find fault with a plain text of scripture and resort to your bible which contains a translation of multiple translations that have been blatently indoctrinated with biased "eternal punishment" heresy. If one does not understand the difference between "relative" scripture and "absolute" scripture" they should have never made a decision to teach from the bible even on these forums. You might be wondering what im talking about. Actually I know you are wondering because you dont know. If you knew you would not be holding your false doctrines the way you do. I will attempt to reply to all these posts but I have to work long hours all week so I will be limited on my time.
I will like to say something right now concerning Gods words "And God saw all that he had made and said "it is GOOD"".
You say that nothing he created was evil. Well you miss interpret what was actually being said here. God said everything was GOOD, does that mean it was good and not evil? No it means that everything he created, the crooked serpent, evil, Adam and Eve with their weak flesh, The tree of knowledge of good and evil (why didnt he just create the tree of the knowledge of "good" why did he create a tree of the knowledge of good AND evil? Because we cannot have a knowledge of good without a knowledge of evil thats why. And how did Adam and Eve gain this knowledge of good? Through sinning and recieving the knowledge of good AND evil.). So God saw all that he had created and knew that it was perfect for his whole plan (including the evil) and said it was "good". Good for what he created it for. Stop decieving yourselves and twisting every scripture in your attempts to get God off the hook. He doesnt need you to get him off the hook, He created everything Good for its purpose. You say that God does not temp anyone. No he does not that is why the serpent was there. Coreissue
Said "God created man with the "freewill" to choose good or evil." So God gave them the ability to choose good or evil or right or wrong but he refuses to see that Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil UNTIL they sinned by disobeying God. There wasnt two different kinds of trees and two different kinds of friut to choose from. They couldnt choose the good fruit or the evil fruit because the knowledge of good and evil was contained in one tree in one fruit in the center of the garden with a decieving serpent in that tree. Before God created man he said "let us MAKE man in our image". God knows of good and evil, he wants sons and daughters in his image that have the knowledge of good and evil for how could they know God was even good without the knowledge of good and evil. You cant have one without the other. God wanted them to know his goodness but they could not know his goodness without knowing evil as well. The serpent is the one who tempts, thats his Job, he is the tempter. I have never said that God tempts any man. So stop twisting what I say. Here is a list of what God wants us to know. And the couterpart to knowing the good.
Good Bad


1) God sovereignty. Mans weakness.
2) Gods goodness Mans selfishness
3) Gods mercy Gods wrath
4) Gods kindness Gods dicipline
5) Gods blessings Mans lackings
6) Gods love Mans hate
7) Gods commitment Mans rebellion

Now relatively, It is bad to have to endure the negative side of all this but the absolute is they are needed in order to know the good but more importantly to know God intimately.

I will give a quote:

THE RELATIVE:
THE ABSOLUTE:
" ... seek, and ye shall find ... " (Mat. 7:7)
"Not one is seeking out God" (Rom. 3:11)
"God changed His mind" (Ex. 32:14)
"God is not a man Who changes His mind" (I Sam. 15:29)
" ... choose you this day whom ye will serve." (Josh. 24:15)
"Ye have not chosen me,
but I have chosen you ... " (Jn. 15:16)
" ... whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God ... " (I Jn. 3:10)
"All is of God" (II Cor. 5:18)
"Zechariah was just before God" (Lk. 1:5) (Comparing him to the corrupt priests)
"Not one is just" (Rom. 3:10)
(Comparing man with God)


One is the "relative" the other is the "absolute." One is from man's point of view, comparing men with men, the other is from God's point of view. One shows how a thing is perceived while the other shows how it actually is. One is for minors while the other is for the mature.
Both Scriptures are true. The relative is true and the absolute is true. They do not contradict. However, one really is "relative" while the other is "absolute."
Theologians are always taking Scriptures that speak of the relative, from man's point of view, and insist that these verses are absolute. By doing this they commit a double sin. Because then they insist that these relative truths actually nullify God's absolute declarations. They won't admit to this in their own words, but this is what they do when they retain the "relative" at the expense of rejecting the "absolute."
Ray Smith

Here we have the relative verses the absolute. Above I have shown the need for the evil in the world. The evil was created out of necessity.And God said all was GOOD (for what he purposed it for). God does not do the evil he created the serpent for this. I have shown that man is not free to choose God this is the relative. The absolute is God chooses us. So if man is not free to choose God than "freewill" to accept Christ without God's chosing us is out the window. If God did than create the serpent for this purpose than he will bring us (all creation) to his purposed plan of salvation as he chooses his children from the world (this age and the next). In the end God will have sons and daughters who know him intimately as well as know their weakness and shortcomings, for it was not possible for Adam and Eve to know all the greatness of God until they (and all that have lived) experienced all of the above. This was all mapped out in Gods plan. Believe it or not it will be fullfilled.
You have all proved that you only believe half of scripture and make a sad attempt to twist away the other half. The problem here is, you twist away the absolute in order to retain the relavent. "having a form of Godlyness but deny the power thereof".
Absolute: You believe God chooses you out of the world to be saved.
Relative: You believe you choose Christ.
Absolute: You believe that God is ALL sovereign.
Relative: You believe you have a power "freewill" which can supersede Gods sovereignty. Hence, you choose God not God chooses you.
Heres some more half scriptures you love.
You believe: "for as in Adam ALL die". 1Cor 15:22
You do not believe: "in Christ shall ALL be made alive". 1Cor 15:22
You believe: "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" Mathew 5:44
You do not believe: God will love his enemies and bless them that curse him and do good to them that hate him. Part of a Father teaching his young is being a good example. God tells us to do something he does not do?
You believe: Jesus came to save the lost.
You do not believe: He will save them all.
You believe: "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." Col 1:16-17
You do not believe: The principalities and powers of the darkness of this world and of high places are included in this. Jesus is before ALL these things and created them ALL. Most of all "by him ALL things CONSIST".
You believe: "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." Isa 55:11
You do not believe: The Word (Jesus) accomplished (completed) all that God pleased. Jesus prospered in saving the whole world.
When will you start believing all the scriptures? The first half, the second half, the middle and ultimately the END. Stop twisting and rearanging to suit your doctrine and start believing God. God does not fail, he did not make a mistake, his word does fullfill what he was sent to fullfill. You make a mockery out of the cross. Jesus death payed the whole debt.
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men the man Christ Jesus; Who gave Himself a ransom for all to be testified in due time." (I Tim. 2:5-6)

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the savior of all men [mankind], specially [not exclusively] to those that believe. These things command and teach." (I Tim. 4:10-11)
"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." (Isa. 53:6)
" ... according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will ... " (Eph. 1:11)
&q