1 Timothy 4:10 by Truth101

[CoreIssue]

Note: The first 6 posts here are reposts from the old board by CoreIssue.

Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 9:06 pm by Truth101


THESE POSTS WERE SPLIT FROM ANOTHER TOPIC BECAUSE THEY WERE OFF TOPIC AND HIJACKING THE CONVERSATION.

THE ISSUE CENTERS AROUND UNIVERSAL SALVATION

My question to all has not been answered but avoided.
1 Tim 4:10.
Can someone explain this to me?
I would like to here all the wisdom out there on this.
I honestly dont believe there is a way of explaining this away.
I have tried to understand this and many other scriptures regarding God saving "ALL" while I was a Christian and I could never for the life of me get an answer from anyone in the church.
The scripture as well as others plainly states "who IS the saviour of the ALL men.
meaning ALL mankind.
As well it states but SPECIALLY to those that believe.
So Jesus is the saviour of ALL men AND...AND...SPECIALLY those that believe.
Honestly no one can give a reason for this verse and im sure I will get many answers that only beat around the bush as I have already recieved.
This is my ONE question to all.
It has most definatley not been answered.
This one verse falls in harmony with all the other versus pointing to universal salvation which in turn contradict all eternal damnation doctrine. Only one can be true.
Truth is absolute.
Please answer
Waiting on your reply.

[CoreIssue]

OK. let us give it a run.

First, remember no verse stands alone.

By rules of grammar each word has a meaning or meanings. The context of the sentence reduces the number of meanings that can apply and the context of the passage further reduces the applicable ones. Then other passages on the same subject further refine down the possible meanings.

Most of the time this leaves us with only one possible meaning.

1 Timothy is written to Timothy per 1 Tim 1. That sets context.

It goes on to establish Timothy is being contacted about staying firm in preaching against false doctrine and staying firm in sound doctrine to accomplish his purpose in life for God. That expands the context.

Note as regards this issue this passage:
Quote:1 Timothy 1
15Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 16But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.
Christ came to save sinners. Paul was an example so that to show God's mercy to those who would believe.

It does not say all but to those who would believe, which is not all.

Paul continues in instruction to Timothy.

1 Timothy 4 opens with this warning:
Quote: 1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

Then we hit verse 10:
Quote: 9This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance 10(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.
It contains the phrases you are struggling with. So let us examine the meanings remembering we have already seen a verse speaking of those who would believe versus all will believe.

Savior of all Man does not mean all Man will be saved. It means he IS the savior of all but those who will not be saved cannot be saved. Available versus accepted. Gift offered versus gift accepted.

So we, referring to Paul and Timothy or saints in general, put our hope in Christ. It does not say all of Man puts their hope in Christ for many not only do not but scoff at Christ.

So WE put our hope in Christ who has paid the price to save the whole world.

Remember the other verse posted says God desires/wants none to perish. If none would not perish then it would not use the Greek for desires/wants but it would say he gave his son and none would perish regardless of how they felt.

And the Apostles tell us the salvation comes via repentence in faith by grace. No repentence no salvation.

Now that word specially. As posted more fully before it means:
Quote:especially, chiefly, most of all, above all
It says God is especially/chiefly/most of all/above all where the hope of the saints is placed.

God as Savior is an added statement about God. It is not saying God is where the hope of salvation of all Man is placed or that God will save.

Many look to God for eternity in Heaven without feeling or seeing any need for repentence. Many pray to God but scoff at the cross.

Further, many deny God's existence but that makes him no less their only hope for salvation via the blood of Christ.

It is grammatically wrong to read this that God will save all Man, all Man looks to the true God in hope or that even all look to God at all.

It simply states the simple fact Man has no other hope than God and of those who look to God his saints are the one who look the hardest and truest to him.

This is in complete harmony with God calling all and providing a way for all to be saved but in the exercise of freewill not all are saved and some do spend eternity in the Lake.

[CoreIssue]

Ok everything I have just heard is just another carnal mind struggling as usaul to understand one simple sentence. As most poeple do not have a masters degree in english and grammar I guess they would too lose there soul in this fabled "eternal" place of torment. You have attempted (though cleverly) to disguise the true meaning of this verse. Most might be fooled by this aproach but im sorry you have just contradicted yourself and the scripture in question. I am absolutley baffled at how common this scripture twisting theology is used. You are right, the context is clearly talking about not being decieved by false doctrine and goes on to tell us how Christ is the saviour of ALL men and you still somehow try to eliminate the "specially" by breaking it down into the true meanings of the word and think that you accomplished to do away with this verses claim that Jesus is the saviour of ALL men and the "specially" those that believe part. Unless you can give me some meat to chew on I will continue to believe the scriptures. Now as for this eternal hell doctrine I am going to put it to rest right now. you can accept it or reject it. The reason is, is if this deception is not broken which is the foundation for this false doctrine we can debate in circles till the cows come home and frankly you or I really shouldnt be waisting our time debating squares and circles as God will be the final judge over all.

I am going to show all evidence for "evermore, everlasting and eternal" not being the proper translation. I am going to post it in the next post which I will now write and post. I just want to be sure I have enough room as I dont know how much one can write in each post.
BRB

[CoreIssue]

Is "EVERLASTING" Scriptural?

INTRODUCTION:
A dictionary or lexicon is not the most authoritative place to find the true definition of a word. Especially if the word in question makes or breaks a particular controversial doctrine, such as, is punishment of the wicked for a period of time that ends, or for eternity.
In many Bibles the Greek word: "aion" is translated as "forever," and "aionios" is translated, "everlasting," or "eternal."
Strong's Greek Dictionary defines "aion" as follows: "an age, perpetuity, the world, a Messianic period, course, eternal, forever, evermore, without end." Strong's defines the adjective aionios as follows: "perpetual, eternal, forever, everlasting."

Are these definitions good scholarship or religious bias? Imagine defining the word "white" like this: "white, WHITE LIGHT, bright, maximum lightness, brilliant, blanch, off-white, shaded, light gray, dark gray, between light and dark, dark gray, dark, COAL BLACK." Does anyone see a problem with my definition of "white?" Does anyone see a problem with Strong's definition of "aion/aionios?"

Sounds like religious bias to me. Imagine if Nasa used this same method for interpreting complex equations for building and sending up a shuttle into space. There would be chaos yet When we are talking about the human soul we will do and say anything to voice our opinions instead of seeking for the truth.

My boss is Greek and I asked him one day, "can you tell me what the words aion and aionios mean in english?"
His reply was "I believe it means century or millenium".
With no doubt he gave me two possible meanings of these two words but no mention of "forever or eternity". Even in todays Greek they do not mean forever but a duration of time.
Here is a list of Greek scholars who have studied exhaustively to find the true meaning of aionious. without a biased mind.
The New Testament in Modern Speech, by Dr. R. F. Weymouth: Eternal: Greek: "aeonion," i.e., "of the ages." Etymologically this adjective, like others similarly formed, does not signify "during," but "belong to" the aeons or ages."
The Interpreter’s Dictionry of the Bible (vol. IV, p. 643): Time: The O.T. and the N.T. are not acquainted with the conception of eternity as timelessness. The O.T. has not developed a special term for "eternity." The word aion originally meant "vital force," "life," then "age," "lifetime."
Elliot’s Commentary on the Whole Bible (Matt. 25:46(. Everlasting punishment--life eternal. The two adjectives represent the same Greek word, aionios—it must be admitted that the Greek word which is rendered "eternal" does not, in itself, involve endlessness, but rather, duration, whether through an age or succession of ages, and that it is therefore applied in the N.T. to periods of time that have had both a beginning and ending (Rom. 16:25).
Hasting’s Dictionary of the New Testament (Vol. I, p. 542, art. Christ and the Gospels): Eternity. There is no word either in the O.T. Hebrew or the N.T. Greek to express the abstract idea of eternity. (Vol. III, p. 369): Eternal, everlasting—nonetheless "eternal" is misleading, inasmuch as it has come in the English to connote the idea of "endlessly existing," and thus to be practically a synonym for "everlasting." But this is not an adequate rendering of aionios which varies in meaning with the variations of the noun aion from which it comes. (p. 370):
The chronoios aioniois moreover, are not to be thought of as stretching backward everlastingly, as it is proved by the pro chronon aionion of II Tim. 1:9; Titus. 1:2. (Note: pro chronon aionion means "BEFORE times eonian." Since this Scripture tells us that there was time "before" eonian, eionian cannot possibly mean eternal, for nothing can be "before" eternity.)
The large Catholic Bible dictionary, The Encyclopedic Dictionary of the Bible (p. 693): ETERNITY: The Bible hardly speaks of eternity in the philosophical sense of infinite duration without beginning or end. The Hebrew word olam, which is used alone (Ps. 61:8; etc.) or with various prepositions (Gen. 3:22; etc.) in contexts where it is traditionally translated as ‘forever,’ means in itself no more than ‘for an indefinitely long period." Thus me olam does not mean ‘from eternity’ but ‘of old’ Gen. 6:4; etc.). In the N.T. aion is used as the equivalent of olam. (Note: even the Catholic translators of The Jerusalem Bible and The New American Bible have failed to heed the scholarship of their own Catholic authorities.)
Dr. R. F. Weymouth, a translator who was adept in Greek, states in The New Testament in Modern Speech (p. 657), Eternal, Greek aeonion, i.e., of the ages: Etymologically this adjective, like others similarly formed does not signify, "during" but "belonging to" the aeons or ages.
Dr. Marvin Vincent, Word Studies of the New Testament (Vol. IV, p. 59). The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective in themselves carries the sense of "endless" or "everlasting.’ Anionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time.
Dr. F. W. Farrar, author of The Life of Christ and The Life and Word of St. Paul, as well as books about Greek grammar and syntax, writes in The Eternal Hope (p. 198), "That the adjective is applied to some things which are ‘endless’ does not, of course, for one moment prove that the word itself meant ‘endless;’ and to introduce this rendering into many passages would be utterly impossible and absurd."
And so I will repeat this most important truth of translating:
"That the adjective is applied to some things which are ‘endless’ [as with ‘God’ in Rom. 16:26] does NOT, of course, for one moment prove that the word itself meant ‘endless;’ and to introduce this rendering into MANY PASSAGES [some of which we will look at later] WOULD BE UTTERLY IMPOSSIBLE AND ABSURD." (CAPS are mine).
In Dr. Farrar’s book, Mercy and Judgment, (p. 378), "Since aion meant ‘age,’ aionios means, properly, ‘belonging to an age,’ or ‘age-long,’ and anyone who asserts that it must mean ‘endless’ defends a position which even Augustine practically abandoned twelve centuries ago. Even if aion always meant ‘eternity,’ which is not the case in classic or Hellenistic Greek—aionios could still mean only ‘belonging to eternity’ and not ‘lasting through it."
The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible, (Vol. 4, p. 641), "The O.T. and the N.T. are not acquainted with the concept of eternity as timelessness." Page 655: "The O.T. has not developed a special term for eternity." Page 645: "The use of the word aion in the N.T. is determined very much by the O.T. and the LXX. Aion means long, distant, uninterrupted time. The intensifying plural occurs frequently in the N.T. but it adds no new meaning."
Dr. Edward Plumptre, an eschatologist, "I fail to find, as is used by the Greek Fathers, any instance in which the idea of time duration is unlimited."
Time and Eternity by G. T. Stevenson, (p. 63), "Since, as we have seen, the noun aion refers to a period of time it appears, very improbable that the derived adjective aionios would indicate infinite duration, nor have we found any evidence in Greek writing to show that such a concept was expressed by this term."
Professor Herman Oldhausen, German Lutheran theologian, "The Bible has no expression for endlessness. All the Biblical terms imply or denote long periods."
Professor Knappe of Halle wrote, "The Hebrew was destitute of any single word to express endless duration. The pure idea of eternity is NOT FOUND IN ANY OF THE ANCIENT LANGUAGES." (CAPS emphasis are mine).
An Alphabetical Analysis by Charles H. Welch (Editor of The Berean Expositor and a man well versed in Greek), (Vol. 1, p. 279), "Eternity is not a Biblical theme." (Vol. 1, p. 52), "What we have to learn is that the Bible does not speak of eternity. It is not written to tell us of eternity. Such a consideration is entirely outside the scope of revelation."
Consider the definition of the words "aion and aionious" In the first paragraph in light of all this evidence. Was it good scholarship to translate the bible with contradictory definitions as ranging from "an age to eternity"?
Does the definition of white range from "white to coal black"?
You decided to use grammar and context (deceitfully) to prove your opinion so I have given you a mountain of proof for this erronious use of the scriptures.
Yet I have so much more but as I have said before I do not know how much I may put in one post so I will have to make another post but first I would like to here from any on this.
My intention is not to push my beliefs on anyone but to offer truth to those who have an ear to hear (spiritually).
Jesus said "my sheep hear my voice". Those with spiritual ears to hear. Those who have recieved the spirit of truth.
Hence my intent hear is to just preach the good news that Jesus is the saviour of ALL men, SPECIALLY (not exclusively) of those that believe. And whom the Lord has given ears to hear will hear this and recieve the truth with a glad heart. I do not wish to debate in circles. I will go where the spirit leads and sometimes God tells me to shake the dust from my boots and he leads me elsewhere. I believe I was led to this forum for whatever reason (God knows).
I will, when time permits tackle this free will heresy. But not right now. for the time being God is prompting me to stick to this subject of "eternity". And I will see where he leads me next.
I am sure some are just itching to voice their opinions on this as well im sure there are some who are having the scales lifted from their eyes and they are the reason God has me here.
Until next time God bless all ears that read and come to the knowledge of the truth that Jesus is truly the saviour of ALL men.

[CoreIssue]

I answered your above post on another topic.

Please keep this topic purely on 1 Timothy 4:10.

Constantly jumping to the argument of eternity is not dealing with this verse correctly. Deal with the grammar of this verse and establish what it says in and of itself before trying to bring in other information.

[CoreIssue]

Core issue i don't think it could have been explained any better than you just did. Jesus spent more time talking about hell then he did about salvation. Jesus died to save "all men" the unfortunate thing is that many people deny him even so called believers. If there wasn't a penalty sin over our heads there would have been no need for Jesus to have come in the first place. The bad thing is after Jesus voluteered to go threw the suffering many are going to still choice to chase after their lust to go to a place that was originally designed for Satan and his angels and not for us, you are an uninvited guest in hell. Its like the utimate smack in the face to the lord to not choose his free give of salvation. I found that people who deny hell,and the lake of fire { to different places} are the ones who are in danger of it.