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CoreIssue
02-18-2006, 02:06 PM
Note: The first 3 posts here are reposts from the old board by CoreIssue.

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 11:59 am by Chrystalwuzhere

Here is an article by one L. Ray Smith declaring through his own divine revelation that Hell does not exist. Let's take a look at it. Warning: This article is long.

The Lake of Fire



Installment XVI—Part A
"HELL"
[Hebrew: sheol translated—"pit" and "grave"]




The word “hell” is found in most modern language Bibles. This was not always so. There are numerous translations, which do not contain the word “hell” even once. Why is this? Furthermore, new translations are dropping the word hell from their versions. Do you know why this is happening?
The teaching, that when wicked people die they go to a place of eternal torture in fire is a pagan/heathen belief and doctrine. This teaching far antedates the Christian era, and the Old Testament knows nothing of a place of eternal torture in fire upon death.And so it is impossible to believe that the ancient pagans borrowed the concept of an “eternal hell of punishment by fire” from the Christian Bible? Is that where the pagans and heathens learned of this supposed fate of the wicked? Or rather, did some Christian translators borrow this damnable doctrine from the pagans, and attempt to make it sound Biblical?
It is astonishing how much of Christian theology is pagan in origin. Job was inspired by God’s Spirit to write, “Shall MORTAL man be more just than God?” Job 4:17). It is dead people who are raised in the resurrection, not cadavers which once belonged to living people (I Cor. 15:51-54). Did the Old Testament patriarchs believe in the “immortality of the soul?” No. Did Paul believe in the “immortality of the soul?” No.
Did the pagan Egyptians believe in the “immortality of the soul?” Dah! Have you ever heard of the pyramids? The pyramids were the supposed launching pads for the Pharaohs’ IMMORTAL souls to be transported into the heavens! First Century Christians never believed their souls went into the starry firmament of heaven at death—it was the PAGANS AND HEATHENS that believed in such mythological nonsense. God brought Israel out of Egypt, but it doesn’t look like the paganism of Egypt ever came out of Israel.
ARE THE DEAD, DEAD?
How is it possible to teach Christian indoctrinated people the Truths of God? Well, of course, without the spirit of God it is completely impossible for them to understand. When people cannot even wrap their minds around the truth that “dead people are really DEAD,” there is little one can do to help them. Dead people do not “GO” anywhere. Good dead people do not go to heaven to float on clouds and walk streets of gold, and bad dead people do not go to a place called hell to be tortured in fire for all eternity. Dead people are dead and will remain dead until the “Resurrection from the DEAD,” and that resurrection is yet FUTURE.


Just one Scripture from God Himself, and we will move on. When people die, are they dead?“Now after the DEATH of Moses the servant of the Lord, it came to pass, that the Lord spoke unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses’ minister, saying, MOSES MY SERVANT IS DEAD…” (Joshua 1:1-2).


When Moses died, God Himself said that Moses was dead. God didn’t say that Moses’ “body” died, but that Moses was still alive with the Lord, at His side. NO. The Lord said, “Moses My servant is DEAD.” When the dog “Rover” died; he died ALL OVER. And when Moses died; he too, died ALL OVER. Physically alive people can be spiritually dead, but physically dead people can not be spiritually alive!
When I tell people that when we die, we’re DEAD, they call me a heretic. When I talk to theologians about the “resurrection of the DEAD,” they don’t know what I’m talking about. The “Resurrection of the DEAD” has absolutely no place in Christian theology. Amazing… absolutely amazing. The entire 15th chapter of I Corinthians deals with the resurrection of the dead!
Paul tells us that if there is no resurrection of the dead, then our faith is vain and we don’t have a Saviour. Yet the Church teaches by her heathen doctrines that the resurrection of the dead is less than USELESS when it comes to living forever in a place they call heaven. They tell us that all believers go to heaven (ALIVE) at DEATH, and this “resurrection of the DEAD” stuff that Paul talked about is totally unnecessary for eternal life in heaven. Well, what can I say—they lie.
And there are hundreds and hundreds of Scriptures which speak of “judgment,” yet the Church teaches that people by the BILLIONS are sent to an eternal hell of fire and are not even judged before they go there. Another Scriptural doctrine (judgment) bites the dust of Christian heresy.
Who ever heard of sentencing something to life in prison without even being judged guilty of anything? But, according to Christendom, it happens thousands of times a day all over the world, and the sentence isn’t for a short number of years, but for all eternity.
Whenever we refuse to BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURES we become hopelessly lost in a maze of theological confusion that has no end.
Is there a Scripture that states that man is “immortal” or has an “immortal soul” as the Egyptians taught and believed. No. Does Christendom believe that man has an “immortal soul?” Yes, absolutely.
Is there a Scripture that states when a man dies, he is DEAD? Yes. Does Christendom believe that when a man dies, he is DEAD? No, of course not.
Is there a Scripture that states when a man dies, he is still alive? No. Do Christians believe when we die we are still alive, albeit it a different geographical location (heaven or hell)? Yes, of course.
Are the fundamental doctrines of Christendom based on the Scriptures? I’ll not ask any more foolish questions—read the rest of this Series!

HELL IS A WORD AND A DOCTRINE

CoreIssue
02-18-2006, 02:09 PM
Well, that was quite a rambling full of false logic, statements and so-called proofs.

Of course, the biggie is that God has to reveal the Truth to you or you cannot get it.

Rather than go point by point I would rather simply point out some of what the Bible says about Hell (or whichever term you prefer referring to the same place).

Quote: Psalm 68:18
18 When you ascended on high,
you led captives in your train;
you received gifts from men,
even from [e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%2068;&version=31;#fen-NIV-14919e)] the rebellious—
that you, [f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%2068;&version=31;#fen-NIV-14919f)] O LORD God, might dwell there.


Quote: Ephesians 4:7-9
7But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8This is why it[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&verse=7&end_verse=9&version=31&context=context#fen-NIV-29265a)] says:
"When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men." 9(What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&verse=7&end_verse=9&version=31&context=context#fen-NIV-29266c)]?


Clearly at Christ's resurrection he led the spirits of the OT saints to Heaven with him. Not bodies since the First Resurrection is still future.
Quote:
1 Peter 3:18-20
18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=67&chapter=3&verse=18&end_verse=20&version=31&context=context#fen-NIV-30428a)] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison...




How could Christ preach to anyone if soul sleep were true?
Quote: Revelation 20
10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


Quote:If the English word “helan/helle/hell” had retained its Middle English/Anglo Saxon meaning, of to “hide,” “cover,” and “conceal,” it might still be an acceptable (albeit it not the best) translation of “sheol/hades.” But as this word has long since taken on the meaning of the pagan teachings concerning the realm of the dead and the supposed evils contained therein, it is absolutely out of place as a translation of any Hebrew or Greek word found in the manuscripts.
Quote: [B]Strong's Number: 86 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/browse.cgi?number=86&version=kjv)Original WordWord Origina/&dhßfrom (1 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1&version=kjv)) (as negative particle) and (1492 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1492&version=kjv))Transliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=86&version=kjv#Legend) EntryHades1:146,22Phonetic SpellingParts of Speechhah'-dace http://bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=0086g) Noun Location Definition

name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions
Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead
later use of this word: the grave, death, hellKing James Word Usage - Total: 11hell 10, grave 1 KJV Verse Count Matthew (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=mt&number=86&count=2&version=kjv)2Luke (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=lu&number=86&count=2&version=kjv)2Acts (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=ac&number=86&count=2&version=kjv)21 Corinthians (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=1co&number=86&count=1&version=kjv)1Revelation (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=re&number=86&count=4&version=kjv)4Total11
It does not say grave. It says Hades.

Hades always meant the dwelling place of the dead in the Greek. A place where all were awake, active and under the rule of a God.

If John had meant grave he would have said grave, not Hades.

There is more but I believe the point is made. Hell is a real place where fallen spirits go.

CoreIssue
02-18-2006, 09:57 PM
How could Christ preach to anyone if soul sleep were true?

Ya know what... that statement right there blows the whole logic of soul sleep right out the window. Excellent insight, Core. I had never thought of that before.
Adding another point to my arsenal.

REBHEO
03-12-2007, 09:47 PM
Christ was preaching to the fallen angels {demons}. Not to dead humans who are asleep .

CoreIssue
03-12-2007, 10:02 PM
Christ was preaching to the fallen angels {demons}. Not to dead humans who are asleep .
Really?

Where did you get that from?

And who then went in train with Christ at his resurrection to Heaven?

And who was in Paradise in the Pit?

And if asleep, how could the rich man in Hell speak to Abraham and Lazarus?

REBHEO
03-12-2007, 11:46 PM
Really where did I get that from?
1 Peter 3:19 Christ preached to the spirits {fallen angels} in prison.

REBHEO
03-12-2007, 11:52 PM
Do you people believe God HE told Adam he would die and return to dust.HE did not tell Adam he would go to heaven or hell.

Jessie
03-13-2007, 05:39 AM
Ya know what... that statement right there blows the whole logic of soul sleep right out the window. Excellent insight, Core. I had never thought of that before.
Adding another point to my arsenal.

:nod:

CoreIssue
03-13-2007, 08:05 PM
Really where did I get that from?
1 Peter 3:19 Christ preached to the spirits {fallen angels} in prison.
Where does it say fallen angels?

The context is speaking to humans. There is no relevance to angels in that passage.

And absolutely no relevance in the fact that it was pointless, since fallen angels were doomed before Adam was even created, with no chance of redemption.

You are assuming without justification.

CoreIssue
03-13-2007, 08:08 PM
Do you people believe God HE told Adam he would die and return to dust.HE did not tell Adam he would go to heaven or hell.
Yea, I get your non-Trinitarian jab.

Yep. Human flesh returns to dust from which it is made. But human spirits didn't come from dust, but from God.

I see you didn't respond to my other points, which you cannot get around.

REBHEO
03-13-2007, 09:05 PM
I will use your logic on you . You say the train that Jesus led to heaven were the OT saints. WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT ?

CoreIssue
03-13-2007, 09:30 PM
I will use your logic on you . You say the train that Jesus led to heaven were the OT saints. WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT ?
Who else could they be? Use some sense here.

Jude tells us the angels that rebelled are held in chains in the Pit until Judgement Day.

They have no hope of salvation.

And you still avoid the Rich Man, Lazarus and Abraham. No way to get around them being human.

soweroftruth
12-14-2007, 12:11 AM
Do you people believe God HE told Adam he would die and return to dust.HE did not tell Adam he would go to heaven or hell.
no god was telling him he would die in the spirit sence becaue adam did not die after he ate of the fruit of that tree , thats what jesus came to restore ! the life giving spirit are god gave us in the beginning that he said he would take away "and man became a physical spirit. (living soul)would be the best way to translate that part of scripture we lost our perfect state of being at the fall of adam thus the holy god could not remane in our presence or we would be con summed so he gave us a time limit before he split the seam and corisponded to us through men he hand pick until HE finished the wofk he started through jesus his title as saviour when we recieve the grace of salvation we are reborn and that means our spirits are made alive in christ and who ever dose not want this can have what THEY choose death apart from He who offers life :yowza: