A logical proof that Mormonism is False

[CoreIssue]

Note: The first 20 posts here are reposts from the old board by CoreIssue.

Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 6:18 pm by CTZonEdit

Quote:Mormonism teaches that God used to be a man on another world and that he became a god (this is called exaltation) and came to this world with his goddess wife. He was able to become a god because he followed the laws and ordinances of the god he served on another world. That god in turn was exalted by his god, who was exalted by his god, ad infinitum. In other words, there is a progression of gods being formed as far back as you look in time.
Truth does not contradict itself. If I gave two statements about a subject and the two statements contradicted each other, then you would know something was wrong. The law of non contradiction states that something cannot be both true and false in the same sense at the same time. In other words, truth does not contradict itself. This is basic logic. That which is true is internally consistent and contains no logical impossibilities. If something does contain a logical impossibility, then it cannot be true.
Mormonism teaches an infinite regression of causes. This means that it teaches that each god was made a god by a previous god. This means that as far back as you look in time, this process has always been occurring. This means that from an infinity of time in the past, the Mormon plan of exaltation (become gods) has been in effect. The only problem is that this is logically impossible. Since it is logically impossible, this means that Mormonism is false. Let's look closer.
There cannot be an infinite regression of causes. It is logically impossible. Why?

Link here and find out. (http://www.carm.org/lds/infinity.htm)

[CoreIssue]

CTZonEdit wrote:Truth does not contradict itself.


I have seen two fatal flaws in LDS teachings discussed on the Internet:


The LDS claims of grand civilizations in Central American cannot be confirmed by Archeology.
LDS claims that the Native Indian population of Central America are descended from the Jews. DNA findings has demolished that claim.

. . . looking more and more like man-made religion.

[CoreIssue]

Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 3:50 am by Saved 1981

SID SAID:

Quote:. . . looking more and more like man-made religion


Amen, Brother. And I think that was made
even more clear and plain in these statements.....


Mormonism teaches that God used to be a man on another world
and that he became a god (this is called exaltation) and came to this world with his goddess wife.
He was able to become a god because he followed the laws and ordinances of the god
he served on another world. That god in turn was exalted by his god, who was exalted by his god,
ad infinitum. In other words, there is a progression of gods being formed as far back
as you look in time.

[CoreIssue]

It is more complicated than that.

The gods and wives stuff is only taught ot the Temple Mormons. And that is secret knowledge they do not share or admit to.

[CoreIssue]

Core, Brother, i just wanna get the heck out of this
world so bad!! I mean, that is some of the freakiest junk I have ever
had the misfortune of reading about any religion since first getting
into Bible Prophecy back in 1994!


And to think, I was actually considering joining their cult in 2002!


Of course, I wasn't aware of their outlandish beliefs @ the time.

[CoreIssue]

Actually there are even stranger. As in Christian Science, Rosecruician and Meta Physical.

But all of them put their members in the same place ultimately.

We are outnumbered for sure!

[CoreIssue]

Quote:We are outnumbered for sure!


Sure, we're outnumbered. Unless of course
you count the number of POWERFUL ANGELS that our Holy Lord
has at His and our disposal!!


I wonder how many of these ppl think that they are the wiser
simply because they are so great in number!

Too bad for them that they must have passed right over the
Scripture where YESHUA Explained that ....


.. Straight and narrow is the Gait which leads to
Heaven, and few there be who find it!


Emphasis on "FEW" So, they can all kiss off!

[CoreIssue]

hey Crystal we need a smilie that is a bunch of smilies
jumping of the cliff together.

cause thats what most of the world is doing,
herd mentality.....

I just don't get the "I'm a god thing"
they cant make themselves well, change their hair color, ect.
by themselves but they are gods

nothing different than what the roman ceasers did.....

[CoreIssue]

Truth does not contradict itself.
I have seen two fatal flaws in LDS teachings discussed on the Internet:


The LDS claims of grand civilizations in Central American cannot be
confirmed by Archeology.

You're kidding, right? You aren't aware of grand civilizations such as Aztec,
Maya, Toltec, and Inca? Believe it or not, lots of Archaeologists are
aware of quite significant civilizations throughout the

[CoreIssue]

CoreIssue wrote:It is more complicated than that. The gods and wives
stuff is only taught ot the Temple Mormons. And that is secret
knowledge they do not share or admit to.

Where do you come up with this stuff? The gods and wives stuff is
found outside the temple. It's found in the Doctrine and Covenants -
widely published and available on the web. Just check out section 132,
verses 19 and 20.

"And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word,
which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is
sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed,
unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood;
and it shall be said unto them--Ye shall come forth in the first
resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next
resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and
powers, dominions, all heights and depths--then shall it be written in
the Lamb's Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed
innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder
whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all
things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through
all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the
world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set
there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed
upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of
the seeds forever and ever.
Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to
everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all,
because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them."

Alma

[CoreIssue]

the incas, aztecs ect have plenty of archeology to support their
existence. where is the proof for that in mormonism and its claims?

and we will be servents of the most high God. not gods ourselves.

[CoreIssue]

Jessie wrote:the incas, aztecs ect have plenty of archeology to support their existence. where is the proof for that in mormonism and its claims? and we will be servents of the most high God. not gods ourselves.

Who is to say that the Incas, or Toltecs weren't those civilizations of Central America?

To put it another way, where is the proof for the resurrection? The miracles of Jesus? The fact that archaeologists can demonstrate that Jerusalem is a place on the map is a long way from demonstrating that Jesus rose from the dead. That, my dear, is a matter of faith rather than proof.

Alma

[CoreIssue]

<DIV>Quote:<DIV>[QUOTE]You're kidding, right? You aren't aware of grand civilizations such as Aztec,
Maya, Toltec, and Inca? Believe it or not, lots of Archaeologists are
aware of quite significant civilizations throughout the

[CoreIssue]

Still playing the semantical games I see!

Your reply reminds me of why I didn’t continue to post on your previous board. It seems to me that you have no idea what “semantics” means, and have decided to throw that phrase out when you don’t know what to say. If I have played some kind of game with the meaning of words above, demonstrate it. Otherwise, I am responding to precisely what the poster has stated and that isn’t “playing games” it’s operating on the assumption that the author of a message actually meant to say what is included in her message.
There are no proofs for the claimed Book of Mormon civilizations in South America. And you know that.
Of course I know that. That’s why I consistently equate demands for proof with the fact that there is no proof of the resurrection.

On RR you spent 3 full topics claiming you were going to present factual hard evidence for these claims and never did.

That is just plain false on both accounts. If I promised to provide something, I did. I reject that I made any such promise as you indicate above. Of course, you could prove me wrong by posting the message as it appears today on RR. I’ll tell you what the chance is of that: zero.

It is not an idea it demolishes it. It is scientific fact.They can trace Indian ancestory back through to Asia and yet you claim it absurb they cannot test for Semitic ancestory.Crack the science books! Catch up to date!

Look at what I wrote, CoreIssue. The fact that Indian ancestry can be traced back to Asia doesn’t in the least affect the claims of the Book of Mormon. It would if the Book of Mormon claimed that all American Indians were solely Jews from Jerusalem, but it never makes such a claim. What, exactly, does the fact of Asian ancestry have to do with anything related to the Book of Mormon?
This is hysterical. In the 70s Mormons swore becoming gods was nonsense (even my Mormon friends denied it).

Hogwash. I cited to you two passages from the Doctrine and Covenants stating the fact that we believe we can become gods. That passage has been published to the world since 1852 – first in the LDS newspaper “Deseret Evening News” and subsequently in every edition of the D&C since that time. It was the subject of US Senate hearings in 1902 and published throughout the last century – including the 70’s. You claim it was denied by Mormons you know, and I say it has been part of our published canon of scripture for more than 150 years. Do you really think your position can hold any water?

As was polygamy in eternity and so on. Ex Temple Mormons were ridiculed for declaring this the teachings. Now, oh, we have never denied it! We just deny the polygamy! Tell me. Does the LDS still deny Smith was a polygamist? That the early Mormon Church practiced polygamy? Your guys declarations keep changing.

Good assertions, why not try backing them up?
Who is to say that the Incas, or Toltecs weren't those civilizations of Central America?
And of course the demanded negative proof demand. It is up to you to prove they were. Not anyone else to prove they were not.

Not really, CoreIssue. You see, we don’t believe in proving spiritual things. I don’t believe they belong in realm of proof. That’s why, when Jessica (?) asked for proof I pointed out that there is no proof for the resurrection. My reply has always been that there is no proof. When there is proof for the resurrection, then I think it would be reasonable to ask for proof of Mormonism.

Quote:You sound like the Islamics now.There is manuscript proof of miracles and the resurrection.

Oh boy. Apparently, you’re also unaware of what “proof” means. Copies of original manuscripts claiming that Jesus rose from the dead hardly constitute proof. Any more than the existence of manuscripts of magical spells is proof that magic works. You’re confusing the idea of witnesses with the idea of proof. They aren’t one and the same.

Quote:In fact the evidence proves the Mormon claims are false. Such as the BoM having steel and clear glass in a culture that never got out of the Bronze Age or had glass windows at all.

Good! Now show me a passage from the Book of Mormon that claims that anyone in America had glass windows. That’s the first step of demonstrating you really have something substantial to say. Once you demonstrate such a fact, you’re in a good position to say, “This proves Mormonism false.” The problem, CoreIssue, is that you jump over the first element of an argument to the end where you declare victory. Why do you insist on dispensing with demonstrating any of your claims?

Quote:As I have said many times to you over the years. Stop making negative and other proof claims and lay out your evidence if you have it. Show us the museums with the artifacts from this mythological civilization you keep pointing to.

You seem to live in a mythical land, CoreIssue. You keep asking me for proof of the Book of Mormon, and I keep claiming that I don’t believe there is any proof or that there will be. I have yet to ever point to the civilization of the Book of Mormon to anyone, so how can you say I keep pointing to it?

Quote:You cannot so you just keep throwing faith statements.

Why not? What kind of proof do you have of the New Testament. Don’t get me wrong. I believe that the Bible is the word of God; but I don’t believe there is any proof for that belief. For me, it is a matter of faith. Unless I have missed something really big, I’m not aware of any more proof for Christianity than exists for Islam or Hare Krishna. What’s wrong with statements of faith? I don’t recall any Bible passages indicating that faith comes from proof. Do you?

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”

Alma

[CoreIssue]

My reply has always been that there is no proof. When there is proof for the resurrection,

I don`t want to interfer with your debate but Jesus said He would send a comfortor after He left, third part of the Trinity.
Point being that if one accepts the resurection as fact then the Holy Spirit will enter you and you become a new person.
The living fact of that occurance is proof of the resurection.
I`m living proof.

[CoreIssue]

Still playing the semantical games I see!
Your reply reminds me of why I didn’t continue to post on your previous board. It seems to me that you have no idea what “semantics” means, and have decided to throw that phrase out when you don’t know what to say. If I have played some kind of game with the meaning of words above, demonstrate it. Otherwise, I am responding to precisely what the poster has stated and that isn’t “playing games” it’s operating on the assumption that the author of a message actually meant to say what is included in her message.

Yes. Semantical games.
Instead of posting actual evidence and facts to prove Mormonism you dwell on attacking those who refute you and Mormonism.
The most powerful refute you can make is to actually offer some evidence for Mormonism that has some merit. Just saying you believe by faith proves nothing.

There are no proofs for the claimed Book of Mormon civilizations in South America. And you know that.
Of course I know that. That’s why I consistently equate demands for proof with the fact that there is no proof of the resurrection.

Then you practice an empty belief. Nothing to base your beliefs on but basely claims that must be soley accepted by faith and nothing more. That makes you 100% equal with such as JW's and Moonies. No difference in you ultimate foundations.


On RR you spent 3 full topics claiming you were going to present factual hard evidence for these claims and never did.

That is just plain false on both accounts. If I promised to provide something, I did. I reject that I made any such promise as you indicate above. Of course, you could prove me wrong by posting the message as it appears today on RR. I’ll tell you what the chance is of that: zero.


Let each believe as they will. I am not digging back through the old posts there.

It is not an idea it demolishes it. It is scientific fact.They can trace Indian ancestory back through to Asia and yet you claim it absurb they cannot test for Semitic ancestory.Crack the science books! Catch up to date!

Look at what I wrote, CoreIssue. The fact that Indian ancestry can be traced back to Asia doesn’t in the least affect the claims of the Book of Mormon. It would if the Book of Mormon claimed that all American Indians were solely Jews from Jerusalem, but it never makes such a claim. What, exactly, does the fact of Asian ancestry have to do with anything related to the Book of Mormon?

Rediculous statement. As American Indians share genetics with Asians so would Indians from Jewish ancestory, regardless of tribe, share genetics since they all came from Abraham via Isaac and Jacob.

This is hysterical. In the 70s Mormons swore becoming gods was nonsense (even my Mormon friends denied it).


Hogwash. I cited to you two passages from the Doctrine and Covenants stating the fact that we believe we can become gods. That passage has been published to the world since 1852 – first in the LDS newspaper “Deseret Evening News” and subsequently in every edition of the D&C since that time. It was the subject of US Senate hearings in 1902 and published throughout the last century – including the 70’s. You claim it was denied by Mormons you know, and I say it has been part of our published canon of scripture for more than 150 years. Do you really think your position can hold any water?

And this same bold claim of acceptance was rejected prior. And amazing how what Smith and Young stated are truth at one time and false another, depending on the times and Mormons runing the show.
Like it or not there was a long time period where Mormons denied this as well as refused to even acknowledge Smith was a polygamist per claimed revelation from God.



As was polygamy in eternity and so on. Ex Temple Mormons were ridiculed for declaring this the teachings. Now, oh, we have never denied it! We just deny the polygamy! Tell me. Does the LDS still deny Smith was a polygamist? That the early Mormon Church practiced polygamy? Your guys declarations keep changing.

Good assertions, why not try backing them up?

What? That Smith was a polygamist you Mormons long denied he was?

Who is to say that the Incas, or Toltecs weren't those civilizations of Central America?

And of course the demanded negative proof demand. It is up to you to prove they were. Not anyone else to prove they were not.

Not really, CoreIssue. You see, we don’t believe in proving spiritual things. I don’t believe they belong in realm of proof. That’s why, when Jessica (?) asked for proof I pointed out that there is no proof for the resurrection. My reply has always been that there is no proof. When there is proof for the resurrection, then I think it would be reasonable to ask for proof of Mormonism.

I repeat. You are no different than JW's, Moonies and others who simply declare they have the truth. And yet you all cannot be right.
And irrational on comparing BoM claims with the resurrection. The New Testament was written by Christ's apostles. Manuscript evidence now dates back to their times including Bible fragments and documents from enemies of Christianity who attest to the life of Christ, his death and resurrection.
Said another way 2,000 years of continuous manuscripts and such for the Bible. Zilch for the BoM.
There isn't one scrap of anything demonstrating the BoM historical. Not one shred of BoM manuscript evidence or any such thing. Absolutely nothing contemporary to the times of the supposed civilizations as described in the BoM.
But here you are trying to equate the two as equals.

You sound like the Islamics now.There is manuscript proof of miracles and the resurrection.
Oh boy. Apparently, you’re also unaware of what “proof” means. Copies of original manuscripts claiming that Jesus rose from the dead hardly constitute proof. Any more than the existence of manuscripts of magical spells is proof that magic works. You’re confusing the idea of witnesses with the idea of proof. They aren’t one and the same.

Tell it to a judge in a court of law witnesses are not evidence unless discredited.
And copies are just fine when substantiated they are true copies.
So kiss the BoM goodbye. There is NO hint the BoM existed until Smith invented it.


In fact the evidence proves the Mormon claims are false. Such as the BoM having steel and clear glass in a culture that never got out of the Bronze Age or had glass windows at all.

Good! Now show me a passage from the Book of Mormon that claims that anyone in America had glass windows. That’s the first step of demonstrating you really have something substantial to say. Once you demonstrate such a fact, you’re in a good position to say, “This proves Mormonism false.” The problem, CoreIssue, is that you jump over the first element of an argument to the end where you declare victory. Why do you insist on dispensing with demonstrating any of your claims?

So you deny the ships used had windows to look out of, that the BoM states they had windows, steel, chariots and a bunch of other things that never existed?
And I posted such verses before and DocT, you and others did a merry little jig trying to deny it said what it said.
Do you deny the BoM claims they had chariots, steel, silk and so on?


As I have said many times to you over the years. Stop making negative and other proof claims and lay out your evidence if you have it. Show us the museums with the artifacts from this mythological civilization you keep pointing to.

You seem to live in a mythical land, CoreIssue. You keep asking me for proof of the Book of Mormon, and I keep claiming that I don’t believe there is any proof or that there will be. I have yet to ever point to the civilization of the Book of Mormon to anyone, so how can you say I keep pointing to it?

Then you have no reason to belief it except you wish to.

So why work so hard to get others to accept your desires of belief?


You cannot so you just keep throwing faith statements.

Why not? What kind of proof do you have of the New Testament. Don’t get me wrong. I believe that the Bible is the word of God; but I don’t believe there is any proof for that belief. For me, it is a matter of faith. Unless I have missed something really big, I’m not aware of any more proof for Christianity than exists for Islam or Hare Krishna. What’s wrong with statements of faith? I don’t recall any Bible passages indicating that faith comes from proof. Do you?

Actually I do.

The Bible says all prophets MUST give evidence to prove they are true prophet. Including Christ they all did miracles and such no human could simply explain away.
Christ and the apostles healed and so on. Even the enemies of Christ and Christianity did not deny that fact.

Christianity is a based on evidence that gives reason to make the leap of faith. LDS is purely faith in the same manner JW's and Moonies are.
You never address that fact. You have nothing more than they do to believe but you believe.

I have historical evidence.

Quote:How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”

And the word is presented by prophets who give signs and wonders from God as reason to believe.
You have no such evidence in the BoM or Smith.

[CoreIssue]

InTheWind wrote:My reply has always been that there is no proof. When there is proof for the resurrection, I don`t want to interfer with your debate but Jesus said He would send a comfortor after He left, third part of the Trinity. Point being that if one accepts the resurection as fact then the Holy Spirit will enter you and you become a new person. The living fact of that occurance is proof of the resurection. I`m living proof.

I'm sorry, Intothewind, but that isn't what constitutes proof. It's merely an assertion - or several assertions that you have called proof. Proof involves the comparison against a recognized standard, or the demonstration that a premise is true through a logical process of thought that doesn't rely on a particular interpretation. Look back at what you claimed. Is any of it demonstrable to someone who doesn't already believe in the Bible? The answer is no. A Hindu or a Moslem wouldn't think for a moment that you have demonstrated anything more than your opinion. I believe in the Bible, and I don't think you have proved the resurrection by asserting that you have experienced the Holy Spirit. You would first need to demonstrate in a quantifiable manner that the Holy Spirit actually exists. Do you see the difference between asserting your faith and proving a historical fact?

Alma

[CoreIssue]

Quote:I'm sorry, Intothewind, but that isn't what constitutes proof. It's merely an assertion - or several assertions that you have called proof. Proof involves the comparison against a recognized standard, or the demonstration that a premise is true through a logical process of thought that doesn't rely on a particular interpretation. Look back at what you claimed. Is any of it demonstrable to someone who doesn't already believe in the Bible?


The changes one receives can be evidence to others. Then add in the manuscript and other such proofs and there is indeed proof there for those who recognizes such when one sees the whole picture.

And indeed the Bible, Christ and Christianity meet your definitiion of proof. But Mormonism does not in even the slightest manner.

You have yet to give the slightest glimmer of reason why one should believe in Mormonism logically. LDS are absolutely equal with JWs, Moonies and other such in evidence to back their claims.

[CoreIssue]

I disagree Alma, anyone that rejects the cross and resurrection according to the Bible will spend eternity in Hell.
Any member of any cult that rejects what Christ did on the cross can not experience the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, there faith is false and made by man.
I can show to unbelievers that i am filled with the HS, i have become a different person than i was before i was saved.
Satan has deceived cults by false prophets, man made faith and doctrine, it`s the same thing we see in the world now with the push to remove prayer, any mention of the bible in schools and the push to remove the ten commandments.
Satan knows if he can remove the one true word, that there is only one way to the Father and thats through Jesus then the next generation nobody will be able to be saved from lack of knowledge of the word.
Thats what has happened in the Mormon and other false doctrine, Satan has removed the truth and deceived any who follow into a lie that can`t result in salvation.
Sorry but thats the truth, why don`t you accept the resurrection as the bible teaches and ask Jesus to come into your heart and be filled with the HS, then the truth will set you free, you will experiance the indwelling.
If i have misjudged you and you have done that my apologies.
This whole issue is so simple and so easily resoled by just giving in and experiancing the truth for oneself.

[CoreIssue]

Alma your playing "diversion"
not dealing with the resurection. your not dealing with what has been said
but diverting with excuses.

[a.baker]

I am sorry but what? Why in the world would anyone claim to be a god? That blows my mind but I know the people are out there...really out there. Who in the world would even be able to utter the words that they think they are a god? Also another thing is that no way was God ever a man on any other place. He is not by any means equal to us or us equal to Him. Again how could anyone utter that concept of an idea? Scary; and Mormons believe in Jesus? What would God think; are they our brothers and sisters in Christ. I have no hesitation in saying NO THEY ARE NOT. Please correct me if I am wrong. Mormonism literally makes me feel sick to my stomach.

[Jessie]

people into wof claim they are gods too...

the mormon jesus is'nt the same one we know.