The 144,000... what is their purpose?

[Chrystalwuzhere]

Revelations 14 states the 144,000 appear on mount Sion, not Mount Zion.
Hebrews 12 will tell you where mount Sion is and what occurs there.



The 144,000 are sealed before Satan is cast to Earth. The reason they
are sealed is they are all of Israel that survive the trib. The reason
the rest do not live through the trib is explained in these verses;



Eze:39:23:

And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity:

because they trespassed against me,

therefore hid I my face from them,

and gave them into the hand of their enemies:

so fell they all by the sword.

Eze:39:24:

According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them,

and hid my face from them.

[Chrystalwuzhere]

Revelations 14 states the 144,000 appear on mount Sion, not Mount Zion.

Hebrews 12 will tell you where mount Sion is and what occurs there.

According to Revelation 14, it is Mt. Zion.

REVELATION 14:1;4:

1 And I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.

4 These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.


The 144,000 are sealed before Satan is cast to Earth. The reason they are sealed is they are all of Israel that survive the trib. The reason the rest do not live through the trib is explained in these verses;

You're saying that only 144,000 Jews in Israel will be the ones who survive the Tribulation period? The book of Zechariah contradicts this claim.

When the Lord's feet touch the mount, it will cleave in two, and all who run to Him will be saved.

ZECHARIAH 14

1 Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you.

2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished, and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city.

3 Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle.

4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.

5 And you will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him!

And...this is not counting those who flee into the wilderness and are protected by Him during the Tribulation period...

REVELATION 12

1 And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;

2 and she was with child; and she *cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.

3 And another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems.

4 And his tail *swept away a third of the stars of heaven, and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.

5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child , who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness where she *had a place prepared by God, so that there she might be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
So as you can see, many Jews will be saved in that day.

[Chrystalwuzhere]

Revelations 14 states the 144,000 appear on mount Sion, not Mount Zion.
Hebrews 12 will tell you where mount Sion is and what occurs there.

Same place, different spelling. Due to old versus modern English.

And no. Not the Mount Zion of Hebrews 12. They are not dead. They are at least a part of the Woman protected for 1,260 days.

It is this Mount Zion when his feet touch down where he left from after the First Coming.

Isaiah 11


10 In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his place of rest will be glorious. 11 In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the remnant that is left of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, [b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=11&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-17896b)] from Cush, [c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=11&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-17896c)] from Elam, from Babylonia, [d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=11&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-17896d)] from Hamath and from the islands of the sea.
12 He will raise a banner for the nations
and gather the exiles of Israel;
he will assemble the scattered people of Judah
from the four quarters of the earth. 13 Ephraim's jealousy will vanish,
and Judah's enemies [e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=11&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-17898e)] will be cut off;
Ephraim will not be jealous of Judah,
nor Judah hostile toward Ephraim.


To have them dead makes the 1,260 days of protection from Satan a lie. Cannot be protected from him while being killed by him.

And I don't know if you are into it, but being 144,000 evangelists simple isn't in the Bible. It is assumption.


The 144,000 are sealed before Satan is cast to Earth.
The literal day before.
The reason they are sealed is they are all of Israel that survive the trib. The reason the rest do not live through the trib is explained in these verses;
Sounds like saying all Isreal survives but all Israel does not survive.

2/3 of Israel dies at the hand of the False Trinity during the Great Trib. Just clarifying.


Eze:39:23:

And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity:

because they trespassed against me,

therefore hid I my face from them,

and gave them into the hand of their enemies:

so fell they all by the sword.

Eze:39:24:

According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them,

and hid my face from them.

[Chrystalwuzhere]

Hi Crystal
According to Revelation 14, it is Mt. Zion.

That seems to only depend on which translation you are reading. For example;

(Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) Revelation 14:1 | kai <2532> {AND} eidon <1492> (5627) {I SAW,} kai <2532> {AND} idou <2400> (5628) {BEHOLD, [THE]} arnion <721> {LAMB} esthkoV <2476> (5761) {STANDING} epi <1909> to <3588> {UPON} oroV <3735> {MOUNT} siwn <4622> {SION,} kai <2532> {AND} met <3326> {WITH} autou <846> {HIM} ekaton <1540> {A HUNDRED [AND]} tessarakonta <5062> {FORTY} tessareV <5064> {FOUR} ciliadeV <5505> {THOUSAND,} ecousai <2192> (5723) {HAVING} to <3588> {THE} onoma <3686> {NAME} tou <3588> patroV <3962> autou <846> {OF HIS FATHER} gegrammenon <1125> (5772) {WRITTEN} epi <1909> {ON} twn <3588> metwpwn <3359> autwn <846> {THEIR FOREHEADS.}

Heb:12:22:

But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,

The above verse would seem to put Sion in Heaven, not on Earth, even the OT references Sion as being the place of God's throne;

Psalms:65:1:
Praise waiteth for thee,
O God,
in Sion:
and unto thee shall the vow be performed.

Is the above verse fullfilled in the verses below?

Re:5:11:

And I beheld,
and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders:
and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand,
and thousands of thousands;

Re:5:12:

Saying with a loud voice,
Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power,
and riches,
and wisdom,
and strength,
and honour,
and glory,
and blessing.

Re:5:13:

And every creature which is in heaven,
and on the earth,
and under the earth,
and such as are in the sea,
and all that are in them,
heard I saying,
Blessing,
and honour,
and glory,
and power,
be unto him that sitteth upon the throne,
and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

From the above, why should I not believe that mount Sion is in Heaven, while mount Zion is an Earthly place, even seperate from Jerusalem;

Isa:4:3:

And it shall come to pass,
that he that is left in Zion,
and he that remaineth in Jerusalem,
shall be called holy,
even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:

Isa:30:19:

For the people shall dwell in Zion at Jerusalem:
thou shalt weep no more:
he will be very gracious unto thee at the voice of thy cry;
when he shall hear it,
he will answer thee.

Zion seems to be a larger area than Jerusalem.

Psalms:87:1:

His foundation is in the holy mountains.

Psalms:87:2:

The LORD loveth the gates of Zion more than all the dwellings of Jacob.

Zec:8:3:

Thus saith the LORD;
I am returned unto Zion,
and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem:
and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth;
and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.

From the above verses there does seem to be a possibility that there two places that are holy, His beloved city, Jerusalem.You seem to have either not considered mount Zion being in anotherplace, or that it is in Jerusalem, yet seperate. Has the place in theverse belowceasedto
be holy;

Ex:3:1:

Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law,
the priest of Midian:
and he led the flock to the backside of the desert,
and came to the mountain of God,
even to Horeb.

Ex:3:5:

And he said,
Draw not nigh hither:
put off thy shoes from off thy feet,
for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.



You'resaying that only 144,000 Jews inIsrael will be theones who survive theTribulation period? Thebook of Zechariahcontradicts
thisclaim. When the Lord's feettouch the mount, itwill cleave in
two,and all who run to Him will besaved.

Zechariah doesn't name who these are, Exekiel certainly names Israel as being all put to the sword, as do other Prophets;

Ho:9:1:

Rejoice not,
O Israel,
for joy,
as other people:
for thou hast gone a whoring from thy God,
thou hast loved a reward upon every cornfloor.

Ho:9:2:

The floor and the winepress shall not feed them,
and the new wine shall fail in her.

Ho:9:3:

They shall not dwell in the LORD's land;
but Ephraim shall return to Egypt,
and they shall eat unclean things in Assyria.

Ho:9:4:

They shall not offer wine offerings to the LORD,
neither shall they be pleasing unto him:
their sacrifices shall be unto them as the bread of mourners;
all that eat thereof shall be polluted:
for their bread for their soul shall not come into the house of the LORD.

Ho:9:5:

What will ye do in the solemn day,
and in the day of the feast of the LORD?

Ho:9:6:

For,
lo,
they are gone because of destruction:
Egypt shall gather them up,
Memphis shall bury them:
the pleasant places for their silver,
nettles shall possess them:
thorns shall be in their tabernacles.

Ho:9:7:

The days of visitation are come,
the days of recompence are come;
Israel shall know it:
the prophet is a fool,
the spiritual man is mad,
for the multitude of thine iniquity,
and the great hatred.

Ho:9:8:

The watchman of Ephraim was with my God:
but the prophet is a snare of a fowler in all his ways,
and hatred in the house of his God.

Ho:9:9:

They have deeply corrupted themselves,
as in the days of Gibeah:
therefore he will remember their iniquity,
he will visit their sins.

Ho:9:10:

I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness;
I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time:
but they went to Baal-peor,
and separated themselves unto that shame;
and their abominations were according as they loved.

Ho:9:11:

As for Ephraim,
their glory shall fly away like a bird,
from the birth,
and from the womb,
and from the conception.

Ho:9:12:

Though they bring up their children,
yet will I bereave them,
that there shall not be a man left:
yea,
woe also to them when I depart from them!

And...this is not counting thosewho flee into the wildernessand are protected by Him during theTribulation period...

Who says this is even one more than the144,000? The woman from Vs:13 on would seem to be a better discriptionof who recievesprotection on Earthwhile Satan is having his 42 monthshere.

The woman you referenced is before the war in Heaven.

So as you can see, many Jews will be saved in that day.

Actually, 'in that day' they whole House of Israel is saved through resurrection;

Eze:39:25:

Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD;
Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob,
and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel,
and will be jealous for my holy name;

Eze:39:26:

After that they have borne their shame,
and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me,
when they dwelt safely in their land,
and none made them afraid.

Eze:39:27:

When I have brought them again from the people,
and gathered them out of their enemies' lands,
and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

Eze:39:28:

Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God,
which cause them to be led into captivity among the heathen:
but I have gathered them unto their own land,
and have left none of them any more there.

Eze:39:29:

Neither will I hide my face any more from them:
for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel,
saith the Lord GOD.

Eze:37:10:

So I prophesied as he commanded me,
and the breath came into them,
and they lived,
and stood up upon their feet,
an exceeding great army.

Eze:37:11:

Then he said unto me,
Son of man,
these bones are the whole house of Israel:
behold,
they say,
Our bones are dried,
and our hope is lost:
we are cut off for our parts.

Eze:37:12:

Therefore prophesy and say unto them,
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Behold,
O my people,
I will open your graves,
and cause you to come up out of your graves,
and bring you into the land of Israel.

Eze:37:13:

And ye shall know that I am the LORD,
when I have opened your graves,
O my people,
and brought you up out of your graves,

Eze:37:14:

And shall put my spirit in you,
and ye shall live,
and I shall place you in your own land:
then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it,
and performed it,
saith the LORD.

[Chrystalwuzhere]

Hi Crystal

From the above, why should I not believe that mount Sion is in Heaven, while mount Zion is an Earthly place, even seperate from Jerusalem;
Hi MHz! :tiphat:

Core hit the nail on the head regarding this issue, so I'll just quote him:
Same place, different spelling. Due to old versus modern English.


Isa:4:3:
And it shall come to pass,
that he that is left in Zion,
and he that remaineth in Jerusalem,
shall be called holy,
even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:

Isa:30:19:
For the people shall dwell in Zion at Jerusalem:
thou shalt weep no more:
he will be very gracious unto thee at the voice of thy cry;
when he shall hear it,
he will answer thee.

Zion seems to be a larger area than Jerusalem.
These verses refer to the millenial reign of Christ in Jerusalem.

Zechariah doesn't name who these are, Exekiel certainly names Israel as being all put to the sword, as do other Prophets;


Oh, but it does. Zechariah says that Jerusalem is surrounded... who else would be in Jerusalem, and the target of all the nations? Who else would need to be rescued from the surrounding armies trying to vanquish them?

As we see in Zechariah 14:2 Jerusalem is surrounded, the city captured, the houses plundered, the women raped, and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people (Jews) will not be cut off from the city. It is then that the Lord will come and fight...set His feet on the mount, it will cleave in two, and those who run to Him will be saved. Jews.

ZECHARIAH 14


1 Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you.

2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished, and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city.

3 Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle.

4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.

5 And you will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him!



And...this is not counting those who flee into the wilderness and are protected by Him during theTribulation period...

Who says this is even one more than the144,000? The woman fromVs:13 on would seem to be a better discription of who recieves protection on Earthwhile Satan is having his 42 months here. The woman you referenced is before the war in Heaven.

But we see from the 12th chapter of Revelation that the woman (Israel) will run to the wilderness, and will be protected for 1,260 days. Who exactly do you believe these people are?

[Chrystalwuzhere]

Hi again Chrystal,
Core hit the nail on the head regarding this issue, so I'll just quote him: Same place, different spelling. Due to old versus modern English.

Yes, I have read that also. Does this also mean Hebrews 12:22 also takes place on Earth?

Is the scene from Revelations 14 taking place near the event in these verses;

Re:15:1:

And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Re:15:2:

And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Re:15:3:

And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Re:15:4:

Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This is very similar to what is happening with the 144,000 in the previous chapter;

Re:14:3:

And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

This would seem to be the very same throne as seen in ch 4;

Re:4:2:

And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

More verses in this chapter echo what is seen in chapter 14. The heavenly Jerusalem doesn't come to Earth before this;


Re:21:1:

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Re:21:2:

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Re:21:3:

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

The time frame for this occuring seems to be after the thousand years
because the 'old heaven and the old earth' do not expire untill
afterSatan's 'little season'.

Re:20:10:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Re:20:11:

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

These verses refer to the millenial reign of Christ in Jerusalem.

Yes,that is true, I was only trying to establish by what names earthly Jerusalem, heavenly Jerusalem, and God's mountain can be called.

Oh, but it does. Zechariah says that Jerusalem is surrounded... who else would be in Jerusalem


Re:11:1:

And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood,
saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

Re:11:2:

But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

It would seem that the Gentiles occupy all but a small portion of Jerusalem. They certainly see the bodies of the two witnesses;

Re:11:8:

And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Re:11:9:

And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

Re:11:10:

And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

The Gentiles also seem to end up giving Glory to God about this time;


Re:11:13:

And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.


Would those who gave glory to God be included in the group in the verse below;


Re:18:4:
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

When Christ is speaking in the OT about a timethat has yet to occur and He mentions 'my people' is that referencingIsrael or Gentiles that have confessed that Christ is Lord?

But we see from the 12th chapter of Revelation that the woman(Israel) will run to the wilderness, and will be protected for 1,260days. Who exactly do you believe these people are?

It could certainly be just the 144,000, but it could also include any Gentiles who have turned to Christ.

Israel is never specified as either of the two women in chapter 12.

When Ezekiel states that Christ hides His face from Israel in ch 39 what chances do you think they have of not being killed. The fate of those that take part in this is very unpleasant. Not every person of every nation will be a part of this, only those who delight in unrighteousness.

This would be a lot simpler subject if there were not so many verses to consider when looking for a clear answer. I'll certainly try to post new thoughts on each post because I hate going over the same words time and time again.

[Chrystalwuzhere]

You seem to conclude that the Bible excludes the Jews from His Millenial kingdom, with the exception of the 144,000. What is your view of God's covenant with Abraham?

[Chrystalwuzhere]

You seem to conclude that the Bible excludes the Jews from His Millenial kingdom, with the exception of the 144,000. What is your view of God's covenant with Abraham?


Gosh no, Israel is resurrected down to the very last person for the thousand years, that was also posted and is in both chapters 37 & 39 of Exekiel.

[Chrystalwuzhere]

Hi Chrystal,

Apparently the rain has given me a few more moments to expand on the above post. Besides the chapters mentioned above there is another passage that describes Christ's actions for all of Israel concerning their full restoration. As we use different translations I will post the verse so you can compare the message;

Jer:30:17:

For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds,
saith the LORD; because they called thee an Outcast, saying, This is Zion, whom no man seeketh after.

Jer:30:18:

Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwellingplaces; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof.

Jer:30:19:

And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry: and I will multiply them, and they shall not be few;
I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.

Jer:30:20:

Their children also shall be as aforetime, and their congregation shall be established before me, and I will punish all that oppress them.

Jer:30:21:

And their nobles shall be of themselves, and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them; and I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me: for who is this that engaged his heart to approach unto me? saith the LORD.

Jer:30:22:

And ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Jer:30:23:

Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD goeth forth with fury, a continuing whirlwind: it shall fall with pain upon the head of the wicked.

Jer:30:24:

The fierce anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have done it,
and until he have performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.

Jer:31:1:

At the same time, saith the LORD, will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people.

Jer:31:2:

Thus saith the LORD, The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest.

Jer:31:3:

The LORD hath appeared of old unto me,
saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

Jer:31:4:

Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel:
thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets,
and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry.

Jer:31:5:

Thou shalt yet plant vines upon the mountains of Samaria: the planters shall plant, and shall eat them as common things.

Jer:31:6:

For there shall be a day, that the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry, Arise ye, and let us go up to Zion unto the LORD our God.

Jer:31:7:

For thus saith the LORD; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O LORD, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.

Jer:31:8:

Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.

Jer:31:9:

They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them:
I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

Jer:31:10:

Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him,
as a shepherd doth his flock.

Jer:31:11:

For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he.

Jer:31:12:

Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all.

Jer:31:13:

Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, both young men and old together: for I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them,
and make them rejoice from their sorrow.

Jer:31:14:

And I will satiate the soul of the priests with fatness, and my people shall be satisfied with my goodness, saith the LORD.

Israel will fare better than the nations for the thousand years because, as a people, they are whole. Those from the nations who enter the thousand years are certainly fortunate indeed, but as these next few verses indicate some are not as comforted as Israel because the enemy (death) still hold some of their children untill the Great White Throne;

Jer:31:15:

Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation,
and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.

Jer:31:16:

Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.

Jer:31:17:

And there is hope in thine end, saith the LORD, that thy children shall come again to their own border.

Hope this helps you understand my view on Israel's future according to the Scripture I have read so far, while I do feel sorry for what will occur during the trib I also feel gladness for what will be their reward after the trib.

[Chrystalwuzhere]

Yes, I have read that also. Does this also mean Hebrews 12:22 also takes place on Earth? Is the scene from Revelations 14 taking place near the event in these verses;
Hebrews 12 has nothing to do with the 144,000. Whole other issue.
Let Revelation speak for itself.

The 144,000 are sealed on day 1,260 when the AC army is marching on Israel. They, either being the Woman or part of the Woman fell. Very much alive.

Satan is cast down in the First Woe of the Fifth Trumpet on day 1,261. He immediately attacks the Woman, but it is too late. She has reached safety and hidden away very much alive.

They are protected from Satan for 1,260 days, which added to Mid reached the Second Coming when Christ stands as a Banner on Mount Zion and summons living Israel to him.

So they are very much alive at the Second Coming. It says they will survive the full 1,260 days.

Now looking at Rev 14. It cannot be the Heavenly Zion because we are told they are in the desert in the mountains for 1,260. That eliminates that possibility.

And Christ cannot be on the earth because he does not return until the Second Coimng.

That leaves but one solution from this aspect. This is the Second Coming.
And it speaks of Armageddon which is also Second Coming.

But this is Mid. So what does it mean?

Chapter 12 starts begins a historical/prophetic review to encapulate and give meaning to a number of issues. It begins with the ancient War in Heaven, jumps forward to the birth of Christ, jumps forward to the then present day of Mid and then jumps forward to the Second Coming.
Then the Seals -Trumpets - Bowls time flow resumes with the Bowls.
So no. There is no way the 144,000 can be dead and no way this is anything but the Second Coming.

[Chrystalwuzhere]

You seem to conclude that the Bible excludes the Jews from His Millenial kingdom, with the exception of the 144,000. What is your view of God's covenant with Abraham?


Gosh no, Israel is resurrected down to the very last person for the
thousand years, That was also posted and is in both chapters 37 &
39 of Exekiel.

Actually, no.

Dead means gone and ready for judgement. No Second Chances. No second life times.

The valley of dry bones is referring to Israel as a nation, not the dead resurrecting. A dead nation, spiritually speaking, returning to life.

[MHz]

Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:24 pm by Chrystalwuzhere.

Note: The first 24 posts on this thread were copied over from the old board by Chrystalwuzhere.

During the Trib. the Lord is gonna call, save, and seal 12,000 out of each of the 12 tribes of Israel. What will be their purpose? That is, what role will they fulfill during the Trib?
Hi Chrystal,

I'm glad to see a short version of this thread.

I would have to read this all first lets see if my view is still the same.
the 144,000 stay alive until Christ is standing on the earth, at that time everybody ever born into the 12 tribes comes out of their graves from over the whole earth. All of these are led to the livings waters and then cleanse the land and start to repair the land, one of the first things that occures is the waters of the dead sea are healed so fishing is a huge market. Just a little proof that God is actually in control for us Gentiles.
Before Christ arrives but after they are sealed they are an example of the difference between being affected by Satan's first & second woes (pain & death)and not having it affect you.
The same would be for those in the Isles who prayed.
I don't know if they would be in Israel or in the Nations or a combination. They should be pretty easy to spot, they would have the same abilities as the Apostles, healing by word alone or a touch of the hands, etc. Power would remain with the two witnesses.
Now I'll go do some reading to see if I came close.

Hi Core,

Dead means gone and ready for judgement. No Second Chances. No second life times.

The valley of dry bones is referring to Israel as a nation, not the dead resurrecting. A dead nation, spiritually speaking, returning to life.

A topic that might comsume a few pages or if you have a link to an existing thread I might catch up by reading rather than starting a new thread.

Would a nation be considered to be desolate if God witheld his protective gaze even if there were buildings standing, like as in the Holy land when the Jews are in exile?

[CoreIssue]

the 144,000 stay alive until Christ is standing on the earth,
OK. We agree the 144,000 do not die in the Trib.
at that time everybody ever born into the 12 tribes comes out of their graves from over the whole earth. All of these are led to the livings waters and then cleanse the land and start to repair the land, one of the first things that occures is the waters of the dead sea are healed so fishing is a huge market. Just a little proof that God is actually in control for us Gentiles.
This is a different thread topic. I you wish to discuss the MK regarding resurrection please start another thread.

We don't want to get off topic like that again here.
Before Christ arrives but after they are sealed they are an example of the difference between being affected by Satan's first & second woes (pain & death)and not having it affect you.
Again, we agree they are protected. I believe we may disagree on how they are protected though.

The Bible says they are taken to a place of safety, probably Ebla, where they are sealed away from Satan and the AC for 3.5 years.

As for the Woes statement here, again, anothe thread topic. Please start one on that if you wish to discuss it.

The same would be for those in the Isles who prayed.
I don't know if they would be in Israel or in the Nations or a combination. They should be pretty easy to spot, they would have the same abilities as the Apostles, healing by word alone or a touch of the hands, etc.

They do not go out into the world duing the Trib. Not Biblical. They are taken to a place of safety.
Power would remain with the two witnesses.
Only for the first half of the Trib. But we have a disagreement there since you do not believe in a 7 year Trib.

Again, that is another thread topic. Not about the purpose of the 144,000.

Now I'll go do some reading to see if I came close.

Hi Core,

Hi, MHz.

Please start another thread on when the Rapture is, if you even believe in a Rapture.:tiphat:


A topic that might comsume a few pages or if you have a link to an existing thread I might catch up by reading rather than starting a new thread.

Would a nation be considered to be desolate if God witheld his protective gaze even if there were buildings standing, like as in the Holy land when the Jews are in exile?

Definitely another thread, which we currently do not have.

Yes, I have an answer for that, but not here.:D

[MHz]

Hi Core,
OK. We agree the 144,000 do not die in the Trib.
Yep

Again, we agree they are protected. I believe we may disagree on how they are protected though.
The Earth protects them;
Re:12:16:
And the earth helped the woman,
and the earth opened her mouth,
and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

The Bible says they are taken to a place of safety, probably Ebla, where they are sealed away from Satan and the AC for 3.5 years.
Is this the same Ebla that is in northern Syria?

They do not go out into the world duing the Trib. Not Biblical. They are taken to a place of safety.
I agree that they safe in that Satan cannot get to them, by saying Nations I was only indicating it was further than the boundries given for Israel in Scripture, but not specifically in the middle of a populated area.
When Jesus was baptised it said He was led into the wilderness and didn't eat for the 40 days He was there, do you see this as being the same for the 144,000?

Do you see any role for the 144,000, beyond being a portion of Israel that has the blindness (about Jesus being the Messiah) lifted, in that Gentiles who have been accepted by Christ are also allowed into the same 'wilderness'?
I agree that they aren't preaching the Gospel but it would still seem that since they are sealed by the Holy Spirit they 'might' have some of the 'gifts' that are associated with that, healing being one of the gifts.

[CoreIssue]

Hi MHz

Quote:
Again, we agree they are protected. I believe we may disagree on how they are protected though.
The Earth protects them;
Re:12:16:
And the earth helped the woman,
and the earth opened her mouth,
and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

By God's hand, of course.



Quote:
The Bible says they are taken to a place of safety, probably Ebla, where they are sealed away from Satan and the AC for 3.5 years.
Is this the same Ebla that is in northern Syria?
Yeesh! Where is my brain! I meant Petra.

Ebla was where the ancient library was.

Quote:

They do not go out into the world duing the Trib. Not Biblical. They are taken to a place of safety.
I agree that they safe in that Satan cannot get to them, by saying Nations I was only indicating it was further than the boundries given for Israel in Scripture, but not specifically in the middle of a populated area.
When Jesus was baptised it said He was led into the wilderness and didn't eat for the 40 days He was there, do you see this as being the same for the 144,000?

No. I see them and the rest of the Woman living in Petra for 3.5 years. No 40 days anything for them.
Do you see any role for the 144,000, beyond being a portion of Israel that has the blindness (about Jesus being the Messiah) lifted, in that Gentiles who have been accepted by Christ are also allowed into the same 'wilderness'?

Yes, but not in the Trib.

As the First Fruits they are the first physical chosen to rule with Christ in the MK.

And no. There is not one word about Gentiles being part of the Woman or being protected in any manner.

The 144,000 are Jewish males from the 12 Tribes. They are not Church.
I agree that they aren't preaching the Gospel but it would still seem that since they are sealed by the Holy Spirit they 'might' have some of the 'gifts' that are associated with that, healing being one of the gifts.

Nope. Biblically the are sealed for protection because they are the First Fruits of the New Covenant with the Houses of Israel and Judah.

[MHz]

Hi Core,
I meant Petra.

The same place where the eye of the needle is right?

No 40 days anything for them.[QUOTE]

Do they get hungry during this 1260 days, Jesus didn't eat when He was in the wilderness, these are said to also be in the 'wilderness'.

[QUOTE]There is not one word about Gentiles being part of the Woman or being protected in any manner.

So Gentiles praying will have no effect? A topic for another thread might be best for this

The 144,000 are Jewish males from the 12 Tribes. They are not Church.

Not married either, I agree that they are from Israel alone, no Gentiles are part of the 144,000. Would they have to be between the ages of 30-50 as was required to serve in the OT Temple (not saying that these do any type of service like this, just trying to see if we should know how old they might be).

Biblically the are sealed for protection because they are the First Fruits of the New Covenant with the Houses of Israel and Judah.

These are chosen from living people and are not resurrected from the dead right.

[CoreIssue]

Hi MHz,

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreIssue
I meant Petra.


The same place where the eye of the needle is right?
Yes.

No 40 days anything for them.

Do they get hungry during this 1260 days, Jesus didn't eat when He was in the wilderness, these are said to also be in the 'wilderness'.
No. Some say Petra is already prepared as a refuge for Israel.

Obviously they will have food. Even if brought with them as canned, dried and other.

There is no connection between Jesus and his 40 days and this issue.

Israel spent 40 years in the wilderness.
Quote:


There is not one word about Gentiles being part of the Woman or being protected in any manner.

So Gentiles praying will have no effect? A topic for another thread might be best for this
The Bible is quite clear. They are turned over to Satan.
They are not Church.

Quote:
The 144,000 are Jewish males from the 12 Tribes. They are not Church.

Not married either, I agree that they are from Israel alone, no Gentiles are part of the 144,000. Would they have to be between the ages of 30-50 as was required to serve in the OT Temple (not saying that these do any type of service like this, just trying to see if we should know how old they might be).
They are not serving in the Temple during the Trib. They are First Fruits.
So all they have to be is old enough to turn to Jesus.

Quote:
Biblically the are sealed for protection because they are the First Fruits of the New Covenant with the Houses of Israel and Judah.

These are chosen from living people and are not resurrected from the dead right.
Right.
Resurrected includes being glorified. There is no glorfied flesh on the earth in the Trib.
And in the MK there will be glorified Church and Trib saints. But the rest of the world will be earthly flesh, including the 144,000 and all Israel gathered from the nations. And the Gentile nations as well.

[MHz]

Hi Core;

Israel spent 40 years in the wilderness.
Yes, food supplied by God;

Ex:16:4:
Then said the LORD unto Moses,
Behold,
I will rain bread from heaven for you;
and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day,
that I may prove them,
whether they will walk in my law, or no.

And in the MK there will be glorified Church and Trib saints. But the rest of the world will be earthly flesh, including the 144,000 and all Israel gathered from the nations. And the Gentile nations as well.

By earthly flesh does this include the resurrected members of Israel, they seem to be led to the living waters;

Jer:31:9:
They shall come with weeping,
and with supplications will I lead them:
I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way,
wherein they shall not stumble:
for I am a father to Israel,
and Ephraim is my firstborn.

Eze:47:12:
And by the river upon the bank thereof,
on this side and on that side,
shall grow all trees for meat,
whose leaf shall not fade,
neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed:
it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months,
because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary:
and the fruit thereof shall be for meat,
and the leaf thereof for medicine.

[CoreIssue]

Hi MHz;

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreIssue
Israel spent 40 years in the wilderness.

Yes, food supplied by God;

Ex:16:4:
Then said the LORD unto Moses,
Behold,
I will rain bread from heaven for you;
and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day,
that I may prove them,
whether they will walk in my law, or no.

We don't know that. Exodus proves nothing for the Trib.

Petra could be very well stocked as a shelter right now. It has long been rumored it has been already set up for that.


Quote:
And in the MK there will be glorified Church and Trib saints. But the rest of the world will be earthly flesh, including the 144,000 and all Israel gathered from the nations. And the Gentile nations as well.

By earthly flesh does this include the resurrected members of Israel, they seem to be led to the living waters;
No. It does not.

Those collected include even children.

Resurrected includes glorification. Such as Lazarus were not resurrected and there is no such promise of a second life span on this earth for Israel in the Bible.

Jer:31:9:
They shall come with weeping,
and with supplications will I lead them:
I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way,
wherein they shall not stumble:
for I am a father to Israel,
and Ephraim is my firstborn.
No one killed here. They are the survivors of the Trib.
1 "At that time," declares the LORD, "I will be the God of all the clans of Israel, and they will be my people." 2 This is what the LORD says:
"The people who survive the sword
will find favor in the desert;
I will come to give rest to Israel."

Eze:47:12:
And by the river upon the bank thereof,
on this side and on that side,
shall grow all trees for meat,
whose leaf shall not fade,
neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed:
it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months,
because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary:
and the fruit thereof shall be for meat,
and the leaf thereof for medicine.
This describes the MK Temple and MK Israel around.

Indeed it will be a marvelous place. But it will be populated for earthly flesh that still gets married and has kids. No resurrected glorified flesh mentioned here.

God will redo and remake a lot of the earth from what I read. But it will not be the Eternal New Earth where only glorified human flesh resides.

That comes after the MK.

[MHz]

Petra could be very well stocked as a shelter right now. It has long been rumored it has been already set up for that.

As a fortress it is a good choice.
Resurrected includes glorification. Such as Lazarus were not resurrected and there is no such promise of a second life span on this earth for Israel in the Bible.

The dead of Israel from it's very foundation;

Eze:37:9:
Then said he unto me,
Prophesy unto the wind,
prophesy,
son of man,
and say to the wind,
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Come from the four winds,
O breath,
and breathe upon these slain,
that they may live.
Eze:37:10:
So I prophesied as he commanded me,
and the breath came into them,
and they lived,
and stood up upon their feet,
an exceeding great army.
Eze:37:11:
Then he said unto me,
Son of man,
these bones are the whole house of Israel:
behold,
they say,
Our bones are dried,
and our hope is lost:
we are cut off for our parts.
Eze:37:12:
Therefore prophesy and say unto them,
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Behold,
O my people,
I will open your graves,
and cause you to come up out of your graves,
and bring you into the land of Israel.
Eze:37:13:
And ye shall know that I am the LORD,
when I have opened your graves,
O my people,
and brought you up out of your graves,
Eze:37:14:
And shall put my spirit in you,
and ye shall live,
and I shall place you in your own land:
then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it,
and performed it,
saith the LORD.
Eze:37:15:
The word of the LORD came again unto me,
saying,
Eze:37:16:
Moreover,
thou son of man,
take thee one stick,
and write upon it,
For Judah,
and for the children of Israel his companions:
then take another stick,
and write upon it,
For Joseph,
the stick of Ephraim,
and for all the house of Israel his companions:
Eze:37:17:
And join them one to another into one stick;
and they shall become one in thine hand.
Eze:37:18:
And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee,
saying,
Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
Eze:37:19:
Say unto them,
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Behold,
I will take the stick of Joseph,
which is in the hand of Ephraim,
and the tribes of Israel his fellows,
and will put them with him,
even with the stick of Judah,
and make them one stick,
and they shall be one in mine hand.

The ones still alive when the above is fullfilled and a fullfillment of a promise to both;

Eze:37:21:
And say unto them,
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Behold,
I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen,
whither they be gone,
and will gather them on every side,
and bring them into their own land:
Eze:37:22:
And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel;
and one king shall be king to them all:
and they shall be no more two nations,
neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Eze:37:23:
Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols,
nor with their detestable things,
nor with any of their transgressions:
but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces,
wherein they have sinned,
and will cleanse them:
so shall they be my people,
and I will be their God.
Eze:37:24:
And David my servant shall be king over them;
and they all shall have one shepherd:
they shall also walk in my judgments,
and observe my statutes,
and do them.
Eze:37:25:
And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt;
and they shall dwell therein,
even they, and their children,
and their children's children for ever:
and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
Eze:37:26:
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them;
it shall be an everlasting covenant with them:
and I will place them,
and multiply them,
and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
Eze:37:27:
My tabernacle also shall be with them:
yea,
I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
Eze:37:28:
And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel,
when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

God will redo and remake a lot of the earth from what I read. But it will not be the Eternal New Earth where only glorified human flesh resides.

That comes after the MK.

I agree that the new earth is after the thousand years and Judgement Day.

Later

[CoreIssue]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreIssue
Petra could be very well stocked as a shelter right now. It has long been rumored it has been already set up for that.


As a fortress it is a good choice.
Too much so to be coincidence, I believe.

Quote:
Resurrected includes glorification. Such as Lazarus were not resurrected and there is no such promise of a second life span on this earth for Israel in the Bible.

The dead of Israel from it's very foundation;
Ezekiel is not talking about the dead getting a second chance at salvation. It is appointed to men once to die and then the judgment.

You are giving them two changes and two deaths. Not Biblical.

It is referring to Israel as a nation, not the individuals within the nation. Indeed Israel, which is dry bones as a people, will live again and turn to God.

When asked what it means here was the literal statement. Cleary nation, not individuals, which would violate the Bible if it was.

Behold,
I will take the stick of Joseph,
which is in the hand of Ephraim,
and the tribes of Israel his fellows,
and will put them with him,
even with the stick of Judah,
and make them one stick,
and they shall be one in mine hand.

The ones still alive when the above is fullfilled and a fullfillment of a promise to both;
No. There is not second chance at life and salvation.

Living Israel will be gathered and will become a living nation.


Quote:
God will redo and remake a lot of the earth from what I read. But it will not be the Eternal New Earth where only glorified human flesh resides.

That comes after the MK.

I agree that the new earth is after the thousand years and Judgement Day.

OK
Later
Yep.

[MHz]

Hi Core,
Do you believe in resurrection of the dead for all of Israel?

[CoreIssue]

Hi Core,
Do you believe in resurrection of the dead for all of Israel?
Everyone will resurrect either in the First or Second Resurrection.

Saints in the First to Glorification and Rewards. The lost in the Second to the White Throne Judgment.

So all of Israel will resurrect to one or the other just as all Gentiles will.

But absolutely not will all Israel resurrect to live on this earth in the MK. Never said. Violates the one life then judgment of the Bible.

Don't confuse references to Israel as a nation with Israel as individuals.


Hebrews 9
27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

One shot. Not two.

[MHz]

Hi Core,
Everyone will resurrect either in the First or Second Resurrection.
Saints in the First to Glorification and Rewards. The lost in the Second to the White Throne Judgment.
So all of Israel will resurrect to one or the other just as all Gentiles will.
But absolutely not will all Israel resurrect to live on this earth in the MK. Never said. Violates the one life then judgment of the Bible.
Don't confuse references to Israel as a nation with Israel as individuals.
One shot. Not two.

I don't have them dieing again, birth in the flesh, death in the flesh, resurrection to eternal life.

All of life on earth share one common enemy, death. As a pre-tribber you have any dead Christian being included in the rapture right?
When a person dies is he then in the land of his enemy? Is being resurrected being taken from the land of our enemy?


1Co:15:26:
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

The 144,000 would be included here, they become immortal when they drink from the living waters, they cannot get there before the dead are raised. (during the trib they are in the same state as OT Prophets ot the Apostles.
1Co:15:51:
Behold,
I shew you a mystery;
We shall not all sleep,
but we shall all be changed,
1Co:15:52:
In a moment,
in the twinkling of an eye,
at the last trump:
for the trumpet shall sound,
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,
and we shall be changed.
1Co:15:53:
For this corruptible must put on incorruption,
and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co:15:54:
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption,
and this mortal shall have put on immortality,
then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,
Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co:15:55:
O death,
where is thy sting?
O grave,
where is thy victory?
1Co:15:56:
The sting of death is sin;
and the strength of sin is the law.

If the verses below were to mean enemy as being people and not death vs:27 would say 'your enemy the people' but this is two places they are gathered from, the people and the land of their enemy (death) since vs;23 says they are in the hand of their enemy
Eze:39:23:
And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity:
because they trespassed against me,
therefore hid I my face from them,
and gave them into the hand of their enemies:
so fell they all by the sword.
Eze:39:24:
According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
Eze:39:25:
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD;
Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob,
and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel,
and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze:39:26:
After that they have borne their shame,
and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me,
when they dwelt safely in their land,
and none made them afraid.
Eze:39:27:
When I have brought them again from the people,
and gathered them out of their enemies' lands,
and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

[CoreIssue]

Hi Core,

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreIssue
Everyone will resurrect either in the First or Second Resurrection.
Saints in the First to Glorification and Rewards. The lost in the Second to the White Throne Judgment.
So all of Israel will resurrect to one or the other just as all Gentiles will.
But absolutely not will all Israel resurrect to live on this earth in the MK. Never said. Violates the one life then judgment of the Bible.
Don't confuse references to Israel as a nation with Israel as individuals.
One shot. Not two.


I don't have them dieing again, birth in the flesh, death in the flesh, resurrection to eternal life.

All of life on earth share one common enemy, death. As a pre-tribber you have any dead Christian being included in the rapture right?
When a person dies is he then in the land of his enemy? Is being resurrected being taken from the land of our enemy?


OK. I don't want to be wrong here in what I thought you have said.

What I read implied every Jews that has lived will be resurrected and live in Israel.

Now, keeping with that thought not every Jew who ever lived will resurrect to Eternal Life. The majority will resurrect to the White Throne Judgment and the Second Death. And will not live on the earth again.

Plus, it is not clear every OT Jews will come with Christ in the Second Coming. In fact, I am not sure any will come.

I see the Bride stated as coming. Only the Bride.

I see the 24 Elders before the Throne of the Father as the Wife of God, not the Bride of Christ.

So the Jewish saints seem to have a place in Heaven before the Father. Not coming back to the earth.

Not positive on that point. My 100% positive on the saved Jews will resurrect in the First Resurrection with the remainder in the Second.

If you don't believe every Jews who has lived will resurrect, please correct me.

1Co:15:26:
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

The 144,000 would be included here, they become immortal when they drink from the living waters, they cannot get there before the dead are raised. (during the trib they are in the same state as OT Prophets ot the Apostles.
Same state? No.

OT saints and the Apostles are very dead and in the spirit in Heaven.

The 144,000 are very much in the flesh and on the earth.
1Co:15:51:
Behold,
I shew you a mystery;
We shall not all sleep,
but we shall all be changed,
1Co:15:52:
In a moment,
in the twinkling of an eye,
at the last trump:
for the trumpet shall sound,
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,
and we shall be changed.
1Co:15:53:
For this corruptible must put on incorruption,
and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co:15:54:
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption,
and this mortal shall have put on immortality,
then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,
Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co:15:55:
O death,
where is thy sting?
O grave,
where is thy victory?
1Co:15:56:
The sting of death is sin;
and the strength of sin is the law.

The 144,000 are neither dead nor in Heaven in the Trib.
If the verses below were to mean enemy as being people and not death vs:27 would say 'your enemy the people' but this is two places they are gathered from, the people and the land of their enemy (death) since vs;23 says they are in the hand of their enemy
Eze:39:23:
And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity:
because they trespassed against me,
therefore hid I my face from them,
and gave them into the hand of their enemies:
so fell they all by the sword.

Wrong. Their enemies were other nations that God in the OT and even in the NT that were enemies of Israel.

And the slaughtered Jews by the thousands.
Eze:39:24:
According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
He handed them over because of sin.
Eze:39:25:
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD;
Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob,
and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel,
and will be jealous for my holy name;
Again they will be a conquered nation in the hands of other nations.

Exactly what happens in the 2nd Half of the Trib where 2/3 of the Jews are killed.
Eze:39:26:
After that they have borne their shame,
and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me,
when they dwelt safely in their land,
and none made them afraid.
At the Second Coming those left will turn to Christ.
Eze:39:27:
When I have brought them again from the people,
and gathered them out of their enemies' lands,
and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
At the Second Coming the the 144,000 and others living in other nations will be gathered back to Israel and to Christ.

Very much alive. Never died. Not resurrected.

[MHz]

OK. I don't want to be wrong here in what I thought you have said.
OK

What I read implied every Jews that has lived will be resurrected and live in Israel.
Yes, thats what I think it says (whole being everybody born since Jocob and those in vs;16);
Eze:39:25: Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

Eze:37:16: Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:

Now, keeping with that thought not every Jew who ever lived will resurrect to Eternal Life. The majority will resurrect to the White Throne Judgment and the Second Death. And will not live on the earth again.
This would be less than whole house.

Plus, it is not clear every OT Jews will come with Christ in the Second Coming. In fact, I am not sure any will come.
The spirit of breath for all who will be alive for the thousand will be there, so with the breath of lfe return to those who are destined for hell. It is possible that there are some who are left in death (a more restfull place than hell) for the thousand years.

I see the Bride stated as coming. Only the Bride.

No 12 or more legions of Angles?
M't:26:53: Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

No 24 Elders?
Re:5:10: And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

I see the 24 Elders before the Throne of the Father as the Wife of God, not the Bride of Christ.
Maybe. They could also be the 24 oldest lived people (all pre-flood or at least most of them)

So the Jewish saints seem to have a place in Heaven before the Father. Not coming back to the earth.

The 24 reign on Earth, I just assumed they do not have to wait until the New Earth to do so.

Not positive on that point. My 100% positive on the saved Jews will resurrect in the First Resurrection with the remainder in the Second.

I see them all being given a new heart right at the get go, same with any Gentiles that are dead and should be alive for the MK.

If you don't believe every Jews who has lived will resurrect, please correct me.
Yes they do all get resurrected, all their sins are forgiven right at this time, they can't see hell , only Gentiles see that place. To keep the Jews from taking advantage of this promise there is a place in Heaven when you are considered the 'least';

M't:5:19:
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments,
and shall teach men so,
he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:
but whosoever shall do and teach them,
the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Same state? No.

Only in that they can 'talk to Christ or vice-versa', like the Apostles were after the cross when they were baptised with the Holy Spirit.

OT saints and the Apostles are very dead and in the spirit in Heaven.

Yep, dust, spirit of life back with God, same as it for all who had the breath and gave up the ghost.

The 144,000 are very much in the flesh and on the earth.
Yep

The 144,000 are neither dead nor in Heaven in the Trib.
Yep, neither.

Wrong. Their enemies were other nations that God in the OT and even in the NT that were enemies of Israel.
Who doesn't have enemies? We only have one common one though.
And the slaughtered Jews by the thousands.

He handed them over because of sin.

Scripture uses several different words but sin covers it all I believe.

Again they will be a conquered nation in the hands of other nations.

When they're gathered this time they will finally get to catch fish in the dead sea as that water is healed real close after the Earth is claimed by Christ.


Exactly what happens in the 2nd Half of the Trib where 2/3 of the Jews are killed.

Don't know the details, probably the same as you have for the saints during this same time.

At the Second Coming those left will turn to Christ.
Yep, the blindness about who He is is lifted for sure by this time for anybody from the 12 tribes.

At the Second Coming the the 144,000 and others living in other nations will be gathered back to Israel and to Christ.

And then the survivers of the Nations come streaming in for a , what will become a yearly, celebration. As good guests they go back to the nations after the celebrations for the remainder of the year.

Very much alive. Never died. Not resurrected.

Yep, yep, and yep.

Later.

[CoreIssue]

Quote:
What I read implied every Jews that has lived will be resurrected and live in Israel.
Yes, thats what I think it says (whole being everybody born since Jocob and those in vs;16);
No. Not every Jew born since then was a saint. Not all are saved. Not all will be in the First Resurrection.
Do you realize you are saying every Jew is saved simply for being a Jew?
Eze:39:25: Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

Eze:37:16: Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
National Israel. Not every Jew.
The Two Houses are joined into one nation again. And that nation will have under the New Covenant to the Houses of Israel and Judah in the MK.
OT Israel is not under that covenant.
Not one word of every Jew resurrected. Not one word of every Jew in the MK being saved.
In fact in prophecies about the MK it states not everyone will be saved.

Quote:
Now, keeping with that thought not every Jew who ever lived will resurrect to Eternal Life. The majority will resurrect to the White Throne Judgment and the Second Death. And will not live on the earth again.
This would be less than whole house.
Mercy, not salvation, upon the whole living house. Not the dead of the house.
We know for fact that not every Jew at the time of Jesus was saved. We know as fact Israel turned its back on God, meaning they were not saved.

Quote:
Plus, it is not clear every OT Jews will come with Christ in the Second Coming. In fact, I am not sure any will come.
The spirit of breath for all who will be alive for the thousand will be there, so with the breath of lfe return to those who are destined for hell. It is possible that there are some who are left in death (a more restfull place than hell) for the thousand years.
Only saints are resurrected in the First Resurrection.

The Second Resurrection is for the damned and does not happen untl after this earth is destoyed, which is after the MK.

And no. The damned Jews will be in Hell.


Quote:
I see the Bride stated as coming. Only the Bride.

No 12 or more legions of Angles?
Angels are not human.

The issue was the resurrected, which angels are not.

No 24 Elders?
Re:5:10: And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

No Elders. They are OT Israel before the Throne of God.

Another bad translation by the KJV.

"You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased men for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth."
Right off the 4 Living are not humans. So us is out the window.

Next, it says God, not Christ.

God does not rule on the earth until the New Earth.

At the Second Coming only the Bride is mentioned. They are with Christ. The OT 24, in example, are shown before the Father.


Quote:
I see the 24 Elders before the Throne of the Father as the Wife of God, not the Bride of Christ.
Maybe. They could also be the 24 oldest lived people (all pre-flood or at least most of them)
No. The 24 Elders are defined in the Bible. The 24 Elders from the 24 divisions of Israel serving in the Temple.

You see them dressed in Heaven as they were in the Temple.


Quote:
So the Jewish saints seem to have a place in Heaven before the Father. Not coming back to the earth.

The 24 reign on Earth, I just assumed they do not have to wait until the New Earth to do so.
They have to wait.

Before God. Not with Christ.


Quote:
Not positive on that point. My 100% positive on the saved Jews will resurrect in the First Resurrection with the remainder in the Second.

I see them all being given a new heart right at the get go, same with any Gentiles that are dead and should be alive for the MK.
You are talking salvation after death. Universal Salvation for Jews.

Not Biblical.


Quote:
If you don't believe every Jews who has lived will resurrect, please correct me.
Yes they do all get resurrected, all their sins are forgiven right at this time, they can't see hell , only Gentiles see that place. To keep the Jews from taking advantage of this promise there is a place in Heaven when you are considered the 'least';
Only Gentiles can go to Hell? Salvation without repentence.

Even Judas is saved?

MHz, this is so non Biblical it is shocking.

M't:5:19:
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments,
and shall teach men so,
he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:
but whosoever shall do and teach them,
the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Only applies to saints.

You have unrepentent people being saved. Ain't going to happen.


Quote:
Same state? No.

Only in that they can 'talk to Christ or vice-versa', like the Apostles were after the cross when they were baptised with the Holy Spirit.
But the dead are dead and the living are living.




Quote:
OT saints and the Apostles are very dead and in the spirit in Heaven.

Yep, dust, spirit of life back with God, same as it for all who had the breath and gave up the ghost.

Only for saints in the context used.


Quote:
The 144,000 are very much in the flesh and on the earth.
Yep
OK

Quote:
The 144,000 are neither dead nor in Heaven in the Trib.
Yep, neither.
OK.




Quote:
Wrong. Their enemies were other nations that God in the OT and even in the NT that were enemies of Israel.
Who doesn't have enemies? We only have one common one though.
But not the context used in the passage.

Stay in context.


Quote:
And the slaughtered Jews by the thousands.


Quote:
He handed them over because of sin.

Scripture uses several different words but sin covers it all I believe.
No.

It says God hands over the Trib saints to Satan. And he slaughters them in droves.


Quote:
Again they will be a conquered nation in the hands of other nations.

When they're gathered this time they will finally get to catch fish in the dead sea as that water is healed real close after the Earth is claimed by Christ.
You are talking MK there. The context is during the Trib for being conquered.

Quote:

Exactly what happens in the 2nd Half of the Trib where 2/3 of the Jews are killed.

Don't know the details, probably the same as you have for the saints during this same time.
Spelled out real clear. The 2/3 follow the AC and he slaughters them.




Quote:
At the Second Coming those left will turn to Christ.
Yep, the blindness about who He is is lifted for sure by this time for anybody from the 12 tribes.
For those who survive, yes.


Quote:
At the Second Coming the the 144,000 and others living in other nations will be gathered back to Israel and to Christ.

And then the survivers of the Nations come streaming in for a , what will become a yearly, celebration. As good guests they go back to the nations after the celebrations for the remainder of the year.
The gathered Jews stay in Israel.

Quote:
Very much alive. Never died. Not resurrected.

Yep, yep, and yep.

Later.
Later

[MHz]

Hi Core,
"Only Gentiles can go to Hell? Salvation without repentence.

Even Judas is saved?

MHz, this is so non Biblical it is shocking."

We haven't yet talked about unforgivable sins and who this includes.

Technically Judas did everything Jesus said to do to have sins forgiven, when the devil left him, he repented his sin. Not my call on how effective that is going to be.

On the same note, the ones who call Christ Lord and do not follow the instructions are supposed to end up in the Lake of Fire, I would think that will be more than just one.

Does this sound less shocking?

Israel is redeemed in full not because of themselves, it is done to convince the nations to join Him;

Eze:36:22:
Therefore say unto the house of Israel,
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
I do not this for your sakes,
O house of Israel,
but for mine holy name's sake,
which ye have profaned among the heathen,
whither ye went.
Eze:36:23:
And I will sanctify my great name,
which was profaned among the heathen,
which ye have profaned in the midst of them;
and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD,
saith the Lord GOD,
when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
Eze:36:24:
For I will take you from among the heathen,
and gather you out of all countries,
and will bring you into your own land.
Eze:36:25:
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you,
and ye shall be clean:
from all your filthiness,
and from all your idols,
will I cleanse you.
Eze:36:26:
A new heart also will I give you,
and a new spirit will I put within you:
and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh,
and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze:36:27:
And I will put my spirit within you,
and cause you to walk in my statutes,
and ye shall keep my judgments,
and do them.
Eze:36:28:
And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers;
and ye shall be my people,
and I will be your God.
Eze:36:29:
I will also save you from all your uncleannesses:
and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
Eze:36:30: And I will multiply
the fruit of the tree,
and the increase of the field,
that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.
Eze:36:31:
Then shall ye remember your own evil ways,
and your doings that were not good,
and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
Eze:36:32:
Not for your sakes do I this,
saith the Lord GOD,
be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways,
O house of Israel.
Eze:36:33:
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities,
and the wastes shall be builded.
Eze:36:34:
And the desolate land shall be tilled,
whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.
Eze:36:35:
And they shall say,
This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden;
and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced,
and are inhabited.
Eze:36:36:
Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places,
and plant that that was desolate:
I the LORD have spoken it,
and I will do it.
Eze:36:37:
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
I will yet for this be enquired of by the house of Israel,
to do it for them;
I will increase them with men like a flock.
Eze:36:38:
As the holy flock,
as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts;
so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men:
and they shall know that I am the LORD.

I'll try to catch it all up tomorrow, if not all then later.

[CoreIssue]

Hey MHz,

We are doing it again. Going off topic.

We need to stick to the 144,000 and put the other in another thread. Please start another one.

So, to get back on the correct topic I will restate my position for this thread. Please restate yours.
1. The 144,000 are the First Fruits of the New Covenant to the Houses of Israel and Judah.
2. They are sealed and go into seclusion for 1,260 days.
3. They do not evanglize or any such thing.
4. They are gathered to Christ at Jerusalem at the Second Coming.
5. They are the First Fruits of the MK, meaning the chief and first chosen from each Tribe for the Tribal functions in the MK.

[MHz]

Hey MHz,

We are doing it again. Going off topic.

We need to stick to the 144,000 and put the other in another thread. Please start another one.

So, to get back on the correct topic I will restate my position for this thread. Please restate yours.
1. The 144,000 are the First Fruits of the New Covenant to the Houses of Israel and Judah.
2. They are sealed and go into seclusion for 1,260 days.
3. They do not evanglize or any such thing.
4. They are gathered to Christ at Jerusalem at the Second Coming.
5. They are the First Fruits of the MK, meaning the chief and first chosen from each Tribe for the Tribal functions in the MK.

What you said pretty much covers the main points. I agree with all of them.

[CoreIssue]

:jaw[1]: We agree?

Wow! Nice for a change.:D

[MHz]

I was going to let your post be the last, but after your rant in the other one I would like to add something.

We were never in conflict on this issue, we have always been in agreement on this.

[CoreIssue]

Good. Agreement is good.

And it wasn't a rant. Just stating some facts.

And the Pre-Trib comments were based on what you said a space of time ago.

Glad that position has softened, or was maybe too strongly said before.

:D

[MHz]

Good. Agreement is good.
And it wasn't a rant. Just stating some facts.
And the Pre-Trib comments were based on what you said a space of time ago.
Glad that position has softened, or was maybe too strongly said before.

How many of your own 'guidelines about staying on topic' did you violate in that post? Face it, it was a rant, I've had a few in my life so it is quite easy to spot, heck I even admit it at the end of the rant. Not a real big deal really. A pause from the subject is usually required though and in all fairness our conversations are quite intense compared to most of the threads I read on the sites I visit. We have covered some new ground so that's good.

Softened in that I truthfully do not know what will happen in that 1/2 hour, if it linked to another event then I am in error. That wouldn't change the fate of those who are faithfull when the trib starts nor the 'quality of the protection' of those who turn to Christ during the trib.

I called it assbackwards before and it is backwards thinking. Christ doesn't remove the righteous from what is to be His kingdom soon, would He leave them alone to go through having Satan with them, not a chance, that is what prayer is there for. Even if it was no more help than He gave the Apostles that would be enough to kill all fear of death. The remnant of the nations live through it, this could be a huge number and it gets even bigger at Judgement Day for the Nations. He removes the ones that offend Him and have troubled His people, once and for all time. Should these live again it will be because they have been given a new heart, the one they should have had.

[CoreIssue]

Neither of us are doing a good job staying on topic. Admitted.

No need to duplicate subjects in multiple topics, which you are doing here.

Said another way, let this one die and discuss them there.