AC Versus Two Witnesses MHz Split Off

[MHz]

I would like to be sure when the two witnesses die. It is 3 1/2 days before the end of the second woe. This would also be the end of Satan's 42 months because the next woe is the vials which are poured out on the wicked at the sound of the 7th trump.

Is this the same as you see it?

[CoreIssue]

I would like to be sure when the two witnesses die. It is 3 1/2 days before the end of the second woe. This would also be the end of Satan's 42 months because the next woe is the vials which are poured out on the wicked at the sound of the 7th trump.

Is this the same as you see it?
No. They have a full 42 months ministryand die at the end of it at Mid.

No way you can make your 3.5 year Trib fit.

And no. It is not at the end of Satan's 42 months. They die at its very beginning.

And no. There is no way their 42 months where the Gentiles have the outer court and the Jews and Two Witnesses have the Inner can be reconciled with Satan's 42 months where he has all the Temple. Just cannot be done.

The Trib is 7 years. It is impossible to reconcile the time demands with any other length of time.

[MHz]

No. They have a full 42 months ministryand die at the end of it at Mid.

No way you can make your 3.5 year Trib fit.

And no. It is not at the end of Satan's 42 months. They die at its very beginning.

And no. There is no way their 42 months where the Gentiles have the outer court and the Jews and Two Witnesses have the Inner can be reconciled with Satan's 42 months where he has all the Temple. Just cannot be done.

The Trib is 7 years. It is impossible to reconcile the time demands with any other length of time.

All I was asking is if their resurrection is at the end of the second woe, this seems to be what Scripture is saying.

[CoreIssue]

All I was asking is if their resurrection is at the end of the second woe, this seems to be what Scripture is saying.
Well, you did say:

I would like to be sure when the two witnesses die. It is 3 1/2 days before the end of the second woe.

It isn't. The Second Woe does not extend multiple days. It is the rising of the demon of the False Prophet from the Pit at Mid Trib.

And no. Their resurrection is not at the end of the Second Woe. It is actually 3.5 days after the end of the Third Woe and 3.5 days into the Second Half of the Trib. Which takes place during the 7th Trumpet.

Not the 7th Trumpet but during the 7th Trumpet.

[CoreIssue]

Just adding some details since you are trying to fit it into a 3.5 year time frame.

The time of the Two Witnesses is 1,260 days. Not 1,256.5 days.

Revelation 11
3And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."

While there the Gentiles and AC are not in the Inner Temple.

Revelation 11
1I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. 2But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."

So, we have a firm 1,260 days here.
They are killed after their ministry is complete.

Revelation 11
7Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.

Then the lay in the street for 3.5 days.

Revelation 11
8Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. 9For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. 10The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.
11But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

Now we have a total of 1,264.5 days. Which already exceeds your 3.5 year Trib.
The demon of the false prophet rises in the 2nd Woe which is contained in the 6th Trumpet. Which means the 7th Trumpet and the Woes are yet to occur.

In the 7th Trumpet is the 3rd Woe in which the empowers the False Trinity for 42 months.

1,260 days plus 42 months is 7 years. Not 3.5.

The Two Witnesses resurrect 3.5 days into the Second Half of the Trib on day 1,264.5.

It is beyond dispute that 3.5 years for the Trib will not work.

[MHz]

It isn't. The Second Woe does not extend multiple days. It is the rising of the demon of the False Prophet from the Pit at Mid Trib.

And no. Their resurrection is not at the end of the Second Woe. It is actually 3.5 days after the end of the Third Woe and 3.5 days into the Second Half of the Trib. Which takes place during the 7th Trumpet.

Not the 7th Trumpet but during the 7th Trumpet.

Re:11:11:
And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them,
and they stood upon their feet;
and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Re:11:12:
And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them,
Come up hither.
And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud;
and their enemies beheld them.
Re:11:13:
And the same hour was there a great earthquake,
and the tenth part of the city fell,
and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand:
and the remnant were affrighted,
and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Re:11:14:
The second woe is past;
and,
behold,
the third woe cometh quickly.

If the next woe is a result of the 7th trump sounding, this would seem to indicated the 5th and 6th have already sounded and events associated with them have been fullfilled.

[MHz]

The time of the Two Witnesses is 1,260 days. Not 1,256.5 days.
I agree with this.

So, we have a firm 1,260 days here.
They are killed after their ministry is complete.
Then the lay in the street for 3.5 days.
Now we have a total of 1,264.5 days. Which already exceeds your 3.5 year Trib.

It's 1,263.5, which is still over.

The demon of the false prophet rises in the 2nd Woe which is contained in the 6th Trumpet. Which means the 7th Trumpet and the Woes are yet to occur.

Is that trump in the next verse;
Re:11:15: And the seventh angel sounded; .....

In the 7th Trumpet is the 3rd Woe in which the empowers the False Trinity for 42 months.

If the 7th is the one in Re:11:15 this doesn't seem to be a time the false trinity is going to be able to function;

......and there were great voices in heaven,
saying,
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord,
and of his Christ;
and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Do you see how/why I find this worth discussing?

1,260 days plus 42 months is 7 years. Not 3.5.

That math works for me. Are the 144,000 sealed the same day the two witnesses die?

The Two Witnesses resurrect 3.5 days into the Second Half of the Trib on day 1,264.5.

Do you see the two witnesses being in Jerusalem for the whole 1260 days?
Of the three that end up in the Lake of Fire which one is active on the same day the witnesses are empowered (day 1 for the two)?

It is beyond dispute that 3.5 years for the Trib will not work.

If I could find the emoticons I would post one here. LOL

[CoreIssue]

If the next woe is a result of the 7th trump sounding, this would seem to indicated the 5th and 6th have already sounded and events associated with them have been fullfilled.
The Trumpets are not the Woes. The Woes are in the Trumpets.

And there is no requirement any where that each Trumpet must complete before the next can sound.

In fact, it is impossible for that to be required.

1,260 days of Two Witnesses +
5 months of 5th Trumpet +
42 months of the False Trinity =

way over 7 years.

But there must be 1,260 days before the 6th Trumpet and there must be 42 months after the 3rd Woe.

[CoreIssue]

Quote:
1,260 days plus 42 months is 7 years. Not 3.5.

That math works for me. Are the 144,000 sealed the same day the two witnesses die?

Your math is in error. You take 3.5 days away from their stated ministry time. That violates the Biblically stated time.

No. The 144,000 are sealed day 1,260 and the Two die on day 1,261.


Quote:
The Two Witnesses resurrect 3.5 days into the Second Half of the Trib on day 1,264.5.

Do you see the two witnesses being in Jerusalem for the whole 1260 days?
Of the three that end up in the Lake of Fire which one is active on the same day the witnesses are empowered (day 1 for the two)?

Yes. They are in sackcloth at the Temple.

And only the AC is active when the Two Witnesses appear at the time of the Rapture and First Seal, which is the AC.

Quote:
It is beyond dispute that 3.5 years for the Trib will not work.

If I could find the emoticons I would post one here. LOL
Switch to the Full Wysiwyg editor and you will find them.

But post a laugh smilie does not change the fact you are changing Biblically stated time frames.

3.5 years of Two Witnesses and the 42 months of the empowered False Trinity cannot coexist by the conditions stated in Revelation. Impossible.

And the simple fact the ministry of the Two Witnesses plus their 3.5 days dead in the street of Jerusalem exceeds 3.5 years. Simple math.

[CoreIssue]

Hi MHz,

Please explain how 1,260 days of ministry plus 3.5 days laying in the street equal 3.5 years. Other issues aside.

[MHz]

Hi Core,
Please explain how 1,260 days of ministry plus 3.5 days laying in the street equal 3.5 years. Other issues aside.
The 3.5 years are based on Satan's 42 months. The second woe is said to be over 3.5 days and a portion of one hour after they are killed. For these two times to remain intact the two witnesses would have to be empowered 3.5 days (less the portion of that hour) before the start of Satan's 42 months.
Tribulation is being under the influence of at least one of the three that end up in the Lake of Fire. The two witnesses don't bother anybody who is not trying to bother them.

Your math is in error. You take 3.5 days away from their stated ministry time. That violates the Biblically stated time.
Hopefully the above addressed this.

The 144,000 are sealed day 1,260 and the Two die on day 1,261.
Why wouldn't the day they die on be counted as one or the other. If they died at evening the previous hours of the day would be their 1260th. If they died in the morning the rest of that day should be counted as their first day dead. The day Jesus died on the cross was counted as one of the 3 days He was to be in the grave.

And only the AC is active when the Two Witnesses appear at the time of the Rapture and First Seal, which is the AC.

The AC goes to the Lake of Fire right?


Switch to the Full Wysiwyg editor and you will find them.

Okay, thanks. :nod:

3.5 years of Two Witnesses and the 42 months of the empowered False Trinity cannot coexist by the conditions stated in Revelation. Impossible.

And the simple fact the ministry of the Two Witnesses plus their 3.5 days dead in the street of Jerusalem exceeds 3.5 years. Simple math.

This would mean the 3rd woe lasts a full 3.5 years minus 3.5 (or 4.5)days right?
If the third woe are the vials (or bowls) how long after the earthquake that kills 7,000 (3.5 days and a portion of an hour after the two witnesses are killed) does this occur? Scripture says the 3rd follows quickly.

[CoreIssue]

Hi Core,

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreIssue
Please explain how 1,260 days of ministry plus 3.5 days laying in the street equal 3.5 years. Other issues aside.

The 3.5 years are based on Satan's 42 months. The second woe is said to be over 3.5 days and a portion of one hour after they are killed. For these two times to remain intact the two witnesses would have to be empowered 3.5 days (less the portion of that hour) before the start of Satan's 42 months.
Tribulation is being under the influence of at least one of the three that end up in the Lake of Fire. The two witnesses don't bother anybody who is not trying to bother them.
Even claiming a 3.5 year Trib you just made the Trib 3.5 and 3.5 days long.

Nowhere does it say the 2nd Woe is over 3.5 days. The 2nd Woe is the ascent of the demon of the False Prophet. Nothing more.

And as explained before, it is impossible for the Two and the 42 months to coexist.

The AC is there from the First Seal/Rapture/appearance of the Two. Just not in Israel, which he does not invade until Mid Trib.
Quote:

Your math is in error. You take 3.5 days away from their stated ministry time. That violates the Biblically stated time.
Hopefully the above addressed this.
It does not. You are still violating stated times.


Quote:
The 144,000 are sealed day 1,260 and the Two die on day 1,261.
Why wouldn't the day they die on be counted as one or the other. If they died at evening the previous hours of the day would be their 1260th. If they died in the morning the rest of that day should be counted as their first day dead. The day Jesus died on the cross was counted as one of the 3 days He was to be in the grave.

Because there is a qualifier here. That being they die after the completion of their ministry. Meaning the full 1,260 days.

Even then you still push over 3.5 years. No way around it.


Quote:
And only the AC is active when the Two Witnesses appear at the time of the Rapture and First Seal, which is the AC.

[quote]The AC goes to the Lake of Fire right?
Yes. After his full 7 years.


Quote:
3.5 years of Two Witnesses and the 42 months of the empowered False Trinity cannot coexist by the conditions stated in Revelation. Impossible.

And the simple fact the ministry of the Two Witnesses plus their 3.5 days dead in the street of Jerusalem exceeds 3.5 years. Simple math.

This would mean the 3rd woe lasts a full 3.5 years minus 3.5 (or 4.5)days right?
If the third woe are the vials (or bowls) how long after the earthquake that kills 7,000 (3.5 days and a portion of an hour after the two witnesses are killed) does this occur? Scripture says the 3rd follows quickly.
No. The Third Woe is only the ascent of the False Prophet. Not the full Trumpet.
No. The Third Woe is not the Bowls. They are their own events following the Trumpets.
And the Bowls last 3.5 years in total.

[MHz]

Hi Core,
Nowhere does it say the 2nd Woe is over 3.5 days. The 2nd Woe is the ascent of the demon of the False Prophet. Nothing more.

The AC is there from the First Seal/Rapture/appearance of the Two. Just not in Israel, which he does not invade until Mid Trib.

From my understanding of the text given in Revelations for the 3 woes it would seem that each woe is ushered in by the sound of a trump, 1st woe by the 5th trump, 2nd woe by the 6th trump, 3rd woe by the 7th trump. The ends of the first two woes are marked by the sound of the next trump after the one that marks their start, the end of the 3rd woe would be when the effects of the 7th bowl are completed;

Re:8:13:
And I beheld,
and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven,
saying with a loud voice,
Woe,
woe,
woe,
to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels,
which are yet to sound!

Re:12:12:
Therefore rejoice,
ye heavens,
and ye that dwell in them.
Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea!
for the devil is come down unto you,
having great wrath,
because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

It would seem like from the sounding of the fifth trump untill the sounding of the sixth there is a time period of five months that pass;

Re:9:1:
And the fifth angel sounded,
and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth:
and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Re:9:5:
And to them it was given that they should not kill them,
but that they should be tormented five months:
and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion,
when he striketh a man.

Re:9:12:
One woe is past;
and,
behold,
there come two woes more hereafter.
Re:9:13:
And the sixth angel sounded,
and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

Wouldn't this last verse mark the start of the second woe? From the number given of the amount of men that die I would have to say it would certainly seem to qualify as a woe for 'the inhabiters of the earth'. We aren't given a time limit for this other than it ends just before the sound of the 7th trump. The seventh trump marks the start of the third and last woe;

Re:11:15:
And the seventh angel sounded;
and there were great voices in heaven,
saying,
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord,
and of his Christ;
and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Re:10:7:
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel,
when he shall begin to sound,
the mystery of God should be finished,
as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Inhabiters of the Earth would include all men, righteous and wicked. The first two woes would put the righteous at risk but not exclude the wicked (the 1st woe affects everybody not sealed, the 144,000 and the two witnesses would not feel any effects from this woe and only the two witnesses are affected by the second woe but only 3.5 days before the end of this woe).
The third woe also affects the inhabiters of the Earth but only the wicked are affected, the righteous are not touched by this last woe even though they would seem to be around to witness this. In the verse below if there was a righteous person and a wicked person standing within sight of each other it would only be the wicked one that was being hit by the hailstones;

Re:16:21:
And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven,
every stone about the weight of a talent:
and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail;
for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

If the AC is not in Jerusalem untill the two witnesses are killed who is trying to attack them for the 1260 days?

Out of the two choices below who is the AC?

Re:19:20:
And the beast was taken,
and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him,
with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast,
and them that worshipped his image.
These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


Because there is a qualifier here. That being they die after the completion of their ministry. Meaning the full 1,260 days.
I agree that they have their 1260 days, why is their day of death not counted as the first of the 3.5 days they lay dead?

Even then you still push over 3.5 years. No way around it.
Would you agree that Satan's 42 months will be a time of tribulation for believers?
Would you agree that the day the Lord returns will be tribulation for the wicked, but not believers?

And only the AC is active when the Two Witnesses appear at the time of the Rapture and First Seal, which is the AC.
Yes. After his full 7 years.
I'll start a new thread for this subject.

The Third Woe is only the ascent of the False Prophet. Not the full Trumpet.
No. The Third Woe is not the Bowls. They are their own events following the Trumpets.
And the Bowls last 3.5 years in total.

What verse states the third woe is this, the way I read Scripture the sound of the seventh trump (the 3rd woe) is Christ taking control;

Re:11:15:
And the seventh angel sounded;
and there were great voices in heaven,
saying,
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord,
and of his Christ;
and he shall reign for ever and ever.

I assume you would agree that these bowls contain the plagues mentioned in the verses below;

Re:15:1:
And I saw another sign in heaven,
great and marvellous,
seven angels having the seven last plagues;
for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Re:15:6:
And the seven angels came out of the temple,
having the seven plagues,
clothed in pure and white linen,
and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

Re:15:8:
And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God,
and from his power;
and no man was able to enter into the temple,
till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

It seems to indicate each bowl is one plague in that the seventh plague does not start untill the seventh bowl is started to be poured.

Scripture gives a time-frame that would seem to include all seven bowls;

Re:18:8:
Therefore shall her plagues come in one day,
death,
and mourning,
and famine;
and she shall be utterly burned with fire:
for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

This one day seems to be supported by OT prophecy;

Isa:10:17:
And the light of Israel shall be for a fire,
and his Holy One for a flame:
and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;
Isa:10:18:
And shall consume the glory of his forest,
and of his fruitful field,
both soul and body:
and they shall be as when a standardbearer fainteth.
Isa:10:19:
And the rest of the trees of his forest shall be few,
that a child may write them.
Isa:10:20:
And it shall come to pass in that day,
that the remnant of Israel,
and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob,
shall no more again stay upon him that smote them;
but shall stay upon the LORD,
the Holy One of Israel,
in truth.
Isa:10:21:
The remnant shall return,
even the remnant of Jacob,
unto the mighty God.

Zec:3:9:
For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua;
upon one stone shall be seven eyes:
behold,
I will engrave the graving thereof,
saith the LORD of hosts,
and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
Zec:3:10:
In that day,
saith the LORD of hosts,
shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.


Zec:14:3:
Then shall the LORD go forth,
and fight against those nations,
as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec:14:4:
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives,
which is before Jerusalem on the east,
and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west,
and there shall be a very great valley;
and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north,
and half of it toward the south.
Zec:14:5:
And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains;
for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal:
yea,
ye shall flee,
like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come,
and all the saints with thee.
Zec:14:6:
And it shall come to pass in that day,
that the light shall not be clear,
nor dark:
Zec:14:7:
But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD,
not day,
nor night:
but it shall come to pass,
that at evening time it shall be light.
Zec:14:8:
And it shall be in that day,
that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem;
half of them toward the former sea,
and half of them toward the hinder sea:
in summer and in winter shall it be.
Zec:14:9:
And the LORD shall be king over all the earth:
in that day shall there be one LORD,
and his name one.


The whole book of Zephaniah seems to deal with this one day;

Zep:1:2:
I will utterly consume all things from off the land,
saith the LORD.
Zep:1:3:
I will consume man and beast;
I will consume the fowls of the heaven,
and the fishes of the sea,
and the stumblingblocks with the wicked;
and I will cut off man from off the land,
saith the LORD.

Zep:1:15:
That day is a day of wrath,
a day of trouble and distress,
a day of wasteness and desolation,
a day of darkness and gloominess,
a day of clouds and thick darkness,
Zep:1:16:
A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities,
and against the high towers.

Zep:1:18:
Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath;
but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy:
for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

[CoreIssue]

Hi MHz,

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreIssue
Nowhere does it say the 2nd Woe is over 3.5 days. The 2nd Woe is the ascent of the demon of the False Prophet. Nothing more.

The AC is there from the First Seal/Rapture/appearance of the Two. Just not in Israel, which he does not invade until Mid Trib.


From my understanding of the text given in Revelations for the 3 woes it would seem that each woe is ushered in by the sound of a trump, 1st woe by the 5th trump, 2nd woe by the 6th trump, 3rd woe by the 7th trump. The ends of the first two woes are marked by the sound of the next trump after the one that marks their start, the end of the 3rd woe would be when the effects of the 7th bowl are completed;
It does not say anywhere the Woe ends at the next Trumpet. It simply states the Woe is done. And it does not identify the Woe as the full Trumpet anywhere.

Cannot be. You cannot make the Woes quickly back to back nor maintain either a 3.5 or 7 year Trib by trying to make it so.

Cannot be done.
1,260 days before the 2nd Woe and 42 months after the 3rd. You just keep disregarding the 7 year demand here with all Woes on one day.

Re:8:13:
And I beheld,
and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven,
saying with a loud voice,
Woe,
woe,
woe,
to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels,
which are yet to sound!
Does not say the full Trumpet is the Woe. Says the Woes will occur at the sound of the Trumpets. No more.
Re:12:12:
Therefore rejoice,
ye heavens,
and ye that dwell in them.
Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea!
for the devil is come down unto you,
having great wrath,
because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

It would seem like from the sounding of the fifth trump untill the sounding of the sixth there is a time period of five months that pass;
Does not even hint at that being the Woe. John states Satan being cast down is the Woe.

Satan remains until the Second Coming. So this line of reasoning does not work because it would make the Woe 3.5 years long. It is not and cannot be by other time demands.

Re:9:1:
And the fifth angel sounded,
and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth:
and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Satan cast down. The 1st Woe.
Re:9:5:
And to them it was given that they should not kill them,
but that they should be tormented five months:
and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion,
when he striketh a man.

Not a Woe.
Re:9:12:
One woe is past;
and,
behold,
there come two woes more hereafter.
And they come quickly. 5 months is not quickly.
Re:9:13:
And the sixth angel sounded,
and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

Wouldn't this last verse mark the start of the second woe? From the number given of the amount of men that die I would have to say it would certainly seem to qualify as a woe for 'the inhabiters of the earth'. We aren't given a time limit for this other than it ends just before the sound of the 7th trump. The seventh trump marks the start of the third and last woe;

John state Satan being cast down is the Woe. Only Satan being cast down.

And by your logic with the 42 months coming after the 3rd Woe you are still way past 3.5 years total.

The Trumpets in full are not Woes. They only contain a Woe each with no demand a Trumpet finishes in full before the next sounds.

No matter how you argue this you cannot make the times stated work for either 3.5 years or 7 as you are approaching the Woes. Impossible.
Re:11:15:
And the seventh angel sounded;
and there were great voices in heaven,
saying,
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord,
and of his Christ;
and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Not the Second Coming. There is a full 42 months after this of the Trib.

Re:10:7:
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel,
when he shall begin to sound,
the mystery of God should be finished,
as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Inhabiters of the Earth would include all men, righteous and wicked. The first two woes would put the righteous at risk but not exclude the wicked (the 1st woe affects everybody not sealed, the 144,000 and the two witnesses would not feel any effects from this woe and only the two witnesses are affected by the second woe but only 3.5 days before the end of this woe).

No. You are again distorting time lines in a way you cannot reconcile.

The Woe is not 3.5 days long. It is not the full Trumpet. Cannot be.
The third woe also affects the inhabiters of the Earth but only the wicked are affected, the righteous are not touched by this last woe even though they would seem to be around to witness this. In the verse below if there was a righteous person and a wicked person standing within sight of each other it would only be the wicked one that was being hit by the hailstones;

The righteous besides the Woman die in droves in the 42 months. They die in the First Half of the Trib as well.

Not a hint that anyone but the Woman is proteced. Daniels says the saints are turned over to Satan.
Re:16:21:
And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven,
every stone about the weight of a talent:
and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail;
for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

If the AC is not in Jerusalem untill the two witnesses are killed who is trying to attack them for the 1260 days?
The AC, God haters and others. The AC is not allowed into Israel until Mid. As stated in prophecy.

During the First Half only the Seals occur.
Out of the two choices below who is the AC?

Re:19:20:
And the beast was taken,
and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him,
with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast,
and them that worshipped his image.
These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
The AC is the First Beast. Or in this verse the Beast and the FP is the Second Beast. The Dragon is Satan.

And cast in at the Second Coming. The AC is there in the Trib from the First Seal with his demon. John tells us who that demon is. The FP is added during the First Half but first mentioned at Mid when his demon enters him. Satan enters the dragon, the statue set up in the Temple.

Read the 6th Bowl. You see the False Trinity there.


Quote:
Because there is a qualifier here. That being they die after the completion of their ministry. Meaning the full 1,260 days.
I agree that they have their 1260 days, why is their day of death not counted as the first of the 3.5 days they lay dead?
Because the cannot be harmed during their 1,260 days. They cannot be touched until day 1,261.


Quote:
Even then you still push over 3.5 years. No way around it.
Would you agree that Satan's 42 months will be a time of tribulation for believers?
As will the Trib during the First Half for the Gentile believers. Just an issue of degree.
Would you agree that the day the Lord returns will be tribulation for the wicked, but not believers?
No. It is not Trib for the wicked. It is judgment and execution for the wicked who took the sign or come to Armageddon.

Those are the ones stipulated will die. Not all non believers are stipulated to die. And no living believers are stipulated to be Raptured.


Quote:
The Third Woe is only the ascent of the False Prophet. Not the full Trumpet.
No. The Third Woe is not the Bowls. They are their own events following the Trumpets.
And the Bowls last 3.5 years in total.

What verse states the third woe is this, the way I read Scripture the sound of the seventh trump (the 3rd woe) is Christ taking control;
Sorry. My mistale. The Third Woe is only the empowering of the False Trinity. The Second Woe is the rise of the FP demon. I goofed.

I assume you would agree that these bowls contain the plagues mentioned in the verses below;

Re:15:1:
And I saw another sign in heaven,
great and marvellous,
seven angels having the seven last plagues;
for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Re:15:6:
And the seven angels came out of the temple,
having the seven plagues,
clothed in pure and white linen,
and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
Yes. But they are not part of the Woes. And they do not occur in a short time, but over 3.5 years.

Scripture gives a time-frame that would seem to include all seven bowls;

Re:18:8:
Therefore shall her plagues come in one day,
death,
and mourning,
and famine;
and she shall be utterly burned with fire:
for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

This one day seems to be supported by OT prophecy;

That is the 7th Bowl destroying Rome. Capital of the AC Empire and religion. Followed immediately by the Second Coming.
It is not all 7 bowls.
Isa:10:17-21: and the other verses you listed.

Different issue than the 7th Bowl.
Israel and Jerusalem are not Babylon. They are called Sodom and Gomorrah.
Bably is defined by Daniel and John. All laid out in the Charts in the Side Menu.

Zec:14:3-9:
Second Coming. Not the Trib.

The whole book of Zephaniah seems to deal with this one day;

Second Coming. Not the Trib.
Seal, Trumpets and Bowls are all in the 7 year Trib. You cannot move any aspect out of the Trib and you cannot fit the time line demands into anything but a 7 years Trib.

[CoreIssue]

Hey MHz,

A real simply question here for clarity. Just on one aspect of the Trib events.

Please create your time line.

1st Seal - Day 1 of Trib
Two Witnesses appear - Day 1 of Trib.
Ministry complete - day 1,260
Two Witnesses killed - day 1,261
42 months of Satan begin - day 1,261
Two Witnesses resurrect - day 1,264.5
42 months conclude - day 2,520
Second Coming - day 2,521

Right now you are totally confusing me by what you are saying on time lines.

This is real simply but will give me a better feel for where you are.

Thanks

[MHz]

Hey MHz,

A real simply question here for clarity. Just on one aspect of the Trib events.

Please create your time line.

1st Seal - Day 1 of Trib
Two Witnesses appear - Day 1 of Trib.
Ministry complete - day 1,260
Two Witnesses killed - day 1,261
42 months of Satan begin - day 1,261
Two Witnesses resurrect - day 1,264.5
42 months conclude - day 2,520
Second Coming - day 2,521

Right now you are totally confusing me by what you are saying on time lines.

This is real simply but will give me a better feel for where you are.

Thanks

Hi,

It would probably be better to do this in the Daniel thread but I can give you an outline here as it is fairly straight foreward.

The ones that are most important to this.

The 144,000 protected for 1260 days.
The two are empowered for 1260 days.
Satan is given a time of 1260 days.

These three have the end of their times end at the same time, the sound of the 7th trump.

The reason I haven't accepted what is normally taught is in these points,

Satan and the 144,000 have an over-lapping time because he chases them but cannot catch them at all in his 1260 days. The protection that they have would not be needed after the end of the his time. This means their protection starts and stops on the same days as Satans begining and ending of his alloted days.

With respect to the two witnesses,
Satans 1260 days is divided into two segments, the first segment is 5 mo in duration and it is during this time he and the beast are chasing the 144,000. The second segement of his 1260 days is where the False Prophet comes into play, this wicked one is in control of the 200mil that appear when the 6th trump is sounded and he stays in power (with Satan's behind the scenes help) until the 1260 days are up. This second segment ends when the two witnesses are resurrected.

The phase that begins at this time is the arrival of Christ because it is during the days the witnesses lay dead that the wicked one is "so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God"

I base the Witnesses and Satan as sharing the same days (within a few days) because it is stated that their resurrection and the death of 7,000 in the earthquake that occurs within one hour is the end of the second woe. That is the end of Satan's time, all his time is used up when the 7th trump sounds because this is when Christ arrives.

Since this only covers the last three trumps if the first 4 use up 3 1/2 years, great. But there is no stated time.

I'm quite familiar with the 7 year timeline, from both pre-trib, mid-trib, and post trib. So far nobody (even you my friend) has been able to explain why both the 144,000 and the two witnesses are mentioned as being in the same time as Satan. Nobody argues about the 144,000 and Satan sharing the same time just from the verse saying he is chasingt them.

When it comes to the two witnesses being killed only 3 1/2 days before the end of the second woe when it has to be that the first woe must be passed if this is the end of the second one. I can't remember if anybody has argued that Satan is not involved in the first woe (the time between the sounding of the 5th and 6th trumps.

Once we get to the 4th kingdom in the other thread I hope I can explain what I haven't included here.

These shorter posts are much easier to address than the longer ones but sometimes things cannot be explained in just a few words, hopefully we reach a balance betwix the two.

Later

PS I cover the post I missed tomorrow

[CoreIssue]

The 144,000 protected for 1260 days.
The two are empowered for 1260 days.
Satan is given a time of 1260 days.

These three have the end of their times end at the same time, the sound of the 7th trump.
That violates the Bible. It is a contradiction.

There are a number of other points this sets the Bible into contradiction with itself about. But I will focus on one point only here.


Revelation 11
3And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."

Their minisry lasts a FULL 1,260 days. No adjustments, no reductions.

7Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.

The 2nd Beast, the False Prophet demon does not rise until their ministry is complete. Right there blows your 42 months coexisting out the window since the False Prophet is not empowered until the 42 months. Nor the AC.

And he rises in the 6th Trumpet.
15The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
Then the 7th Trumpet sounds.
And in Revelation 12 we see the False Prophet rising, setting up the AoD, seeming to give life to it, but is actually Satan entering and the 42 months of power.

So your forumula does not work.

The FP does not even rise until their ministry is finished. Satan is not cast down until their ministry is finished. The 42 months does not begin until their ministry is finished.

The AC and AoD are not in the Inner Temple for the 1,260 days of the Two Witness ministry.

Revelation 11
1I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. 2But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."


The AC is not in the Temple during the 1,260 days of the Two.

But at Mid he most assuredly enters.

How do you reconcile the simply declarations of the Bible?

As in the FP does not even arise until after their 1,260 days.
The AC is not in the Temple for their 1,260 days.
The 7th Trumpet does not sound until after their ministry is finished.
The 42 months of Satan does not begin until the 7th Trumpet.

Please reconcile these clear declarations to show how they can overlap? Which does not mean jumping to other verses but dealing with the plain an clear statements of these verses.

You have the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls all out of order to each other and to themselves.

[MHz]

Hi Core,
It does not say anywhere the Woe ends at the next Trumpet. It simply states the Woe is done. And it does not identify the Woe as the full Trumpet anywhere.
Two points to consider, in two cases when it states that a woe is past the very next verse is the sounding of another trumpet. The end of the last woe is never stated as 'the third woe is passed' but there is a verse that is the very last thing associated with just the third woe;

Re:19:21:
And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse,
which sword proceeded out of his mouth:
and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

This is when all the wicked are dead, the only people alive are those who have repented.

Re:8:13: indicates that at the sounding of the next 3 trumps is associated with a woe. Is there any reason I should not consider the time from the sounding of the 5th trump until the sounding of the 6th trump as not being the first woe, what is stated to occur these two events is why this time is even considered to be a woe. 9:1 - 9:11 explains why this 5th trump is a woe. The 6th trump (2nd woe) tells us that 1/3 of mankind die. the reason this chapter doesn't state the end of this woe is because the two witnesses are included in the 1/3rd, they may even be the last of the 1/3rd.

Cannot be. You cannot make the Woes quickly back to back nor maintain either a 3.5 or 7 year Trib by trying to make it so.
How much time would you put between 9:12 & 9:13?
How about between 11:14 & 11:15?
Could the 1st woe end without the sound of the next trump? What would the time between the end of the first woe (if it stopped before the 6th trump) be like, is everybody just standing around? Or does it just go from 'bad' to 'worse' without a break? In the three different times of 1260 days (144,000, two witnesses, Satan) is there ever a break from when their time starts to when it ends?


Cannot be done.
1,260 days before the 2nd Woe and 42 months after the 3rd. You just keep disregarding the 7 year demand here with all Woes on one day.

The verse I provided states all 7 plagues (bowls or vials) are poured out in one day, the reason is even given in how this can happen 'the Lord is strong'. If one day does not mean one day what does one day mean in this case. One day would seem to be supported by the words 'speedy riddance'.

Does not say the full Trumpet is the Woe. Says the Woes will occur at the sound of the Trumpets. No more.
Just for the first one, there are about 10 verses from the sounding of the trump until it states the 1st woe is past. Should I ignore everything that is said in these 10 verses? This doesn't sound like a very wise move.

Does not even hint at that being the Woe. John states Satan being cast down is the Woe.
How would Satan being cast down and not doing anything to men be a woe? The woe, for the inhabitants, is what he does to them.

Satan remains until the Second Coming. So this line of reasoning does not work because it would make the Woe 3.5 years long. It is not and cannot be by other time demands.
The first woe only takes 5 mo off Satan's 42 months, when the 6th trump sounds he still has 37 mo left. This is how long there is from the sound of the 6th until the sound of the 7th.

Satan cast down. The 1st Woe.
Then why are there any verses between this and the verse that says the first is passed. If a woe has a starting time it also has an ending.

Not a Woe.
Re:9:12:
For any that endure this (whole time listed) I think they might say different;

Re:9:6:
And in those days shall men seek death,
and shall not find it;
and shall desire to die,
and death shall flee from them.

And they come quickly. 5 months is not quickly.
In ch 9 the word used is hereafter, ch 11 uses quickly though. Hereafter covers the second woe (and third) but this word doesn't mean the 2nd has a short duration. In ch 11, quickly 'might' indicate it has a short duration but this isn't a point I am promoting, the short duration is based on other verses.

John state Satan being cast down is the Woe. Only Satan being cast down.

If I had a carload of thugs pull up outside my house I would get concerned but I am not experiencing any woe until they get out and enter my house, that is when their presence becomes a woe.

And by your logic with the 42 months coming after the 3rd Woe you are still way past 3.5 years total.
Actually I see the 42 being before the 3rd woe. The 3rd is Christ destroying everything that is considered 'wicked'. Satan's time is tribulation, Christ time is called 'great tribulation';

M't:24:15:
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,
spoken of by Daniel the prophet,
stand in the holy place,
(whoso readeth,
let him understand:)

M't:24:21:
For then shall be great tribulation,
such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time,
no,
nor ever shall be.

The Trumpets in full are not Woes. They only contain a Woe each with no demand a Trumpet finishes in full before the next sounds.

How can a woe be a woe if there are no actions (other than an appearance) associated with it?

No matter how you argue this you cannot make the times stated work for either 3.5 years or 7 as you are approaching the Woes. Impossible.
I'm not saying all three woes fit either time, I'm saying Satan's 42 months are consumed within the sound of the 5th trump and are ended with the sound of the 7th.

Not the Second Coming. There is a full 42 months after this of the Trib.
So the words 'The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord,', 'he shall reign for ever and ever' have no meaning?

Which brings us back to that one point, the first woe must be passed at this point, this first woe uses a portion of Satan's 42 mo.

No. You are again distorting time lines in a way you cannot reconcile.

Any timeline has to have the sequence of events in their proper places, right? If it is as you say, the 7th trump is Satan's arrival, you have this event starting before the sound of the 7th trump, (from another thread "42 months of Satan begin - day 1,261"). The 7th trump isn't sounded until shortly after they are resurrected, 3 1/2 days after this.

The Woe is not 3.5 days long. It is not the full Trumpet. Cannot be.
Just the last 3 1/2 days of the time alloted to the 2nd woe. Having 1/3rd of man die is not a woe?

The righteous besides the Woman die in droves in the 42 months. They die in the First Half of the Trib as well.
Have the 1/3 died before the two witnesses die?

Not a hint that anyone but the Woman is proteced. Daniels says the saints are turned over to Satan.

Re:12:17:
And the dragon was wroth with the woman,
and went to make war with the remnant of her seed,
which keep the commandments of God,
and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Re:11:7:
And when they shall have finished their testimony,
the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them,
and shall overcome them,
and kill them.

Who else on earth but the two witnesses would qualify as saints, packing a bible around does not make you a saint, the Gentiles are outside in the courtyard and could simply be these;

Re:11:18: ... and them that fear thy name,....


The AC, God haters and others. The AC is not allowed into Israel until Mid. As stated in prophecy.
Like in these verses;

Da:11:16:
But he that cometh against him shall do according to his own will,
and none shall stand before him:
and he shall stand in the glorious land,
which by his hand shall be consumed.

Da:11:41:
He shall enter also into the glorious land,
and many countries shall be overthrown:
but these shall escape out of his hand,
even Edom,
and Moab,
and the chief of the children of Ammon.

Da:11:45:
And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain;
yet he shall come to his end,
and none shall help him.

Since this is going to be a topic where there is going to be some major objections from you let me just state this. Satan does not desire Rome, he desires Jerusalem, the Holy City, this is where he wants the False Prophet to have his seat;
2Th:2:4:
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,
or that is worshipped;
so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
shewing himself that he is God.

There is only one place on Earth where God has built a temple. I'm not trying to 'belittle' the site that is called holy, I do resist calling this city by it's holy name if it has unholy beings controlling the ground.

BTW The False Prophet comes on the scene after Satan is cast to earth and the first beast cannot be until Satan's time has started;

2Th:2:8:
And then shall that Wicked be revealed,
whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth,
and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th:2:9:
Even him,
whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th:2:10:
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish;
because they received not the love of the truth,
that they might be saved.

During the First Half only the Seals occur.
How do you account for the fire from the alter and the 1st 4 trumps, they belong to neither the seals nor Satan's time because his time only begins with the 5th trump.

The AC is the First Beast. Or in this verse the Beast and the FP is the Second Beast. The Dragon is Satan.
And who releases the beast from the pit in ch 9? All indications are this is Satan.

And cast in at the Second Coming. The AC is there in the Trib from the First Seal with his demon. John tells us who that demon is. The FP is added during the First Half but first mentioned at Mid when his demon enters him. Satan enters the dragon, the statue set up in the Temple.
Satan is the dragon.

How long do you give for the building of the image?

Re:13:14:
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast;
saying to them that dwell on the earth,
that they should make an image to the beast,
which had the wound by a sword,
and did live.

I see as being completed (ready to speak but not having spoke) when the two witnesses die.

Read the 6th Bowl. You see the False Trinity there.

It would seem that the two witnesses rise at mid-day, 6th hour. At the 7th hour is the earthquake, in one hour Babylon is burned to the ground (why destroy Rome if the wicked one is in the same city where the two witness die), even if an hour is given to the people who see this from 'afar' (to cover the distance that gets them 'afar') and another hour for the burning that takes us to the 8th or 9th. This still leaves a portion of this day. As we discussed last time, Christ died about this same time of the day and it was counted as one of His days in the grave. Under this logic the one day alloted for the plagues (plural), all of them could be poured out in the 3 remaining hours;

Zec:14:3:
Then shall the LORD go forth,
and fight against those nations,
as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec:14:4:
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives,
which is before Jerusalem on the east,
and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west,
and there shall be a very great valley;
and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north,
and half of it toward the south.
Zec:14:5:
And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains;
for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal:
yea,
ye shall flee,
like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah:
and the LORD my God shall come,
and all the saints with thee.
Zec:14:6:
And it shall come to pass in that day,
that the light shall not be clear,
nor dark:
Zec:14:7:
But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD,
not day,
nor night:
but it shall come to pass,
that at evening time it shall be light.
Zec:14:8:
And it shall be in that day,
that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem;
half of them toward the former sea,
and half of them toward the hinder sea:
in summer and in winter shall it be.
Zec:14:9:
And the LORD shall be king over all the earth:
in that day shall there be one LORD,
and his name one.

Jerusalem's fate is to be split in two.

Because the cannot be harmed during their 1,260 days. They cannot be touched until day 1,261.
Still doesn't explain why the day of their death is not counted as one of the three days (or the half) they are dead.

As will the Trib during the First Half for the Gentile believers. Just an issue of degree.
Why would you exclude Jews from this, you have their protection being active only for Satan's time? 3 1/2 years after your starting time.

No. It is not Trib for the wicked. It is judgment and execution for the wicked who took the sign or come to Armageddon.

Matthew calls this a 'great tribulation', anything before this is 'just' tribulation;

M't:24:21:
For then shall be great tribulation,
such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time,
no,
nor ever shall be.

M't:24:29:
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened,
and the moon shall not give her light,
and the stars shall fall from heaven,
and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Those are the ones stipulated will die. Not all non believers are stipulated to die. And no living believers are stipulated to be Raptured.

Actually they (non-believers) are stipulated to die, Christ does allow sinners to be alive in the thousand years;

Job:21:17:
How oft is the candle of the wicked put out!
and how oft cometh their destruction upon them!
God distributeth sorrows in his anger.
Job:21:18:
They are as stubble before the wind,
and as chaff that the storm carrieth away.

Psalms:1:3:
And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water,
that bringeth forth his fruit in his season;
his leaf also shall not wither;
and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
Psalms:1:4:
The ungodly are not so:
but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
Psalms:1:5:
Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
Psalms:1:6:
For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous:
but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Why would a believer be raptured, Christ is on Earth, they don't have to go anywhere to be with Him (other than to where He is on the Earth).

Sorry. My mistale. The Third Woe is only the empowering of the False Trinity. The Second Woe is the rise of the FP demon. I goofed.
NP, please allow for my occasional mistakes.

Yes. But they are not part of the Woes. And they do not occur in a short time, but over 3.5 years.
Since this does affect some of the 'inhabitants of the earth it is a woe.

That is the 7th Bowl destroying Rome. Capital of the AC Empire and religion. Followed immediately by the Second Coming.
It is not all 7 bowls.
Yes it is all 7. When did God ever have a temple in Rome?

Different issue than the 7th Bowl.
Israel and Jerusalem are not Babylon. They are called Sodom and Gomorrah.
Bably is defined by Daniel and John. All laid out in the Charts in the Side Menu.
If the same ground that God had His temple is where Satan sets up the image this is the city that will burn (as the way they are dispatched, nothing more). It is then rebuilt of course.

Second Coming. Not the Trib.

Defined as 'great tribulation' by Matthew.

Second Coming. Not the Trib.
Seal, Trumpets and Bowls are all in the 7 year Trib. You cannot move any aspect out of the Trib and you cannot fit the time line demands into anything but a 7 years Trib.
Defined as 'great tribulation' by Matthew.

You keep trying to fit my words into your timeline, you will find this less confusing if it is looked at as a sequence of events first and then apply time to this to see how much time it takes.

[CoreIssue]

Hi MHz,

I will withhold bogging down answer that very long last post until I see a reply to my very simple pointing out the 1,260 days of the Two are followed by the 42 months my very direct and literal verse and passage statement.

If you see the point and concede it literally states one after the other them many of the statements in the long post become moot.

Here I will simply repost the most direct verse statements on the issue.

Revelation 11

The Two Witnesses

1I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. 2But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.


3And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."


7Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

14The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.
The Seventh Trumpet

15The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

This chapter is written when the 6th Trumpet sounds.

Very clear. For 1,260 days the Two will have their ministry. During which time only the outer court belongs to the Gentiles, which includes the AC.

Then they are killed.

Then the 7th Trumpet sounds. 7th Trumpet follows 6th. And clearly stated here the 7th sounds after the 2nd Woe is complete.

And then the 42 months in the 7th Trumpet. Which I did not post but we know that is a fact.

Clearly stated on 3.5 years and then the next 3.5 years. No way to merge them into one time period by any literal reading here.

Please show me how you deal with this passage. Not jumping off to others and trying to spin meaning, which I will disagree with. I want to know how you can alter these words to something other than said.

[MHz]

That violates the Bible. It is a contradiction.
There are a number of other points this sets the Bible into contradiction with itself about. But I will focus on one point only here.
At least I have Satan existing for the 5th and 6th trumps. There cannot be any beast without Satan being on earth, I hope we can stick with the bibilical names, AC is either the beast or the False Prophet, to have the beast active at the first seal speaks contradiction because this beast is not seen anywhere but being in the pit until the 5th trump. He was, is not, and will be because he was not in the pit prior to Noah's flood, he is not from then until the 5th trump because he is in the pit, he will be (again) when Satan is cast to Earth and releases him.


Their minisry lasts a FULL 1,260 days. No adjustments, no reductions.

Nor am I trying to adjust their time. The 144,000 are sealed before any of the trumps BTW:

Re:7:3:
Saying,
Hurt not the earth,
neither the sea,
nor the trees,
till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Re:8:7:
The first angel sounded,
and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood,
and they were cast upon the earth:
and the third part of trees was burnt up,
and all green grass was burnt up.

Doesn't your timeline put this sealing as part of a later trump. These first 4 trumps should have a short time or their protection would be taken away while Satan still has time to harm them. By then he is too busy with the witnesses to go back to chasing them.

(I have tried almost everything to get your charts to be full screen (zoom in feature), can you help me with this)

The 2nd Beast, the False Prophet demon does not rise until their ministry is complete. Right there blows your 42 months coexisting out the window since the False Prophet is not empowered until the 42 months. Nor the AC.

The False Prophet doesn't get a full 42 months, he gets a portion of Satan's time, most likely 37 months. (time left after the end of the first woe)

And he rises in the 6th Trumpet.
Yep, this is the same as I think.

Then the 7th Trumpet sounds.
I hope you don't mean right after the sixth without any passage of time.

And in Revelation 12 we see the False Prophet rising, setting up the AoD, seeming to give life to it, but is actually Satan entering and the 42 months of power.

Are you sure this isn't ch 13 from vs:11 on. Ch 12 does include Satan as being at war with the two witnesses (after finding he can do nothing to the 144,000). Vs:17 The unsealed Jews would not concern him if they are still in partial blindness.

So your forumula does not work.
We'll see.

The FP does not even rise until their ministry is finished. Satan is not cast down until their ministry is finished. The 42 months does not begin until their ministry is finished.

The AC and AoD are not in the Inner Temple for the 1,260 days of the Two Witness ministry.

The AC is not in the Temple during the 1,260 days of the Two.

But at Mid he most assuredly enters.

I thought you said the FP rises at the 6th trump? This is getting ahead of where we are, at some time of the two witnesses the FP will be in the Holy land, even then he cannot touch the two until their time is complete. The two wouldn't stop any construction he starts, like the image building that he has men do.

How do you reconcile the simply declarations of the Bible?

As in the FP does not even arise until after their 1,260 days.
The AC is not in the Temple for their 1,260 days.
The 7th Trumpet does not sound until after their ministry is finished.
The 42 months of Satan does not begin until the 7th Trumpet.

Do you have all the trumps sounding one right after the other without the things associated with each trump being completed before the next sounds?

Please reconcile these clear declarations to show how they can overlap? Which does not mean jumping to other verses but dealing with the plain an clear statements of these verses.
Over time we will cover all the bases.

You have the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls all out of order to each other and to themselves.

Leaving the seals alone for just abit, I'm not messing with the order of any of the trumps or the seals, one trump blows, time for that prophecy passes then the next trump sounds and time passes untill that is fullfilled, etc., etc. None of the vials occur untill the 7th trump sounds and then they are poured out in a short time, that one day thing. Even after the last vial there is still some time taken for the re-gathering etc., no much but it isn't 'poof' all accomplished even though the wicked are dead by the end of the last vial.

Even though we are at opposite ends of the spectrum on this it is very good talking with you about this.

Later

[MHz]

Hi Core,
I will withhold bogging down answer that very long last post until I see a reply to my very simple pointing out the 1,260 days of the Two are followed by the 42 months my very direct and literal verse and passage statement.
If you see the point and concede it literally states one after the other them many of the statements in the long post become moot.
Here I will simply repost the most direct verse statements on the issue.
This chapter is written when the 6th Trumpet sounds.
Very clear. For 1,260 days the Two will have their ministry. During which time only the outer court belongs to the Gentiles, which includes the AC.
Then they are killed.
Then the 7th Trumpet sounds. 7th Trumpet follows 6th. And clearly stated here the 7th sounds after the 2nd Woe is complete.
And then the 42 months in the 7th Trumpet. Which I did not post but we know that is a fact.
Clearly stated on 3.5 years and then the next 3.5 years. No way to merge them into one time period by any literal reading here.
Please show me how you deal with this passage. Not jumping off to others and trying to spin meaning, which I will disagree with. I want to know how you can alter these words to something other than said.

Revelation 11 The Two Witnesses
1I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there.
2But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.
3And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."
7Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.
8Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.
14The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.
The Seventh Trumpet
15The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

The beast that kills them doesn't do so the very moment it comes out of the pit, some time is spent chasing the 144,000, once attention is focused on the two, no matter how many days before the 1260 days the witnesses have they will remain alive. You have them in a 'building' and killed there and then tossed out into the street or dragged into the streets and then killed.
Since we covered this before I'm sure you are aware I see us being in the temple of God anytime we are in prayer, no matter what part of the Earth our feet is on. The two will be in the Holy City but their Temple is in Heaven, same place it has been since the veil was rent from top to bottom. If Satan wants to put up a building on the original site or an image let him. The power that place had is with God. Depending on how elaborate the image is it could be built when the two witnesses lay dead. If the two are to be on the original site that is where they will be (instead of being in the city somewhere). The Gentiles in the courtyard are those who don't pray and have not accepted Christ.

I'll leave the trumps for a moment as there is some things in my last post that may cover this issue and your answer is needed first.

Later

PS those counted as being in the temple might be the ones who say prayers before Satan starts his time (this point is flexible as more verses are explored). Timeline being those 3 1/2 days befor Satan so each has the same amount of time given. Are you aware that the fire that is cast to the earth that comes from the alter just before the sound of the first trump contains the prayers of the 24 Elders so it is a good thing, not a bad thing to have happen;

Re:8:3:
And another angel came and stood at the altar,
having a golden censer;
and there was given unto him much incense,
that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Re:8:4:
And the smoke of the incense,
which came with the prayers of the saints,
ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
Re:8:5:
And the angel took the censer,
and filled it with fire of the altar,
and cast it into the earth:
and there were voices,
and thunderings,
and lightnings,
and an earthquake.

[CoreIssue]

OK. This is getting totally frustrating and I have to find a way to change it.

So, I will have to reduce my comments until such time into a compacted form.

You said the Trumpets each must complete before the next sounds.

So, 5 months in the 5th Trumpet plus 42 months in the 7th is 47 months. Your 42 month Trib is not there.

You said the FP could be building whatever while the Two are in the Temple.

Cannot be. When the FP touches the Inner Temple the Temple services end on the sport because the Temple is defiled. And it says the Gentiles cannot enter the Inner for 1,260 days. Again you have reduced that time count.

Your math does not work here. Meaning your doctrine is refuted.

[MHz]

OK. This is getting totally frustrating and I have to find a way to change it.

So, I will have to reduce my comments until such time into a compacted form.

You said the Trumpets each must complete before the next sounds.

So, 5 months in the 5th Trumpet plus 42 months in the 7th is 47 months. Your 42 month Trib is not there.

You said the FP could be building whatever while the Two are in the Temple.

Cannot be. When the FP touches the Inner Temple the Temple services end on the sport because the Temple is defiled. And it says the Gentiles cannot enter the Inner for 1,260 days. Again you have reduced that time count.

Your math does not work here. Meaning your doctrine is refuted.

5th + 6th = 42 months.

Okay, pick a spot any place in the land described below;

Da:11:45:
And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain;
yet he shall come to his end,
and none shall help him.

[CoreIssue]

5th + 6th = 42 months.
Where is the 7th Trumpet? I dont see it here.

And by your own demand the 5 months of the 5th Trumpet must complete before another time frame can begin.

Need to resolve this. You keep changing your times as questions change.

You now have the 5 months in the 42, which cannot be done by your completion demands.

[MHz]

Where is the 7th Trumpet? I dont see it here.

And by your own demand the 5 months of the 5th Trumpet must complete before another time frame can begin.

Need to resolve this. You keep changing your times as questions change.

You now have the 5 months in the 42, which cannot be done by your completion demands.

Right at the end of the 42.

5th trump = 5 months used up, leaving the remainder of the time from the sound of the sixth until the sound of the seventh.

Sort of like seperating the iron legs from the clay and iron feet and toes.

I haven't changed this time, or any other, since we've met. I haven't had the opportunity to discuss this part with you much so it could appear that way.

[CoreIssue]

I see where you are heading here. Totally disagree.

Now explain how the ministry of the Two Witnesses can coincide with the 42 months of Satan when it says they cannot be in the Temple with the Priests and Two Witnesses.
Revelation 11 The Two Witnesses
2But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.
3And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."

No way you can have the AC, FP or Satan in the Temple during this time.

Gentiles here does not mean the AC, FP or Satan.

[MHz]

Hi Core,
I see where you are heading here. Totally disagree.

Now explain how the ministry of the Two Witnesses can coincide with the 42 months of Satan when it says they cannot be in the Temple with the Priests and Two Witnesses.

No way you can have the AC, FP or Satan in the Temple during this time.

Gentiles here does not mean the AC, FP or Satan.

Hi Core,
It isn't meant to replace what you believe right now. In the parable about the workers in the field each recieving a penny at the end of the day. The last ones hired were not hired until the 11th hour. The point being not everybody that is eventually hired is hired first thing in the morning.

The death of the two witnesses allows for that I believe(them being 'alone' in the temple, if there isn't one there they will at least build the image there). Satan would have less than 4 days before the sound of the 7th trump and the end of his power, since the beast gets it's power from Satan his time in any temple or having his False Prophet having any power to back up his claim of being God is now over also.

No, the Gentiles are the ones there to recieve the mark so they can be merchants, or they are merchants and they want to stay that way. The earthquake and the death of the 7,000 being the time they repent and give glory to God, if there are any Jews present they would be seeing quite clearly.

Re:18:22:
And the voice of harpers,
and musicians,
and of pipers,
and trumpeters,
shall be heard no more at all in thee;
and no craftsman,
of whatsoever craft he be,
shall be found any more in thee;
and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

Same millstone as in Daniel.

There are only two that end up in the Lake right at this time, maybe Satan is someplace else. He can travel in the air can't he?

Eph:2:1:
And you hath he quickened,
who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph:2:2:
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world,
according to the prince of the power of the air,
the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph:2:3:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh,
fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind;
and were by nature the children of wrath,
even as others.
Eph:2:4:
But God,
who is rich in mercy,
for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph:2:5:
Even when we were dead in sins,
hath quickened us together with Christ,
(by grace ye are saved;)

One thing that has changed since we talked before is I have some verses now that refer to the sword and the ones who direct this sword as given in the book of Romans.(that this type of shepherd is still the norm is interesting once we determine where Rome belongs in the statue).
A word seach in the books of the OT that are mostly prophecy are the verses that have 'shepherd and woe' in the same verse, the passages that go with these verses are quite rich in detail on the way they are judged, a not at all pleasant thing for them, a lot better for the ones who were part of the sword, they lay their heads for the thousand years and are most likely judged differently than those who have been concious in hell for this same time.
This also seems to release these 'shepherds' during Satan's time because the 10 men who he gives some authority to are not leaders of any nation at the time they are chosen;

Re:17:12:
And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings,
which have received no kingdom as yet;
but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

I assume Nations and Kingdoms are the same in that there is one in all these that would be the 'highest authority in the land'. If they can be considered to be different so much the better, in that present nations cannot join Satan as they currently stand. Nations have 'servants of God' leading them as servants. This could be a non-violent event if it only takes one hour, and all the resourses of all the nations would be in the control of these 10 men. It is later 7 men and the False Prophet who has probably killed 3 of the original 10.

[CoreIssue]

Hi MHz,
You didn't answer my question.
Now explain how the ministry of the Two Witnesses can coincide with the 42 months of Satan when it says they cannot be in the Temple with the Priests and Two Witnesses.
This point refutes your time line completely.

[MHz]

Hi MHz,
You didn't answer my question.

This point refutes your time line completely.

The beast from the pit that kills the two witnesses and the False Prophet have a few days before the sound of the 7th trump. Who would be able to stop them from 'sitting in the temple of God claiming they are God, or just the FP doing the sitting.

[CoreIssue]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreIssue
Hi MHz,
You didn't answer my question.

This point refutes your time line completely.


The beast from the pit that kills the two witnesses and the False Prophet have a few days before the sound of the 7th trump. Who would be able to stop them from 'sitting in the temple of God claiming they are God, or just the FP doing the sitting.
You still have not answered my point.

They cannot all be in the Temple in the Trib at the same time.

You claim they are and that the full Trib is only 42 months but you keep exceeding 42 months.

HOW can they all be in the Temple for 42 months together? How?

[MHz]

You still have not answered my point.

They cannot all be in the Temple in the Trib at the same time.

You claim they are and that the full Trib is only 42 months but you keep exceeding 42 months.

HOW can they all be in the Temple for 42 months together? How?

Say the two witness start, they control the temple for their 1260 days. The beast can be at war with them throughout this time, this would include the army of 200 mil, 'victory' only comes because of the end of their alloted time is fullfilled. The beast kills them, but this is 3 1/2 days before the end of satan's 42 months ( 5th and 6th trumps combined). To kill them the beast has to be in the temple or the two witnesses are in the street (where the Gentiles can see them). What does he do from when the two die until the sound of the next trump? There would be no more opposion, the beast and FP are in control. The witnesses would have to be empowered 3 1/2 days before the start of Satan's 42 months, this allows for the 3 1/2 days they are dead. In the time the two are dead the FP has control over the ground the two witnesses controled during their testimony. By this time he has gained all the territory it is determined he will conquor. The spot where the two are is the last stronghold that is against him. The celebration he will inspire has people sending gifts back and forth. In this period of days he builds the image and it speaks just before the earthquake (or the resurrction of the two, this might not be seen from where the FP has set up his throne). The 7,000 that die have either just taken the mark or they die just before they can take it depending on what fate God has in store these 7,000. Anybody other than these now see that this mark does not come from the one and only God and head for the hills.

In the time at the start of their testimony they have 3 1/2 day to prophecise (I'm not sure if any men will try to harm them. The war with Satan could start right from day 1 of Satan's 42 months.

[CoreIssue]

Say the two witness start, they control the temple for their 1260 days. The beast can be at war with them throughout this time, this would include the army of 200 mil, 'victory' only comes because of the end of their alloted time is fullfilled.
The 200 mil army is not with the AC at the time you read about them.

And the AC does not break his treaty with Israel and many until Mid. So he is not at war with Israel.

BUT, I fully believe he tries to kill the Two all through the First Half. So we are in partial agreement here.

And at the end of their 1,260 is Mid. And that is when the AoD is set up, the Trumpets sound and such.

So no, this is not the 42 months of Satan. At that time Satan is in the AC Statue called the dragon (not Dragon) in the Temple.
The beast kills them, but this is 3 1/2 days before the end of satan's 42 months ( 5th and 6th trumps combined).
Again you just exceeded a 3.5 year Trib by 3.5 days in your own formula. Does not work.

The Two Witnesses are fully within the time of the Trib. The Trib is God's time of testing. it is not the same as Satan's 42 months.
To kill them the beast has to be in the temple or the two witnesses are in the street (where the Gentiles can see them).
But not until day 1,261. Any way you try to shape this you have 1,261 plus 3.5 days. And that is more than 3.5 years.
What does he do from when the two die until the sound of the next trump? There would be no more opposion, the beast and FP are in control. The witnesses would have to be empowered 3 1/2 days before the start of Satan's 42 months, this allows for the 3 1/2 days they are dead.

False.

1,260 days with the Two, die on day 1,261 when all the trumpets sound. 42 months begin and you have 7 years. Not a day more and not a day less. 7 year Trib.

In the time the two are dead the FP has control over the ground the two witnesses controled during their testimony.
Yes. The false Trinity is empowered for 42 months beginning on day 1,261. No. The FP is not in control. The AC is. The FP is the AC's prophet.
By this time he has gained all the territory it is determined he will conquor.
The AC does the conquering. Not the FP.
The spot where the two are is the last stronghold that is against him.
Israel is not even entered until day 1,261. The AC army sweeps in unopposed.
The celebration he will inspire has people sending gifts back and forth. In this period of days he builds the image
He sets up the image that has already been built and brought with them. The AC declares himself god on day 1,261. Satan enters the image/statue on day 1,261.
and it speaks just before the earthquake (or the resurrction of the two, this might not be seen from where the FP has set up his throne).
The FP does not have a throne. The AC is King.

The 7,000 that die have either just taken the mark or they die just before they can take it depending on what fate God has in store these 7,000. Anybody other than these now see that this mark does not come from the one and only God and head for the hills.

That is way too much speculation about the 7,000.

In the time at the start of their testimony they have 3 1/2 day to prophecise (I'm not sure if any men will try to harm them. The war with Satan could start right from day 1 of Satan's 42 months.

You just defined 1,264.5 days of Trib. You still are refuting yourself.

Further, the 42 months do not even begin until the 7th Trumpet, which is after the death of the Two in the 6th.

Even if you argue differently you still have to allow time for the Bowls, of which the 6th is very time consuming.

No. You are way over 1,260 days here. Not to mention you left zero time for the Seals.

Your time line does not work.

By your own words you have 1,264.5 days for the Two Witnesses alone. Now you have to add time for the Bowls, Seals and so on.

You cannot squeeze it all into 3.5 years.

[MHz]

The 200 mil army is not with the AC at the time you read about them.
Since they are manifest by the 6th trump (the 2nd woe), In writing to us about these things would God divide the events of the first woe from the events of the 2nd woe? Satan's time is two woes, the killing done by this army has to be complete by the end of his time.

And the AC does not break his treaty with Israel and many until Mid. So he is not at war with Israel. I didn't say he was at war with them, only with the two witnesses. If any Jews are in the 1/3 that the 200 mil die then he is at war with them, if he cannot get to the 144,000 and he goes to make war with their remnant there are probably Jews involved, along with many others.

BUT, I fully believe he tries to kill the Two all through the First Half. So we are in partial agreement here.

This would put him in the Holy land (not the temple itself) before the last few days of the witnesses time.

And at the end of their 1,260 is Mid. And that is when the AoD is set up, the Trumpets sound and such.

But you have the beast of the pit doing things before you have a start to satan's 42 months. Satan releases this beast, he can't di things like that without it being part of his 42. It would be like pouring the vials out before the 7th trump sounds.

So no, this is not the 42 months of Satan. At that time Satan is in the AC Statue called the dragon (not Dragon) in the Temple. Set up by the one he gives power to but before he has power (start of his time)?

Again you just exceeded a 3.5 year Trib by 3.5 days in your own formula. Does not work.
The woes are based on the trumps, the first two woes are the 42 months of trib. The start of the two doesn't have to start at the same time, the only time we have for then is in relation to when they die. All things being equal. If they die before the end of Satan's time they must start their days by an equal amount before the start of the 42.

The Two Witnesses are fully within the time of the Trib. The Trib is God's time of testing. it is not the same as Satan's 42 months.

This 3 1/2 days before the start of satan's time (5th trump) would still fall within the 1st four trumps (which are not part of the 3 woes.

But not until day 1,261. Any way you try to shape this you have 1,261 plus 3.5 days. And that is more than 3.5 years.

See below


1,260 days with the Two, die on day 1,261 when all the trumpets sound. 42 months begin and you have 7 years. Not a day more and not a day less. 7 year Trib.

The only trump left to sound at this time is the 7th The second woe cannot be past if the trump that begins is hasn't yet sounded.

Yes. The false Trinity is empowered for 42 months beginning on day 1,261. No. The FP is not in control. The AC is. The FP is the AC's prophet.
This doesn't change anything

The AC does the conquering. Not the FP.

Again this doesn't change anything

Israel is not even entered until day 1,261. The AC army sweeps in unopposed.

I thought you (partially ) agreed that the war against the two witnesses could be going on throughout their ministry.

He sets up the image that has already been built and brought with them. The AC declares himself god on day 1,261. Satan enters the image/statue on day 1,261.

I agree with this, we begin to disagree what happens when the two are raised and what the sound of the 7th trump denotes. The 7th trump is Christ claiming the earth as His. He isn't going to not start His reign by doing nothing for a few years, He is going to start right then and there.

The FP does not have a throne. The AC is King.

Sort of like having a kingdom right?

That is way too much speculation about the 7,000.

You would agree that their fate might be hinge on whether they die before taking the mark or they die after taking the mark right?

You just defined 1,264.5 days of Trib. You still are refuting yourself.

The trib is the three woes, there is tribulation (Satan's 42, as explained by the 5th and 6th trumps) and there is great tribulation (7th trump which marks the time that the bowls are poured out)

Further, the 42 months do not even begin until the 7th Trumpet, which is after the death of the Two in the 6th.

Mark the sound of the 7th trump as point C on a line, mark a point to the left of this as point B and give this space a time of 37 months, mark a point to the left of B as point A. Give the space between point A & B a time of 5 months. The time from point A to C is (5+37) Satan's 42. You have the sound of the trump after the end of the second woe as being the very 1st trump, it isn't, it is the 7th trump, all the other trumps have sounded and all the events associated with them are in the past, what each trump indicates will happen before the sound of the next one, for instance;

Re:8:7: The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
(this is made manifest, then)
Re:8:8: And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
Re:8:9: And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
(this is made manifest, then)
Re:8:10: And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
Re:8:11: And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
(this is made manifest, the effect on the water is complete and from then on anybody who drinks this water will die, this water does not get 'healed' at the sound of the next trump, then)
Re:8:12: And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
(this is made manifest, then)
Re:9:1: And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
(this is made manifest, include the next 11 verses as a description of what is made manifest, then)
Re:9:14: Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
(this is made manifest, this is the second woe, then comes the sound of another trump at the end of this woe, that would have to be the sound)
Re:11:14: The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Re:11:15: And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Even if you argue differently you still have to allow time for the Bowls, of which the 6th is very time consuming.
Why would this take time, everybody is there when the two die.

No. You are way over 1,260 days here. Not to mention you left zero time for the Seals.

Ah yes the seals.
I do have some words to say about them but we should finish some existing topics first. Basically they are the index for what will happen next.

Your time line does not work.

Nor does having the beast operating before the start of Satan's time since it is the start of Satan's time that marks when the beast is released.

By your own words you have 1,264.5 days for the Two Witnesses alone. Now you have to add time for the Bowls, Seals and so on.

If you have the seals using 3 1/2 years and Satan having 3 1/2 after this where do you put the fire from the alter that is cast to the earth and the 1st 4 trumps, they are neither part of the seals nor part of Satan's time since Satan only arrives with the 5th trump.


Lets clear up when Satan's time starts first, this can be determined with just the trumps


You cannot squeeze it all into 3.5 years.

Tribulation for the inhabitants of the earth is the 3 woes, since Chtist is the 3rd woe His time is not counted in the first two woes, the first two woes have a combined time of 42 months.

[CoreIssue]

HI MHz,

Tribulation for the inhabitants of the earth is the 3 woes, since Chtist is the 3rd woe His time is not counted in the first two woes, the first two woes have a combined time of 42 months.

False. Pure and simple.

The Trib is God's time of testing of all on the whole earth.

Christ is not testing anyone at the Second Coming. He is purging the earth and setting up the MK. He is not bringing Trib put his Rule.


Revelation 3
10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.


Christ is not Third Woe.

The Trib is Seal 1 through Bowl 7 followed by the Second Coming. The revealing of the AC with his peace treaty (Seals 1 and Treaty opening Daniel's 70th Week).

All you are doing is throwing out unsubstantiated theory due to your total dislike for Pre-Trib doctrine. And to do so you take Christ's death away from the end of the 69th Week and move it Mid 70th Week.

Does not fly grammatically or historically but you still do it.

You reduce the Trib to Two Trumpets. You move the Second Coming back to the 7th Trumpet. You move the Bowls post Second Coming.

All to deny Pre-Trib. Not one presentation of verse, grammtical or any other type of evidence or proof of any kind. You your theories.

John deals with the 7 churches and Church Ages and then moves to Heaven where we see changes, including resurrected, glorified and rewarded saints. Then he moves to the Trib with the revealing of the AC. The he moves through the Trib. Then he moves to the Second Coming. Then he moves to the MK.

Nice, neat, in order and fully understandable grammatically and by normal rules of reading.

You throw all that out the window, do your own organization, present nothing to substaniate it except claims and then expect it acceptable as a doctrine.

It isn't.

Not trying to be nasty or anything, but your dislike for Pre-Trib has really gone way to far in this thinking.

I present the issue of the Two being 1,260 day plus 3.5 and you just toss out the 3.5 to make it fit.

You declare the 5th must complete before the 6th Trumpet can sound and the 6th before the 7th but then move the 42 months presented in the 7th Trumpet back to the 5th and 6th before the 7th has even sounded. Then you move the 3.5 days beginning in the 6th Trumpet into completing in the 7th when you said the events of the 6th must complete before the 7th can sound. And you have the Mark of the Beast starting at the beginning of your placement of the 42 months which has the FP and Satan handing them out before the 6th Trumpet even sounds for them to begin handing them out.

Your presentation is just plain disjointed, confusing and contradictiory time wise. And thus the reason you cannot lay out a detailed time line as I have asked you to in the past.

We have laid out exacting times lines and presentations for the Statue, Beasts and 70th Week of Daniel. And for Revelation. All in time given order, all easily relating to each other and easily tied into each other.

Yet, you reject them in favor of what you cannot defend.

Do you really dislike, even hate, Pre-Trib that much?

I really don't get it. Why so much effort in something indefensible?

[MHz]

Hi Core,
Do you really dislike, even hate, Pre-Trib that much?

Gosh no!

I would have absolutely no qualms about a pre-trib gathering, with the understanding this is not the end of the gathering. I don't know what occurs in that half hour of silence that is just after the last seal is broken. I would include all the ones 'blessed' in the following verses as qualifying for a gathering at this time;

M't:5:3: Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
M't:5:4: Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
M't:5:5: Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
M't:5:6: Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
M't:5:7: Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
M't:5:8: Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
M't:5:9: Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
M't:5:10: Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
M't:5:11: Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
M't:11:6: And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
M't:13:16: But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

The last 4 or 5 mentioned could also apply to those who see the trib.

It is only the 'teaching' of pre-trib rapture and the rest (of man)die unsaved or that prayer in this time will not be heard and answered.

It it really important to understand the end-time verses correctly, if there is information why shouldn't we search for the correct meaning?

Later

[CoreIssue]

Hi MHz,

I would have absolutely no qualms about a pre-trib gathering, with the understanding this is not the end of the gathering.

Of course it is not!

The First Resurrection lasts for the full Day of the Lord. And the Day of the Lord is from the Pre-Trib Rapture until the destruction of the Heavens and the Earth after the MK.

I don't know what occurs in that half hour of silence that is just after the last seal is broken.
It closes out the First Half, which is the end of the Time of the Two Witnesses, Israel rejects the warnings of the Two and loose their protection as declared by Malachi and it moves to time of Christ beginning his setup to take over the world as declared in the 7th Trumpet. A transition to the Woes, Bowls and final sorting.

I would include all the ones 'blessed' in the following verses as qualifying for a gathering at this time;
As long as people are on the earth they can be saved.

Jew and Gentile alike. But not all of either will be saved.
It is only the 'teaching' of pre-trib rapture and the rest (of man)die unsaved or that prayer in this time will not be heard and answered.

Where did you ever get the idea that is a dominate thinking in Pre-Trib? No one here believes that.


It it really important to understand the end-time verses correctly, if there is information why shouldn't we search for the correct meaning?


Agree. But we also have to abide by rules of grammar, linquistics and such in doing that. We cannot construct doctrines that appease our senses.

And you are violating grammar, linquistics and such in your approach.

There is absolutely nothing presented in the Bible to justify reading out of given order per rules of grammar in Revelation.

And there are some in Pre-Trib I will challenge instantly with their thinking.

Later

Later.

[MHz]

"The First Resurrection lasts for the full Day of the Lord. And the Day of the Lord is from the Pre-Trib Rapture until the destruction of the Heavens and the Earth after the MK."

You will notice in the post above I didn't provide even one verse that supports a gathering called pre-trib. I said there was a space of 1/2 hour where I don't know what happens, that is the only available time slot available and there is not one verse in the whole Bible that supports this. Every single verse in the Bible has meaning and can shed knowledge about some event.

The Day of the Lord does have a start. The start is when He claims the Earth as belonging to God. There is no end to the Day of the Lord, it is eternal, it is a day without end. The Bible even goes as far as the end of the first Week of the Lord.
Day 1- Beast, False Prophet in the Lake, wicked in Death or Hell.
Day 2- Resurrection of the dead (and change for those living) that will live forever in MK.
Day 3-Purification of those listed in day 2, called MK A time to prepare for the next day.
Day 4-Satan's final time. Purified saints are 100% faithful to Christ. All these go to Heaven for,
Day5-Judgement Day where 'the rest' will be resurrected . End of death and hell.
Day6-New Jerusalem and New Earth and New Heaven, living waters restore all other flesh.
Day 7-Day of rest then the Children of God go out into the new Earth, as in Geneses 2.

You don't know what happens in that 1/2 hour.

'As long as people are on the earth they can be saved."
Judgement Day isn't even on the Earth, and this verse pretty much eliminates that none of 'the rest' cannot be saved;
1Pe:4:5:
Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
1Pe:4:6:
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead,
that they might be judged according to men in the flesh,
but live according to God in the spirit.

"Jew and Gentile alike. But not all of either will be saved."
I'll let the ones who have this book decide who is and who isn't in it. You forgot to include False Christians (goats in Matt:25);
M't:20:14:
Take that thine is,
and go thy way:
I will give unto this last,
even as unto thee.
M't:20:15:
Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own?
Is thine eye evil,
because I am good?
M't:20:16:
So the last shall be first,
and the first last:
for many be called,
but few chosen.

"Where did you ever get the idea that is a dominate thinking in Pre-Trib? No one here believes that."
You don't believe prayer will keep a person alive in the trib, this saving feature went with those in your pre-trib gathering.

"we also have to abide by rules of grammar, linquistics and such in doing that. We cannot construct doctrines that appease our senses."

How about the rules of math? 42 months does not equal 7 years.
How about the rules of logic? If in a given time Satan interacts with the 144,000 and the two witnesses then it is logical that the 144,000 and the two share at least some of satan's given time.

"There is absolutely nothing presented in the Bible to justify reading out of given order per rules of grammar in Revelation."

You changed it to conform to 7 years, you have 1st seal broken, then fullfilled in full, then 2nd seal broken, that fullfilled in full, etc. Yet you change this when it comes to the trumps. You have the 7 plagues of the 7 vials lasting a lot longer than what the Bible says. It says one day for the plagues. All in the effort to protect 'your 7 year timeline. All based on a time given in one single verse, There is not one single doctrine that should have a foundation based on one verse, if you could provide any other verses that said 7 years you would have, and I would have probably read it even before meeting you. Two verses is good, three is better, four makes a strong base for a doctrine. One is a base for wishfull thinking. The more you know about the trib the less threatening it is, the less threatening it is the less wishing that you won't 'see' it unprotected. Did God leave Jesus alone on the cross, did the Apostles fear death? Having the same connection to Christ during the trib will make it bearable, it won't be a time of fear if a person has turned to Christ.

If you do not mention the last two sentences just above when talking to others then you are not not even aware of this. The ones from the Nations that come and see the feast of the Fowl and Beasts of the field have all lived through the trib and they are fully accepted and fully eternal, these will never see death.

[CoreIssue]

"The First Resurrection lasts for the full Day of the Lord. And the Day of the Lord is from the Pre-Trib Rapture until the destruction of the Heavens and the Earth after the MK."

You will notice in the post above I didn't provide even one verse that supports a gathering called pre-trib. I said there was a space of 1/2 hour where I don't know what happens, that is the only available time slot available and there is not one verse in the whole Bible that supports this. Every single verse in the Bible has meaning and can shed knowledge about some event.
The Rapture is not mentioned from the Seals to the end of Revelation because it occurs before the Trib.

Revelation 3:10, among others, is Rapture.

Proof is in seeing Resurrected, glorified and rewarded saints at the First Seal who were not there before.

But this is getting off topic.

The Day of the Lord does have a start. The start is when He claims the Earth as belonging to God.

Not correct. Read Day of the Lord (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1867)and Day of the Lord Jesus Christ (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1868). You will see it encomposes All the 7 years of the Trib and the Pre-Trib Rapture.
There is no end to the Day of the Lord, it is eternal, it is a day without end.
Verse please to back this claim. The very word day does not allow this by itself.
The Bible even goes as far as the end of the first Week of the Lord.
There is no such thing as Week of the Day of the Lord in the Bible.
Day 1- Beast, False Prophet in the Lake, wicked in Death or Hell.
Second Coming. Not 7th Trumpet.
Day 2- Resurrection of the dead (and change for those living) that will live forever in MK.
Nope. There is Resurrection at Mid Trib for the Two Witnesses. There are resiurrected saints at the First Seal. When the Trib saints are still spirits they stand before resurrected saints on throne.
Day 3-Purification of those listed in day 2, called MK A time to prepare for the next day.

Non Biblical.
Day 4-Satan's final time. Purified saints are 100% faithful to Christ. All these go to Heaven for,
The short time contains both saved and lost. Purifed saints here is a meaningless term Biblically speaking.
Day5-Judgement Day where 'the rest' will be resurrected . End of death and hell.

End in terms of the earth. Cast into the Lake where for those in it the Lake they are Enternal realities.
Day6-New Jerusalem and New Earth and New Heaven, living waters restore all other flesh.
Nope. You are pulling MK verses and moving them to Eternity.

People won't be catching and eating fish in Eternity. Or building homes and planting crops.
Day 7-Day of rest then the Children of God go out into the new Earth, as in Geneses 2.

You don't know what happens in that 1/2 hour.

Already told you.
'As long as people are on the earth they can be saved."
Judgement Day isn't even on the Earth, and this verse pretty much eliminates that none of 'the rest' cannot be saved;

Your point on continuing an issue I don't believe in to start with?

"Jew and Gentile alike. But not all of either will be saved."
I'll let the ones who have this book decide who is and who isn't in it. You forgot to include False Christians (goats in Matt:25);

No where does the Bible say all Jews will be saved. Never.

And I forgot nothing. Christians are both Jew and Gentile.
"Where did you ever get the idea that is a dominate thinking in Pre-Trib? No one here believes that."
You don't believe prayer will keep a person alive in the trib, this saving feature went with those in your pre-trib gathering.
Of course I do not because it is never said. Give the verse that states this.

"we also have to abide by rules of grammar, linquistics and such in doing that. We cannot construct doctrines that appease our senses."

How about the rules of math? 42 months does not equal 7 years.

But 1,260 days plus 42 months does.

Where did you ever get the Trib is the 42 months? Revelation 3 tells us it is God's time of testing. Satan's 42 months is only one part of the Trib. Not the whole.
How about the rules of logic? If in a given time Satan interacts with the 144,000 and the two witnesses then it is logical that the 144,000 and the two share at least some of satan's given time.


Satan and the 144,000 and Two Witnesses do not interact. Satan is not even cast down until the day after the end of the Two's ministry.

You are making false claims here to try to prop up a 3.5 year Trib.
"There is absolutely nothing presented in the Bible to justify reading out of given order per rules of grammar in Revelation."

You changed it to conform to 7 years, you have 1st seal broken, then fullfilled in full, then 2nd seal broken, that fullfilled in full, etc.
Totally false. Never said. I stated the Seals overlap throughout the first half of the Trib.

Yet you change this when it comes to the trumps.

Nope. I am consistant. Breaking of a Seal or Sounding of a Trumpet does not demand completion before the next occurs.

And Woes are not full Trumpets.
You have the 7 plagues of the 7 vials lasting a lot longer than what the Bible says. It says one day for the plagues.

Really? Where? Quote it.
All in the effort to protect 'your 7 year timeline.

Yep. Daniel says a Week. That is 7 years. 1,260 plus 42 is 7 years. Overlay Daniel onto Revelation.

No effort to it. Right there and literal.

Really, trying to copy my presentation before and reverse it is blowing up for you yere.
All based on a time given in one single verse,

One verse? You have not been listening.
There is not one single doctrine that should have a foundation based on one verse,
And yet there are such because only one verse is said on an issue.
if you could provide any other verses that said 7 years you would have, and I would have probably read it even before meeting you.

Daniel's 70th Week is 7 years.

1,260 days of the Two with the Woes FOLLOWING and containing the 42 months.
1,260 days of the Two with the 1,260 days of the Women in protection.

Yep. 3 stated 7 years right.

1,260 days of the Two with the bowls following.
1,260 days of the Two with the 5 months following.

All exceed 3.5 years. And there is more but that is sufficient to show the point.
Two verses is good, three is better, four makes a strong base for a doctrine.
You got'em. And all in order presented.

You, on the other hand, have given zero to justify your stance.
One is a base for wishfull thinking.

While it does not apply here one clear statement from God is enough.

The more you know about the trib the less threatening it is, the less threatening it is the less wishing that you won't 'see' it unprotected.

After 44 years of study I believe I know a good amount. And the Trib is deadly.
Did God leave Jesus alone on the cross,

Actually, he did.
did the Apostles fear death? Having the same connection to Christ during the trib will make it bearable, it won't be a time of fear if a person has turned to Christ.

Church will not be there.

Saints will have assurance of the outcome. They will endure, not meaning there will not be fear, pain and death.

If you do not mention the last two sentences just above when talking to others then you are not not even aware of this.

A distortion of reality. Enduring does not mean a human will not fear and suffer.

No one wants pain. Christ endured it, but he clearly would have avoided it.
The ones from the Nations that come and see the feast of the Fowl and Beasts of the field have all lived through the trib and they are fully accepted and fully eternal, these will never see death.

Not Biblical. There is birth and death in the MK. As was shown to you before and which you keep just disregarding.

[CTZonEdit]

Whats the point of us suffering and enduring the Tribulation?:scratch:

[MHz]

Whats the point of us suffering and enduring the Tribulation?:scratch:

I haven't ever used those two words to describe what believers experience in the trib. I have said it is a time without fear, for those who die there is no fear of death and this number might be very small, all the remnant of the Nations are believers who get through alive, notice they come there, they are not there when Satan is killing, the wicked in the Nation die the same time as the wicked in the Holy land;

Eze:39:6:
And I will send a fire on Magog,
and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles:
and they shall know that I am the LORD.

The middle line in the above verse could be a very large number, when Israel is the topic the Isles do not have many words said about them.

That one word covers all iniquities that are an abomination to the Lord.

The point of witnessing this is that Satan's little season will be shorter but thosegathered against the beloved city and the camp of the saints will be much larger, second time around is not a time of concern. Concern will occur at least once in the trib, t