Day of the Lord Jesus Christ

[CoreIssue]

Day of the Lord Jesus Christ - Hebrew and Greek exact word verses
Like DOTL, another term heard a lot of is "the day of the Lord Jesus Christ".

The Greek used for this in the Interlinear is "hmera tou kuriou"

There are only four verses in the Greek actually using that term. Here they are:

1Co 1:8
Who shall also confirm (5692) you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
ov kai bebaiwsei (5692) umav ewv telouv anegklhtouv en th| hmera| tou kuriou hmwn Ihsou [Xristou].


1Co 5:5
To deliver (5629) such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved (5686) in the day of the Lord Jesus.
paradounai (5629) ton toiouton tw| Satana| eiv oleqron thv sarkov, ina to pneuma swqh| (5686) en th| hmera| tou kuriou.


2Co 1:14
As also ye have acknowledged (5627) us in part, that we are (5748) your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus.
kaqwv kai epegnwte (5627) hmav apo merouv, oti kauxhma umwn esmen (5748) kaqaper kai umeiv hmwn en th| hmera| tou kuriou [hmwn] Ihsou.


2Th 2:2
That ye be not soon shaken (5683) in mind, or be troubled (5745), neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand (5758).
eiv to mh taxewv saleuqhnai (5683) umav apo tou noov mhde qroeisqai (5745) mhte dia pneumatov mhte dia logou mhte di' epistolhv wv di' hmwn, wv oti enesthken (5758) h hmera tou kuriou.

This sure looks like a single day to me.

And what day do we need to be blameless? The Rapture. Plus, per the DOTL Hebrew and Greek verses on the other string, the Rapture has to be Pre-Trib.

[MHz]

Hi Core,
My comments are within the [[ ]] marks.

Day of the Lord Jesus Christ - Hebrew and Greek exact word verses
Like DOTL, another term heard a lot of is "the day of the Lord Jesus Christ".

The Greek used for this in the Interlinear is "hmera tou kuriou"

1Co 1:8
Who shall also confirm (5692) you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
ov kai bebaiwsei (5692) umav ewv telouv anegklhtouv en th| hmera| tou kuriou hmwn Ihsou [Xristou].

[[the end being that last day before the kingdoms of the earth before they belong to the Lord, all other kingdoms have perished and no other kingdom will ever rise. The start of an eternal kingdom]]


1Co 5:5
To deliver (5629) such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved (5686) in the day of the Lord Jesus.
paradounai (5629) ton toiouton tw| Satana| eiv oleqron thv sarkov, ina to pneuma swqh| (5686) en th| hmera| tou kuriou.

[[ to be delivered to Satan would mean Satan has to actually be there to destroy the flesh, refers to the 42 given months]]


2Co 1:14
As also ye have acknowledged (5627) us in part, that we are (5748) your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus.
kaqwv kai epegnwte (5627) hmav apo merouv, oti kauxhma umwn esmen (5748) kaqaper kai umeiv hmwn en th| hmera| tou kuriou [hmwn] Ihsou.

[[ Resurrection right after the destruction of the wicked;
Jer:31:1:
At the same time,
saith the LORD,
will I be the God of all the families of Israel,
and they shall be my people.
Jer:31:2:
Thus saith the LORD,
The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness;
even Israel,
when I went to cause him to rest.


Israel, and a veiled message about ‘the rest’.;

Jer:31:11:
For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob,
and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he.
Jer:31:12:
Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion,
and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD,
for wheat,
and for wine,
and for oil,
and for the young of the flock and of the herd:
and their soul shall be as a watered garden;
and they shall not sorrow any more at all.
Jer:31:13:
Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance,
both young men and old together:
for I will turn their mourning into joy,
and will comfort them,
and make them rejoice from their sorrow.
Jer:31:14:
And I will satiate the soul of the priests with fatness,
and my people shall be satisfied with my goodness,
saith the LORD.
Jer:31:15:
Thus saith the LORD;
A voice was heard in Ramah,
lamentation,
and bitter weeping;
Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children,
because they were not.
Jer:31:16:
Thus saith the LORD;
Refrain thy voice from weeping,
and thine eyes from tears:
for thy work shall be rewarded,
saith the LORD;
and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
Jer:31:17:
And there is hope in thine end,
saith the LORD,
that thy children shall come again to their own border.]]

2Th 2:2
That ye be not soon shaken (5683) in mind, or be troubled (5745), neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand (5758).
eiv to mh taxewv saleuqhnai (5683) umav apo tou noov mhde qroeisqai (5745) mhte dia pneumatov mhte dia logou mhte di' epistolhv wv di' hmwn, wv oti enesthken (5758) h hmera tou kuriou.

[[ this day being defined by these verses;

2Th:2:3:
Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;
2Th:2:4:
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,
or that is worshipped;
so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
shewing himself that he is God.

2Th:2:8:
And then shall that Wicked be revealed,
whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth,
and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th:2:9:
Even him,
whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,]]

[CoreIssue]

Hi MHz,

1Co 1:8
Who shall also confirm (5692) you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
ov kai bebaiwsei (5692) umav ewv telouv anegklhtouv en th| hmera| tou kuriou hmwn Ihsou [Xristou].

[[the end being that last day before the kingdoms of the earth before they belong to the Lord, all other kingdoms have perished and no other kingdom will ever rise. The start of an eternal kingdom]]
We are confirmed until the end the second we repent and become saints. The end is never, eternity.

And thus will be found blameless on the DOTLJC.

Only Rome does note rise again. There are many nations on the earth during the MK. Including those who attacked Christ.

The MK is not the start of the Eternal Kingdom. The Eternal Kingdom exists now.

And if you mean Eternal physical Kingdom, that does not begin until after the MK on the New Earth.

1Co 5:5
To deliver (5629) such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved (5686) in the day of the Lord Jesus.
paradounai (5629) ton toiouton tw| Satana| eiv oleqron thv sarkov, ina to pneuma swqh| (5686) en th| hmera| tou kuriou.

[[ to be delivered to Satan would mean Satan has to actually be there to destroy the flesh, refers to the 42 given months]]
The context here of who is being handed to Satan has nothing to do with the Trib or any such thing. It was a historical person dealt with back then.

Satan roams the earth at will. Also, he deals via demons and humans. So actually no requirement for him to be on the earth to accomplish this. And no requirement for this to be in the Trib.

Again, a historical event.
2Co 1:14
As also ye have acknowledged (5627) us in part, that we are (5748) your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus.
kaqwv kai epegnwte (5627) hmav apo merouv, oti kauxhma umwn esmen (5748) kaqaper kai umeiv hmwn en th| hmera| tou kuriou [hmwn] Ihsou.

[[ Resurrection right after the destruction of the wicked;
Does not say that.
Jer:31:1:
At the same time,
saith the LORD,
will I be the God of all the families of Israel,
and they shall be my people.
Jer:31:2:
Thus saith the LORD,
The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness;
even Israel,
when I went to cause him to rest.


Israel, and a veiled message about ‘the rest’.;
Out of context addition. Does not refer to the that day.

Jer:31:11:
For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob,
and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he.
Jer:31:12:
Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion,
and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD,
for wheat,
and for wine,
and for oil,
and for the young of the flock and of the herd:
and their soul shall be as a watered garden;
and they shall not sorrow any more at all.
Jer:31:13:
Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance,
both young men and old together:
for I will turn their mourning into joy,
and will comfort them,
and make them rejoice from their sorrow.
Jer:31:14:
And I will satiate the soul of the priests with fatness,
and my people shall be satisfied with my goodness,
saith the LORD.
Jer:31:15:
Thus saith the LORD;
A voice was heard in Ramah,
lamentation,
and bitter weeping;
Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children,
because they were not.
Jer:31:16:
Thus saith the LORD;
Refrain thy voice from weeping,
and thine eyes from tears:
for thy work shall be rewarded,
saith the LORD;
and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
Jer:31:17:
And there is hope in thine end,
saith the LORD,
that thy children shall come again to their own border.]]

Absolute zero support for you position.

Gathering of living Israel is not the Rapture.
2Th 2:2
That ye be not soon shaken (5683) in mind, or be troubled (5745), neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand (5758).
eiv to mh taxewv saleuqhnai (5683) umav apo tou noov mhde qroeisqai (5745) mhte dia pneumatov mhte dia logou mhte di' epistolhv wv di' hmwn, wv oti enesthken (5758) h hmera tou kuriou.

[[ this day being defined by these verses;

2Th:2:3:
Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;
2Th:2:4:
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,
or that is worshipped;
so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
shewing himself that he is God.

Yep. The Falling Away is happening now. Thus that part is being fulfilled now.

And the AC is revealed when the Church is Raptured at the removal of the Restrainer (Holy Spirit.) Demands Pre-Trib.
2Th:2:8:
And then shall that Wicked be revealed,
whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth,
and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th:2:9:
Even him,
whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,]]
Yep. Which does not demand the 3rd Woe.

The demon in the AC is quite able to do miraculous things after the ways of Satan.

Now, put the declared sequence together for clarity.
1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him,
Subject is Rapture.
we ask you, brothers, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come)
The Rapture will not occur until a certain sequence is fulfilled.
until the rebellion occurs
Falling Away happens first by the Greek.

It is happening now.
and the man of lawlessness[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20th%202&version=31#fen-NIV-29649a)] is revealed,
AC is revealed. A man. Not Satan, not a nation or any other such thing. But a man. And is the First Seal with the Peace Treaty as also declared by Daniel in the 70th Week.
the man doomed to destruction.
He goes to his destruction at the Second Coming. Not later but at the Second Coming.
4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped,
He does this for the full Trib.
so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
He does this at Mid.

5Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.
The Holy Spirit. The Restrainer.
7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work;
Lawlessness is already at work. It is restrained in degree now. It does not need Satan to begin it. There are and have been man ac's already.
but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.
Personage. The Holy Spirit. When he goes we have to go because he is in the Church saints.
8And then the lawless one will be revealed,
Revealed immediately. No waiting time. First Seal is on the heels of the Rapture.
whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.
Second Coming. Clearly different from the Rapture and after his 7 years.
9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing.
Such has been happening throughout history. Nothing new in the Trib but a vast increase in scale when the Restrainer is removed. Even greater during Satan's 42 months.
They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
In spite of the Two Witnesses, the Seals, Rapture and so on they just will not repent.
11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
And this is fact now and from the First Seal on. Millions upon millions die in the Seals. And by the end of the Trib 2/3 of the earth's population is dead.

So the Falling Away will continue, then the Restrainer must be removed which demands Rapture so the AC can be revealed at the First Seal.

The AC is already here with his demon.

[MHz]

Hi Core,

Falling away,

Thayer's Lexicon
Falling away from true religion

Strongs
646. apostasia ap-os-tas-ee'-ah feminine of the same as 647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):--falling away, forsake.

That there are various doctrines would support that this has happened in part.

The Apostles taught one version, the true version.

"And the AC is revealed when the Church is Raptured at the removal of the Restrainer (Holy Spirit.) Demands Pre-Trib."

Rendering prayer useless right? Prayer is never useless. No Holy Spirit=No prayers heard.


"Quote:
5Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.
The Holy Spirit. The Restrainer."

It is a 'what' not a 'who', 'what' is two events, falling away from true religion (as taught by the Apostles, fully qualified as being today), the second event is the revealing of the man of sin, he is revealed when he is sitting in God's temple claiming to be God. This man of sin is destroyed right then and there, there is no gap of years here, you put them in there.

[CoreIssue]

Hi MHz,



"And the AC is revealed when the Church is Raptured at the removal of the Restrainer (Holy Spirit.) Demands Pre-Trib."

Rendering prayer useless right? Prayer is never useless. No Holy Spirit=No prayers heard.
Wrong. God hears all.

But God said in Daniel he turns the saints over to Satan. And John says they die in uncountable multitudes.

You are trying to manuever around the facts.

By your logic 10s of millioins of saints should never have died under the RCC in the Inquisition.

Prayer is never useless unless it is false. And even if true and in God's will it may not get answered in the desired time frame.


"Quote:
5Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.
The Holy Spirit. The Restrainer."

It is a 'what' not a 'who', 'what' is two events, falling away from true religion (as taught by the Apostles, fully qualified as being today), the second event is the revealing of the man of sin, he is revealed when he is sitting in God's temple claiming to be God. This man of sin is destroyed right then and there, there is no gap of years here, you put them in there.

Now read the rest I posted and check the language. Personage, specifically masculine.

The Restrainer is a "he." The ONE who holds back. Not the what.

The what that holds back is a he.

[MHz]

Hi MHz,
Wrong. God hears all.
But God said in Daniel he turns the saints over to Satan. And John says they die in uncountable multitudes.
You are trying to manuever around the facts.
By your logic 10s of millioins of saints should never have died under the RCC in the Inquisition.
Prayer is never useless unless it is false. And even if true and in God's will it may not get answered in the desired time frame.
Now read the rest I posted and check the language. Personage, specifically masculine.
The Restrainer is a "he." The ONE who holds back. Not the what.
The what that holds back is a he.

You have removed an important part of the prayer process.

Eph:6:18: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Jude:1:20: But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

2Th:2:7: .....only he who now letteth will let, .....

M't:24:36: But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

2Th:2:7: ...until he be taken out of the way.

the man of sin.

[CoreIssue]

You have removed an important part of the prayer process.

Eph:6:18: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Jude:1:20: But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

2Th:2:7: .....only he who now letteth will let, .....

M't:24:36: But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

2Th:2:7: ...until he be taken out of the way.

So now you qualify it? It has to be by an exacting formula to count?

Before you had all saints protected in the Trib.

Yes, Pre-Trib. When no one knows the day or hour. When the world is going about its normal business then the saints get removed and the world slammed. As in the Flood and Sodom and Gomorrah.

[MHz]

So now you qualify it? It has to be by an exacting formula to count?

Before you had all saints protected in the Trib.

Yes, Pre-Trib. When no one knows the day or hour. When the world is going about its normal business then the saints get removed and the world slammed. As in the Flood and Sodom and Gomorrah.

I used the word 'believers'

[CoreIssue]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreIssue
So now you qualify it? It has to be by an exacting formula to count?

Before you had all saints protected in the Trib.

Yes, Pre-Trib. When no one knows the day or hour. When the world is going about its normal business then the saints get removed and the world slammed. As in the Flood and Sodom and Gomorrah.


I used the word 'believers'
Believers always means saints in the Bible.
If you have been reading it to contextually mean otherwise you have been wrong.

[MHz]

Quote:

Believers always means saints in the Bible.
If you have been reading it to contextually mean otherwise you have been wrong.

Re:11:18: ...thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets,
and to the saints,
and them that fear thy name,
small and great; ....

Believers can be 'them that fear thy name', they recieve a reward. A saint would be others, like ones that Christ has actually appointed a certain task for them to perform, like witnessing for some days.

[CoreIssue]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreIssue
Quote:

Believers always means saints in the Bible.
If you have been reading it to contextually mean otherwise you have been wrong.


Re:11:18: ...thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets,
and to the saints,
and them that fear thy name,
small and great; ....

Believers can be 'them that fear thy name', they recieve a reward. A saint would be others, like ones that Christ has actually appointed a certain task for them to perform, like witnessing for some days.
You cannot show me a single usage of believers that does not mean saint.

Saint means the saved. Always has and always will.

Put that verse back into full context and it does not say what your extract implies.

18"And (AS (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%2011;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30892AS))the nations were enraged, and (AT (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%2011;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30892AT))Your wrath came, and (AU (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%2011;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30892AU))the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your (AV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%2011;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30892AV))bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, (AW (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%2011;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30892AW))the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."

This is the 7th Trumpet. God is cleaning house to prepare for the MK and past it.

We see sorting here. Dead saints, dead lost, living saint, living that are not saints but fear God and living lost bound for destruction.

In the bowls some of those who fear will be saved, some will make it through and enter the MK without having taken the mark.

It does not say in any form anyone will or can be saved after death. Only the spirits of saints will enter Heaven and be seen in the Great Multitude.

There is no such thing as an intermediate state between saint and lost for the dead.

[MHz]

You cannot show me a single usage of believers that does not mean saint.

Saint means the saved. Always has and always will.

By your own defination you are above a saint, these rewards are handed out to people (saints included) only after the 7th trump.
You would consider being taken to heaven as a reward I take it?

The last verse in this passage uses the words saint and believer, yet by your claim there is no difference, that this occurs only at, and not before, is a point that should not be overlooked (even though it will be by you). It even gives a defination of what a believer is, somebody who believes the written Gospel;

2Th:1:7: And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th:1:8: In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th:1:9: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th:1:10: When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

[CoreIssue]

Quote:
You cannot show me a single usage of believers that does not mean saint.

Saint means the saved. Always has and always will.


By your own defination you are above a saint, these rewards are handed out to people (saints included) only after the 7th trump.
False. Never had given any room for such a statement.

Every repentent from Adam on is a saint. Regardless of gifts, mission, purpose, learning or any other theing. There are only saints and the lost after death. Only saints and the unrepentent during life.

No other category.

In the Trib there are two groups of saints as regards the flesh. That being Jewish and the others, as in Gentiles.

Spiritually the are all equally saints because there is no such things as degrees of salvatiion. Either you are or you are not saved.

You would consider being taken to heaven as a reward I take it?
Nope.

We go to Heaven because we are saved. We are rewarded becuase of our work for God.
Salvation is a gift via true repentence. Rewards are earned by doing true works for God.

The last verse in this passage uses the words saint and believer, yet by your claim there is no difference, that this occurs only at, and not before, is a point that should not be overlooked (even though it will be by you). It even gives a defination of what a believer is, somebody who believes the written Gospel;
No. I have not overlooked anything you have said. But you sure have dodged many verses I have posted.

2Th:1:7: And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th:1:8: In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th:1:9: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th:1:10: When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


5All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

Helps to look at this in clearer English.

At the Second Coming Christ comes to Israel, his holy people. At which time ALL who believe will marvel at him, including the saints who lived before and are then already Raptured, glorified and rewarded.

You forget Israel is restored as his Holy People at the Second Coming and believers include more than Israel.

Here is the cross reference verse to add to this point.


Isaiah 49:3




3He said to Me, "(A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Is 49:3; John 17:10; 1 Thess 2:12&version=49#cen-NASB-18640A))You are My Servant, Israel,
(B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Is 49:3; John 17:10; 1 Thess 2:12&version=49#cen-NASB-18640B))In Whom I will show My glory."


Again, believers always means saint in the Bible.

[MHz]

Spiritually the are all equally saints because there is no such things as degrees of salvatiion. Either you are or you are not saved.

Really?
M't:5:19: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

[MHz]

You would consider being taken to heaven as a reward I take it?
Nope.
On that note I'm outta here.


As a closing note this is how I came to be a believer. True story for what it's worth.

I started of with the Lord's Prayer and just as I was about to start my plea I got a vision that I was outside my body and saw myself, from the back and above, in a kneeling position with a mist a very short distance in front of me that obscured any further view.
I heard myself say "Master, I don't feel so good." A large hand came out of the mist and completely enclosed my body. This happened in a 'twinkling of an eye', I found myself enclosed in this hand and it scared me to no end because I struggled to be free of it's grasp but found I could move not even one little bit. This feeling of being scared lasted only for the briefest of moments.
What replaced it was the most peacefull feeling I have ever experienced, bar none, and to be quite truthfull have not experienced that 'level' of peace since.
As soon as this wave of peace (meaning I was in the company of someone who cared for me much more than my words will ever be able to describe)) overcame me the hand loosed it 'grip' on me and it opened and I found myself sitting on this palm facing the ends of the fingers and seeing further foreward than that.
In front was a hallway, very tall and the walls were black. The walls were not smooth, but rather, had many indentations and sharp corners at these indentations. There was a faint light at each of these “
'corners' and that was the only way I could tell the walls were not smooth, the rest was pitch black, I could see neither floor nor ceiling, only these faint corners.
We were moving down this hallway at a liesurely rate and as I was feeling very 'relaxed' I was going to change my sitting position so I had my hands behind my back and then I could lean back and rest on them. As I was leaning back one hand seemed to miss the expected surface that would support it and I ended up rolling to one side. I looked back to see what had 'gone wrong' and I observed a great hole in the palm of this hand. I imediately burst into tears and said with alarm "You've been hurt!"
I heard not a word but my tears left me and I spent the next few moments crawling around the hand, much like I did on the school-ground equipment when I was a small child.
This hallway had corners in addition to the indentations in that it was not straight as we have halls. We came around one corner and off to the right I could see a faint glow of light some distance down this other smaller hallway.
I asked "What's down there?" A voice (rather deep but very 'soothing') answered "You're not ready for this, but I will show you."
Off we went down this other hallway going around gently curving corners and the light got brighter with each corner we passed. In very short order we came out on a dusty,earthen path and I could see a sky. This path was rather narrow, enough width for one small car, and had grass growing on either edge.
On the grass to the left there were several rabbits hopping around, a few bounds then they would stop and nibble the grass, a few more bounds, another nibble. Our presence did not disturb them in the least.
Just behind the rabbits, only a few yards from the path, was what I would best describe would be a three-wire barbed fence, not in the best of repair as the wire sagged a bit between the posts and none of the posts stood up properly but were tilted a bit at various angles.
A bit of distance from this was another fence made of planking, much like you would find around any farm that kept horses or cows, and behind were some farm buildings, house and small barn made of the same wood as the plank fence.
All the wood was very weathered but the condition of the buildings and fence would not warrant paint as this would be a waste because of their condition.
As I looked over at this scene I noticed several dogs in the yard. There was much running and yelping and much dust from all this activity. I could not determine if this activity was caused by our presence or not and if, in fact, the dogs were playing or it was a somewhat more serious matter they were involved in. The circles they made were small and done in quick fashion so in the short time I observed them they completed many circles.
The path we were on also had the gentle twists and turns like the hallways we had just came from did. We continued down this dusty path and came around another corner and came to a stop. The path ended here and was replaced by a large open space covered in lush grass, a short distance from us I could see gently rolling hill. I could see far enough to see three or four 'rows' of these hills, one behind the other. Very beautiful and serine but what was most astounding about these hills was that they were completely covered by people, standing so closely together that not one more person could have stood with them. There was a small open space between where the path ended and this large crowd stood, which is how I knew the grass was so lush.
On this grass, about midway between the end of the path and where the crowd started stood two people, one man, one woman. As remarkable as this whole scene was I was still even more astounded to see not one strand of hair on any of their heads, not one anywhere.
The two in front spoke no words but it was quite plain they were pleased to see 'Him'. No words were spoken to any from 'Him' either.
We turned and went back from wher we had came. Back into the little hallway till we turned left at the larger one.
We continued down this for some distance until we came to a doorway that was on our left.
I heard a voice say "This is a safe place for you."
The door opened and I went inside to a circular room about 50 steps in width. The room was decorated in many shades of brown and the 'outer wall' had shelves that went way round all filled with books. The middle had furnishings that matched the colors of the bookcases.
The door closed and I was alone.
I stood for a moment and went to the door and opened it just a crack. What I felt was sheer terror, and quickly reclosed the door and felt the terror was gone, as long as the door remained closed.
What was outside was not only terror but evil in that it had nothing good planned for me should I be foolish enough to open my door and go into the passage on my own.
I woke up at point.
It never happened again with this intensity.

Bye

[CoreIssue]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MHz
You would consider being taken to heaven as a reward I take it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreIssue
Nope.



On that note I'm outta here.

So, you believe you earn it? It is not a gift.

Hmmm. As CTZ noted, you don't seem to think repentence is enough.

As for the vision. Very strange and bears no resemblance to anything in the Bible.

I looked back to see what had 'gone wrong' and I observed a great hole in the palm of this hand. I imediately burst into tears and said with alarm "You've been hurt!"
Most assuredly not from God on this point alone.

Christ was not nailed through the palm of the hands but the wrists. In the hand will not bear the weight of a body. And Hand in Greek includes the wrist.

If this is the source of your beliefs then no wonder you are not getting it right.

[eahaddix]

As a closing note this is how I came to be a believer. True story for what it's worth.

I started of with the Lord's Prayer and just as I was about to start my plea I got a vision that[...]

Greetings in the name of Christ Jesus.

Scripture commands us to test everything (1 Thessalonians 5:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Thessalonians%205:21;&version=31;)), including the spirits (1 John 4:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%204:1;&version=31;)). Have you done this, or did you simply accept this "vision"?

Metaphorical imagery that lacks an authoritative interpretation is meaningless, yet contains dangerous potential. Specifically, such undefined imagery encourages the unthinking individual to "shoehorn" subjective personal interpretations into the undefined imagery. As a result, one can create a cycle of self-deception, courtesy of deceiving spirits who "plant seeds."

It never happened again with this intensity.

Bye

Hold on a second. Did you receive more visions?

[eahaddix]

Spiritually the are all equally saints because there is no such things as degrees of salvatiion. Either you are or you are not saved.
Really?
M't:5:19: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

How do you know that Matthew 5:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:19;&version=31;) refers to salvation, as opposed to rewards?

[MHz]

How do you know that Matthew 5:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:19;&version=31;) refers to salvation, as opposed to rewards?

That this person is in Heaven would indicate salvation for this person, being the least means they are not given the same 'rewards' as one who is called ''great'.

[eahaddix]

That this person is in Heaven would indicate salvation for this person, being the least means they are not given the same 'rewards' as one who is called ''great'.

Hold on a second. Are you equating "rewards" with "degrees of salvation"?

[MHz]

Hold on a second. Are you equating "rewards" with "degrees of salvation"?
Hi LuckyStrike,
Scripture determines if there is a relation to the rewards a person recieves based on their 'behaviour'. The verse that preceeds states this;
M't:5:18:
For verily I say unto you,
Till heaven and earth pass,
one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law,
till all be fulfilled.

It is loyality to the Law that determines if a person is considered 'least' or 'great' when they are in Heaven. If salvation was the determining factor then anyone who teaches 'unlawfull things' would never see Heaven.

It is more a matter of degrees of rewards. Salvation is salvation, you either are or you are not saved.

Compare the 'rewards' to those in Re:20:6 to another group. The ones in 20:6 would seem to qualify as these people;

Re:22:3: And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

The above would seem to fit those who are priests to God and the Lamb, the ones called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

The least would be 'doing other things';
Isa:65:21:
And they shall build houses,
and inhabit them;
and they shall plant vineyards,
and eat the fruit of them.
Isa:65:22:
They shall not build,
and another inhabit;
they shall not plant,
and another eat:
for as the days of a tree are the days of my people,
and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Isa:65:23:
They shall not labour in vain,
nor bring forth for trouble;
for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD,
and their offspring with them.
Isa:65:24:
And it shall come to pass,
that before they call,
I will answer;
and while they are yet speaking,
I will hear.
Isa:65:25:
The wolf and the lamb shall feed together,
and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock:
and dust shall be the serpent's meat.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain,
saith the LORD.

Vs:12-16 would seem to indicate the 'they' are not the ones call 'servants' in those verses. If this were the 'servants' then verse 16 would be a forgetting of their deeds and works. The verses above do not seem to be the same 'reward' as is set for these;
Re:7:14:
And I said unto him,
Sir,
thou knowest.
And he said to me,
These are they which came out of great tribulation,
and have washed their robes,
and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Re:7:15:
Therefore are they before the throne of God,
and serve him day and night in his temple:
and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Now the above seems to fit with what a priest to God and the Lamb would be doing, not building houses, New Jerusalem is their house trhey aren't out tending to the beasts of the fields.