Day of the Lord

[CoreIssue]

DOTL - Hebrew and Greek Exact Phrase Verses
There have been so many claims, points, doctrines, positions expressed on the Day of the Lord, I thought it would be good to even test my own position against what the verses that expressly stated DOTL in the Hebrew and Greek.

I will admit a couple of my thoughts went down the drain. While no damage to my overall beliefs on the issue, there was change.

I used the Interlinear to search out the Hebrew and Greek. In the Hebrew the term DOTL is "hwhy ewy" and in the Greek is "hmera kuriou" as used in the Interlinear data base. These are the verses where the exact term DOTL is used:

Isaiah 13: 6
Joel 1: 15
Joel 3: 14
Amos 5: 18
Amos 5: 20
Zephaniah 1: 7
Zephaniah 1: 14
Malachi 4: 15
1 Thessalonians 5: 2
2 Peter 3: 10

And those are the ONLY verses it is used in per the Interlinear original language database.

Now, I know some will wish to immediately launch into pulling in other verses to support his doctrine. But, for here, I am only looking at these specific verses to establish the Biblical foundation for the term DOTL. You should do the same. If they will not support your doctrine all the other verses in the Bible will not make your doctrine correct.

There are too many verses to do a full post of every verse plus all the Interlinear word definitions. So, I will only post the key issues within each set of verses.

ISAIAH 13: 6

Isaiah 13 is the battle of Armageddon. I do not think there is really any need to expound here. So, the Second Coming is in the Day of the Lord.

JOEL 1: 15

Joel 1 is talking about the Great Tribulation. Look at:
1. Verse 6 is the AC at the Mid. He is spoken of in the past tense.
2. Verses 7 through 14 and 16 on continue to be past tense. And they are issues of the Mid and the Great Trib.
3. Verse 15 contain the DOTL. Now, look at the definition of day. Day is not limited to a 24 hour period. Hand means near. But, does it mean near in the sense of yet to come or near in the sense of completion? Remember the previous verses are all past tense? Well the tense changes in verse 15 to:
Qal
Qal is the most frequently used verb pattern. It expresses the "simple" or "casual" action of the root in the active voice.
Examples:
he sat, he ate, he went, he said, he rose, he bought
This form accounts for 66.7% of the verbs parsed.

Word Mood
Imperfect
The imperfect expresses an action, process or condition which is incomplete, and it has a wide range of meaning:

It is used to describe a single (as opposed to a repeated) action in the past; it differs from the perfect in being more vivid and pictorial. The perfect expresses the "fact", the imperfect adds colour and movement by suggesting the "process" preliminary to its completion.
he put forth his hand to the door
it came to a halt
I began to hear

A phrase such as "What seekest thou?", refers not only to the present, but assumes that the search has continued for some time.
Why do you weep?
Why refuse to eat?
Why are you distressed?

These relate not so much as to one occasion, as to a continued condition.

The kind of progression or imperfection and unfinished condition of the action may consist in its frequent repetition.
In the present:
it is "said" today
a wise son "maketh glad" his father

In the past:
"and so he did" - regularly, year by year
a mist "used to go up"
the fish which "we used to eat"
the manna "came down" - regularly
he "spoke" - repeatedly

The imperfect is used to express the "future", referring not only to an action which is about to be accomplished but one which has not yet begun:
This may be a future from the point of view of the real present; as:
Now "shalt thou see what I will do"
"We will burn" thy house

It may be a future from any other point of view assumed; as:
he took his son that "was to reign"
she stayed to see what "should be done"

The usage of 3b may be taken as the transitive to a common use of the imperfect in which it serves for an expression of those shades of relation among acts and thoughts for which English prefers the conditional moods. Such actions are strictly "future" in reference to the assumed point of relation, and the simple imperfect sufficiently expresses them; e.g.
of every tree thou "mayest eat"
"could we know"
he "would" say

The imperfect follows particles expressing "transition", "purpose", "result" and so forth as, "in order that", "lest"; e.g.
say thou art my sister, "that it may be well with thee"
let us deal wisely with the nation, "lest it multiplies"

When however there is a strong feeling of "purpose", or when it is meant to be strongly marked, then of course the moods are employed; e.g.
raise me up "that I may requite them"
who will entice Ahab "that he may go up"
what shall we do "that the sea may be calm"

So, I can hear Post saying "See, future event yet to come" is part of the definition. Yes, the usage allows for that but it is used in reference here to destruction that is already happened and is still happening. You cannot claim a future start to what is already in progress.

The usage here is clearly referring to the concluding of what begun at the Mid as regards Israel. Note, Israel, not the whole world. To attempt to assign meaning of future only to one sentence in the middle of a whole chapter dealing with destruction is not a viable or logical assertion.

Verse 15 talks about what is and its future conclusion. The whole GT is the DOTL.

JOEL 3: 14

Joel 3 is again referring to the GT. Verse 1 is again the Mid. In those days and at that time they will again go into captivity. And the description continues through verse 6.

And what is one of the things he does during that time and in the first 6 verses? Verse 2 says he "also" gathers them to the battle of Armageddon, which is the Second Coming.

Verses 7 on say how God responds to the actions of the AC and the nations.

And in verse 14 he calls this "time" referred to in verse 1 the DOTL. Look at the definition of "day". "Time" is a definition.

Again, you cannot strip one verse out of the passage and assign it a different meaning than the rest of the passage. Especially when the verses constitute a continuous flow of one subject.

AMOS 5: 18, 20

Amos 5 talks about issues in Israel and with the Jews. It says woe to those who wish for the DOTL. That day will be dark, not light.

First point is that day does not always mean 24 hours. It also means a specific period of defined time.

Second, darkness means:
darkness, obscurity
a. darkness
b. secret place
Read the descriptions of the destruction that hits the earth during the Trib. If you are aware of what such destruction would do to the atmosphere, then you know there are not going to be bright sun shiny days. There will be a lot of particulates in the air making the world a much darker place. Visions will be obscured. If you are not aware of what will happen due to the destruction God sends, then you need to study up on it the issues.

So, the issue of darkening the sky will not be limited to one day.

ZEPHANIAH 1: 7, 14

Zephaniah 1 Read the chapter and then read the Trumpets and Bowls of Revelation. The Great Trib again. And again the DOTL is term used to cover the whole chapter. Again, you cannot split it out of the flow of the whole chapter.

MALACHI 4: 5

Malachi 4 is a warning against the DOTL. And note two things:
1. Elijah will be sent before the DOTL. So, he cannot be sent during the GT because that is during the DOTL.
2. It says if Israel does not turn back to God because of Elijah God will strike Israel with a curse. The Two Witnesses come in the first half of the Trib. Israel does not turn back to God, meaning Christ. So, he strikes Israel with the curse of the DOTL, which is the GT which ends at the Second Coming, where they do turn to Christ.


Now, before moving on it is important to say that these verses deal with Israel and the Jews, not the Gentile Church. There is no mention of the Rapture here. No mention of coming as a thief in the night. None at all. Nor how the DOTL would impact the whole world. So, as regards the Jews, the DOTL begins Mid Trib and ends at the Second Coming.

1 THESSALONIANS 5: 2

1 Thessalonians 4: 13 through 5: 11 is the Rapture. Now here we have the introduction of thief in the night. And the Rapture is called DOTL. Plus, destruction immediately follows.

So, while the DOTL begins for Israel at the Mid, it begins for the Church at the Rapture/Revealing of the AC/Appearance of the Two Witnesses.

2 PETER 3: 10

2 Peter 3
6
By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed.
7
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Here is a clear declaration of the heavens and the earth being reserved for destruction.

Now a lot say this is referring to the Flood. I disagree. I firmly believe this refers to the destruction of Gen 1: 2.

Now, moving on:
10
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.[1]
11
Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
12
as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.[2] That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.

Now, in the KJV for reference to the Interlinear:

10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Verse 10;
PASS AWAY:
to go past, pass by
of persons moving forward
to pass by
of time
an act continuing for a time
metaph.
to pass away, peris
to pass by (pass over), that is, to neglect, omit, (transgress)
to be led by, to be carried past, be averted
to come near, come forward, arrive

**PASS AWAY MEANS TO PERISH. THE HEAVENS WILL PERISH.

ELEMENTS:
any first thing, from which the others belonging to some series or composite whole take their rise, an element, first principal
the letters of the alphabet as the elements of speech, not however the written characters, but the spoken sounds
the elements from which all things have come, the material causes of the universe
the heavenly bodies, either as parts of the heavens or (as others think) because in them the elements of man, life and destiny were supposed to reside
the elements, rudiments, primary and fundamental principles of any art, science, or discipline
i.e. of mathematics, Euclid's geometry

**THE VERY PARTICLES FROM WHICH THE HEAVENS ARE MADE.

MELT:
to loose any person (or thing) tied or fastened
bandages of the feet, the shoes,
of a husband and wife joined together by the bond of matrimony
of a single man, whether he has already had a wife or has not yet married
to loose one bound, i.e. to unbind, release from bonds, set free
of one bound up (swathed in bandages)
bound with chains (a prisoner), discharge from prison, let go
to loosen, undo, dissolve, anything bound, tied, or compacted together
an assembly, i.e. to dismiss, break up
laws, as having a binding force, are likened to bonds
to annul, subvert
to do away with, to deprive of authority, whether by precept or act
to declare unlawful
to loose what is compacted or built together, to break up, demolish, destroy
to dissolve something coherent into parts, to destroy
metaph., to overthrow, to do away with

**THAT WHICH BINDS THE COMPONENT PARTS OF THE HEAVENS TOGETHER WILL BECOME UNBOUND. THE VERY FABRIC OF THE HEAVENS WILL DISSOLVE.

EARTH ALSO:
and, also, even, indeed, but

**ALL THAT HAPPENS TO THE HEAVENS WILL HAPPEN TO THE EARTH.

BURNED UP:
to burn up, consume by fire

**SEE MELT.

Verse 11:
DISSOLVE:
to loose any person (or thing) tied or fastened
bandages of the feet, the shoes,
of a husband and wife joined together by the bond of matrimony
of a single man, whether he has already had a wife or has not yet married
to loose one bound, i.e. to unbind, release from bonds, set free
of one bound up (swathed in bandages)
bound with chains (a prisoner), discharge from prison, let go
to loosen, undo, dissolve, anything bound, tied, or compacted together
an assembly, i.e. to dismiss, break up
laws, as having a binding force, are likened to bonds
to annul, subvert
to do away with, to deprive of authority, whether by precept or act
to declare unlawful
to loose what is compacted or built together, to break up, demolish, destroy
to dissolve something coherent into parts, to destroy
metaph., to overthrow, to do away with
**IDENTICAL MEANING TO MELT. ALL THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH ARE MELTED, DISSOLVED.

Verse 12:
FIRE:
to burn with fire, to set on fire, kindle
to be on fire, to burn
to be incensed, indignant
make to glow
full of fire, fiery, ignited 1b
of darts filled with inflammable substances and set on fire
melted by fire and purged of dross

**CROSS REFERENCE WITH MELT.

DISSOLVED, ELEMENTS, MELT:

**DEFINITIONS ALREADY GIVEN. AGAIN, TOTAL DESTRUCTION OF THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH.

HEAT:
to burn up, set fire to
to suffer with feverish burning, be parched with fever

All meanings are very clear. This is the end of the world. Total final destruction of the present heavens and the earth. And it is a single presentation to both Jews and Gentiles.

So, here is what I see the verses saying:
1. The Rapture starts the DOTL. It comes like a thief in the night.
2. Elijah comes before the DOTL as regards Israel.
3. The sudden destruction strikes all the earth but Israel in the form of the Seals. Gentiles enter DOTL.
4. Israel rejects the efforts of the Elijah to get them to turn to Christ.
5. God sends a curse on Israel, the DOTL.
6. The DOTL contains the AC invasion at the Mid for Israel.
7. The DOTL curse contains the events described in the Trumpets and Bowls.
8. The DOTL curse ends with the Second Coming where Israel accepts Christ and he comes as their savior and king at the Battle of Armageddon.
9. The DOTL continues through the MK where Christ rules the world with an iron scepter.
10. The DOTL ends with the destruction of the Heavens and the earth at the end of time.

[MHz]

'I will admit a couple of my thoughts went down the drain. While no damage to my overall beliefs on the issue, there was change.'

And these were which ones?

[MHz]

Hi Core,

ISAIAH 13: 6

Isaiah 13 is the battle of Armageddon. I do not think there is really any need to expound here. So, the Second Coming is in the Day of the Lord.

[[ Can’t argue this one for sure]]

JOEL 1: 15
[[Joe:1:15: Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
Destruction via the 7 plagues that make up the whole wrath of God;

Re:15:1:
And I saw another sign in heaven,
great and marvellous,
seven angels having the seven last plagues;
for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Re:15:7:
And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God,
who liveth for ever and ever.]]


Verse 15 talks about what is and its future conclusion. The whole GT is the DOTL.
[[part of an never ending day]]

JOEL 3: 14

Verse 2 says he "also" gathers them to the battle of Armageddon, which is the Second Coming.

[[and fights them in person]]


AMOS 5: 18, 20

Amos 5 talks about issues in Israel and with the Jews. It says woe to those who wish for the DOTL. That day will be dark, not light.

[[ like in the last of 3 woes, more about that day;

Am:9:11:
In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen,
and close up the breaches thereof;
and I will raise up his ruins,
and I will build it as in the days of old:

Am:9:14:
And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel,
and they shall build the waste cities,
and inhabit them;
and they shall plant vineyards,
and drink the wine thereof;
they shall also make gardens,
and eat the fruit of them.
Am:9:15:
And I will plant them upon their land,
and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them,
saith the LORD thy God.]]

So, the issue of darkening the sky will not be limited to one day.

[[Zec:14:7:
But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD,
not day,
nor night:
but it shall come to pass,
that at evening time it shall be light.]]

ZEPHANIAH 1: 7, 14

Zephaniah 1 Read the chapter and then read the Trumpets and Bowls of Revelation. The Great Trib again. And again the DOTL is term used to cover the whole chapter. Again, you cannot split it out of the flow of the whole chapter.

[[ the whole book is about this, all 3 chapters;

Zep:2:2:
Before the decree bring forth,
before the day pass as the chaff,
before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you,
before the day of the LORD's anger come upon you.
Zep:2:3:
Seek ye the LORD,
all ye meek of the earth,
which have wrought his judgment;
seek righteousness,
seek meekness:
it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD's anger.

Zep:3:8:
Therefore wait ye upon me,
saith the LORD,
until the day that I rise up to the prey:
for my determination is to gather the nations,
that I may assemble the kingdoms,
to pour upon them mine indignation,
even all my fierce anger:
for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.
Zep:3:9:
For then will I turn to the people a pure language,
that they may all call upon the name of the LORD,
to serve him with one consent.
Zep:3:10:
From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia my suppliants,
even the daughter of my dispersed,
shall bring mine offering.
Zep:3:11:
In that day shalt thou not be ashamed for all thy doings,
wherein thou hast transgressed against me:
for then I will take away out of the midst of thee them that rejoice in thy pride,
and thou shalt no more be haughty because of my holy mountain.
]]

MALACHI 4: 5

Malachi 4 is a warning against the DOTL. And note two things:
1. Elijah will be sent before the DOTL. So, he cannot be sent during the GT because that is during the DOTL.
2. It says if Israel does not turn back to God because of Elijah God will strike Israel with a curse. The Two Witnesses come in the first half of the Trib. Israel does not turn back to God, meaning Christ. So, he strikes Israel with the curse of the DOTL, which is the GT which ends at the Second Coming, where they do turn to Christ.

[[ it says the earth will be struck with a curse, not just Israel.
Destruction of the wicked, believers are untouched;
Mal:4:1:
For,
behold,
the day cometh,
that shall burn as an oven;
and all the proud,
yea,
and all that do wickedly,
shall be stubble:
and the day that cometh shall burn them up,
saith the LORD of hosts,
that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal:4:2:
But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings;
and ye shall go forth,
and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal:4:3:
And ye shall tread down the wicked;
for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this,
saith the LORD of hosts.]]


1 THESSALONIANS 5: 2

1 Thessalonians 4: 13 through 5: 11 is the Rapture. Now here we have the introduction of thief in the night. And the Rapture is called DOTL. Plus, destruction immediately follows.

So, while the DOTL begins for Israel at the Mid, it begins for the Church at the Rapture/Revealing of the AC/Appearance of the Two Witnesses.

[[ now it seems to me that you are saying believers are taken out of the world and destruction for the rest right after, so much for your allowing others to be gathered for anything but destruction]]


2 PETER 3: 10

7
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Here is a clear declaration of the heavens and the earth being reserved for destruction.

[[Fire from Heaven at the end of Satan’s little season as in Vs:12 ‘day of God;
Isa:51:6:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
and look upon the earth beneath:
for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke,
and the earth shall wax old like a garment,
and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner:
but my salvation shall be for ever,
and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

Jude:1:4:
For there are certain men crept in unawares,
who were before of old ordained to this condemnation,
ungodly men,
turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness,
and denying the only Lord God,
and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jude:1:6:
And the angels which kept not their first estate,
but left their own habitation,
he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.]]

10
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.[1]

[[ 6th vial and then the verse you didn’t post the MK referenced to as one day brings you up to Satan’s little season and Vs:12 ‘day of God]]

11
Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
12
as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.[2] That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.

[[Re:20:11:
And I saw a great white throne,
and him that sat on it,
from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away;
and there was found no place for them.

You don’t include Judgement Day as part of the Lord’s Day

Heb:12:22:
But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb:12:23:
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb:12:24:
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,
and to the blood of sprinkling,
that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Heb:12:25:
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh.
For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth,
much more shall not we escape,
if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
Heb:12:26:
Whose voice then shook the earth:
but now he hath promised,
saying,
Yet once more I shake not the earth only,
but also heaven.
Heb:12:27:
And this word,
Yet once more,
signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken,
as of things that are made,
that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Heb:12:28:
Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved,
let us have grace,
whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Heb:12:29:
For our God is a consuming fire.

Nor do you include this as being a part of the Day of the Lord;

Re:22:4:
And they shall see his face;
and his name shall be in their foreheads.
Re:22:5:
And there shall be no night there;
and they need no candle,
neither light of the sun;
for the Lord God giveth them light:
and they shall reign for ever and ever.]]

[CoreIssue]

Hi MHz,

Hi Core,

ISAIAH 13: 6

Isaiah 13 is the battle of Armageddon. I do not think there is really any need to expound here. So, the Second Coming is in the Day of the Lord.

[[ Can’t argue this one for sure]]
OK

JOEL 1: 15
[[Joe:1:15: Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
Destruction via the 7 plagues that make up the whole wrath of God;
There is destruction in the Seals as well. And they are God's Seals.

Re:15:1:
And I saw another sign in heaven,
great and marvellous,
seven angels having the seven last plagues;
for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Re:15:7:
And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God,
who liveth for ever and ever.]]
Which skips over the issues of the Seals and Trumpets. There is wrath in them as well.

Verse 15 talks about what is and its future conclusion. The whole GT is the DOTL.
[[part of an never ending day]]
It ends. New Heavens and New Earth are not included in DOTL.

JOEL 3: 14

Verse 2 says he "also" gathers them to the battle of Armageddon, which is the Second Coming.

[[and fights them in person]]
Yes. And they are gathered to Armageddon in the 6th Bowl which is before the Second Coming and a lot more than 1 day. And is part of the Trib.

AMOS 5: 18, 20

Amos 5 talks about issues in Israel and with the Jews. It says woe to those who wish for the DOTL. That day will be dark, not light.

[[ like in the last of 3 woes, more about that day;
Does not make it one 24 hour day.

Am:9:11:
In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen,
and close up the breaches thereof;
and I will raise up his ruins,
and I will build it as in the days of old:

After the Second Coming in the MK.
Am:9:14:
And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel,
and they shall build the waste cities,
and inhabit them;
and they shall plant vineyards,
and drink the wine thereof;
they shall also make gardens,
and eat the fruit of them.
Am:9:15:
And I will plant them upon their land,
and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them,
saith the LORD thy God.]]

Second Coming and after.

[[Zec:14:7:
But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD,
not day,
nor night:
but it shall come to pass,
that at evening time it shall be light.]]

Does not make DOTL one 24 hour day.
ZEPHANIAH 1: 7, 14

Zephaniah 1 Read the chapter and then read the Trumpets and Bowls of Revelation. The Great Trib again. And again the DOTL is term used to cover the whole chapter. Again, you cannot split it out of the flow of the whole chapter.

[[ the whole book is about this, all 3 chapters;

Zep:2:2:
Before the decree bring forth,
before the day pass as the chaff,
before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you,
before the day of the LORD's anger come upon you.
Zep:2:3:
Seek ye the LORD,
all ye meek of the earth,
which have wrought his judgment;
seek righteousness,
seek meekness:
it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD's anger.

Zep:3:8:
Therefore wait ye upon me,
saith the LORD,
until the day that I rise up to the prey:
for my determination is to gather the nations,
that I may assemble the kingdoms,
to pour upon them mine indignation,
even all my fierce anger:
for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.
Zep:3:9:
For then will I turn to the people a pure language,
that they may all call upon the name of the LORD,
to serve him with one consent.
Zep:3:10:
From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia my suppliants,
even the daughter of my dispersed,
shall bring mine offering.
Zep:3:11:
In that day shalt thou not be ashamed for all thy doings,
wherein thou hast transgressed against me:
for then I will take away out of the midst of thee them that rejoice in thy pride,
and thou shalt no more be haughty because of my holy mountain.
]]


And all is DOTL
MALACHI 4: 5

Malachi 4 is a warning against the DOTL. And note two things:
1. Elijah will be sent before the DOTL. So, he cannot be sent during the GT because that is during the DOTL.
2. It says if Israel does not turn back to God because of Elijah God will strike Israel with a curse. The Two Witnesses come in the first half of the Trib. Israel does not turn back to God, meaning Christ. So, he strikes Israel with the curse of the DOTL, which is the GT which ends at the Second Coming, where they do turn to Christ.

[[ it says the earth will be struck with a curse, not just Israel.

No. Malachi only deals with Israel. The rest of the world has been in DOTL since the First Seal.


Destruction of the wicked, believers are untouched;
Now you departed for the subject of Malachi.
Mal:4:1:
For,
behold,
the day cometh,
that shall burn as an oven;
and all the proud,
yea,
and all that do wickedly,
shall be stubble:
and the day that cometh shall burn them up,
saith the LORD of hosts,
that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal:4:2:
But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings;
and ye shall go forth,
and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal:4:3:
And ye shall tread down the wicked;
for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this,
saith the LORD of hosts.]]


ONLY talking about Israel here.

And indeed the saints of Israel under Elijah are the Woman and will be protected while the remaining 2/3 of Israel is destroyed.

This is not about the whole world. It is addressed only to Israel.

Church is gone. Israel is restored.

1 THESSALONIANS 5: 2

1 Thessalonians 4: 13 through 5: 11 is the Rapture. Now here we have the introduction of thief in the night. And the Rapture is called DOTL. Plus, destruction immediately follows.

So, while the DOTL begins for Israel at the Mid, it begins for the Church at the Rapture/Revealing of the AC/Appearance of the Two Witnesses.

[[ now it seems to me that you are saying believers are taken out of the world and destruction for the rest right after, so much for your allowing others to be gathered for anything but destruction]]


You are not listening.

Church is Raptured Pre-Trib. Trib saints now begin to appear as the Trib unfolds. They are handed over to Satan. Not Church.

Those under the Alter and coming out of the Great Trib (42 months of Satan) are Trib Saints, not Church.

They are saved during the Trib.

I never said they were rescued out of the Trib upon salvation.

Clearly many are not. They are the martyrs in Heaven as clearly declared.

Those that survive enter the MK fully alive and in the flesh.

So, yes, Gentiles and Jews are saved during the Trib. But no, they are not protected as you claim.

Just seeing the martyrs coming out of the Trib should be enough for you to understand that.

2 PETER 3: 10

7
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Here is a clear declaration of the heavens and the earth being reserved for destruction.

[[Fire from Heaven at the end of Satan’s little season as in Vs:12 ‘day of God;

Which destroys the earth totally. And the Heavens.

And is Day of God, not DOTL. See that?
Isa:51:6:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
and look upon the earth beneath:
for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke,
and the earth shall wax old like a garment,
and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner:
but my salvation shall be for ever,
and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
Yep.

Jude:1:4:
For there are certain men crept in unawares,
who were before of old ordained to this condemnation,
ungodly men,
turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness,
and denying the only Lord God,
and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jude:1:6:
And the angels which kept not their first estate,
but left their own habitation,
he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.]]
Day of God, right?

10
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.[1]

[[ 6th vial and then the verse you didn’t post the MK referenced to as one day brings you up to Satan’s little season and Vs:12 ‘day of God]]

This is about DOTL in the Bible. Not other verses that can be about it or are assumed.

And besides, the Bowls are in the Trib, not after the Short Time. At least 1,000 time spread there.

There are two, not one, Thief in the Nights in the Bible. One Pre-Trib and one Post MK.
11
Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
12
as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.[2] That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
Day of God. Not DOTL

[[Re:20:11:
And I saw a great white throne,
and him that sat on it,
from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away;
and there was found no place for them.

You don’t include Judgement Day as part of the Lord’s Day
Nope. Day of God.

Heb:12:22:
But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb:12:23:
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb:12:24:
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,
and to the blood of sprinkling,
that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Heb:12:25:
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh.
For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth,
much more shall not we escape,
if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
Heb:12:26:
Whose voice then shook the earth:
but now he hath promised,
saying,
Yet once more I shake not the earth only,
but also heaven.
Heb:12:27:
And this word,
Yet once more,
signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken,
as of things that are made,
that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Heb:12:28:
Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved,
let us have grace,
whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Heb:12:29:
For our God is a consuming fire.

Nor do you include this as being a part of the Day of the Lord;

It does not say DOTL in it.

The purpose of the study was to show explicitly what was called DOTL.

You are interjecting verses and such which was the whole purpose of the article. To avoid doctrinal insertions as if the Bible actual say DOTL.

And this passage is not DOTL. It is talking past and present time realities for saints.
Re:22:4:
And they shall see his face;
and his name shall be in their foreheads.
Re:22:5:
And there shall be no night there;
and they need no candle,
neither light of the sun;
for the Lord God giveth them light:
and they shall reign for ever and ever.]]
Yep. Which again is not DOTL. But eternal promises.

See what is happening? You are inserting DOTL where not said because of your doctrine.

Where DOTL lays a clear foundation for understanding. It is precisely related to events Pre-Trib Rapture to the end of the earth. Nothing more.

[MHz]

Hi Core,

"Malachi only deals with Israel. The rest of the world has been in DOTL since the First Seal."

Two starting times for the very same day, you need new batteries for your calculator.

[CoreIssue]

Hi Core,

"Malachi only deals with Israel. The rest of the world has been in DOTL since the First Seal."

Two starting times for the very same day, you need new batteries for your calculator.

Nope.

Israel joins the show in progress.

Time frame is clearly laid out in just the verses stating DOTL. It begins before the Second Coming and includes the Trib issues.

[MHz]

Nope.

Israel joins the show in progress.

Time frame is clearly laid out in just the verses stating DOTL. It begins before the Second Coming and includes the Trib issues.

The first gathered to Christ, sealed just before the 1st trump;

Re:14:4: These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

The Gentiles, including Church, is afterwards;

1Co:15:20: But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co:15:23: But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

[CoreIssue]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreIssue
Nope.

Israel joins the show in progress.

Time frame is clearly laid out in just the verses stating DOTL. It begins before the Second Coming and includes the Trib issues.


The first gathered to Christ, sealed just before the 1st trump;

Re:14:4: These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

The Gentiles, including Church, is afterwards;

1Co:15:20: But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co:15:23: But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


Nope.

There are saints at the First Seal. The 24 Elders. Resurrected, glorifed and rewarded.

There is no Church in the Trib.

The 144,000 are not gathered until the Second Coming. And they are not Raptured, Resurrected, Glorified or any such thing at that time.

Not his Second Coming. But coming in the clouds in Rapture. All saints from the time of Adam on to the time of the Rapture go then.

Next is the Two at Mid. Again before the Second Coming and then the Trib saints at the Second Coming. You see them as spirits standing before the thrones of the those already glorified and from the Pre-Trib Rapture.

Solidly refutes your position.

[MHz]

The 144,000 are not gathered until the Second Coming.



You did get the 144,000 right, then the Gentiles and the rest of the whole house of Israel

[CoreIssue]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreIssue
The 144,000 are not gathered until the Second Coming.




You did get the 144,000 right, then the Gentiles and the rest of the whole house of Israel
Only living Israel is gathered to Jerusalem. The dead and Gentiles are not.

The Trib saints are Resurrected.

The unsaved Jews and Gentiles remain in Hell where they belong. And they will go into the Lake for eternity.

[CoreIssue]

MHz,

It is becoming very obvious you just skip over the things that refute you or you do not like.

As in the 24 Elders there at the First Seal, Revelation 3:10 stating the Church will not be there, the verse stating live once and then get judged, repentence is required for salvation and on and on.

Salvation after death is just not Biblical.

[MHz]

MHz,

It is becoming very obvious you just skip over the things that refute you or you do not like.

As in the 24 Elders there at the First Seal, Revelation 3:10 stating the Church will not be there, the verse stating live once and then get judged, repentence is required for salvation and on and on.

Salvation after death is just not Biblical.
Hi Core,

How many words of Scripture did you just reject from Re:7?

What is it to you who is shown mercy to, one time, or that some are not saved until the last day. These are God's creations, to do with as He will.

M't:20:8:
So when even was come,
the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward,
Call the labourers,
and give them their hire,
beginning from the last unto the first.
M't:20:9:
And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour,
they received every man a penny.
M't:20:10:
But when the first came,
they supposed that they should have received more;
and they likewise received every man a penny.
M't:20:11:
And when they had received it,
they murmured against the goodman of the house,
M't:20:12:
Saying,
These last have wrought but one hour,
and thou hast made them equal unto us,
which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
M't:20:13:
But he answered one of them,
and said,
Friend,
I do thee no wrong:
didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
M't:20:14:
Take that thine is,
and go thy way:
I will give unto this last,
even as unto thee.
M't:20:15:
Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own?
Is thine eye evil,
because I am good?
M't:20:16:
So the last shall be first,
and the first last:
for many be called,
but few chosen.

M't:18:4:
Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child,
the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

M't:23:12:
And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased;
and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Lu:14:11:
For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased;
and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Lu:18:14:
I tell you,
this man went down to his house justified rather than the other:
for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased;
and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

[CoreIssue]

I stated why I did not accept your spin on them.

You keep going elsewhere instead of making any statment on what I post.

I will repost that in Daniel and maybe this time you will address it.

[MHz]

I stated why I did not accept your spin on them.

You keep going elsewhere instead of making any statment on what I post.

I will repost that in Daniel and maybe this time you will address it.

My spin?
Why do I have to even explain what the great tribulation is, it is used in Scripture but two times besides this. They both point to the destruction of the wicked at Christ's return

[CoreIssue]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreIssue
I stated why I did not accept your spin on them.

You keep going elsewhere instead of making any statment on what I post.

I will repost that in Daniel and maybe this time you will address it.


My spin?
Why do I have to even explain what the great tribulation is, it is used in Scripture but two times besides this. They both point to the destruction of the wicked at Christ's return

What is with your number counts equal greater truth? God does not mean it if only stated once? Yeeesh.

Yes. The phrase Great Trib is limited. But it is well defined as the Second Half of the Trib. And Trib is used as well with a distinct meaning from Great Trib.

And yes, the Second Coming of Christ follows the 7th Bowl.

No. The Great Trib never refers to anything at or after the Second Coming. It is before the Second Coming.

The Trib is 7 years long. The Great Trib is the Second 3.5 years, the 42 months of Satan.

Yes, there is destruction of the wicked, but no, not the same destruction as Armageddon.

I stated the problem with you reorganizing times and events out of given order.

There is absolutely no reason or evidence to take them out of order given. None.

You presented NO evidence or grammatical demands to do so.

[MHz]

What is with your number counts equal greater truth? God does not mean it if only stated once? Yeeesh.
Two verses give you the location in sequence of events. So what's with the once statement?

Are you sure you're not Jewish? I've chatted with a few that don't accept Christ but they can understand what I'm talking about. You haven't understood anything, no matter how plain the scripture is, one day in Scripture is more than a year. Should I start posting using the Wycliff translation?

Ge:3
15Y
schal sette enemytees bitwixe thee and the womman,
and bitwixe thi seed and hir seed;
sche schal breke thin heed,
and thou schalt sette aspies to hir heele.

[CoreIssue]

Two verses give you the location in sequence of events. So what's with the once statement?
Really? Placing something once between two events does not give exact location as well?
Are you sure you're not Jewish?
Nope. Not Jewish at all.
I've chatted with a few that don't accept Christ but they can understand what I'm talking about.
I do understand what you are saying. I have heard many forms of non grammatical readings of the Bible over the years.

Because I understand it is why I reject it so firmly.
You haven't understood anything, no matter how plain the scripture is, one day in Scripture is more than a year. Should I start posting using the Wycliff translation?
And because I understand you that is why I know you are not even trying to see anything but your doctrine. And why I know you grammatical skills are lacking.

And sorry, but someone who so readily violates grammar and rules of language should not be talking about someone else not understanding plainly stated scripture. That requires abiding by rules of grammar and language.

Let us just go with this day declaration you made here.

A Hebrew week of years is a long known and understood concept. It meant and means 7 years as a unit. A single unbroken unit. As in the 70 Weeks of Daniel is 490 years.


Hebrew
Strong's Number: 03117 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/browse.cgi?number=3117&version=kjv) Original WordWord Origin~wyfrom an unused root meaning to be hotTransliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03117&version=kjv#Legend) EntryYowmTWOT - 852Phonetic SpellingParts of Speechyome http://bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=3117h) Noun Masculine Definition
day, time, year
day (as opposed to night)
day (24 hour period)
as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1
as a division of time 1b
a working day, a day's journey
days, lifetime (pl.)
time, period (general)
year
temporal references
today
yesterday
tomorrow

Strong's Number: 2250 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/browse.cgi?number=2250&version=kjv) Original WordWord OriginhJmevrafrom (with (5610 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5610&version=kjv)) implied) of a derivative of hemai (to sit, akin to the base of (1476 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1476&version=kjv))) meaning tame, i.e. gentleTransliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2250&version=kjv#Legend) EntryHemera2:943,309Phonetic SpellingParts of Speechhay-mer'-ah http://bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=2250g) Noun Feminine Definition
the day, used of the natural day, or the interval between sunrise and sunset, as distinguished from and contrasted with the night
in the daytime
metaph., "the day" is regarded as the time for abstaining from indulgence, vice, crime, because acts of the sort are perpetrated at night and in darkness
of the civil day, or the space of twenty four hours (thus including the night)
Eastern usage of this term differs from our western usage. Any part of a day is counted as a whole day, hence the expression "three days and three nights" does not mean literally three whole days, but at least one whole day plus part of two other days.
of the last day of this present age, the day Christ will return from heaven, raise the dead, hold the final judgment, and perfect his kingdom
used of time in general, i.e. the days of his life.
And there are other forms of the word day that single meanings.
For non singular meanings context and usage determines if part of a day, a full 24 hours, a life span, a year or any specialized time period from a couple of days to millions or more years.

DOTL has a very specific defined time period. Rapture until the end of time.

Eternity is the Day of God. Before the Rapture are the Ages.

To take statements out of given order and presentation demands solid grammatical reasons. You do not do that. You just cut and paste in the order you want with neither grammatical or contextual demand.

You cannot give me one grammatical or contextual demand reason for stripping the 42 months out of the 7th Trumpet. Not one because there is none.

[MHz]

Core,
"A single unbroken unit. As in the 70 Weeks of Daniel is 490 years."

In my deluded world that would end about the time Stephen was killed, 70 weeks of years in one continueous flow. That still leaves justification to the time unfolding for the trib as I have stated, It also removes any justification you have for setting a space of 7 years for the trib because it is from the 70 weeks that you base the 7 years on.

You even put yourself as being gathered before those who are said to be the firstfruits. If you can't see any error in just that one point how many other things have gotten past you. You exhault yourself to a place of importance that cannot be supported by any Scripture. Christ owns all of mankind, you are not Jewish therefore you are gathered after the firstfruits.

[CoreIssue]

Hey MHz,
"A single unbroken unit. As in the 70 Weeks of Daniel is 490 years."

In my deluded world that would end about the time Stephen was killed, 70 weeks of years in one continueous flow. That still leaves justification to the time unfolding for the trib as I have stated, It also removes any justification you have for setting a space of 7 years for the trib because it is from the 70 weeks that you base the 7 years on.
Sigh, you don't get it.

Each Week is a Unit as stated by Daniel. In total there are 70 Units equaling a total of 490 years.. 69 are done.

You break a Unit. I do not.

And the point actually was a Day does not demand 24 hours.

And no. There is no justfication in how you deal with the 40 Weeks. You violate grammar and word meaning to move the cutting off of Christ from the end of the 69th Week to the Mid of the 70th. After does not allow that so you simply redefine after.

And violate the meanings of the two words for prince by trying to force them both to mean Christ, when they very word meanings reject that.

You keep doing those things and wonder why your are rejected so firmly. That puzzles me.
You even put yourself as being gathered before those who are said to be the firstfruits.

And the old gathered means Rapture in all usages argument. It does not.

The Rapture is indeed a gathering. The Gathering at the Second Coming is indeed a gather but not the same kind of gathering.

And gain you just dance right by the 24 gathered, glorified and rewarded Elders sitting at the First Seal. Compounded even worse when you see the First Seal as before Christ's death.

Gathered, glorfied and rewarded before the blood price was even pain.

So many problems with your doctrine.
If you can't see any error in just that one point how many other things have gotten past you.
Actually, you need to answer that question since you disregard the 24 Elders, Rev 3:10 and so much more that says the Church is not there in the Trib.

You exhault yourself to a place of importance that cannot be supported by any Scripture.
Sure it can. Read the Charts. Plenty of scripture there.

Read about the 24 Elders at the First Seal. Read Rev 3:10. But read them grammatically and not according to your doctrine.

You are the one avoiding clear cut verses that deny you. Just go past them and refuse to deal with them. Take the position that if you can post more verses than are presented against you the weight of your out of context and false intepretations applied to them out nullify the plain verses posted. They don't.

You cannot create your own rules of grammar and language. Nope.


Christ owns all of mankind, you are not Jewish therefore you are gathered after the firstfruits.

False. And again you just skip over Rev 3:10 and the 24 Elders sitting there. Just disregard and they don't count it seems.

[CoreIssue]

With all of that said, returning to the opening post, the Bible states Day of the Lord has a beginning and has an end.

Then comes the Day of God.

Yes, the messes up some of your doctrines. But that IS what the Bible says.

[MHz]

Each Week is a Unit as stated by Daniel. In total there are 70 Units equaling a total of 490 years.. 69 are done.

You break a Unit. I do not.

You broke the 70.

[CoreIssue]

You broke the 70.

Really? How did I do that? In the terms of Weeks the 70th follows the 69th.

Like 11th grade follows 10th even though there is a summer inbetween? Right?

A Week has 7 consecutive days/years. Any addition of days/years within the Week breaks the Unity of the Week. You now have more than 7 days in the Week.

No. I follow the given data.

69th Week - Christ dies after/immediately/upon close of the 69th Week. You adding 3.5 years destroys the meaning of after.

70th Week is still a full future 7 years.

The DOTL begins with the Pre-Trib Rapture. The events of the Trib are included in OT prophecy as DOTL And concludes when the Day of God begins.

Blows your doctrine right out of the water.

[MHz]

Really? How did I do that? In the terms of Weeks the 70th follows the 69th.

Like 11th grade follows 10th even though there is a summer inbetween? Right?

A Week has 7 consecutive days/years. Any addition of days/years within the Week breaks the Unity of the Week. You now have more than 7 days in the Week.

No. I follow the given data.

69th Week - Christ dies after/immediately/upon close of the 69th Week. You adding 3.5 years destroys the meaning of after.

70th Week is still a full future 7 years.

The DOTL begins with the Pre-Trib Rapture. The events of the Trib are included in OT prophecy as DOTL And concludes when the Day of God begins.

Blows your doctrine right out of the water.

How much of a break was there between the first two (7 & 69), answer there wasn't any.
A full 7 years, this part is 1 month longer than 3 1/2 years;
Da:12:11:
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away,
and the abomination that maketh desolate set up,
there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Do you really believe Satan's wrath and God's wrath can co-exixt in the same space and time, it would seemtome that the latter trumps the former;
Re:12:12:
Therefore rejoice,
ye heavens,
and ye that dwell in them.
Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea!
for the devil is come down unto you,
having great wrath,
because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Re:14:10:
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God,
which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation;
and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels,
and in the presence of the Lamb:

Re:15:1:
And I saw another sign in heaven,
great and marvellous,
seven angels having the seven last plagues;
for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

The last verse above explains why I see TDOTL as starting then, the book of Zephaniah is quite clear about what 'that day' is about, for it to start any sooner the trib wouoldn't even be able to happen, evil things are done away with. It is a contridiction of terms to say both wraths can be in the same place and time.

[CoreIssue]

How much of a break was there between the first two (7 & 69), answer there wasn't any.
A full 7 years, this part is 1 month longer than 3 1/2 years;
Da:12:11:
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away,
and the abomination that maketh desolate set up,
there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
This extends beyond the Trib.

The Trib ends at the Second Coming. Christ returns at the Second Coming. He assigns the Jews to the rightful tribes and the MK work begins.

Part is hunting down the remaining ones with the Mark. Part is the cleansing and expansion of the Temple.

This says that 30 days after Christ's return is when the AoD will be pulled down and out of the Temple.

It is after the 70th Week of Daniel. In full agreement with the 7 years of Revelation.

You also see in Daniel an even later date, timed from Mid Trib, where the Temple is rededicated.

Do you really believe Satan's wrath and God's wrath can co-exixt in the same space and time, it would seemtome that the latter trumps the former;

Of course it can, when God's wrath uses Satan's wrath as a tool for his purposes.
Re:12:12:
Therefore rejoice,
ye heavens,
and ye that dwell in them.
Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea!
for the devil is come down unto you,
having great wrath,
because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

5th Trumpet, First Woe, Day 1,261.

Since Satan's 42 months begin in 7th Trumpet, 3rd Woe, all 3 Woes must occur quickly together and they are in the 5-7th Trumpets, the timing is most assuredly locked to day 1,261.

You cannot construct any other time table placing these issues at Mid, days 1,260&1 that start a 42 month run with the Two Witnesses and Israels 42 months of peace prior to Satan's 42 months.

And you don't. You keep trying to move 42 months into ancient history, put 42 months futhre and then overlap events into the future 42 that cannot coexist.

I have asked before for a simple time line and gave you one. You refuse and or say it is impossible to do.

I ask again for one.

1st Seal------42 months-------7th Seal/Trumpets------42months/Bowls-----7th Bowl/Second Coming

What is yours?
Re:14:10:
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God,
which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation;
and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels,
and in the presence of the Lamb:
Part of an overview with this part looking to the Second Coming. Following this it falls back in time sequence, begins the Bowls, culminating in the 7th Bowl, which again, is the fall of the capital of Mystery Babylon, Rome.

You cannot move the Bowls outside the Trib and after the Second Coming. Just does not work in any way or fashion.
Re:15:1:
And I saw another sign in heaven,
great and marvellous,
seven angels having the seven last plagues;
for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Yep. Bowls follow Trumpets. Just as stated. Rome is destroyed in the 7th Bowl
The last verse above explains why I see TDOTL as starting then, the book of Zephaniah is quite clear about what 'that day' is about, for it to start any sooner the trib wouoldn't even be able to happen, evil things are done away with. It is a contridiction of terms to say both wraths can be in the same place and time.
No.

The DOTL in more than the Second Coming. A lot more.

I laid out all the verse that say DOTL as a topic. You are disregarding all the ones that do not fit you doctrine.

[MHz]

Hi Core,
This extends beyond the Trib.

I was under the impression that the 7 year trib had the abomination within the 7 years.

M't:24:15: When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

M't:24:21: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
M't:24:22: And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Are you saying there is 3 1/2 years between these verses;

2Th:2:3:
Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;
2Th:2:4:
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,
or that is worshipped;
so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
shewing himself that he is God.

2Th:2:8:
And then shall that Wicked be revealed,
whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth,
and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


The Trib ends at the Second Coming. Christ returns at the Second Coming. He assigns the Jews to the rightful tribes and the MK work begins.

While these verses pretty much says Christ has claimed the Earth as his;

Re:11:15:
And the seventh angel sounded;
and there were great voices in heaven,
saying,
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord,
and of his Christ;
and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Re:11:16:
And the four and twenty elders,
which sat before God on their seats,
fell upon their faces,
and worshipped God,
Re:11:17:
Saying,
We give thee thanks,
O Lord God Almighty,
which art,
and wast,
and art to come;
because thou hast taken to thee thy great power,
and hast reigned.
Re:11:18:
And the nations were angry,
and thy wrath is come,
and the time of the dead,
that they should be judged,
and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets,
and to the saints,
and them that fear thy name,
small and great;
and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Re:11:19:
And the temple of God was opened in heaven,
and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament:
and there were lightnings,
and voices,
and thunderings,
and an earthquake,
and great hail.

Don't you have this as just the start of the Beast's 42 months?


Part is hunting down the remaining ones with the Mark. Part is the cleansing and expansion of the Temple.
Speedy means what, 30 days;

Zep:1:15:
That day is a day of wrath,
a day of trouble and distress,
a day of wasteness and desolation,
a day of darkness and gloominess,
a day of clouds and thick darkness,
Zep:1:16:
A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities,
and against the high towers.
Zep:1:17:
And I will bring distress upon men,
that they shall walk like blind men,
because they have sinned against the LORD:
and their blood shall be poured out as dust,
and their flesh as the dung.
Zep:1:18:
Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath;
but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy:
for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

After the above comes these verses;

Eze:39:7:
So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel;
and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more:
and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD,
the Holy One in Israel.
Eze:39:8:
Behold,
it is come,
and it is done,
saith the Lord GOD;
this is the day whereof I have spoken.
Eze:39:9:
And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth,
and shall set on fire and burn the weapons,
both the shields and the bucklers,
the bows and the arrows,
and the handstaves,
and the spears,
and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

Do you see the above and below verses overlapping or is one completed and then the next is begun;

Eze:39:12:
And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them,
that they may cleanse the land.
Eze:39:13:
Yea,
all the people of the land shall bury them;
and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified,
saith the Lord GOD.
Eze:39:14:
And they shall sever out men of continual employment,
passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth,
to cleanse it:
after the end of seven months shall they search.

At the end of this seven months they then go through the rest of the world to mark and collect these bones, how long will that take?


This says that 30 days after Christ's return is when the AoD will be pulled down and out of the Temple.
The verse from Daniel 12 says 1290 days untill it is setup;

Da:12:11:
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away,
and the abomination that maketh desolate set up,
there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

It is after the 70th Week of Daniel. In full agreement with the 7 years of Revelation.

I know you use Daniel 9 as a base for seven years, in Revelations why do you not see all the 3 1/2 year timelines give as ending about the same time rather you see one starting and then ending, then the next starting and then ending. Since there are three references to this amount of time then two have to run together.

You also see in Daniel an even later date, timed from Mid Trib, where the Temple is rededicated.
Which one are you referencing?

Of course it can, when God's wrath uses Satan's wrath as a tool for his purposes.

1Jo:3:8:
He that committeth sin is of the devil;
for the devil sinneth from the beginning.
For this purpose the Son of God was manifested,
that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Part of what Satan does is try to destroy the woman that is protected from the dragon, doesn't really seem to fit in with doing anything 'for' God, it seems quite clear he is in opposition to God. A really good indication of this fact is where he finally ends up, the Lake of Fire where torment is never-ending.

5th Trumpet, First Woe, Day 1,261.

Since Satan's 42 months begin in 7th Trumpet, 3rd Woe, all 3 Woes must occur quickly together and they are in the 5-7th Trumpets, the timing is most assuredly locked to day 1,261.
This is one of the things I fail to believe, this verse says Satan has be be before the man of sin, you have the false prophet operating for a full 3 1/2 years before Satan;
2Th:2:8:
And then shall that Wicked be revealed,
whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth,
and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th:2:9:
Even him,
whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


You cannot construct any other time table placing these issues at Mid, days 1,260&1 that start a 42 month run with the Two Witnesses and Israels 42 months of peace prior to Satan's 42 months.

And you don't. You keep trying to move 42 months into ancient history, put 42 months futhre and then overlap events into the future 42 that cannot coexist.
The two witnesses are killed and resurrected before the end of the second woe;
Re:11:11:
And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them,
and they stood upon their feet;
and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Re:11:12:
And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them,
Come up hither.
And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud;
and their enemies beheld them.
Re:11:13:
And the same hour was there a great earthquake,
and the tenth part of the city fell,
and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand:
and the remnant were affrighted,
and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Re:11:14:
The second woe is past;
and,
behold,
the third woe cometh quickly.

This occurs during a time of peace?

Re:11:5:
And if any man will hurt them,
fire proceedeth out of their mouth,
and devoureth their enemies:
and if any man will hurt them,
he must in this manner be killed.
Re:11:6:
These have power to shut heaven,
that it rain not in the days of their prophecy:
and have power over waters to turn them to blood,
and to smite the earth with all plagues,
as often as they will.
Re:11:7:
And when they shall have finished their testimony,
the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them,
and shall overcome them,
and kill them.


I have asked before for a simple time line and gave you one. You refuse and or say it is impossible to do.

I ask again for one.

1st Seal------42 months-------7th Seal/Trumpets------42months/Bowls-----7th Bowl/Second Coming

What is yours?

5th trump, day 1 of tribulation, 5 months of this;
Re:9:3:
And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth:
and unto them was given power,
as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Re:9:4:
And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth,
neither any green thing,
neither any tree;
but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
Re:9:5:
And to them it was given that they should not kill them,
but that they should be tormented five months:
and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion,
when he striketh a man.
Re:9:6:
And in those days shall men seek death,
and shall not find it;
and shall desire to die,
and death shall flee from them.

6th trump, day 151 to 1260th day;

Re:9:17:
And thus I saw the horses in the vision,
and them that sat on them,
having breastplates of fire,
and of jacinth,
and brimstone:
and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions;
and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
Re:9:18:
By these three was the third part of men killed,
by the fire,
and by the smoke,
and by the brimstone,
which issued out of their mouths.
Re:9:19:
For their power is in their mouth,
and in their tails:
for their tails were like unto serpents,
and had heads,
and with them they do hurt.
Re:9:20:
And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands,
that they should not worship devils,
and idols of gold,
and silver,
and brass,
and stone,
and of wood:
which neither can see,
nor hear,
nor walk:
Re:9:21:
Neither repented they of their murders,
nor of their sorceries,
nor of their fornication,
nor of their thefts.

All the above occurs duriny what you call a time of peace, certainly doesn't appear that way to me.

7th trump the last half of that day that marks the 3 1/2 days the witness are dead, basically the 4th day after they are killed. This half day is called 'great tribulation' or TDOTL.

Anything before the 5th trump are birth-pangs. Tribulation is the 3 woes, Satan is the first two woes, Christ is the 3rd woe. Remember all three woes are for the 'inhabitants of the Earth'. I don't believe it matters to Satan who he kills as long as he can get some to worship him. What he has been able to do is destroyed at Christ's return, the 4th day after the witnesses are killed.


Part of an overview with this part looking to the Second Coming. Following this it falls back in time sequence, begins the Bowls, culminating in the 7th Bowl, which again, is the fall of the capital of Mystery Babylon, Rome.

You cannot move the Bowls outside the Trib and after the Second Coming. Just does not work in any way or fashion.

Yep. Bowls follow Trumpets. Just as stated. Rome is destroyed in the 7th Bowl[QUOTE]

I don't think you can see Rome from Jerusalem.



[QUOTE]The DOTL in more than the Second Coming. A lot more.

I laid out all the verse that say DOTL as a topic. You are disregarding all the ones that do not fit you doctrine.

True but lets try to say with what occurs on the first day of His return;

Re:18:8:
Therefore shall her plagues come in one day,
death,
and mourning,
and famine;
and she shall be utterly burned with fire:
for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

[CoreIssue]

Hi Core,

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreIssue
This extends beyond the Trib.


I was under the impression that the 7 year trib had the abomination within the 7 years.

Hey MHz,
The AC is not the Abomination talked about. His statue is. And it is set up at Mid.

Daniel says set up at Mid Trib and Matthew confirms that timing.

This is when Woman flees because the AC has invaded Israel.

Notice it says the Great Tribulation Begins then. The Gentiles have been in Tribulation for 3.5 years. This is when the Two die, and per Malachi, the curse falls on Israel for rejecting their messag.

Are you saying there is 3 1/2 years between these verses;

2Th:2:3:
Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;
2Th:2:4:
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,
or that is worshipped;
so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
shewing himself that he is God.

2Th:2:8:
And then shall that Wicked be revealed,
whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth,
and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
No.

It says Christ will return for the Church, which is the subject established in chapter 1, in the Rapture. At that time the Restrainer, being the Holy Spirit, will removed from the earth as indwelling saints and restraining evil.

The Treaty of the 70th Week, revealing of the AC, Rapture, removal of the Restrainer, appearance of the Two Witnesses, First Seal and beginning of the Trib all happen at the same time.

3.5 years later, the AC will enter the Temple, sit on the alter and declare himself god.

He comes to Jerusalem with the AoD statue already built, with a following already believing he is god and with the FP.

His power and followership increase at Mid. They do not begin at Mid.

His wars are the wars of the Seals. He is the first seal and the one who does the Treaty beginning the 70th Week of Daniel.


Quote:
The Trib ends at the Second Coming. Christ returns at the Second Coming. He assigns the Jews to the rightful tribes and the MK work begins.

While these verses pretty much says Christ has claimed the Earth as his;

Re:11:15:
And the seventh angel sounded;
and there were great voices in heaven,
saying,
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord,
and of his Christ;
and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Re:11:16:
And the four and twenty elders,
which sat before God on their seats,
fell upon their faces,
and worshipped God,
Re:11:17:
Saying,
We give thee thanks,
O Lord God Almighty,
which art,
and wast,
and art to come;
because thou hast taken to thee thy great power,
and hast reigned.
Re:11:18:
And the nations were angry,
and thy wrath is come,
and the time of the dead,
that they should be judged,
and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets,
and to the saints,
and them that fear thy name,
small and great;
and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Re:11:19:
And the temple of God was opened in heaven,
and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament:
and there were lightnings,
and voices,
and thunderings,
and an earthquake,
and great hail.

Don't you have this as just the start of the Beast's 42 months?


There is a difference between a royal decree of taking possession and physically taking possession.

It does not say Christ returns then. It says the earth is his, then the Bowls come, with Rome destroyed in the 7th Bowl, with the end of the Wedding Supper and Second coming following immediately.

Exactly 7 years to the day.

This is said in Heaven. It says the wrath has come, meaning from Heaven to the earth.
The Trumpets announce. The three Woes are in, but not are fully, the last three Trumpets.
There is fully 42 months after the 7th Trumpet. And 42 months, the Two Witnesses and the time of peace on Israel before the AC breaks the Treaty Mid Treaty, as stated by Daniel.
That is 7 years.
Now continue past Revelation 11. The next issues are the 7 Bowls of God's wrath.
It says the armies are gathered in wrath. That in the 6th Bowl the evil spirits in the AC, FP and dragon come out of them and gather the armies to Armageddon to fight Christ when he comes.
The 7th Bowl destroys Rome.
And at the Second Coming the AC armies have already been gathered against him. And they are immediately destroyed.
No way to put the Bowls after the Second Coming. No way to align the Bowls as happening in parallel with the Seals or Trumpets.

Part is hunting down the remaining ones with the Mark. Part is the cleansing and expansion of the Temple.
Speedy means what, 30 days;

In a world where the survivors of the army are running on foot and 2/3 of the world's population has died, hunting them down is not a big deal.
They have no where to hide that God and his army cannot know where to look.

Zep is describing events that happen throughout the Trib and finalize at the Second Coming.

Eze:39:7-8 has destruction and conversion at the Second Coming with 9 the aftermath into the MK.

Do you see the above and below verses overlapping or is one completed and then the next is begun;
As just stated.

At the end of this seven months they then go through the rest of the world to mark and collect these bones, how long will that take?
It doesn't say that. You are misreading the Old English of the KJV

12 " 'For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them in order to cleanse the land. 13 All the people of the land will bury them, and the day I am glorified will be a memorable day for them, declares the Sovereign LORD. 14 " 'Men will be regularly employed to cleanse the land. Some will go throughout the land and, in addition to them, others will bury those that remain on the ground. At the end of the seven months they will begin their search. 15 As they go through the land and one of them sees a human bone, he will set up a marker beside it until the gravediggers have buried it in the Valley of Hamon Gog. 16 (Also a town called Hamonah [e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ez%2039;&version=31;#fen-NIV-21465e)] will be there.) And so they will cleanse the land.'
It says it is all done in 7 months.

And it is all after the Second Coming and Trib.


This says that 30 days after Christ's return is when the AoD will be pulled down and out of the Temple.
The verse from Daniel 12 says 1290 days untill it is setup;

Da:12:11:
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away,
and the abomination that maketh desolate set up,
there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

No. You are again reading wrong.
It says after it is set up it will be there for 1,290 days. The KJV Is really messing you up.
11 "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.
Now look at the full passage.
11 "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

The AoD is torn down 30 days after the Second Coming and the hunting down of those with the Mark goes on for 75 days from the Second Coming.
This is in answer to Daniel asking what the outcome of the Trib would be. Here he is told.
No. Daniel and Revelation are very clear of the Mid events. And Mid Trib is days 1,260 and 61 of the 7 year Trib.
Very precise timings given. Very precise.
You really need to use something other than the KJV. You are not reading it correctly at all.

It is after the 70th Week of Daniel. In full agreement with the 7 years of Revelation.

I know you use Daniel 9 as a base for seven years, in Revelations why do you not see all the 3 1/2 year timelines give as ending about the same time rather you see one starting and then ending, then the next starting and then ending. Since there are three references to this amount of time then two have to run together.

Absolutely do.
I cannot help it you refuse to read in order.
And it most assuredly says the Trumpets sound AFTER the 7th Seal. And the Bowls are the LAST and COMPLETION of God's wrath. That demands they come after.
It most assuredly says the Two Witnesses have 42 months followed by 42 months of Satan. No overlap. Impossible to overlap. You cannot have them both in the Temple at the same time.
The Two are killed in the 6th Trumpet, containing the 2nd Woe, by the FP. There is a FULL 42 months after this beginning in the 7th Trumpet.
That is 7 full years. You cannot compress it to 3.5 years. That is impossible.
1When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 2And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.

The Trumpets are not even handed out until all the Seals sound and a half hour of silence follows. There is no overlap of Seals and Trumpets.
1I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God's wrath is completed.
There was already wrath before the Bowls were even handed out.
The Bowls compete and are the last of the wrath. That demands the other events have completed, else there was no wrath before for the Bowls to complete.
Remember, when you demand they all happen in parallel, that means the first Seal and First Trumpet happen at the same time as the First Bowl. So that says they cannot be last, but are part of. They cannot complete what has not even begun.
The last of the Seals says God's wrath has come, but in your thinking how could it have come if already in work and nearly finished?
Christ does not come in wrath. The armies are gathered in wrath, in the 7th Bowl. But Christ is stated not to come in wrath, but in justice.

You also see in Daniel an even later date, timed from Mid Trib, where the Temple is rededicated.
Which one are you referencing?

It was, again, Daniel asking about timing from the AoD and stoppage of sacrifices from Mid Trib. This time for when the Temple would open again.
Daniel 8


13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, "How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, and the surrender of the sanctuary and of the host that will be trampled underfoot?"
14 He said to me, "It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated." The Interpretation of the Vision


Mid to Second Coming - 1,260 days
Mid to destruction of AoD - 1,290 days
Mid to MK Temple dedicated - 2,300 days
In Daniel 11, the AC is shown invading Israel.
In 12, Daniel asks how long it will take to fulfill those invastion events. He is told 1,260 days.
That is the Mid invasion until Christ returns. AC gone at the end of 1,260 days.
Then Daniels question changes to what the outcome of the 1,260 days will be.
8 I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, "My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?"
The question shifts from fulfilling the Trib/70th Week to what will it will result in.
Now he is told the AoD will stand for 1,290 days and those who survive (the hunt and purification) to day 1,335 will be blessed.
Chapter 12 then is the issue of total fulfillment of the AoD and related issues. That being the Temple completed and functioning again, he is told 2,300 days from Mid.
-------7 year Trib---------/---30 days AoD down
-------7 year Trib---------/-------75 days all with mark dead
-------7 year Trib---------/----------------------1,040 days Temple reopens

Of course it can, when God's wrath uses Satan's wrath as a tool for his purposes.

1Jo:3:8:
He that committeth sin is of the devil;
for the devil sinneth from the beginning.
For this purpose the Son of God was manifested,
that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Part of what Satan does is try to destroy the woman that is protected from the dragon, doesn't really seem to fit in with doing anything 'for' God, it seems quite clear he is in opposition to God. A really good indication of this fact is where he finally ends up, the Lake of Fire where torment is never-ending.

God protects the Woman, doesn't he?
The Seals belong to God. The First Seal is Satan. The 1st Woe/5th Trumpet has God casting Satan down among the people. Daniel tell us God hands over the Trib Saints to Satan. Satan purges 2/3 of Israel. Satan is the choice opposed to God to test and sort Man. Satan is thrown down by God with authority to open the Pit. God allows the Two Witnesses to be killed.
Tool of God.
God does not sin. Nor does Christ eliminate the works of Satan with offers and nice talk in all cases. He uses a sword as well.

5th Trumpet, First Woe, Day 1,261.

Since Satan's 42 months begin in 7th Trumpet, 3rd Woe, all 3 Woes must occur quickly together and they are in the 5-7th Trumpets, the timing is most assuredly locked to day 1,261.
This is one of the things I fail to believe, this verse says Satan has be be before the man of sin, you have the false prophet operating for a full 3 1/2 years before Satan;
2Th:2:8:
And then shall that Wicked be revealed,
whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth,
and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th:2:9:
Even him,
whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


Nope. 2 Thes. is talking about the AC, not Satan.
Again, you are letting the KJV mess you up.
9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing.
The AC work is in agreement and in the ways of Satan. He does not come after Satan arrives.

You cannot construct any other time table placing these issues at Mid, days 1,260&1 that start a 42 month run with the Two Witnesses and Israels 42 months of peace prior to Satan's 42 months.

And you don't. You keep trying to move 42 months into ancient history, put 42 months futhre and then overlap events into the future 42 that cannot coexist.
The two witnesses are killed and resurrected before the end of the second woe;
Re:11:11:
And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them,
and they stood upon their feet;
and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Re:11:12:
And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them,
Come up hither.
And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud;
and their enemies beheld them.
Re:11:13:
And the same hour was there a great earthquake,
and the tenth part of the city fell,
and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand:
and the remnant were affrighted,
and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Re:11:14:
The second woe is past;
and,
behold,
the third woe cometh quickly.

This occurs during a time of peace?

No.
The time of peace is over. This is day 1,261. The AC has invaded, slaughtering many, Satan is cast down, the FP demon has come out of the Pit onto the FP and Israel begins the Great Trib.
The Two Witnesses 42 months ended the day before. Another good reason you cannot have them in the Temple at the same time.
The 42 months of Satan have begun. 42 + 42 is 7 years.
I have asked before for a simple time line and gave you one. You refuse and or say it is impossible to do.

I ask again for one.

1st Seal------42 months-------7th Seal/Trumpets------42months/Bowls-----7th Bowl/Second Coming

What is yours?
All the above occurs duriny what you call a time of peace, certainly doesn't appear that way to me.
Nope. None of the Trumpets are during a time of peace. And you do not have 42 months following the 7th Trumpet. And no sign of any Seals.

7th trump the last half of that day that marks the 3 1/2 days the witness are dead, basically the 4th day after they are killed. This half day is called 'great tribulation' or TDOTL.
The Great Trib is 3.5 years long.

Anything before the 5th trump are birth-pangs. Tribulation is the 3 woes, Satan is the first two woes, Christ is the 3rd woe. Remember all three woes are for the 'inhabitants of the Earth'. I don't believe it matters to Satan who he kills as long as he can get some to worship him. What he has been able to do is destroyed at Christ's return, the 4th day after the witnesses are killed.
Is this a modified form of Historicism, Amil or Post-Mil?

[quote]Part of an overview with this part looking to the Second Coming. Following this it falls back in time sequence, begins the Bowls, culminating in the 7th Bowl, which again, is the fall of the capital of Mystery Babylon, Rome.

You cannot move the Bowls outside the Trib and after the Second Coming. Just does not work in any way or fashion.

Yep. Bowls follow Trumpets. Just as stated. Rome is destroyed in the 7th Bowl[quote]

I don't think you can see Rome from Jerusalem.
Show me where Jerusalem is ever called Mystery Bablon.

John clearly defines Mystery Babylon in Revelation. The city of 7 hills (Rome) with the 7 kings coming from Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome.

Daniels states 2 kings from Babylon, 2 kings from Medo-Persia, one from Greece and 2 kings from Rome. That is 7.

Rome breaks down into 10, which happened in history at the collapse of the Roman Empire.

The Ten Toes reform the AC Empire. The EU holds the lands the Ten collapsed into. The AC rises from the Ten Toes.

Jerusalem and Israel are never part of any of this.

Show me where Jerusalem is ever called Mystery Babylon. You cannot.

But I have shown you where Rome is, many times.


Quote:
The DOTL in more than the Second Coming. A lot more.

I laid out all the verse that say DOTL as a topic. You are disregarding all the ones that do not fit you doctrine.

True but lets try to say with what occurs on the first day of His return;

Re:18:8:
Therefore shall her plagues come in one day,
death,
and mourning,
and famine;
and she shall be utterly burned with fire:
for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

That is Second Coming. Not Rapture.

The Trib is before that and most assuredly DOTL.

[MHz]

Hi Core,
Just a quick note while I cover the rest of your most interesting post.

When has Rome ever claimed this;
Re:18:7:
How much she hath glorified herself,
and lived deliciously,
so much torment and sorrow give her:
for she saith in her heart,
I sit a queen,
and am no widow,
and shall see no sorrow.

[CoreIssue]

Hi Core,
Just a quick note while I cover the rest of your most interesting post.

When has Rome ever claimed this;
Re:18:7:
How much she hath glorified herself,
and lived deliciously,
so much torment and sorrow give her:
for she saith in her heart,
I sit a queen,
and am no widow,
and shall see no sorrow.
We need context here.
Revelation
4The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. 5This title was written on her forehead:
MYSTERY
BABYLON THE GREAT
THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES
AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.
Purple and Scarlet. The royal and priestly colors of Rome. Both Pagan and Catholic.

Spilled the blood of those who bore the testimony of Christ.

That most assuredly is Rome, not Israel or Jerusalem.

Rome controlled Jerusalem from the time of Christ through the 70AD dismanteling. Rome butchered Christians under the Emporers. Rome did the Inquisition.

There is no room for Jerusalem in either of these descriptive points.

Don't go back to the OT. This says those killed were of Christ.

Right there Rome is declared Mystery Babylon.

When I saw her, I was greatly astonished. 7Then the angel said to me: "Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns. 8The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.

7 heads and 10 horns corresponds to the 7 kings of the 5 Empires of the statue. And the 10 horns to the Ten Toes Rome collapsed into and out of which the AC and his empire will rise.

Again, not Jerusalem.
9"This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while. 11The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.
City on 7 Hills is Rome. It is called that.

And 7 kings. Back to the statue, with its 7 kings.

The AC is the Beast who was, is not and will be is Alexander the Great. More correctly his demon.

And the king to come is from the Ten Toes as the restored Roman Empire, the EU in its current form.
15Then the angel said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages. 16The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled. 18The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth."
They will destroy the Roman Catholic Church and revert it to the a Pagan form worshipping the AC.

Prostitute, as in Apostate RCC.
4Then I heard another voice from heaven say:
"Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
5for her sins are piled up to heaven,
and God has remembered her crimes.
6Give back to her as she has given;
pay her back double for what she has done.
Mix her a double portion from her own cup.
7Give her as much torture and grief
as the glory and luxury she gave herself.
In her heart she boasts,
'I sit as queen; I am not a widow,
and I will never mourn.'
8Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her:
death, mourning and famine.
She will be consumed by fire,
for mighty is the Lord God who judges her.
The death and destruction Rome committed on the Church will be visited back on Rome.
" 'Woe! Woe, O great city,
dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet,
and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls!

Again, the colors of Rome and the RCC.
21Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said:
"With such violence
the great city of Babylon will be thrown down,
never to be found again.

Finally, this most assuredly eliminates Jerusalem. For it is never totally destroyed and will be the City and Throne of Christ in the MK.

Rome. No way Jerusalem.

[MHz]

Well at least you have shown blindness can also be present in a Christian, all you had to do was explain about Rome having been said she would never be a widow. Since this is our last communication these are the Jews you support

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6657600254881054584&q=where+is+Israel

See you after the trib

[CoreIssue]

Well at least you have shown blindness can also be present in a Christian, all you had to do was explain about Rome having been said she would never be a widow. Since this is our last communication these are the Jews you support

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6657600254881054584&q=where+is+Israel

See you after the trib
Amazing. You hand pick what you feel you can mold to support you and throw the rest away.

I more than amply showed Rome is Mystery Babylon. Not Jerusalem.

Rome is lying to herself in that statement. She believes she will always find suiters to be with her.

But she ends up destroyed. Never to be again.

[MHz]

We need context here.
Purple and Scarlet. The royal and priestly colors of Rome. Both Pagan and Catholic.

You really should let Scripture give you the information about what other Scripture says;

Jer:4:30: And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life.

Ex:26:1:
Moreover thou shalt make the tabernacle with ten curtains of fine twined linen,
and blue,
and purple,
and scarlet:
with cherubims of cunning work shalt thou make them.

Ex:26:31:
And thou shalt make a vail of blue,
and purple,
and scarlet,
and fine twined linen of cunning work:
with cherubims shall it be made:

Ex:26:36:
And thou shalt make an hanging for the door of the tent,
of blue,
and purple,
and scarlet,
and fine twined linen,
wrought with needlework.

Ex:27:16:
And for the gate of the court shall be an hanging of twenty cubits,
of blue,
and purple,
and scarlet,
and fine twined linen,
wrought with needlework:
and their pillars shall be four,
and their sockets four.

Ex:28:5:
And they shall take gold,
and blue,
and purple,
and scarlet,
and fine linen.

Ex:28:6:
And they shall make the ephod of gold,
of blue,
and of purple,
of scarlet,
and fine twined linen,
with cunning work.

Ex:28:8:
And the curious girdle of the ephod,
which is upon it,
shall be of the same,
according to the work thereof;
even of gold,
of blue,
and purple,
and scarlet,
and fine twined linen.

Ex:28:15:
And thou shalt make the breastplate of judgment with cunning work;
after the work of the ephod thou shalt make it;
of gold,
of blue,
and of purple,
and of scarlet,
and of fine twined linen,
shalt thou make it.

Ex:28:33:
And beneath upon the hem of it thou shalt make pomegranates of blue,
and of purple,
and of scarlet,
round about the hem thereof;
and bells of gold between them round about:

Ex:35:6:
And blue,
and purple,
and scarlet,
and fine linen,
and goats' hair,

Ex:35:23:
And every man,
with whom was found blue,
and purple,
and scarlet,
and fine linen,
and goats' hair,
and red skins of rams,
and badgers' skins,
brought them.

Ex:35:25:
And all the women that were wise hearted did spin with their hands,
and brought that which they had spun,
both of blue,
and of purple,
and of scarlet,
and of fine linen.

Ex:35:35:
Them hath he filled with wisdom of heart,
to work all manner of work,
of the engraver,
and of the cunning workman,
and of the embroiderer,
in blue,
and in purple,
in scarlet,
and in fine linen,
and of the weaver,
even of them that do any work,
and of those that devise cunning work.

Ex:36:8:
And every wise hearted man among them that wrought the work of the tabernacle made ten curtains of fine twined linen,
and blue,
and purple,
and scarlet:
with cherubims of cunning work made he them.

Ex:36:35:
And he made a vail of blue,
and purple,
and scarlet,
and fine twined linen:
with cherubims made he it of cunning work.

Ex:36:37:
And he made an hanging for the tabernacle door of blue,
and purple,
and scarlet,
and fine twined linen,
of needlework;

Ex:38:18:
And the hanging for the gate of the court was needlework,
of blue,
and purple,
and scarlet,
and fine twined linen:
and twenty cubits was the length,
and the height in the breadth was five cubits,
answerable to the hangings of the court.

Ex:38:23:
And with him was Aholiab,
son of Ahisamach,
of the tribe of Dan, an engraver,
and a cunning workman,
and an embroiderer in blue,
and in purple,
and in scarlet,
and fine linen.

Ex:39:1:
And of the blue,
and purple,
and scarlet,
they made cloths of service,
to do service in the holy place,
and made the holy garments for Aaron;
as the LORD commanded Moses.

Ex:39:2:
And he made the ephod of gold,
blue,
and purple,
and scarlet,
and fine twined linen.
Ex:39:3:
And they did beat the gold into thin plates,
and cut it into wires,
to work it in the blue,
and in the purple,
and in the scarlet,
and in the fine linen,
with cunning work.
Ex:39:5:
And the curious girdle of his ephod,
that was upon it,
was of the same,
according to the work thereof;
of gold,
blue,
and purple,
and scarlet,
and fine twined linen;
as the LORD commanded Moses.

Ex:39:8:
And he made the breastplate of cunning work,
like the work of the ephod;
of gold,
blue,
and purple,
and scarlet,
and fine twined linen.

Ex:39:24:
And they made upon the hems of the robe pomegranates of blue,
and purple,
and scarlet,
and twined linen.

Ex:39:29:
And a girdle of fine twined linen,
and blue,
and purple,
and scarlet,
of needlework;
as the LORD commanded Moses.

Spilled the blood of those who bore the testimony of Christ.

That most assuredly is Rome, not Israel or Jerusalem.

Again you fail to see that all prophets since Moses had something to say about Christ, that is testimony;

Lu:24:27:
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets,
he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

M'r:1:2:
As it is written in the prophets,
Behold,
I send my messenger before thy face,
which shall prepare thy way before thee.

Rome controlled Jerusalem from the time of Christ through the 70AD dismanteling. Rome butchered Christians under the Emporers. Rome did the Inquisition.

There is no room for Jerusalem in either of these descriptive points.

Again staying with Scripture both points do have verses that address them;

M't:23:29:
Woe unto you,
scribes and Pharisees,
hypocrites!
because ye build the tombs of the prophets,
and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
M't:23:30:
And say,
If we had been in the days of our fathers,
we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
M't:23:31:
Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves,
that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

M't:23:34:
Wherefore,
behold,
I send unto you prophets,
and wise men,
and scribes:
and some of them ye shall kill and crucify;
and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues,
and persecute them from city to city:

M't:23:37:
O Jerusalem,
Jerusalem,
thou that killest the prophets,
and stonest them which are sent unto thee,
how often would I have gathered thy children together,
even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings,
and ye would not!

Lu:11:49:
Therefore also said the wisdom of God,
I will send them prophets and apostles,
and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
Lu:11:50:
That the blood of all the prophets,
which was shed from the foundation of the world,
may be required of this generation;

Lu:13:34:
O Jerusalem,
Jerusalem,
which killest the prophets,
and stonest them that are sent unto thee;
how often would I have gathered thy children together,
as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings,
and ye would not!

Ac:3:21:
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things,
which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Ac:3:24:
Yea,
and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after,
as many as have spoken,
have likewise foretold of these days.

Ac:7:52:
Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted?
and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One;
of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

Ro:11:3:
Lord,
they have killed thy prophets,
and digged down thine altars;
and I am left alone,
and they seek my life.

1Th:2:15:
Who both killed the Lord Jesus,
and their own prophets,
and have persecuted us;
and they please not God,
and are contrary to all men:


Don't go back to the OT. This says those killed were of Christ.

As stated before, all prophets since Moses bore testimony of Christ.

Right there Rome is declared Mystery Babylon.



7 heads and 10 horns corresponds to the 7 kings of the 5 Empires of the statue. And the 10 horns to the Ten Toes Rome collapsed into and out of which the AC and his empire will rise.

Again, not Jerusalem.[QUOTE]

[QUOTE]City on 7 Hills is Rome. It is called that.

Scripture that supports this please, there are seven mounts (more properly hills) associated with Jerusalem.

http://askelm.com/prophecy/p000201.htm

But strange as it may seem, the City of Jerusalem as it existed in the time of Christ Jesus was also reckoned to be the "City of Seven Hills." This fact was well recognized in Jewish circles. In the Pirke de-Rabbi Eliezer, an eighth century midrashic narrative (section 10), the writer mentioned without commentary (showing that the understanding was well known and required no defense) that "Jerusalem is situated on seven hills" (recorded in The Book of Legends, edited by Bialik and Ravnitzky, p. 371, paragraph 111). And, so it was. Those "seven hills" are easy to identify. If one starts with the Mount of Olives just to the east of the main City of Jerusalem (but still reckoned to be located within the environs of Jerusalem), there are three summits to that Mount of Olives. The northern summit (hill) is called Scopus [Hill One], the middle summit (hill) was called Nob [Hill Two], the highest point of Olivet itself, and the southern summit (hill) was called in the Holy Scriptures the "Mount of Corruption" or "Mount of Offence" [Hill Three] (II Kings 23:13). On the middle ridge between the Kedron and the Tyropoeon Valleys there was (formerly) in the south "Mount Zion" [Hill Four] (the original "Mount Zion" and not the later southwest hill that was later called by that name), then the "Ophel Mount" [Hill Five] and then to the north of that the "Rock" around which "Fort Antonia" was built [Hill Six]. And finally, there was the southwest hill itself [Hill Seven] that finally became known in the time of Simon the Hasmonean as the new "Mount Zion." This makes "Seven Hills" in all.

The above link also covers other places with seven hills.

And 7 kings. Back to the statue, with its 7 kings.

No bearing on who the woman is, only who she is in league with, and while you say it is the EU Scripture says the men who recieve power from one hour with the Beast come into their kingdoms at that time. This would eliminate any existing country in existance at that time, you can't recieve something you alraedy have;

Re:17:12:
And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings,
which have received no kingdom as yet;
but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

The AC is the Beast who was, is not and will be is Alexander the Great. More correctly his demon.
Again you have no Scripture to show this is Alex and 'his demon' would have existed even before the flood of Noah's time

And the king to come is from the Ten Toes as the restored Roman Empire, the EU in its current form.
Go ahead paint your wisdom into a corner, only time will tell who these are, it could be the 10 most corrupt people in all of the world at the time meeting with the Beast.

They will destroy the Roman Catholic Church and revert it to the a Pagan form worshipping the AC.
I thought you thought they were alraedy a pagan Church?

Prostitute, as in Apostate RCC.
Jer:13:27:
I have seen thine adulteries,
and thy neighings,
the lewdness of thy whoredom,
and thine abominations on the hills in the fields.
Woe unto thee,
O Jerusalem!
wilt thou not be made clean?
when shall it once be?

The death and destruction Rome committed on the Church will be visited back on Rome.[QUOTE]
Most likely, notice how God is calling to His people to come out of her, why would Jews be in Rome at this time?

[QUOTE]Again, the colors of Rome and the RCC.


Finally, this most assuredly eliminates Jerusalem. For it is never totally destroyed and will be the City and Throne of Christ in the MK.

Rome. No way Jerusalem.

La:2:14:
Thy prophets have seen vain and foolish things for thee:
and they have not discovered thine iniquity,
to turn away thy captivity;
but have seen for thee false burdens and causes of banishment.
La:2:15:
All that pass by clap their hands at thee;
they hiss and wag their head at the daughter of Jerusalem,
saying,
Is this the city that men call The perfection of beauty,
The joy of the whole earth?
La:2:16:
All thine enemies have opened their mouth against thee:
they hiss and gnash the teeth:
they say,
We have swallowed her up:
certainly this is the day that we looked for;
we have found,
we have seen it.
La:2:17:
The LORD hath done that which he had devised;
he hath fulfilled his word that he had commanded in the days of old:
he hath thrown down,
and hath not pitied:
and he hath caused thine enemy to rejoice over thee,
he hath set up the horn of thine adversaries.
La:2:18:
Their heart cried unto the Lord,
O wall of the daughter of Zion,
let tears run down like a river day and night:
give thyself no rest;
let not the apple of thine eye cease.
La:2:19:
Arise,
cry out in the night:
in the beginning of the watches pour out thine heart like water before the face of the Lord: lift up thy hands toward him for the life of thy young children,
that faint for hunger in the top of every street.
La:2:20:
Behold,
O LORD,
and consider to whom thou hast done this.
Sh