Day of the Lord

[CoreIssue]

DOTL - Hebrew and Greek Exact Phrase Verses
There have been so many claims, points, doctrines, positions expressed on the Day of the Lord, I thought it would be good to even test my own position against what the verses that expressly stated DOTL in the Hebrew and Greek.

I will admit a couple of my thoughts went down the drain. While no damage to my overall beliefs on the issue, there was change.

I used the Interlinear to search out the Hebrew and Greek. In the Hebrew the term DOTL is "hwhy ewy" and in the Greek is "hmera kuriou" as used in the Interlinear data base. These are the verses where the exact term DOTL is used:

Isaiah 13: 6
Joel 1: 15
Joel 3: 14
Amos 5: 18
Amos 5: 20
Zephaniah 1: 7
Zephaniah 1: 14
Malachi 4: 15
1 Thessalonians 5: 2
2 Peter 3: 10

And those are the ONLY verses it is used in per the Interlinear original language database.

Now, I know some will wish to immediately launch into pulling in other verses to support his doctrine. But, for here, I am only looking at these specific verses to establish the Biblical foundation for the term DOTL. You should do the same. If they will not support your doctrine all the other verses in the Bible will not make your doctrine correct.

There are too many verses to do a full post of every verse plus all the Interlinear word definitions. So, I will only post the key issues within each set of verses.

ISAIAH 13: 6

Isaiah 13 is the battle of Armageddon. I do not think there is really any need to expound here. So, the Second Coming is in the Day of the Lord.

JOEL 1: 15

Joel 1 is talking about the Great Tribulation. Look at:
1. Verse 6 is the AC at the Mid. He is spoken of in the past tense.
2. Verses 7 through 14 and 16 on continue to be past tense. And they are issues of the Mid and the Great Trib.
3. Verse 15 contain the DOTL. Now, look at the definition of day. Day is not limited to a 24 hour period. Hand means near. But, does it mean near in the sense of yet to come or near in the sense of completion? Remember the previous verses are all past tense? Well the tense changes in verse 15 to:
Qal
Qal is the most frequently used verb pattern. It expresses the "simple" or "casual" action of the root in the active voice.
Examples:
he sat, he ate, he went, he said, he rose, he bought
This form accounts for 66.7% of the verbs parsed.

Word Mood
Imperfect
The imperfect expresses an action, process or condition which is incomplete, and it has a wide range of meaning:

It is used to describe a single (as opposed to a repeated) action in the past; it differs from the perfect in being more vivid and pictorial. The perfect expresses the "fact", the imperfect adds colour and movement by suggesting the "process" preliminary to its completion.
he put forth his hand to the door
it came to a halt
I began to hear

A phrase such as "What seekest thou?", refers not only to the present, but assumes that the search has continued for some time.
Why do you weep?
Why refuse to eat?
Why are you distressed?

These relate not so much as to one occasion, as to a continued condition.

The kind of progression or imperfection and unfinished condition of the action may consist in its frequent repetition.
In the present:
it is "said" today
a wise son "maketh glad" his father

In the past:
"and so he did" - regularly, year by year
a mist "used to go up"
the fish which "we used to eat"
the manna "came down" - regularly
he "spoke" - repeatedly

The imperfect is used to express the "future", referring not only to an action which is about to be accomplished but one which has not yet begun:
This may be a future from the point of view of the real present; as:
Now "shalt thou see what I will do"
"We will burn" thy house

It may be a future from any other point of view assumed; as:
he took his son that "was to reign"
she stayed to see what "should be done"

The usage of 3b may be taken as the transitive to a common use of the imperfect in which it serves for an expression of those shades of relation among acts and thoughts for which English prefers the conditional moods. Such actions are strictly "future" in reference to the assumed point of relation, and the simple imperfect sufficiently expresses them; e.g.
of every tree thou "mayest eat"
"could we know"
he "would" say

The imperfect follows particles expressing "transition", "purpose", "result" and so forth as, "in order that", "lest"; e.g.
say thou art my sister, "that it may be well with thee"
let us deal wisely with the nation, "lest it multiplies"

When however there is a strong feeling of "purpose", or when it is meant to be strongly marked, then of course the moods are employed; e.g.
raise me up "that I may requite them"
who will entice Ahab "that he may go up"
what shall we do "that the sea may be calm"

So, I can hear Post saying "See, future event yet to come" is part of the definition. Yes, the usage allows for that but it is used in reference here to destruction that is already happened and is still happening. You cannot claim a future start to what is already in progress.

The usage here is clearly referring to the concluding of what begun at the Mid as regards Israel. Note, Israel, not the whole world. To attempt to assign meaning of future only to one sentence in the middle of a whole chapter dealing with destruction is not a viable or logical assertion.

Verse 15 talks about what is and its future conclusion. The whole GT is the DOTL.

JOEL 3: 14

Joel 3 is again referring to the GT. Verse 1 is again the Mid. In those days and at that time they will again go into captivity. And the description continues through verse 6.

And what is one of the things he does during that time and in the first 6 verses? Verse 2 says he "also" gathers them to the battle of Armageddon, which is the Second Coming.

Verses 7 on say how God responds to the actions of the AC and the nations.

And in verse 14 he calls this "time" referred to in verse 1 the DOTL. Look at the definition of "day". "Time" is a definition.

Again, you cannot strip one verse out of the passage and assign it a different meaning than the rest of the passage. Especially when the verses constitute a continuous flow of one subject.

AMOS 5: 18, 20

Amos 5 talks about issues in Israel and with the Jews. It says woe to those who wish for the DOTL. That day will be dark, not light.

First point is that day does not always mean 24 hours. It also means a specific period of defined time.

Second, darkness means:
darkness, obscurity
a. darkness
b. secret place
Read the descriptions of the destruction that hits the earth during the Trib. If you are aware of what such destruction would do to the atmosphere, then you know there are not going to be bright sun shiny days. There will be a lot of particulates in the air making the world a much darker place. Visions will be obscured. If you are not aware of what will happen due to the destruction God sends, then you need to study up on it the issues.

So, the issue of darkening the sky will not be limited to one day.

ZEPHANIAH 1: 7, 14

Zephaniah 1 Read the chapter and then read the Trumpets and Bowls of Revelation. The Great Trib again. And again the DOTL is term used to cover the whole chapter. Again, you cannot split it out of the flow of the whole chapter.

MALACHI 4: 5

Malachi 4 is a warning against the DOTL. And note two things:
1. Elijah will be sent before the DOTL. So, he cannot be sent during the GT because that is during the DOTL.
2. It says if Israel does not turn back to God because of Elijah God will strike Israel with a curse. The Two Witnesses come in the first half of the Trib. Israel does not turn back to God, meaning Christ. So, he strikes Israel with the curse of the DOTL, which is the GT which ends at the Second Coming, where they do turn to Christ.


Now, before moving on it is important to say that these verses deal with Israel and the Jews, not the Gentile Church. There is no mention of the Rapture here. No mention of coming as a thief in the night. None at all. Nor how the DOTL would impact the whole world. So, as regards the Jews, the DOTL begins Mid Trib and ends at the Second Coming.

1 THESSALONIANS 5: 2

1 Thessalonians 4: 13 through 5: 11 is the Rapture. Now here we have the introduction of thief in the night. And the Rapture is called DOTL. Plus, destruction immediately follows.

So, while the DOTL begins for Israel at the Mid, it begins for the Church at the Rapture/Revealing of the AC/Appearance of the Two Witnesses.

2 PETER 3: 10

2 Peter 3
6
By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed.
7
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Here is a clear declaration of the heavens and the earth being reserved for destruction.

Now a lot say this is referring to the Flood. I disagree. I firmly believe this refers to the destruction of Gen 1: 2.

Now, moving on:
10
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.[1]
11
Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
12
as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.[2] That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.

Now, in the KJV for reference to the Interlinear:

10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Verse 10;
PASS AWAY:
to go past, pass by
of persons moving forward
to pass by
of time
an act continuing for a time
metaph.
to pass away, peris
to pass by (pass over), that is, to neglect, omit, (transgress)
to be led by, to be carried past, be averted
to come near, come forward, arrive

**PASS AWAY MEANS TO PERISH. THE HEAVENS WILL PERISH.

ELEMENTS:
any first thing, from which the others belonging to some series or composite whole take their rise, an element, first principal
the letters of the alphabet as the elements of speech, not however the written characters, but the spoken sounds
the elements from which all things have come, the material causes of the universe
the heavenly bodies, either as parts of the heavens or (as others think) because in them the elements of man, life and destiny were supposed to reside
the elements, rudiments, primary and fundamental principles of any art, science, or discipline
i.e. of mathematics, Euclid's geometry

**THE VERY PARTICLES FROM WHICH THE HEAVENS ARE MADE.

MELT:
to loose any person (or thing) tied or fastened
bandages of the feet, the shoes,
of a husband and wife joined together by the bond of matrimony
of a single man, whether he has already had a wife or has not yet married
to loose one bound, i.e. to unbind, release from bonds, set free
of one bound up (swathed in bandages)
bound with chains (a prisoner), discharge from prison, let go
to loosen, undo, dissolve, anything bound, tied, or compacted together
an assembly, i.e. to dismiss, break up
laws, as having a binding force, are likened to bonds
to annul, subvert
to do away with, to deprive of authority, whether by precept or act
to declare unlawful
to loose what is compacted or built together, to break up, demolish, destroy
to dissolve something coherent into parts, to destroy
metaph., to overthrow, to do away with

**THAT WHICH BINDS THE COMPONENT PARTS OF THE HEAVENS TOGETHER WILL BECOME UNBOUND. THE VERY FABRIC OF THE HEAVENS WILL DISSOLVE.

EARTH ALSO:
and, also, even, indeed, but

**ALL THAT HAPPENS TO THE HEAVENS WILL HAPPEN TO THE EARTH.

BURNED UP:
to burn up, consume by fire

**SEE MELT.

Verse 11:
DISSOLVE:
to loose any person (or thing) tied or fastened
bandages of the feet, the shoes,
of a husband and wife joined together by the bond of matrimony
of a single man, whether he has already had a wife or has not yet married
to loose one bound, i.e. to unbind, release from bonds, set free
of one bound up (swathed in bandages)
bound with chains (a prisoner), discharge from prison, let go
to loosen, undo, dissolve, anything bound, tied, or compacted together
an assembly, i.e. to dismiss, break up
laws, as having a binding force, are likened to bonds
to annul, subvert
to do away with, to deprive of authority, whether by precept or act
to declare unlawful
to loose what is compacted or built together, to break up, demolish, destroy
to dissolve something coherent into parts, to destroy
metaph., to overthrow, to do away with
**IDENTICAL MEANING TO MELT. ALL THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH ARE MELTED, DISSOLVED.

Verse 12:
FIRE:
to burn with fire, to set on fire, kindle
to be on fire, to burn
to be incensed, indignant
make to glow
full of fire, fiery, ignited 1b
of darts filled with inflammable substances and set on fire
melted by fire and purged of dross

**CROSS REFERENCE WITH MELT.

DISSOLVED, ELEMENTS, MELT:

**DEFINITIONS ALREADY GIVEN. AGAIN, TOTAL DESTRUCTION OF THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH.

HEAT:
to burn up, set fire to
to suffer with feverish burning, be parched with fever

All meanings are very clear. This is the end of the world. Total final destruction of the present heavens and the earth. And it is a single presentation to both Jews and Gentiles.

So, here is what I see the verses saying:
1. The Rapture starts the DOTL. It comes like a thief in the night.
2. Elijah comes before the DOTL as regards Israel.
3. The sudden destruction strikes all the earth but Israel in the form of the Seals. Gentiles enter DOTL.
4. Israel rejects the efforts of the Elijah to get them to turn to Christ.
5. God sends a curse on Israel, the DOTL.
6. The DOTL contains the AC invasion at the Mid for Israel.
7. The DOTL curse contains the events described in the Trumpets and Bowls.
8. The DOTL curse ends with the Second Coming where Israel accepts Christ and he comes as their savior and king at the Battle of Armageddon.
9. The DOTL continues through the MK where Christ rules the world with an iron scepter.
10. The DOTL ends with the destruction of the Heavens and the earth at the end of time.

[MHz]

'I will admit a couple of my thoughts went down the drain. While no damage to my overall beliefs on the issue, there was change.'

And these were which ones?

[MHz]

Hi Core,

ISAIAH 13: 6

Isaiah 13 is the battle of Armageddon. I do not think there is really any need to expound here. So, the Second Coming is in the Day of the Lord.

[[ Can’t argue this one for sure]]

JOEL 1: 15
[[Joe:1:15: Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
Destruction via the 7 plagues that make up the whole wrath of God;

Re:15:1:
And I saw another sign in heaven,
great and marvellous,
seven angels having the seven last plagues;
for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Re:15:7:
And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God,
who liveth for ever and ever.]]


Verse 15 talks about what is and its future conclusion. The whole GT is the DOTL.
[[part of an never ending day]]

JOEL 3: 14

Verse 2 says he "also" gathers them to the battle of Armageddon, which is the Second Coming.

[[and fights them in person]]


AMOS 5: 18, 20

Amos 5 talks about issues in Israel and with the Jews. It says woe to those who wish for the DOTL. That day will be dark, not light.

[[ like in the last of 3 woes, more about that day;

Am:9:11:
In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen,
and close up the breaches thereof;
and I will raise up his ruins,
and I will build it as in the days of old:

Am:9:14:
And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel,
and they shall build the waste cities,
and inhabit them;
and they shall plant vineyards,
and drink the wine thereof;
they shall also make gardens,
and eat the fruit of them.
Am:9:15:
And I will plant them upon their land,
and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them,
saith the LORD thy God.]]

So, the issue of darkening the sky will not be limited to one day.

[[Zec:14:7:
But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD,
not day,
nor night:
but it shall come to pass,
that at evening time it shall be light.]]

ZEPHANIAH 1: 7, 14

Zephaniah 1 Read the chapter and then read the Trumpets and Bowls of Revelation. The Great Trib again. And again the DOTL is term used to cover the whole chapter. Again, you cannot split it out of the flow of the whole chapter.

[[ the whole book is about this, all 3 chapters;

Zep:2:2:
Before the decree bring forth,
before the day pass as the chaff,
before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you,
before the day of the LORD's anger come upon you.
Zep:2:3:
Seek ye the LORD,
all ye meek of the earth,
which have wrought his judgment;
seek righteousness,
seek meekness:
it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD's anger.

Zep:3:8:
Therefore wait ye upon me,
saith the LORD,
until the day that I rise up to the prey:
for my determination is to gather the nations,
that I may assemble the kingdoms,
to pour upon them mine indignation,
even all my fierce anger:
for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.
Zep:3:9:
For then will I turn to the people a pure language,
that they may all call upon the name of the LORD,
to serve him with one consent.
Zep:3:10:
From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia my suppliants,
even the daughter of my dispersed,
shall bring mine offering.
Zep:3:11:
In that day shalt thou not be ashamed for all thy doings,
wherein thou hast transgressed against me:
for then I will take away out of the midst of thee them that rejoice in thy pride,
and thou shalt no more be haughty because of my holy mountain.
]]

MALACHI 4: 5

Malachi 4 is a warning against the DOTL. And note two things:
1. Elijah will be sent before the DOTL. So, he cannot be sent during the GT because that is during the DOTL.
2. It says if Israel does not turn back to God because of Elijah God will strike Israel with a curse. The Two Witnesses come in the first half of the Trib. Israel does not turn back to God, meaning Christ. So, he strikes Israel with the curse of the DOTL, which is the GT which ends at the Second Coming, where they do turn to Christ.

[[ it says the earth will be struck with a curse, not just Israel.
Destruction of the wicked, believers are untouched;
Mal:4:1:
For,
behold,
the day cometh,
that shall burn as an oven;
and all the proud,
yea,
and all that do wickedly,
shall be stubble:
and the day that cometh shall burn them up,
saith the LORD of hosts,
that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal:4:2:
But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings;
and ye shall go forth,
and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal:4:3:
And ye shall tread down the wicked;
for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this,
saith the LORD of hosts.]]


1 THESSALONIANS 5: 2

1 Thessalonians 4: 13 through 5: 11 is the Rapture. Now here we have the introduction of thief in the night. And the Rapture is called DOTL. Plus, destruction immediately follows.

So, while the DOTL begins for Israel at the Mid, it begins for the Church at the Rapture/Revealing of the AC/Appearance of the Two Witnesses.

[[ now it seems to me that you are saying believers are taken out of the world and destruction for the rest right after, so much for your allowing others to be gathered for anything but destruction]]


2 PETER 3: 10

7
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Here is a clear declaration of the heavens and the earth being reserved for destruction.

[[Fire from Heaven at the end of Satan’s little season as in Vs:12 ‘day of God;
Isa:51:6:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
and look upon the earth beneath:
for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke,
and the earth shall wax old like a garment,
and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner:
but my salvation shall be for ever,
and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

Jude:1:4:
For there are certain men crept in unawares,
who were before of old ordained to this condemnation,
ungodly men,
turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness,
and denying the only Lord God,
and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jude:1:6:
And the angels which kept not their first estate,
but left their own habitation,
he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.]]

10
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.[1]

[[ 6th vial and then the verse you didn’t post the MK referenced to as one day brings you up to Satan’s little season and Vs:12 ‘day of God]]

11
Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
12
as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.[2] That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.

[[Re:20:11:
And I saw a great white throne,
and him that sat on it,
from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away;
and there was found no place for them.

You don’t include Judgement Day as part of the Lord’s Day

Heb:12:22:
But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb:12:23:
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb:12:24:
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,
and to the blood of sprinkling,
that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Heb:12:25:
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh.
For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth,
much more shall not we escape,
if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
Heb:12:26:
Whose voice then shook the earth:
but now he hath promised,
saying,
Yet once more I shake not the earth only,
but also heaven.
Heb:12:27:
And this word,
Yet once more,
signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken,
as of things that are made,
that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Heb:12:28:
Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved,
let us have grace,
whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Heb:12:29:
For our God is a consuming fire.

Nor do you include this as being a part of the Day of the Lord;

Re:22:4:
And they shall see his face;
and his name shall be in their foreheads.
Re:22:5:
And there shall be no night there;
and they need no candle,
neither light of the sun;
for the Lord God giveth them light:
and they shall reign for ever and ever.]]

[CoreIssue]

Hi MHz,

Hi Core,

ISAIAH 13: 6

Isaiah 13 is the battle of Armageddon. I do not think there is really any need to expound here. So, the Second Coming is in the Day of the Lord.

[[ Can’t argue this one for sure]]
OK

JOEL 1: 15
[[Joe:1:15: Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
Destruction via the 7 plagues that make up the whole wrath of God;
There is destruction in the Seals as well. And they are God's Seals.

Re:15:1:
And I saw another sign in heaven,
great and marvellous,
seven angels having the seven last plagues;
for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Re:15:7:
And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God,
who liveth for ever and ever.]]
Which skips over the issues of the Seals and Trumpets. There is wrath in them as well.

Verse 15 talks about what is and its future conclusion. The whole GT is the DOTL.
[[part of an never ending day]]
It ends. New Heavens and New Earth are not included in DOTL.

JOEL 3: 14

Verse 2 says he "also" gathers them to the battle of Armageddon, which is the Second Coming.

[[and fights them in person]]
Yes. And they are gathered to Armageddon in the 6th Bowl which is before the Second Coming and a lot more than 1 day. And is part of the Trib.

AMOS 5: 18, 20

Amos 5 talks about issues in Israel and with the Jews. It says woe to those who wish for the DOTL. That day will be dark, not light.

[[ like in the last of 3 woes, more about that day;
Does not make it one 24 hour day.

Am:9:11:
In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen,
and close up the breaches thereof;
and I will raise up his ruins,
and I will build it as in the days of old:

After the Second Coming in the MK.
Am:9:14:
And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel,
and they shall build the waste cities,
and inhabit them;
and they shall plant vineyards,
and drink the wine thereof;
they shall also make gardens,
and eat the fruit of them.
Am:9:15:
And I will plant them upon their land,
and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them,
saith the LORD thy God.]]

Second Coming and after.

[[Zec:14:7:
But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD,
not day,
nor night:
but it shall come to pass,
that at evening time it shall be light.]]

Does not make DOTL one 24 hour day.
ZEPHANIAH 1: 7, 14

Zephaniah 1 Read the chapter and then read the Trumpets and Bowls of Revelation. The Great Trib again. And again the DOTL is term used to cover the whole chapter. Again, you cannot split it out of the flow of the whole chapter.

[[ the whole book is about this, all 3 chapters;

Zep:2:2:
Before the decree bring forth,
before the day pass as the chaff,
before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you,
before the day of the LORD's anger come upon you.
Zep:2:3:
Seek ye the LORD,
all ye meek of the earth,
which have wrought his judgment;
seek righteousness,
seek meekness:
it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD's anger.

Zep:3:8:
Therefore wait ye upon me,
saith the LORD,
until the day that I rise up to the prey:
for my determination is to gather the nations,
that I may assemble the kingdoms,
to pour upon them mine indignation,
even all my fierce anger:
for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.
Zep:3:9:
For then will I turn to the people a pure language,
that they may all call upon the name of the LORD,
to serve him with one consent.
Zep:3:10:
From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia my suppliants,
even the daughter of my dispersed,
shall bring mine offering.
Zep:3:11:
In that day shalt thou not be ashamed for all thy doings,
wherein thou hast transgressed against me:
for then I will take away out of the midst of thee them that rejoice in thy pride,
and thou shalt no more be haughty because of my holy mountain.
]]


And all is DOTL
MALACHI 4: 5

Malachi 4 is a warning against the DOTL. And note two things:
1. Elijah will be sent before the DOTL. So, he cannot be sent during the GT because that is during the DOTL.
2. It says if Israel does not turn back to God because of Elijah God will strike Israel with a curse. The Two Witnesses come in the first half of the Trib. Israel does not turn back to God, meaning Christ. So, he strikes Israel with the curse of the DOTL, which is the GT which ends at the Second Coming, where they do turn to Christ.

[[ it says the earth will be struck with a curse, not just Israel.

No. Malachi only deals with Israel. The rest of the world has been in DOTL since the First Seal.


Destruction of the wicked, believers are untouched;
Now you departed for the subject of Malachi.
Mal:4:1:
For,
behold,
the day cometh,
that shall burn as an oven;
and all the proud,
yea,
and all that do wickedly,
shall be stubble:
and the day that cometh shall burn them up,
saith the LORD of hosts,
that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal:4:2:
But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings;
and ye shall go forth,
and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal:4:3:
And ye shall tread down the wicked;
for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this,
saith the LORD of hosts.]]


ONLY talking about Israel here.

And indeed the saints of Israel under Elijah are the Woman and will be protected while the remaining 2/3 of Israel is destroyed.

This is not about the whole world. It is addressed only to Israel.

Church is gone. Israel is restored.

1 THESSALONIANS 5: 2

1 Thessalonians 4: 13 through 5: 11 is the Rapture. Now here we have the introduction of thief in the night. And the Rapture is called DOTL. Plus, destruction immediately follows.

So, while the DOTL begins for Israel at the Mid, it begins for the Church at the Rapture/Revealing of the AC/Appearance of the Two Witnesses.

[[ now it seems to me that you are saying believers are taken out of the world and destruction for the rest right after, so much for your allowing others to be gathered for anything but destruction]]


You are not listening.

Church is Raptured Pre-Trib. Trib saints now begin to appear as the Trib unfolds. They are handed over to Satan. Not Church.

Those under the Alter and coming out of the Great Trib (42 months of Satan) are Trib Saints, not Church.

They are saved during the Trib.

I never said they were rescued out of the Trib upon salvation.

Clearly many are not. They are the martyrs in Heaven as clearly declared.

Those that survive enter the MK fully alive and in the flesh.

So, yes, Gentiles and Jews are saved during the Trib. But no, they are not protected as you claim.

Just seeing the martyrs coming out of the Trib should be enough for you to understand that.

2 PETER 3: 10

7
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Here is a clear declaration of the heavens and the earth being reserved for destruction.

[[Fire from Heaven at the end of Satan’s little season as in Vs:12 ‘day of God;

Which destroys the earth totally. And the Heavens.

And is Day of God, not DOTL. See that?
Isa:51:6:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
and look upon the earth beneath:
for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke,
and the earth shall wax old like a garment,
and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner:
but my salvation shall be for ever,
and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
Yep.

Jude:1:4:
For there are certain men crept in unawares,
who were before of old ordained to this condemnation,
ungodly men,
turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness,
and denying the only Lord God,
and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jude:1:6:
And the angels which kept not their first estate,
but left their own habitation,
he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.]]
Day of God, right?

10
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.[1]

[[ 6th vial and then the verse you didn’t post the MK referenced to as one day brings you up to Satan’s little season and Vs:12 ‘day of God]]

This is about DOTL in the Bible. Not other verses that can be about it or are assumed.

And besides, the Bowls are in the Trib, not after the Short Time. At least 1,000 time spread there.

There are two, not one, Thief in the Nights in the Bible. One Pre-Trib and one Post MK.
11
Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
12
as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.[2] That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
Day of God. Not DOTL

[[Re:20:11:
And I saw a great white throne,
and him that sat on it,
from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away;
and there was found no place for them.

You don’t include Judgement Day as part of the Lord’s Day
Nope. Day of God.

Heb:12:22:
But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb:12:23:
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb:12:24:
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,
and to the blood of sprinkling,
that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Heb:12:25:
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh.
For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth,
much more shall not we escape,
if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
Heb:12:26:
Whose voice then shook the earth:
but now he hath promised,
saying,
Yet once more I shake not the earth only,
but also heaven.
Heb:12:27:
And this word,
Yet once more,
signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken,
as of things that are made,
that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Heb:12:28:
Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved,
let us have grace,
whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Heb:12:29:
For our God is a consuming fire.

Nor do you include this as being a part of the Day of the Lord;

It does not say DOTL in it.

The purpose of the study was to show explicitly what was called DOTL.

You are interjecting verses and such which was the whole purpose of the article. To avoid doctrinal insertions as if the Bible actual say DOTL.

And this passage is not DOTL. It is talking past and present time realities for saints.
Re:22:4:
And they shall see his face;
and his name shall be in their foreheads.
Re:22:5:
And there shall be no night there;
and they need no candle,
neither light of the sun;
for the Lord God giveth them light:
and they shall reign for ever and ever.]]
Yep. Which again is not DOTL. But eternal promises.

See what is happening? You are inserting DOTL where not said because of your doctrine.

Where DOTL lays a clear foundation for understanding. It is precisely related to events Pre-Trib Rapture to the end of the earth. Nothing more.

[MHz]

Hi Core,

"Malachi only deals with Israel. The rest of the world has been in DOTL since the First Seal."

Two starting times for the very same day, you need new batteries for your calculator.

[CoreIssue]

Hi Core,

"Malachi only deals with Israel. The rest of the world has been in DOTL since the First Seal."

Two starting times for the very same day, you need new batteries for your calculator.

Nope.

Israel joins the show in progress.

Time frame is clearly laid out in just the verses stating DOTL. It begins before the Second Coming and includes the Trib issues.

[MHz]

Nope.

Israel joins the show in progress.

Time frame is clearly laid out in just the verses stating DOTL. It begins before the Second Coming and includes the Trib issues.

The first gathered to Christ, sealed just before the 1st trump;

Re:14:4: These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

The Gentiles, including Church, is afterwards;

1Co:15:20: But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co:15:23: But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

[CoreIssue]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreIssue
Nope.

Israel joins the show in progress.

Time frame is clearly laid out in just the verses stating DOTL. It begins before the Second Coming and includes the Trib issues.


The first gathered to Christ, sealed just before the 1st trump;

Re:14:4: These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

The Gentiles, including Church, is afterwards;

1Co:15:20: But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co:15:23: But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


Nope.

There are saints at the First Seal. The 24 Elders. Resurrected, glorifed and rewarded.

There is no Church in the Trib.

The 144,000 are not gathered until the Second Coming. And they are not Raptured, Resurrected, Glorified or any such thing at that time.

Not his Second Coming. But coming in the clouds in Rapture. All saints from the time of Adam on to the time of the Rapture go then.

Next is the Two at Mid. Again before the Second Coming and then the Trib saints at the Second Coming. You see them as spirits standing before the thrones of the those already glorified and from the Pre-Trib Rapture.

Solidly refutes your position.

[MHz]

The 144,000 are not gathered until the Second Coming.



You did get the 144,000 right, then the Gentiles and the rest of the whole house of Israel

[CoreIssue]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreIssue
The 144,000 are not gathered until the Second Coming.




You did get the 144,000 right, then the Gentiles and the rest of the whole house of Israel
Only living Israel is gathered to Jerusalem. The dead and Gentiles are not.

The Trib saints are Resurrected.

The unsaved Jews and Gentiles remain in Hell where they belong. And they will go into the Lake for eternity.

[CoreIssue]

MHz,

It is becoming very obvious you just skip over the things that refute you or you do not like.

As in the 24 Elders there at the First Seal, Revelation 3:10 stating the Church will not be there, the verse stating live once and then get judged, repentence is required for salvation and on and on.

Salvation after death is just not Biblical.

[MHz]

MHz,

It is becoming very obvious you just skip over the things that refute you or you do not like.

As in the 24 Elders there at the First Seal, Revelation 3:10 stating the Church will not be there, the verse stating live once and then get judged, repentence is required for salvation and on and on.

Salvation after death is just not Biblical.
Hi Core,

How many words of Scripture did you just reject from Re:7?

What is it to you who is shown mercy to, one time, or that some are not saved until the last day. These are God's creations, to do with as He will.

M't:20:8:
So when even was come,
the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward,
Call the labourers,
and give them their hire,
beginning from the last unto the first.
M't:20:9:
And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour,
they received every man a penny.
M't:20:10:
But when the first came,
they supposed that they should have received more;
and they likewise received every man a penny.
M't:20:11:
And when they had received it,
they murmured against the goodman of the house,
M't:20:12:
Saying,
These last have wrought but one hour,
and thou hast made them equal unto us,
which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
M't:20:13:
But he answered one of them,
and said,
Friend,
I do thee no wrong:
didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
M't:20:14:
Take that thine is,
and go thy way:
I will give unto this last,
even as unto thee.
M't:20:15:
Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own?
Is thine eye evil,
because I am good?
M't:20:16:
So the last shall be first,
and the first last:
for many be called,
but few chosen.

M't:18:4:
Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child,
the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

M't:23:12:
And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased;
and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Lu:14:11:
For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased;
and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Lu:18:14:
I tell you,
this man went down to his house justified rather than the other:
for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased;
and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

[CoreIssue]

I stated why I did not accept your spin on them.

You keep going elsewhere instead of making any statment on what I post.

I will repost that in Daniel and maybe this time you will address it.

[MHz]

I stated why I did not accept your spin on them.

You keep going elsewhere instead of making any statment on what I post.

I will repost that in Daniel and maybe this time you will address it.

My spin?
Why do I have to even explain what the great tribulation is, it is used in Scripture but two times besides this. They both point to the destruction of the wicked at Christ's return

[CoreIssue]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreIssue
I stated why I did not accept your spin on them.

You keep going elsewhere instead of making any statment on what I post.

I will repost that in Daniel and maybe this time you will address it.


My spin?
Why do I have to even explain what the great tribulation is, it is used in Scripture but two times besides this. They both point to the destruction of the wicked at Christ's return

What is with your number counts equal greater truth? God does not mean it if only stated once? Yeeesh.

Yes. The phrase Great Trib is limited. But it is well defined as the Second Half of the Trib. And Trib is used as well with a distinct meaning from Great Trib.

And yes, the Second Coming of Christ follows the 7th Bowl.

No. The Great Trib never refers to anything at or after the Second Coming. It is before the Second Coming.

The Trib is 7 years long. The Great Trib is the Second 3.5 years, the 42 months of Satan.

Yes, there is destruction of the wicked, but no, not the same destruction as Armageddon.

I stated the problem with you reorganizing times and events out of given order.

There is absolutely no reason or evidence to take them out of order given. None.

You presented NO evidence or grammatical demands to do so.

[MHz]

What is with your number counts equal greater truth? God does not mean it if only stated once? Yeeesh.
Two verses give you the location in sequence of events. So what's with the once statement?

Are you sure you're not Jewish? I've chatted with a few that don't accept Christ but they can understand what I'm talking about. You haven't understood anything, no matter how plain the scripture is, one day in Scripture is more than a year. Should I start posting using the Wycliff translation?

Ge:3
15Y
schal sette enemytees bitwixe thee and the womman,
and bitwixe thi seed and hir seed;
sche schal breke thin heed,
and thou schalt sette aspies to hir heele.

[CoreIssue]

Two verses give you the location in sequence of events. So what's with the once statement?
Really? Placing something once between two events does not give exact location as well?
Are you sure you're not Jewish?
Nope. Not Jewish at all.
I've chatted with a few that don't accept Christ but they can understand what I'm talking about.
I do understand what you are saying. I have heard many forms of non grammatical readings of the Bible over the years.

Because I understand it is why I reject it so firmly.
You haven't understood anything, no matter how plain the scripture is, one day in Scripture is more than a year. Should I start posting using the Wycliff translation?
And because I understand you that is why I know you are not even trying to see anything but your doctrine. And why I know you grammatical skills are lacking.

And sorry, but someone who so readily violates grammar and rules of language should not be talking about someone else not understanding plainly stated scripture. That requires abiding by rules of grammar and language.

Let us just go with this day declaration you made here.

A Hebrew week of years is a long known and understood concept. It meant and means 7 years as a unit. A single unbroken unit. As in the 70 Weeks of Daniel is 490 years.


Hebrew
Strong's Number: 03117 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/browse.cgi?number=3117&version=kjv) Original WordWord Origin~wyfrom an unused root meaning to be hotTransliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03117&version=kjv#Legend) EntryYowmTWOT - 852Phonetic SpellingParts of Speechyome http://bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=3117h) Noun Masculine Definition
day, time, year
day (as opposed to night)
day (24 hour period)
as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1
as a division of time 1b
a working day, a day's journey
days, lifetime (pl.)
time, period (general)
year
temporal references
today
yesterday
tomorrow

Strong's Number: 2250 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/browse.cgi?number=2250&version=kjv) Original WordWord OriginhJmevrafrom (with (5610 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5610&version=kjv)) implied) of a derivative of hemai (to sit, akin to the base of (1476 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1476&version=kjv))) meaning tame, i.e. gentleTransliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2250&version=kjv#Legend) EntryHemera2:943,309Phonetic SpellingParts of Speechhay-mer'-ah http://bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=2250g) Noun Feminine Definition
the day, used of the natural day, or the interval between sunrise and sunset, as distinguished from and contrasted with the night
in the daytime
metaph., "the day" is regarded as the time for abstaining from indulgence, vice, crime, because acts of the sort are perpetrated at night and in darkness
of the civil day, or the space of twenty four hours (thus including the night)
Eastern usage of this term differs from our western usage. Any part of a day is counted as a whole day, hence the expression "three days and three nights" does not mean literally three whole days, but at least one whole day plus part of two other days.
of the last day of this present age, the day Christ will return from heaven, raise the dead, hold the final judgment, and perfect his kingdom
used of time in general, i.e. the days of his life.
And there are other forms of the word day that single meanings.
For non singular meanings context and usage determines if part of a day, a full 24 hours, a life span, a year or any specialized time period from a couple of days to millions or more years.

DOTL has a very specific defined time period. Rapture until the end of time.

Eternity is the Day of God. Before the Rapture are the Ages.

To take statements out of given order and presentation demands solid grammatical reasons. You do not do that. You just cut and paste in the order you want with neither grammatical or contextual demand.

You cannot give me one grammatical or contextual demand reason for stripping the 42 months out of the 7th Trumpet. Not one because there is none.

[MHz]

Core,
"A single unbroken unit. As in the 70 Weeks of Daniel is 490 years."

In my deluded world that would end about the time Stephen was killed, 70 weeks of years in one continueous flow. That still leaves justification to the time unfolding for the trib as I have stated, It also removes any justification you have for setting a space of 7 years for the trib because it is from the 70 weeks that you base the 7 years on.

You even put yourself as being gathered before those who are said to be the firstfruits. If you can't see any error in just that one point how many other things have gotten past you. You exhault yourself to a place of importance that cannot be supported by any Scripture. Christ owns all of mankind, you are not Jewish therefore you are gathered after the firstfruits.

[CoreIssue]

Hey MHz,
"A single unbroken unit. As in the 70 Weeks of Daniel is 490 years."

In my deluded world that would end about the time Stephen was killed, 70 weeks of years in one continueous flow. That still leaves justification to the time unfolding for the trib as I have stated, It also removes any justification you have for setting a space of 7 years for the trib because it is from the 70 weeks that you base the 7 years on.
Sigh, you don't get it.

Each Week is a Unit as stated by Daniel. In total there are 70 Units equaling a total of 490 years.. 69 are done.

You break a Unit. I do not.

And the point actually was a Day does not demand 24 hours.

And no. There is no justfication in how you deal with the 40 Weeks. You violate grammar and word meaning to move the cutting off of Christ from the end of the 69th Week to the Mid of the 70th. After does not allow that so you simply redefine after.

And violate the meanings of the two words for prince by trying to force them both to mean Christ, when they very word meanings reject that.

You keep doing those things and wonder why your are rejected so firmly. That puzzles me.
You even put yourself as being gathered before those who are said to be the firstfruits.

And the old gathered means Rapture in all usages argument. It does not.

The Rapture is indeed a gathering. The Gathering at the Second Coming is indeed a gather but not the same kind of gathering.

And gain you just dance right by the 24 gathered, glorified and rewarded Elders sitting at the First Seal. Compounded even worse when you see the First Seal as before Christ's death.

Gathered, glorfied and rewarded before the blood price was even pain.

So many problems with your doctrine.
If you can't see any error in just that one point how many other things have gotten past you.
Actually, you need to answer that question since you disregard the 24 Elders, Rev 3:10 and so much more that says the Church is not there in the Trib.

You exhault yourself to a place of importance that cannot be supported by any Scripture.
Sure it can. Read the Charts. Plenty of scripture there.

Read about the 24 Elders at the First Seal. Read Rev 3:10. But read them grammatically and not according to your doctrine.

You are the one avoiding clear cut verses that deny you. Just go past them and refuse to deal with them. Take the position that if you can post more verses than are presented against you the weight of your out of context and false intepretations applied to them out nullify the plain verses posted. They don't.

You cannot create your own rules of grammar and language. Nope.


Christ owns all of mankind, you are not Jewish therefore you are gathered after the firstfruits.

False. And again you just skip over Rev 3:10 and the 24 Elders sitting there. Just disregard and they don't count it seems.

[CoreIssue]

With all of that said, returning to the opening post, the Bible states Day of the Lord has a beginning and has an end.

Then comes the Day of God.

Yes, the messes up some of your doctrines. But that IS what the Bible says.

[MHz]

Each Week is a Unit as stated by Daniel. In total there are 70 Units equaling a total of 490 years.. 69 are done.

You break a Unit. I do not.

You broke the 70.

[CoreIssue]

You broke the 70.

Really? How did I do that? In the terms of Weeks the 70th follows the 69th.

Like 11th grade follows 10th even though there is a summer inbetween? Right?

A Week has 7 consecutive days/years. Any addition of days/years within the Week breaks the Unity of the Week. You now have more than 7 days in the Week.

No. I follow the given data.

69th Week - Christ dies after/immediately/upon close of the 69th Week. You adding 3.5 years destroys the meaning of after.

70th Week is still a full future 7 years.

The DOTL begins with the Pre-Trib Rapture. The events of the Trib are included in OT prophecy as DOTL And concludes when the Day of God begins.

Blows your doctrine right out of the water.

[MHz]

Really? How did I do that? In the terms of Weeks the 70th follows the 69th.

Like 11th grade follows 10th even though there is a summer inbetween? Right?

A Week has 7 consecutive days/years. Any addition of days/years within the Week breaks the Unity of the Week. You now have more than 7 days in the Week.

No. I follow the given data.

69th Week - Christ dies after/immediately/upon close of the 69th Week. You adding 3.5 years destroys the meaning of after.

70th Week is still a full future 7 years.

The DOTL begins with the Pre-Trib Rapture. The events of the Trib are included in OT prophecy as DOTL And concludes when the Day of God begins.

Blows your doctrine right out of the water.

How much of a break was there between the first two (7 & 69), answer there wasn't any.
A full 7 years, this part is 1 month longer than 3 1/2 years;
Da:12:11:
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away,
and the abomination that maketh desolate set up,
there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Do you really believe Satan's wrath and God's wrath can co-exixt in the same space and time, it would seemtome that the latter trumps the former;
Re:12:12:
Therefore rejoice,
ye heavens,
and ye that dwell in them.
Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea!
for the devil is come down unto you,
having great wrath,
because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Re:14:10:
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God,
which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation;
and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels,
and in the presence of the Lamb:

Re:15:1:
And I saw another sign in heaven,
great and marvellous,
seven angels having the seven last plagues;
for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

The last verse above explains why I see TDOTL as starting then, the book of Zephaniah is quite clear about what 'that day' is about, for it to start any sooner the trib wouoldn't even be able to happen, evil things are done away with. It is a contridiction of terms to say both wraths can be in the same place and time.

[CoreIssue]

How much of a break was there between the first two (7 & 69), answer there wasn't any.
A full 7 years, this part is 1 month longer than 3 1/2 years;
Da:12:11:
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away,
and the abomination that maketh desolate set up,
there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
This extends beyond the Trib.

The Trib ends at the Second Coming. Christ returns at the Second Coming. He assigns the Jews to the rightful tribes and the MK work begins.

Part is hunting down the remaining ones with the Mark. Part is the cleansing and expansion of the Temple.

This says that 30 days after Christ's return is when the AoD will be pulled down and out of the Temple.

It is after the 70th Week of Daniel. In full agreement with the 7 years of Revelation.

You also see in Daniel an even later date, timed from Mid Trib, where the Temple is rededicated.

Do you really believe Satan's wrath and God's wrath can co-exixt in the same space and time, it would seemtome that the latter trumps the former;

Of course it can, when God's wrath uses Satan's wrath as a tool for his purposes.
Re:12:12:
Therefore rejoice,
ye heavens,
and ye that dwell in them.
Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea!
for the devil is come down unto you,
having great wrath,
because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

5th Trumpet, First Woe, Day 1,261.

Since Satan's 42 months begin in 7th Trumpet, 3rd Woe, all 3 Woes must occur quickly together and they are in the 5-7th Trumpets, the timing is most assuredly locked to day 1,261.

You cannot construct any other time table placing these issues at Mid, days 1,260&1 that start a 42 month run with the Two Witnesses and Israels 42 months of peace prior to Satan's 42 months.

And you don't. You keep trying to move 42 months into ancient history, put 42 months futhre and then overlap events into the future 42 that cannot coexist.

I have asked before for a simple time line and gave you one. You refuse and or say it is impossible to do.

I ask again for one.

1st Seal------42 months-------7th Seal/Trumpets------42months/Bowls-----7th Bowl/Second Coming

What is yours?
Re:14:10:
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God,
which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation;
and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels,
and in the presence of the Lamb:
Part of an overview with this part looking to the Second Coming. Following this it falls back in time sequence, begins the Bowls, culminating in the 7th Bowl, which again, is the fall of the capital of Mystery Babylon, Rome.

You cannot move the Bowls outside the Trib and after the Second Coming. Just does not work in any way or fashion.
Re:15:1:
And I saw another sign in heaven,
great and marvellous,
seven angels having the seven last plagues;
for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Yep. Bowls follow Trumpets. Just as stated. Rome is destroyed in the 7th Bowl
The last verse above explains why I see TDOTL as starting then, the book of Zephaniah is quite clear about what 'that day' is about, for it to start any sooner the trib wouoldn't even be able to happen, evil things are done away with. It is a contridiction of terms to say both wraths can be in the same place and time.
No.

The DOTL in more than the Second Coming. A lot more.

I laid out all the verse that say DOTL as a topic. You are disregarding all the ones that do not fit you doctrine.

[MHz]

Hi Core,
This extends beyond the Trib.

I was under the impression that the 7 year trib had the abomination within the 7 years.

M't:24:15: When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

M't:24:21: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
M't:24:22: And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Are you saying there is 3 1/2 years between these verses;

2Th:2:3:
Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;
2Th:2:4:
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,
or that is worshipped;
so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
shewing himself that he is God.

2Th:2:8:
And then shall that Wicked be revealed,
whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth,
and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


The Trib ends at the Second Coming. Christ returns at the Second Coming. He assigns the Jews to the rightful tribes and the MK work begins.

While these verses pretty much says Christ has claimed the Earth as his;

Re:11:15:
And the seventh angel sounded;
and there were great voices in heaven,
saying,
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord,
and of his Christ;
and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Re:11:16:
And the four and twenty elders,
which sat before God on their seats,
fell upon their faces,
and worshipped God,
Re:11:17:
Saying,
We give thee thanks,
O Lord God Almighty,
which art,
and wast,
and art to come;
because thou hast taken to thee thy great power,
and hast reigned.
Re:11:18:
And the nations were angry,
and thy wrath is come,
and the time of the dead,
that they should be judged,
and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets,
and to the saints,
and them that fear thy name,
small and great;
and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Re:11:19:
And the temple of God was opened in heaven,
and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament:
and there were lightnings,
and voices,
and thunderings,
and an earthquake,
and great hail.

Don't you have this as just the start of the Beast's 42 months?


Part is hunting down the remaining ones with the Mark. Part is the cleansing and expansion of the Temple.
Speedy means what, 30 days;

Zep:1:15:
That day is a day of wrath,
a day of trouble and distress,
a day of wasteness and desolation,
a day of darkness and gloominess,
a day of clouds and thick darkness,
Zep:1:16:
A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities,
and against the high towers.
Zep:1:17:
And I will bring distress upon men,
that they shall walk like blind men,
because they have sinned against the LORD:
and their blood shall be poured out as dust,
and their flesh as the dung.
Zep:1:18:
Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath;
but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy:
for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

After the above comes these verses;

Eze:39:7:
So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel;
and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more:
and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD,
the Holy One in Israel.
Eze:39:8:
Behold,
it is come,
and it is done,
saith the Lord GOD;
this is the day whereof I have spoken.
Eze:39:9:
And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth,
and shall set on fire and burn the weapons,
both the shields and the bucklers,
the bows and the arrows,
and the handstaves,
and the spears,
and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

Do you see the above and below verses overlapping or is one completed and then the next is begun;

Eze:39:12:
And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them,
that they may cleanse the land.
Eze:39:13:
Yea,
all the people of the land shall bury them;
and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified,
saith the Lord GOD.
Eze:39:14:
And they shall sever out men of continual employment,
passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth,
to cleanse it:
after the end of seven months shall they search.

At the end of this seven months they then go through the rest of the world to mark and collect these bones, how long will that take?


This says that 30 days after Christ's return is when the AoD will be pulled down and out of the Temple.
The verse from Daniel 12 says 1290 days untill it is setup;

Da:12:11:
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away,
and the abomination that maketh desolate set up,
there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

It is after the 70th Week of Daniel. In full agreement with the 7 years of Revelation.

I know you use Daniel 9 as a base for seven years, in Revelations why do you not see all the 3 1/2 year timelines give as ending about the same time rather you see one starting and then ending, then the next starting and then ending. Since there are three references to this amount of time then two have to run together.

You also see in Daniel an even later date, timed from Mid Trib, where the Temple is rededicated.
Which one are you referencing?

Of course it can, when God's wrath uses Satan's wrath as a tool for his purposes.

1Jo:3:8:
He that committeth sin is of the devil;
for the devil sinneth from the beginning.
For this purpose the Son of God was manifested,
that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Part of what Satan does is try to destroy the woman that is protected from the dragon, doesn't really seem to fit in with doing anything 'for' God, it seems quite clear he is in opposition to God. A really good indication of this fact is where he finally ends up, the Lake of Fire where torment is never-ending.

5th Trumpet, First Woe, Day 1,261.

Since Satan's 42 months begin in 7th Trumpet, 3rd Woe, all 3 Woes must occur quickly together and they are in the 5-7th Trumpets, the timing is most assuredly locked to day 1,261.
This is one of the things I fail to believe, this verse says Satan has be be before the man of sin, you have the false prophet operating for a full 3 1/2 years before Satan;
2Th:2:8:
And then shall that Wicked be revealed,
whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth,
and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th:2:9:
Even him,
whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


You cannot construct any other time table placing these issues at Mid, days 1,260&1 that start a 42 month run with the Two Witnesses and Israels 42 months of peace prior to Satan's 42 months.

And you don't. You keep trying to move 42 months into ancient history, put 42 months futhre and then overlap events into the future 42 that cannot coexist.
The two witnesses are killed and resurrected before the end of the second woe;
Re:11:11:
And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them,
and they stood upon their feet;
and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Re:11:12:
And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them,
Come up hither.
And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud;
and their enemies beheld them.
Re:11:13:
And the same hour was there a great earthquake,
and the tenth part of the city fell,
and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand:
and the remnant were affrighted,
and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Re:11:14:
The second woe is past;
and,
behold,
the third woe cometh quickly.

This occurs during a time of peace?

Re:11:5:
And if any man will hurt them,
fire proceedeth out of their mouth,
and devoureth their enemies:
and if any man will hurt them,
he must in this manner be killed.
Re:11:6:
These have power to shut heaven,
that it rain not in the days of their prophecy:
and have power over waters to turn them to blood,
and to smite the earth with all plagues,
as often as they will.
Re:11:7:
And when they shall have finished their testimony,
the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them,
and shall overcome them,
and kill them.


I have asked before for a simple time line and gave you one. You refuse and or say it is impossible to do.

I ask again for one.

1st Seal------42 months-------7th Seal/Trumpets------42months/Bowls-----7th Bowl/Second Coming

What is yours?

5th trump, day 1 of tribulation, 5 months of this;
Re:9:3:
And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth:
and unto them was given power,
as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Re:9:4:
And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth,
neither any green thing,
neither any tree;
but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
Re:9:5:
And to them it was given that they should not kill them,
but that they should be tormented five months:
and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion,
when he striketh a man.
Re:9:6:
And in those days shall men seek death,
and shall not find it;
and shall desire to die,
and death shall flee from them.

6th trump, day 151 to 1260th day;

Re:9:17:
And thus I saw the horses in the vision,
and them that sat on them,
having breastplates of fire,
and of jacinth,
and brimstone:
and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions;
and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
Re:9:18:
By these three was the third part of men killed,
by the fire,
and by the smoke,
and by the brimstone,
which issued out of their mouths.
Re:9:19:
For their power is in their mouth,
and in their tails:
for their tails were like unto serpents,
and had heads,
and with them they do hurt.
Re:9:20:
And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands,
that they should not worship devils,
and idols of gold,
and silver,
and brass,
and stone,
and of wood:
which neither can see,
nor hear,
nor walk:
Re:9:21:
Neither repented they of their murders,
nor of their sorceries,
nor of their fornication,
nor of their thefts.

All the above occurs duriny what you call a time of peace, certainly doesn't appear that way to me.

7th trump the last half of that day that marks the 3 1/2 days the witness are dead, basically the 4th day after they are killed. This half day is called 'great tribulation' or TDOTL.

Anything before the 5th trump are birth-pangs. Tribulation is the 3 woes, Satan is the first two woes, Christ is the 3rd woe. Remember all three woes are for the 'inhabitants of the Earth'. I don't believe it matters to Satan who he kills as long as he can get some to worship him. What he has been able to do is destroyed at Christ's return, the 4th day after the witnesses are killed.


Part of an overview with this part looking to the Second Coming. Following this it falls back in time sequence, begins the Bowls, culminating in the 7th Bowl, which again, is the fall of the capital of Mystery Babylon, Rome.

You cannot move the Bowls outside the Trib and after the Second Coming. Just does not work in any way or fashion.

Yep. Bowls follow Trumpets. Just as stated. Rome is destroyed in the 7th Bowl[QUOTE]

I don't think you can see Rome from Jerusalem.



[QUOTE]The DOTL in more than the Second Coming. A lot more.

I laid out all the verse that say DOTL as a topic. You are disregarding all the ones that do not fit you doctrine.

True but lets try to say with what occurs on the first day of His return;

Re:18:8:
Therefore shall her plagues come in one day,
death,
and mourning,
and famine;
and she shall be utterly burned with fire:
for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

[CoreIssue]

Hi Core,

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreIssue
This extends beyond the Trib.


I was under the impression that the 7 year trib had the abomination within the 7 years.

Hey MHz,
The AC is not the Abomination talked about. His statue is. And it is set up at Mid.

Daniel says set up at Mid Trib and Matthew confirms that timing.

This is when Woman flees because the AC has invaded Israel.

Notice it says the Great Tribulation Begins then. The Gentiles have been in Tribulation for 3.5 years. This is when the Two die, and per Malachi, the curse falls on Israel for rejecting their messag.

Are you saying there is 3 1/2 years between these verses;

2Th:2:3:
Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;
2Th:2:4:
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,
or that is worshipped;
so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
shewing himself that he is God.

2Th:2:8:
And then shall that Wicked be revealed,
whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth,
and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
No.

It says Christ will return for the Church, which is the subject established in chapter 1, in the Rapture. At that time the Restrainer, being the Holy Spirit, will removed from the earth as indwelling saints and restraining evil.

The Treaty of the 70th Week, revealing of the AC, Rapture, removal of the Restrainer, appearance of the Two Witnesses, First Seal and beginning of the Trib all happen at the same time.

3.5 years later, the AC will enter the Temple, sit on the alter and declare himself god.

He comes to Jerusalem with the AoD statue already built, with a following already believing he is god and with the FP.

His power and followership increase at Mid. They do not begin at Mid.

His wars are the wars of the Seals. He is the first seal and the one who does the Treaty beginning the 70th Week of Daniel.


Quote:
The Trib ends at the Second Coming. Christ returns at the Second Coming. He assigns the Jews to the rightful tribes and the MK work begins.

While these verses pretty much says Christ has claimed the Earth as his;

Re:11:15:
And the seventh angel sounded;
and there were great voices in heaven,
saying,
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord,
and of his Christ;
and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Re:11:16:
And the four and twenty elders,
which sat before God on their seats,
fell upon their faces,
and worshipped God,
Re:11:17:
Saying,
We give thee thanks,
O Lord God Almighty,
which art,
and wast,
and art to come;
because thou hast taken to thee thy great power,
and hast reigned.
Re:11:18:
And the nations were angry,
and thy wrath is come,
and the time of the dead,
that they should be judged,
and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets,
and to the saints,
and them that fear thy name,
small and great;
and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Re:11:19:
And the temple of God was opened in heaven,
and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament:
and there were lightnings,
and voices,
and thunderings,
and an earthquake,
and great hail.

Don't you have this as just the start of the Beast's 42 months?


There is a difference between a royal decree of taking possession and physically taking possession.

It does not say Christ returns then. It says the earth is his, then the Bowls come, with Rome destroyed in the 7th Bowl, with the end of the Wedding Supper and Second coming following immediately.

Exactly 7 years to the day.

This is said in Heaven. It says the wrath has come, meaning from Heaven to the earth.
The Trumpets announce. The three Woes are in, but not are fully, the last three Trumpets.
There is fully 42 months after the 7th Trumpet. And 42 months, the Two Witnesses and the time of peace on Israel before the AC breaks the Treaty Mid Treaty, as stated by Daniel.
That is 7 years.
Now continue past Revelation 11. The next issues are the 7 Bowls of God's wrath.
It says the armies are gathered in wrath. That in the 6th Bowl the evil spirits in the AC, FP and dragon come out of them and gather the armies to Armageddon to fight Christ when he comes.
The 7th Bowl destroys Rome.
And at the Second Coming the AC armies have already been gathered against him. And they are immediately destroyed.
No way to put the Bowls after the Second Coming. No way to align the Bowls as happening in parallel with the Seals or Trumpets.

Part is hunting down the remaining ones with the Mark. Part is the cleansing and expansion of the Temple.
Speedy means what, 30 days;

In a world where the survivors of the army are running on foot and 2/3 of the world's population has died, hunting them down is not a big deal.
They have no where to hide that God and his army cannot know where to look.

Zep is describing events that happen throughout the Trib and finalize at the Second Coming.

Eze:39:7-8 has destruction and conversion at the Second Coming with 9 the aftermath into the MK.

Do you see the above and below verses overlapping or is one completed and then the next is begun;
As just stated.

At the end of this seven months they then go through the rest of the world to mark and collect these bones, how long will that take?
It doesn't say that. You are misreading the Old English of the KJV

12 " 'For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them in order to cleanse the land. 13 All the people of the land will bury them, and the day I am glorified will be a memorable day for them, declares the Sovereign LORD. 14 " 'Men will be regularly employed to cleanse the land. Some will go throughout the land and, in addition to them, others will bury those that remain on the ground. At the end of the seven months they will begin their search. 15 As they go through the land and one of them sees a human bone, he will set up a marker beside it until the gravediggers have buried it in the Valley of Hamon Gog. 16 (Also a town called Hamonah [e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ez%2039;&version=31;#fen-NIV-21465e)] will be there.) And so they will cleanse the land.'
It says it is all done in 7 months.

And it is all after the Second Coming and Trib.


This says that 30 days after Christ's return is when the AoD will be pulled down and out of the Temple.
The verse from Daniel 12 says 1290 days untill it is setup;

Da:12:11:
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away,
and the abomination that maketh desolate set up,
there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

No. You are again reading wrong.
It says after it is set up it will be there for 1,290 days. The KJV Is really messing you up.
11 "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.
Now look at the full passage.
11 "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

The AoD is torn down 30 days after the Second Coming and the hunting down of those with the Mark goes on for 75 days from the Second Coming.
This is in answer to Daniel asking what the outcome of the Trib would be. Here he is told.
No. Daniel and Revelation are very clear of the Mid events. And Mid Trib is days 1,260 and 61 of the 7 year Trib.
Very precise timings given. Very precise.
You really need to use something other than the KJV. You are not reading it correctly at all.

It is after the 70th Week of Daniel. In full agreement with the 7 years of Revelation.

I know you use Daniel 9 as a base for seven years, in Revelations why do you not see all the 3 1/2 year timelines give as ending about the same time rather you see one starting and then ending, then the next starting and then ending. Since there are three references to this amount of time then two have to run together.

Absolutely do.
I cannot help it you refuse to read in order.
And it most assuredly says the Trumpets sound AFTER the 7th Seal. And the Bowls are the LAST and COMPLETION of God's wrath. That demands they come after.
It most assuredly says the Two Witnesses have 42 months followed by 42 months of Satan. No overlap. Impossible to overlap. You cannot have them both in the Temple at the same time.
The Two are killed in the 6th Trumpet, containing the 2nd Woe, by the FP. There is a FULL 42 months after this beginning in the 7th Trumpet.
That is 7 full years. You cannot compress it to 3.5 years. That is impossible.
1When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 2And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.

The Trumpets are not even handed out until all the Seals sound and a half hour of silence follows. There is no overlap of Seals and Trumpets.
1I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God's wrath is completed.
There was already wrath before the Bowls were even handed out.
The Bowls compete and are the last of the wrath. That demands the other events have completed, else there was no wrath before for the Bowls to complete.
Remember, when you demand they all happen in parallel, that means the first Seal and First Trumpet happen at the same time as the First Bowl. So that says they cannot be last, but are part of. They cannot complete what has not even begun.
The last of the Seals says God's wrath has come, but in your thinking how could it have come if already in work and nearly finished?
Christ does not come in wrath. The armies are gathered in wrath, in the 7th Bowl. But Christ is stated not to come in wrath, but in justice.

You also see in Daniel an even later date, timed from Mid Trib, where the Temple is rededicated.
Which one are you referencing?

It was, again, Daniel asking about timing from the AoD and stoppage of sacrifices from Mid Trib. This time for when the Temple would open again.
Daniel 8


13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, "How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, and the surrender of the sanctuary and of the host that will be trampled underfoot?"
14 He said to me, "It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated." The Interpretation of the Vision


Mid to Second Coming - 1,260 days
Mid to destruction of AoD - 1,290 days
Mid to MK Temple dedicated - 2,300 days
In Daniel 11, the AC is shown invading Israel.
In 12, Daniel asks how long it will take to fulfill those invastion events. He is told 1,260 days.
That is the Mid invasion until Christ returns. AC gone at the end of 1,260 days.
Then Daniels question changes to what the outcome of the 1,260 days will be.
8 I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, "My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?"
The question shifts from fulfilling the Trib/70th Week to what will it will result in.
Now he is told the AoD will stand for 1,290 days and those who survive (the hunt and purification) to day 1,335 will be blessed.
Chapter 12 then is the issue of total fulfillment of the AoD and related issues. That being the Temple completed and functioning again, he is told 2,300 days from Mid.
-------7 year Trib---------/---30 days AoD down
-------7 year Trib---------/-------75 days all with mark dead
-------7 year Trib---------/----------------------1,040 days Temple reopens

Of course it can, when God's wrath uses Satan's wrath as a tool for his purposes.

1Jo:3:8:
He that committeth sin is of the devil;
for the devil sinneth from the beginning.
For this purpose the Son of God was manifested,
that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Part of what Satan does is try to destroy the woman that is protected from the dragon, doesn't really seem to fit in with doing anything 'for' God, it seems quite clear he is in opposition to God. A really good indication of this fact is where he finally ends up, the Lake of Fire where torment is never-ending.

God protects the Woman, doesn't he?
The Seals belong to God. The First Seal is Satan. The 1st Woe/5th Trumpet has God casting Satan down among the people. Daniel tell us God hands over the Trib Saints to Satan. Satan purges 2/3 of Israel. Satan is the choice opposed to God to test and sort Man. Satan is thrown down by God with authority to open the Pit. God allows the Two Witnesses to be killed.
Tool of God.
God does not sin. Nor does Christ eliminate the works of Satan with offers and nice talk in all cases. He uses a sword as well.

5th Trumpet, First Woe, Day 1,261.

Since Satan's 42 months begin in 7th Trumpet, 3rd Woe, all 3 Woes must occur quickly together and they are in the 5-7th Trumpets, the timing is most assuredly locked to day 1,261.
This is one of the things I fail to believe, this verse says Satan has be be before the man of sin, you have the false prophet operating for a full 3 1/2 years before Satan;
2Th:2:8:
And then shall that Wicked be revealed,
whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth,
and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th:2:9:
Even him,
whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


Nope. 2 Thes. is talking about the AC, not Satan.
Again, you are letting the KJV mess you up.
9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing.
The AC work is in agreement and in the ways of Satan. He does not come after Satan arrives.

You cannot construct any other time table placing these issues at Mid, days 1,260&1 that start a 42 month run with the Two Witnesses and Israels 42 months of peace prior to Satan's 42 months.

And you don't. You keep trying to move 42 months into ancient history, put 42 months futhre and then overlap events into the future 42 that cannot coexist.
The two witnesses are killed and resurrected before the end of the second woe;
Re:11:11:
And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them,
and they stood upon their feet;
and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Re:11:12:
And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them,
Come up hither.
And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud;
and their enemies beheld them.
Re:11:13:
And the same hour was there a great earthquake,
and the tenth part of the city fell,
and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand:
and the remnant were affrighted,
and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Re:11:14:
The second woe is past;
and,
behold,
the third woe cometh quickly.

This occurs during a time of peace?

No.
The time of peace is over. This is day 1,261. The AC has invaded, slaughtering many, Satan is cast down, the FP demon has come out of the Pit onto the FP and Israel begins the Great Trib.
The Two Witnesses 42 months ended the day before. Another good reason you cannot have them in the Temple at the same time.
The 42 months of Satan have begun. 42 + 42 is 7 years.
I have asked before for a simple time line and gave you one. You refuse and or say it is impossible to do.

I ask again for one.

1st Seal------42 months-------7th Seal/Trumpets------42months/Bowls-----7th Bowl/Second Coming

What is yours?
All the above occurs duriny what you call a time of peace, certainly doesn't appear that way to me.
Nope. None of the Trumpets are during a time of peace. And you do not have 42 months following the 7th Trumpet. And no sign of any Seals.

7th trump the last half of that day that marks the 3 1/2 days the witness are dead, basically the 4th day after they are killed. This half day is called 'great tribulation' or TDOTL.
The Great Trib is 3.5 years long.

Anything before the 5th trump are birth-pangs. Tribulation is the 3 woes, Satan is the first two woes, Christ is the 3rd woe. Remember all three woes are for the 'inhabitants of the Earth'. I don't believe it matters to Satan who he kills as long as he can get some to worship him. What he has been able to do is destroyed at Christ's return, the 4th day after the witnesses are killed.
Is this a modified form of Historicism, Amil or Post-Mil?

[quote]Part of an overview with this part looking to the Second Coming. Following this it falls back in time sequence, begins the Bowls, culminating in the 7th Bowl, which again, is the fall of the capital of Mystery Babylon, Rome.

You cannot move the Bowls outside the Trib and after the Second Coming. Just does not work in any way or fashion.

Yep. Bowls follow Trumpets. Just as stated. Rome is destroyed in the 7th Bowl[quote]

I don't think you can see Rome from Jerusalem.
Show me where Jerusalem is ever called Mystery Bablon.

John clearly defines Mystery Babylon in Revelation. The city of 7 hills (Rome) with the 7 kings coming from Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome.

Daniels states 2 kings from Babylon, 2 kings from Medo-Persia, one from Greece and 2 kings from Rome. That is 7.

Rome breaks down into 10, which happened in history at the collapse of the Roman Empire.

The Ten Toes reform the AC Empire. The EU holds the lands the Ten collapsed into. The AC rises from the Ten Toes.

Jerusalem and Israel are never part of any of this.

Show me where Jerusalem is ever called Mystery Babylon. You cannot.

But I have shown you where Rome is, many times.


Quote:
The DOTL in more than the Second Coming. A lot more.

I laid out all the verse that say DOTL as a topic. You are disregarding all the ones that do not fit you doctrine.

True but lets try to say with what occurs on the first day of His return;

Re:18:8:
Therefore shall her plagues come in one day,
death,
and mourning,
and famine;
and she shall be utterly burned with fire:
for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

That is Second Coming. Not Rapture.

The Trib is before that and most assuredly DOTL.

[MHz]

Hi Core,
Just a quick note while I cover the rest of your most interesting post.

When has Rome ever claimed this;
Re:18:7:
How much she hath glorified herself,
and lived deliciously,
so much torment and sorrow give her:
for she saith in her heart,
I sit a queen,
and am no widow,
and shall see no sorrow.

[CoreIssue]

Hi Core,
Just a quick note while I cover the rest of your most interesting post.

When has Rome ever claimed this;
Re:18:7:
How much she hath glorified herself,
and lived deliciously,
so much torment and sorrow give her:
for she saith in her heart,
I sit a queen,
and am no widow,
and shall see no sorrow.
We need context here.
Revelation
4The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. 5This title was written on her forehead:
MYSTERY
BABYLON THE GREAT
THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES
AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.
Purple and Scarlet. The royal and priestly colors of Rome. Both Pagan and Catholic.

Spilled the blood of those who bore the testimony of Christ.

That most assuredly is Rome, not Israel or Jerusalem.

Rome controlled Jerusalem from the time of Christ through the 70AD dismanteling. Rome butchered Christians under the Emporers. Rome did the Inquisition.

There is no room for Jerusalem in either of these descriptive points.

Don't go back to the OT. This says those killed were of Christ.

Right there Rome is declared Mystery Babylon.

When I saw her, I was greatly astonished. 7Then the angel said to me: "Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns. 8The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.

7 heads and 10 horns corresponds to the 7 kings of the 5 Empires of the statue. And the 10 horns to the Ten Toes Rome collapsed into and out of which the AC and his empire will rise.

Again, not Jerusalem.
9"This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while. 11The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.
City on 7 Hills is Rome. It is called that.

And 7 kings. Back to the statue, with its 7 kings.

The AC is the Beast who was, is not and will be is Alexander the Great. More correctly his demon.

And the king to come is from the Ten Toes as the restored Roman Empire, the EU in its current form.
15Then the angel said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages. 16The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled. 18The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth."
They will destroy the Roman Catholic Church and revert it to the a Pagan form worshipping the AC.

Prostitute, as in Apostate RCC.
4Then I heard another voice from heaven say:
"Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
5for her sins are piled up to heaven,
and God has remembered her crimes.
6Give back to her as she has given;
pay her back double for what she has done.
Mix her a double portion from her own cup.
7Give her as much torture and grief
as the glory and luxury she gave herself.
In her heart she boasts,
'I sit as queen; I am not a widow,
and I will never mourn.'
8Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her:
death, mourning and famine.
She will be consumed by fire,
for mighty is the Lord God who judges her.
The death and destruction Rome committed on the Church will be visited back on Rome.
" 'Woe! Woe, O great city,
dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet,
and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls!

Again, the colors of Rome and the RCC.
21Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said:
"With such violence
the great city of Babylon will be thrown down,
never to be found again.

Finally, this most assuredly eliminates Jerusalem. For it is never totally destroyed and will be the City and Throne of Christ in the MK.

Rome. No way Jerusalem.

[MHz]

Well at least you have shown blindness can also be present in a Christian, all you had to do was explain about Rome having been said she would never be a widow. Since this is our last communication these are the Jews you support

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6657600254881054584&q=where+is+Israel

See you after the trib

[CoreIssue]

Well at least you have shown blindness can also be present in a Christian, all you had to do was explain about Rome having been said she would never be a widow. Since this is our last communication these are the Jews you support

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6657600254881054584&q=where+is+Israel

See you after the trib
Amazing. You hand pick what you feel you can mold to support you and throw the rest away.

I more than amply showed Rome is Mystery Babylon. Not Jerusalem.

Rome is lying to herself in that statement. She believes she will always find suiters to be with her.

But she ends up destroyed. Never to be again.

[MHz]

We need context here.
Purple and Scarlet. The royal and priestly colors of Rome. Both Pagan and Catholic.

You really should let Scripture give you the information about what other Scripture says;

Jer:4:30: And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life.

Ex:26:1:
Moreover thou shalt make the tabernacle with ten curtains of fine twined linen,
and blue,
and purple,
and scarlet:
with cherubims of cunning work shalt thou make them.

Ex:26:31:
And thou shalt make a vail of blue,
and purple,
and scarlet,
and fine twined linen of cunning work:
with cherubims shall it be made:

Ex:26:36:
And thou shalt make an hanging for the door of the tent,
of blue,
and purple,
and scarlet,
and fine twined linen,
wrought with needlework.

Ex:27:16:
And for the gate of the court shall be an hanging of twenty cubits,
of blue,
and purple,
and scarlet,
and fine twined linen,
wrought with needlework:
and their pillars shall be four,
and their sockets four.

Ex:28:5:
And they shall take gold,
and blue,
and purple,
and scarlet,
and fine linen.

Ex:28:6:
And they shall make the ephod of gold,
of blue,
and of purple,
of scarlet,
and fine twined linen,
with cunning work.

Ex:28:8:
And the curious girdle of the ephod,
which is upon it,
shall be of the same,
according to the work thereof;
even of gold,
of blue,
and purple,
and scarlet,
and fine twined linen.

Ex:28:15:
And thou shalt make the breastplate of judgment with cunning work;
after the work of the ephod thou shalt make it;
of gold,
of blue,
and of purple,
and of scarlet,
and of fine twined linen,
shalt thou make it.

Ex:28:33:
And beneath upon the hem of it thou shalt make pomegranates of blue,
and of purple,
and of scarlet,
round about the hem thereof;
and bells of gold between them round about:

Ex:35:6:
And blue,
and purple,
and scarlet,
and fine linen,
and goats' hair,

Ex:35:23:
And every man,
with whom was found blue,
and purple,
and scarlet,
and fine linen,
and goats' hair,
and red skins of rams,
and badgers' skins,
brought them.

Ex:35:25:
And all the women that were wise hearted did spin with their hands,
and brought that which they had spun,
both of blue,
and of purple,
and of scarlet,
and of fine linen.

Ex:35:35:
Them hath he filled with wisdom of heart,
to work all manner of work,
of the engraver,
and of the cunning workman,
and of the embroiderer,
in blue,
and in purple,
in scarlet,
and in fine linen,
and of the weaver,
even of them that do any work,
and of those that devise cunning work.

Ex:36:8:
And every wise hearted man among them that wrought the work of the tabernacle made ten curtains of fine twined linen,
and blue,
and purple,
and scarlet:
with cherubims of cunning work made he them.

Ex:36:35:
And he made a vail of blue,
and purple,
and scarlet,
and fine twined linen:
with cherubims made he it of cunning work.

Ex:36:37:
And he made an hanging for the tabernacle door of blue,
and purple,
and scarlet,
and fine twined linen,
of needlework;

Ex:38:18:
And the hanging for the gate of the court was needlework,
of blue,
and purple,
and scarlet,
and fine twined linen:
and twenty cubits was the length,
and the height in the breadth was five cubits,
answerable to the hangings of the court.

Ex:38:23:
And with him was Aholiab,
son of Ahisamach,
of the tribe of Dan, an engraver,
and a cunning workman,
and an embroiderer in blue,
and in purple,
and in scarlet,
and fine linen.

Ex:39:1:
And of the blue,
and purple,
and scarlet,
they made cloths of service,
to do service in the holy place,
and made the holy garments for Aaron;
as the LORD commanded Moses.

Ex:39:2:
And he made the ephod of gold,
blue,
and purple,
and scarlet,
and fine twined linen.
Ex:39:3:
And they did beat the gold into thin plates,
and cut it into wires,
to work it in the blue,
and in the purple,
and in the scarlet,
and in the fine linen,
with cunning work.
Ex:39:5:
And the curious girdle of his ephod,
that was upon it,
was of the same,
according to the work thereof;
of gold,
blue,
and purple,
and scarlet,
and fine twined linen;
as the LORD commanded Moses.

Ex:39:8:
And he made the breastplate of cunning work,
like the work of the ephod;
of gold,
blue,
and purple,
and scarlet,
and fine twined linen.

Ex:39:24:
And they made upon the hems of the robe pomegranates of blue,
and purple,
and scarlet,
and twined linen.

Ex:39:29:
And a girdle of fine twined linen,
and blue,
and purple,
and scarlet,
of needlework;
as the LORD commanded Moses.

Spilled the blood of those who bore the testimony of Christ.

That most assuredly is Rome, not Israel or Jerusalem.

Again you fail to see that all prophets since Moses had something to say about Christ, that is testimony;

Lu:24:27:
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets,
he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

M'r:1:2:
As it is written in the prophets,
Behold,
I send my messenger before thy face,
which shall prepare thy way before thee.

Rome controlled Jerusalem from the time of Christ through the 70AD dismanteling. Rome butchered Christians under the Emporers. Rome did the Inquisition.

There is no room for Jerusalem in either of these descriptive points.

Again staying with Scripture both points do have verses that address them;

M't:23:29:
Woe unto you,
scribes and Pharisees,
hypocrites!
because ye build the tombs of the prophets,
and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
M't:23:30:
And say,
If we had been in the days of our fathers,
we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
M't:23:31:
Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves,
that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

M't:23:34:
Wherefore,
behold,
I send unto you prophets,
and wise men,
and scribes:
and some of them ye shall kill and crucify;
and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues,
and persecute them from city to city:

M't:23:37:
O Jerusalem,
Jerusalem,
thou that killest the prophets,
and stonest them which are sent unto thee,
how often would I have gathered thy children together,
even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings,
and ye would not!

Lu:11:49:
Therefore also said the wisdom of God,
I will send them prophets and apostles,
and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
Lu:11:50:
That the blood of all the prophets,
which was shed from the foundation of the world,
may be required of this generation;

Lu:13:34:
O Jerusalem,
Jerusalem,
which killest the prophets,
and stonest them that are sent unto thee;
how often would I have gathered thy children together,
as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings,
and ye would not!

Ac:3:21:
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things,
which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Ac:3:24:
Yea,
and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after,
as many as have spoken,
have likewise foretold of these days.

Ac:7:52:
Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted?
and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One;
of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

Ro:11:3:
Lord,
they have killed thy prophets,
and digged down thine altars;
and I am left alone,
and they seek my life.

1Th:2:15:
Who both killed the Lord Jesus,
and their own prophets,
and have persecuted us;
and they please not God,
and are contrary to all men:


Don't go back to the OT. This says those killed were of Christ.

As stated before, all prophets since Moses bore testimony of Christ.

Right there Rome is declared Mystery Babylon.



7 heads and 10 horns corresponds to the 7 kings of the 5 Empires of the statue. And the 10 horns to the Ten Toes Rome collapsed into and out of which the AC and his empire will rise.

Again, not Jerusalem.[QUOTE]

[QUOTE]City on 7 Hills is Rome. It is called that.

Scripture that supports this please, there are seven mounts (more properly hills) associated with Jerusalem.

http://askelm.com/prophecy/p000201.htm

But strange as it may seem, the City of Jerusalem as it existed in the time of Christ Jesus was also reckoned to be the "City of Seven Hills." This fact was well recognized in Jewish circles. In the Pirke de-Rabbi Eliezer, an eighth century midrashic narrative (section 10), the writer mentioned without commentary (showing that the understanding was well known and required no defense) that "Jerusalem is situated on seven hills" (recorded in The Book of Legends, edited by Bialik and Ravnitzky, p. 371, paragraph 111). And, so it was. Those "seven hills" are easy to identify. If one starts with the Mount of Olives just to the east of the main City of Jerusalem (but still reckoned to be located within the environs of Jerusalem), there are three summits to that Mount of Olives. The northern summit (hill) is called Scopus [Hill One], the middle summit (hill) was called Nob [Hill Two], the highest point of Olivet itself, and the southern summit (hill) was called in the Holy Scriptures the "Mount of Corruption" or "Mount of Offence" [Hill Three] (II Kings 23:13). On the middle ridge between the Kedron and the Tyropoeon Valleys there was (formerly) in the south "Mount Zion" [Hill Four] (the original "Mount Zion" and not the later southwest hill that was later called by that name), then the "Ophel Mount" [Hill Five] and then to the north of that the "Rock" around which "Fort Antonia" was built [Hill Six]. And finally, there was the southwest hill itself [Hill Seven] that finally became known in the time of Simon the Hasmonean as the new "Mount Zion." This makes "Seven Hills" in all.

The above link also covers other places with seven hills.

And 7 kings. Back to the statue, with its 7 kings.

No bearing on who the woman is, only who she is in league with, and while you say it is the EU Scripture says the men who recieve power from one hour with the Beast come into their kingdoms at that time. This would eliminate any existing country in existance at that time, you can't recieve something you alraedy have;

Re:17:12:
And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings,
which have received no kingdom as yet;
but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

The AC is the Beast who was, is not and will be is Alexander the Great. More correctly his demon.
Again you have no Scripture to show this is Alex and 'his demon' would have existed even before the flood of Noah's time

And the king to come is from the Ten Toes as the restored Roman Empire, the EU in its current form.
Go ahead paint your wisdom into a corner, only time will tell who these are, it could be the 10 most corrupt people in all of the world at the time meeting with the Beast.

They will destroy the Roman Catholic Church and revert it to the a Pagan form worshipping the AC.
I thought you thought they were alraedy a pagan Church?

Prostitute, as in Apostate RCC.
Jer:13:27:
I have seen thine adulteries,
and thy neighings,
the lewdness of thy whoredom,
and thine abominations on the hills in the fields.
Woe unto thee,
O Jerusalem!
wilt thou not be made clean?
when shall it once be?

The death and destruction Rome committed on the Church will be visited back on Rome.[QUOTE]
Most likely, notice how God is calling to His people to come out of her, why would Jews be in Rome at this time?

[QUOTE]Again, the colors of Rome and the RCC.


Finally, this most assuredly eliminates Jerusalem. For it is never totally destroyed and will be the City and Throne of Christ in the MK.

Rome. No way Jerusalem.

La:2:14:
Thy prophets have seen vain and foolish things for thee:
and they have not discovered thine iniquity,
to turn away thy captivity;
but have seen for thee false burdens and causes of banishment.
La:2:15:
All that pass by clap their hands at thee;
they hiss and wag their head at the daughter of Jerusalem,
saying,
Is this the city that men call The perfection of beauty,
The joy of the whole earth?
La:2:16:
All thine enemies have opened their mouth against thee:
they hiss and gnash the teeth:
they say,
We have swallowed her up:
certainly this is the day that we looked for;
we have found,
we have seen it.
La:2:17:
The LORD hath done that which he had devised;
he hath fulfilled his word that he had commanded in the days of old:
he hath thrown down,
and hath not pitied:
and he hath caused thine enemy to rejoice over thee,
he hath set up the horn of thine adversaries.
La:2:18:
Their heart cried unto the Lord,
O wall of the daughter of Zion,
let tears run down like a river day and night:
give thyself no rest;
let not the apple of thine eye cease.
La:2:19:
Arise,
cry out in the night:
in the beginning of the watches pour out thine heart like water before the face of the Lord: lift up thy hands toward him for the life of thy young children,
that faint for hunger in the top of every street.
La:2:20:
Behold,
O LORD,
and consider to whom thou hast done this.
Shall the women eat their fruit,
and children of a span long?
shall the priest and the prophet be slain in the sanctuary of the Lord?
La:2:21:
The young and the old lie on the ground in the streets:
my virgins and my young men are fallen by the sword;
thou hast slain them in the day of thine anger;
thou hast killed,
and not pitied.
La:2:22:
Thou hast called as in a solemn day my terrors round about,
so that in the day of the LORD's anger none escaped nor remained:
those that I have swaddled and brought up hath mine enemy consumed.

Jer:19:1:
Thus saith the LORD,
Go and get a potter's earthen bottle,
and take of the ancients of the people,
and of the ancients of the priests;
Jer:19:2:
And go forth unto the valley of the son of Hinnom,
which is by the entry of the east gate,
and proclaim there the words that I shall tell thee,
Jer:19:3:
And say,
Hear ye the word of the LORD,
O kings of Judah,
and inhabitants of Jerusalem;
Thus saith the LORD of hosts,
the God of Israel;
Behold,
I will bring evil upon this place,
the which whosoever heareth,
his ears shall tingle.
Jer:19:4:
Because they have forsaken me,
and have estranged this place,
and have burned incense in it unto other gods,
whom neither they nor their fathers have known,
nor the kings of Judah,
and have filled this place with the blood of innocents;
Jer:19:5:
They have built also the high places of Baal,
to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal,
which I commanded not,
nor spake it,
neither came it into my mind:
Jer:19:6:
Therefore,
behold,
the days come,
saith the LORD,
that this place shall no more be called Tophet,
nor The valley of the son of Hinnom,
but The valley of slaughter.
Jer:19:7:
And I will make void the counsel of Judah and Jerusalem in this place;
and I will cause them to fall by the sword before their enemies,
and by the hands of them that seek their lives:
and their carcases will I give to be meat for the fowls of the heaven,
and for the beasts of the earth.
Jer:19:8:
And I will make this city desolate,
and an hissing;
every one that passeth thereby shall be astonished and hiss because of all the plagues thereof.
Jer:19:9:
And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters,
and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend in the siege and straitness,
wherewith their enemies,
and they that seek their lives,
shall straiten them.

[CoreIssue]

We need context here.
Purple and Scarlet. The royal and priestly colors of Rome. Both Pagan and Catholic.

You really should let Scripture give you the information about what other Scripture says;
Your verses do not change the fact these are the colors of Rome.

A lot of people and countries used those colors. You are jumping elsewhere to try to make theis Jerusalem and ignoring the plain facts stated in the context and passages we are looking at.

Are you denying these are the colors of Pagan and Catholic Rome?

Spilled the blood of those who bore the testimony of Christ.

That most assuredly is Rome, not Israel or Jerusalem.

Again you fail to see that all prophets since Moses had something to say about Christ, that is testimony;

They did not preach the Gospel of Christ. They did not go around preaching Christ.
They preached Law and obedience to God.

Christ was but a prophetic notion to them.

Again, you leave passage context and jump to other verses to attempt to redefine what is said. And you only quote selected verses, out of context, in Revelation.

You avoid those that make it impossible to be Jerusalem.

Rome controlled Jerusalem from the time of Christ through the 70AD dismanteling. Rome butchered Christians under the Emporers. Rome did the Inquisition.

There is no room for Jerusalem in either of these descriptive points.

Again staying with Scripture both points do have verses that address them;
Again, you depart from the full context of the Revelation passage and construct a false argument that has nothing to do with the context of Revelation.

Don't go back to the OT. This says those killed were of Christ.

As stated before, all prophets since Moses bore testimony of Christ.
False. Not all prophets spoke of Christ. And none went around preaching Christ, ever.

Christ was always prophetic future to them.

Right there Rome is declared Mystery Babylon.
7 heads and 10 horns corresponds to the 7 kings of the 5 Empires of the statue. And the 10 horns to the Ten Toes Rome collapsed into and out of which the AC and his empire will rise.

Again, not Jerusalem.


Quote:
City on 7 Hills is Rome. It is called that.

Scripture that supports this please, there are seven mounts (more properly hills) associated with Jerusalem.
Daniel's Statue shows 7 kings and the Ten Toe kingdoms. It says the AC will rise out of them.

The Beasts of Daniel define the lineage of Mystery Babylon. Bablylon -Medo-Persia-Greece-Rome.

Israel is included in neither.

John is looking back to Daniel. He says 5 kings who were, one is and one will be. 7 kings. Israel not there.

The Ten Toe nations being at the collapse of Rome is historical fact. The EU being the map area of the Ten Toes that will reform the Empire of the AC is fact.
Israel has never been part of that given lineage.

http://askelm.com/prophecy/p000201.htm

But strange as it may seem, the City of Jerusalem as it existed in the time of Christ Jesus was also reckoned to be the "City of Seven Hills." This fact was well recognized in Jewish circles. In the Pirke de-Rabbi Eliezer, an eighth century midrashic narrative (section 10), the writer mentioned without commentary (showing that the understanding was well known and required no defense) that "Jerusalem is situated on seven hills" (recorded in The Book of Legends, edited by Bialik and Ravnitzky, p. 371, paragraph 111). And, so it was. Those "seven hills" are easy to identify. If one starts with the Mount of Olives just to the east of the main City of Jerusalem (but still reckoned to be located within the environs of Jerusalem), there are three summits to that Mount of Olives. The northern summit (hill) is called Scopus [Hill One], the middle summit (hill) was called Nob [Hill Two], the highest point of Olivet itself, and the southern summit (hill) was called in the Holy Scriptures the "Mount of Corruption" or "Mount of Offence" [Hill Three] (II Kings 23:13). On the middle ridge between the Kedron and the Tyropoeon Valleys there was (formerly) in the south "Mount Zion" [Hill Four] (the original "Mount Zion" and not the later southwest hill that was later called by that name), then the "Ophel Mount" [Hill Five] and then to the north of that the "Rock" around which "Fort Antonia" was built [Hill Six]. And finally, there was the southwest hill itself [Hill Seven] that finally became known in the time of Simon the Hasmonean as the new "Mount Zion." This makes "Seven Hills" in all.
Even your article says:
It was common custom in the centuries before Christ for people in the Roman world to refer to the City of Rome itself as the "City of Seven Hills." The references are numerous and consistent.
It never says Jerusalem is called the City of Seven Hills, even saying there are 7 hills there.

You must deal with the context as given. And the horns and kings eliminate Jerusalem from consideration.

And 7 kings. Back to the statue, with its 7 kings.

No bearing on who the woman is, only who she is in league with, and while you say it is the EU Scripture says the men who recieve power from one hour with the Beast come into their kingdoms at that time. This would eliminate any existing country in existance at that time, you can't recieve something you alraedy have;

The EU is not the kingdom... yet. The kingdoms who get must be there prior to the getting.

They are there, now.

And what are you talking about it does not define who the woman is? Rome and the religions of Rome have ridden on these nations from the beginning. They have always been her power source.

Israel can make no such claim. Ever.

They are the kings and kingdoms as defined by Daniel, in the Statue. You cannot get around that fact. Or the fact that is the lineage of nations, Mystery Babylon, Christ destroys at the Second Coming.

It says Rome is gone forever. Jerusalem most assuredly exists until the end of time.
The AC is the Beast who was, is not and will be is Alexander the Great. More correctly his demon.
Again you have no Scripture to show this is Alex and 'his demon' would have existed even before the flood of Noah's time
I don't have to show evidence for such a false proof claim. You have no basis for even asking that question.

And the king to come is from the Ten Toes as the restored Roman Empire, the EU in its current form.
Go ahead paint your wisdom into a corner, only time will tell who these are, it could be the 10 most corrupt people in all of the world at the time meeting with the Beast.
I am painting nothing into a corner. This is historical fact Rome fell apart into the Ten Nations the AC and his empire will rise from. And any person willing to make the effort can overlay the maps and see for themselves they are one and the same.

Daniel says the AC arises from the Toes and from the 3rd Beast.

The Third Beast is Alexander. One of the five who were, are not and the one that will be.
Does not take a genius to put the given facts together and see it has to be Alex.
He conquered by Treaty heavily. So does the AC. He was fast and deadly in military actions. So is the AC. His lover was another man. The AC scorns women. He was a godking. The AC will be a godkind.

Do some research. They line up right down the line. Even to wearing white with a white horse.

You have zero linkage, from the Bible, of Jerusalem to Mystery Babylon in Daniel. None.

They will destroy the Roman Catholic Church and revert it to the a Pagan form worshipping the AC.
I thought you thought they were alraedy a pagan Church?
Rome is paganised Christianity. Pagan Rome clothed in Christianity.

The AC will completely shed the Christianity and fully revert to Pagan ways.

I see the semantical point you make here.

Most likely, notice how God is calling to His people to come out of her, why would Jews be in Rome at this time?

I believe it includes, in meaning, those who are in Catholicism, anywhere.
Indeed, there are Catholic Churches even in Jerusalem.
Finally, this most assuredly eliminates Jerusalem. For it is never totally destroyed and will be the City and Throne of Christ in the MK.

Rome. No way Jerusalem.

Your verses do not address this issue.

Rome, Mystery Babylon, is clearly stated to be destroyed utterly. Nothing less. Never will rise again, be a city or anything else.

Israel, and Jerusalem, are absolutely not destroyed utterly to never arise again. Extensively, yes, but utterly, no.

Jerusalem has existed for thousands of years. And the Bible clearly says, after the MK, it will be standing and will be attacked, again. So it does rise again, does contain the MK Temple, does have people, does have birth and death an so on.

No way around this statement being about Rome and not Israel. And since this is the destruction of Mystery Babylon, Rome is Mystery Babylon and Jersualem absolutely cannot be.

Rome is the City on Seven Hills, is the 4th Beast of Daniel, is the legs of the Statue, did fall into Ten Nations, is the geographical area of the EU and more.

Adding to the Alexander points. Alexander took a federation of Greek states and turne them into a conquering Empire with him as godking. The AC will do the same with the EU.

[MHz]

Your verses do not change the fact these are the colors of Rome.


[QUOTE]You have zero linkage, from the Bible, of Jerusalem to Mystery Babylon in Daniel. None.

I covered all the points that describe the woman, it is the one about never being a widow that cannot mean anyplace else, deny Scripture all you want.

whoops lost most of the post, I will do it over later

[CoreIssue]

[quote=CoreIssue]Your verses do not change the fact these are the colors of Rome.




I covered all the points that describe the woman, it is the one about never being a widow that cannot mean anyplace else, deny Scripture all you want.

whoops lost most of the post, I will do it over later
OK. Will wait for the rest.

And no, your points about the Woman do not nail down Jerusalem.

Every point you chose to deal with about Jerusalem also apply to Rome. As in the color and 7 Hills. That doe not make the Woman Jerusalem.

But the points you refused to deal with most assuredly are Rome and cannot be Jerusalem.

As for the Widow remark, your suppositions do not make that what it means. You cannot take that part to exclusion of the parts that you cannot deal with.

The 7 Hills are most assuredly declared part of Mystery Babylon. Jerusalem and Israel are not to be found in the 7 kings, 5 Empires or Ten Toes of the Statue.

It does not matter Israel was conquered by them. The statue is not about the conquered, but the conquerors.

Now, to deal with the Widow issue.

First, it does not say she will never be a widpw. It says she is not a widow.

NIV
7Give her as much torture and grief
as the glory and luxury she gave herself.
In her heart she boasts,
'I sit as queen; I am not a widow,
and I will never mourn.'

NASB
7"(C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2018:6-8;&version=49;#cen-NASB-31002C))To the degree that she glorified herself and (D (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2018:6-8;&version=49;#cen-NASB-31002D))lived sensuously, to the same degree give her torment and mourning; for she says in her heart, '(E (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2018:6-8;&version=49;#cen-NASB-31002E))I SIT as A QUEEN AND I AM NOT A WIDOW, and will never see mourning.'


NKJV
7 In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, ‘I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.’

KJV
7How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
Your beginning statement is wrong. You claim what is not said.

She is not a widow. She will not see sorrow. Not she will not be a widow.

Jerusalem has most assuredly seen much sorrow, is seeing sorrow now and will continue to see sorrow until the Second Coming. Thus, your premise is disproven.

Rome has been in continous riches and such for over 2,000 years. And she has always had suitors, been married to many nations.

She lies to herself, as the passage says. It states she says these things to herself, but the purpose of the passage is to show she lies and will get what she had given. She is a Widow maker and a giver of sorrow. She will be a Widow and receive much sorrow, as the verses declare.

There is your answer on the Widow issue.

Rome, not Jerusalem, fits all the given issues.

[MHz]

Hi Core,
Your verses do not change the fact these are the colors of Rome.

A lot of people and countries used those colors. You are jumping elsewhere to try to make theis Jerusalem and ignoring the plain facts stated in the context and passages we are looking at.

Are you denying these are the colors of Pagan and Catholic Rome?
All I'm pointing out is that these are also the colors og the Jewish temple, it has to do with the (type of Jews) that stoned Stephen being in control. Based on color Jerusalem cannoy be elimanated as a possible location.

They did not preach the Gospel of Christ. They did not go around preaching Christ.
They preached Law and obedience to God.
Christ was but a prophetic notion to them.

If Jesus said the prophets from after Moses had things to say about Him then they did have testimony;
Re:17:6: And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
Was Stephen a martyr? Are OT prophets saints?
M't:27:52: And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,


Again, you leave passage context and jump to other verses to attempt to redefine what is said. And you only quote selected verses, out of context, in Revelation.

You avoid those that make it impossible to be Jerusalem.

Again, you depart from the full context of the Revelation passage and construct a false argument that has nothing to do with the context of Revelation.

If it adds information it is not redefining


False. Not all prophets spoke of Christ. And none went around preaching Christ, ever.

Christ was always prophetic future to them.

If they talked about a coming Messiah or talked about events not yet (or what Christ has already done) then they did. It didn't have to be preached to the people all that had to be accomplished was to write it down.

Daniel's Statue shows 7 kings and the Ten Toe kingdoms. It says the AC will rise out of them.

The Beasts of Daniel define the lineage of Mystery Babylon. Bablylon -Medo-Persia-Greece-Rome.

Israel is included in neither.
Jerusalem was ruled over by all these, not all ruled over Rome.

John is looking back to Daniel. He says 5 kings who were, one is and one will be. 7 kings. Israel not there.
Rome is the one that is, the 6th. If you are a king you cannot be the next king also.

The Ten Toe nations being at the collapse of Rome is historical fact. The EU being the map area of the Ten Toes that will reform the Empire of the AC is fact.
Israel has never been part of that given lineage.
It say they hate the woman, can they hate themselves and destroy themselves?


Even your article says:

It never says Jerusalem is called the City of Seven Hills, even saying there are 7 hills there.

You must deal with the context as given. And the horns and kings eliminate Jerusalem from consideration.

The EU is not the kingdom... yet. The kingdoms who get must be there prior to the getting.

They are there, now.

All that was meant to do was show you there are 7 hills (in Scripture) associated with Jerusalem, I admitted there are other places that have 7 hills. Is a mount a mountain or a hill?

And what are you talking about it does not define who the woman is? Rome and the religions of Rome have ridden on these nations from the beginning. They have always been her power source.

Israel can make no such claim. Ever.
Rome wasn't always an Empire

They are the kings and kingdoms as defined by Daniel, in the Statue. You cannot get around that fact. Or the fact that is the lineage of nations, Mystery Babylon, Christ destroys at the Second Coming.


It says Rome is gone forever. Jerusalem most assuredly exists until the end of time.
When Christ stands on the Mount of Olives Jerusalem is split in two, half going north and half going south. This is never undone.

I don't have to show evidence for such a false proof claim. You have no basis for even asking that question.
Sure I do, there was angelic activity on Earth before the flood, if the beast that is released from the pit was there (and in the pit since then) then that is who is being referenced, not Alex.

I am painting nothing into a corner. This is historical fact Rome fell apart into the Ten Nations the AC and his empire will rise from. And any person willing to make the effort can overlay the maps and see for themselves they are one and the same.
Again it says the 10 men don't have kingdoms untill that meeting with the beast, so it can't be present countries.

Daniel says the AC arises from the Toes and from the 3rd Beast.


The Third Beast is Alexander. One of the five who were, are not and the one that will be.
Does not take a genius to put the given facts together and see it has to be Alex.
He conquered by Treaty heavily. So does the AC. He was fast and deadly in military actions. So is the AC. His lover was another man. The AC scorns women. He was a godking. The AC will be a godkind.
Re:17:16: And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

So why would a resurrected Roman Empire destroy their own base?

Do some research. They line up right down the line. Even to wearing white with a white horse.

To long to answer here, sois the topic of where Rome fits in with the statue they are from the brass, Daniel 8, they are the ones who take away the sacrifice

You have zero linkage, from the Bible, of Jerusalem to Mystery Babylon in Daniel. None.
Here is one aspect not covered yet;
Re:18:2: And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

These events donot happen anywhere other than in His land;

Isa:34:2: For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
Isa:34:3: Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
Isa:34:4: And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
Isa:34:5: For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
Isa:34:6: The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
Isa:34:7: And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
Isa:34:8: For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Isa:34:9: And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
Isa:34:10: It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
Isa:34:11: But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.
Isa:34:12: They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but none shall be there, and all her princes shall be nothing.
Isa:34:13: And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls.
Isa:34:14: The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest.
Isa:34:15: There shall the great owl make her nest, and lay, and hatch, and gather under her shadow: there shall the vultures also be gathered, every one with her mate.
Isa:34:16: Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.
Isa:34:17: And he hath cast the lot for them, and his hand hath divided it unto them by line: they shall possess it for ever, from generation to generation shall they dwell therein.

Rome is paganised Christianity. Pagan Rome clothed in Christianity.

The AC will completely shed the Christianity and fully revert to Pagan ways.
A fitting desrciption of this Church;
Re:2:4: Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Re:2:5: Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Re:2:6: But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
Re:2:7: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.



I'll expand on the few points not fully covered and on the ones not covered yet in my next post, later

[CoreIssue]

Hi MHz,

All I'm pointing out is that these are also the colors og the Jewish temple, it has to do with the (type of Jews) that stoned Stephen being in control. Based on color Jerusalem cannoy be elimanated as a possible location.

OK.

But that issue, alone, does nothing to identify the Harlot. Rome or Jerusalem.

They did not preach the Gospel of Christ. They did not go around preaching Christ.
They preached Law and obedience to God.
Christ was but a prophetic notion to them.

If Jesus said the prophets from after Moses had things to say about Him then they did have testimony;
Re:17:6: And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Followers of Jesus.
Jesus did not exist in the OT. No one followed him. He was a promise, not a fact.
They taught and followed God and Mosaic Law.
Was Stephen a martyr?
Yes.
Are OT prophets saints?
M't:27:52: And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Yes. But they were not followers of Jesus.
Jesus preached to them in Paradise and they accepted him there. Not before.

Again, you leave passage context and jump to other verses to attempt to redefine what is said. And you only quote selected verses, out of context, in Revelation.

You avoid those that make it impossible to be Jerusalem.

Again, you depart from the full context of the Revelation passage and construct a false argument that has nothing to do with the context of Revelation.

If it adds information it is not redefining

It adds nothing to the context when it is a different issue. You keep jumping topics.
False. Not all prophets spoke of Christ. And none went around preaching Christ, ever.

Christ was always prophetic future to them.

If they talked about a coming Messiah or talked about events not yet (or what Christ has already done) then they did. It didn't have to be preached to the people all that had to be accomplished was to write it down.
Christ had done nothing in the OT. He did not exist yet.

Daniel's Statue shows 7 kings and the Ten Toe kingdoms. It says the AC will rise out of them.

The Beasts of Daniel define the lineage of Mystery Babylon. Bablylon -Medo-Persia-Greece-Rome.

Israel is included in neither.
Jerusalem was ruled over by all these, not all ruled over Rome.
Ruling, not being ruled over, is the issue.
Israel is not included as either a nation or a king in the Statue.
You create a false fact by changing what the Statue represents.

John is looking back to Daniel. He says 5 kings who were, one is and one will be. 7 kings. Israel not there.
Rome is the one that is, the 6th. If you are a king you cannot be the next king also.
Rome divided into two Kingdom. Exactly what the legs show.
The Ten Toes come from Both legs, not one.

The Ten Toe nations being at the collapse of Rome is historical fact. The EU being the map area of the Ten Toes that will reform the Empire of the AC is fact.
Israel has never been part of that given lineage.
It say they hate the woman, can they hate themselves and destroy themselves?
The hate the RCC, which is in Rome, not Rome itself.
They destroy the religion, but mourn the loss of the city. Right there in the passage.

Even your article says:

It never says Jerusalem is called the City of Seven Hills, even saying there are 7 hills there.

You must deal with the context as given. And the horns and kings eliminate Jerusalem from consideration.

The EU is not the kingdom... yet. The kingdoms who get must be there prior to the getting.

They are there, now.

All that was meant to do was show you there are 7 hills (in Scripture) associated with Jerusalem, I admitted there are other places that have 7 hills. Is a mount a mountain or a hill?
Mount seems to get used both ways, I believe.
But having 7 Hills, again, by itself, does not prove either Rome or Jerusalem.
You have to go through the list of potentials and cross out the ones that do not fit the facts as you go.
Jerusalem is crossed out over the Martyrs, 7 kings and 10 kingdoms issues, in example.
All demands must be met, not just some, for defining Mystery Babylon.

And what are you talking about it does not define who the woman is? Rome and the religions of Rome have ridden on these nations from the beginning. They have always been her power source.

Israel can make no such claim. Ever.
Rome wasn't always an Empire
Rome was an Empire when included into the Statue. It remained an Empire until it collapsed into the Ten.
But even collapsed, via the Holy Roman Empire, and such, it has always held sway over these nations in some way or another. Even under the EU, it is a force to be reconned with.
The RCC has suiters and power via many via nations and peoples right now.

They are the kings and kingdoms as defined by Daniel, in the Statue. You cannot get around that fact. Or the fact that is the lineage of nations, Mystery Babylon, Christ destroys at the Second Coming.

It says Rome is gone forever. Jerusalem most assuredly exists until the end of time.
When Christ stands on the Mount of Olives Jerusalem is split in two, half going north and half going south. This is never undone.
But Jerusalem is not destroyed. It does not end forever. It is rebuilt, the Temple is redone and Christ rules from Jerusalem.
Rome is gone. Wiped out. Never rebuilt or lived in again.
It does not split Jerusalem totally in half. It creates a waterway to Jerusalem.
You cannot equate this splitting to total destruction from which it will never be rebuilt, lived in again or remembered.

I don't have to show evidence for such a false proof claim. You have no basis for even asking that question.
Sure I do, there was angelic activity on Earth before the flood, if the beast that is released from the pit was there (and in the pit since then) then that is who is being referenced, not Alex.
Wrong. You have been shown the demon enters a human. The human is the FP. They demon is the FP. They are the FP.
Just as with the AC. The demon plus the human is the king. The demon entering a new human makes him the king that was via the demon.

I am painting nothing into a corner. This is historical fact Rome fell apart into the Ten Nations the AC and his empire will rise from. And any person willing to make the effort can overlay the maps and see for themselves they are one and the same.
Again it says the 10 men don't have kingdoms untill that meeting with the beast, so it can't be present countries.
It does not say that.
12"The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.
Along with does not say when they meet the Beast.
Most assuredly the countries are already here. Those kings, not the kingdoms, are what are stated.
It says they did not exist at the time of John. But at the time of the AC they will. And when he receives his power they will receive theirs. Be that being appointed by the AC, or whatever, the countries already exist because the AC arises from those countries.
He cannot arise from what does not exist.
Daniel says the AC arises from the Toes and from the 3rd Beast.


The Third Beast is Alexander. One of the five who were, are not and the one that will be.
Does not take a genius to put the given facts together and see it has to be Alex.
He conquered by Treaty heavily. So does the AC. He was fast and deadly in military actions. So is the AC. His lover was another man. The AC scorns women. He was a godking. The AC will be a godkind.
Re:17:16: And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

So why would a resurrected Roman Empire destroy their own base?
Not the city. Not the empire.
They destroy the RCC who is in Rome and the Harlot.

Do some research. They line up right down the line. Even to wearing white with a white horse.
To long to answer here, sois the topic of where Rome fits in with the statue they are from the brass, Daniel 8, they are the ones who take away the sacrifice
Not they, but he.
The AC arises from the restored Ten Toe Empire. That is the EU/Old Roman Empire lands. Greece is a part of that.
He is the one who makes the treaty and breaks it Mid 70th Week, taking away the sacrifices.
Perfect match up.
Rome is the physical aspect of Mystery Babylon. Mystery Babylon is the combination of all the Empires of the Statue, as shown in the description of the Beast's body.

You have zero linkage, from the Bible, of Jerusalem to Mystery Babylon in Daniel. None.
Here is one aspect not covered yet;
Re:18:2: And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

These events donot happen anywhere other than in His land;

Which all falls in the 7th Bowl when Rome is destroyed.
Destroyed never to be rebuilt or lived in again. Jerusalem most assuredly is rebuilt and lived in.
Your Isaiah verses are not dealing with the 7th Bowl destruction of Revelation. And not Rome.
That is not Jerusalem being talked about.
Those lands will be reinhabited. Rome will not be.
I'll expand on the few points not fully covered and on the ones not covered yet in my next post, later
OK.

Later.

[MHz]

Hi Core,
OK.
But that issue, alone, does nothing to identify the Harlot. Rome or Jerusalem.
You are right, the city has to meet all the descriptions, the colors and the 7 hills (mountains) apply to more than one place, Rome and Jerusalem being the most likely candidates so far.

Followers of Jesus.
Jesus did not exist in the OT. No one followed him. He was a promise, not a fact.
They taught and followed God and Mosaic Law.
If they wrote anything about Jesus (even if they didn't know it was about Jesus) then they had testimony. If they said nothing then Jesus would have had nothing to say to the Apostles in this verse;
Lu:24:27: And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Just one example;
Zep:1:18: Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

This is about Jesus.

Yes. But they were not followers of Jesus.
Jesus preached to them in Paradise and they accepted him there. Not before.
Re:17:6: And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Was John the Baptist killed by a Roman or a Jew?

Doesn't Scripture say saints and martyrs?

Before John the Baptist Rome couldn't have killed any (sent by God or having power from God) because John was the first in a very long time that was anointed by God.

It adds nothing to the context when it is a different issue. You keep jumping topics.

Not every word about one topic is found in one place in Scripture, the full amount of words said come from more than one chapter of one book.

Christ had done nothing in the OT. He did not exist yet.
Although we disagree about the trinity, you yourself have said when there were three seen (as with Abraham just before two went to see Lot). Even leaving this topic alone if prophecy was written about what He would do after being born in the flesh the He was spoken (written about). That verse says "he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.". It could cover only things after His birth which it many, many verses.

Ruling, not being ruled over, is the issue.
Israel is not included as either a nation or a king in the Statue.
You create a false fact by changing what the Statue represents.
I was just making a point, Neb's Babylon neve ruled over Rome, nor did the next two (as far as I know). I'm not even sure Neb is covered in the descriptions of the beast Daniel saw, head of gold.

Rome divided into two Kingdom. Exactly what the legs show.
The Ten Toes come from Both legs, not one.
I think we agree that the silver in the statue actually covers two kings, the next two after Neb. After these two comes Alex which is from the brass. The brass, like the silver has more than one king, after Alex there are 4 kings;

Da:8:8: Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
Da:8:9: And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

North-west of Jerusalem is Rome.

Da:8:21: And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
Da:8:22: Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
Da:8:23: And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

If Rome was within 4 kingdoms that ruled over Jerusalem after Alex then Rome is from the brass not from the iron (legs).

These verses certainly describe what Rome did accomplish;

Da:8:10: And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
Da:8:11: Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
Da:8:12: And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Vs 10 would seem to cover all Rome has done, including the RCC in the middle ages.
Vs 11 the cross was the end of the daily sacrifice, His blood was the last blood sacrifice and in 70 AD the santuary was cast down.

The hate the RCC, which is in Rome, not Rome itself.
They destroy the religion, but mourn the loss of the city. Right there in the passage.
They hate pagan Christianity? I would think they would embrace it, the more pagan the better it meets their wants.

Mount seems to get used both ways, I believe.
But having 7 Hills, again, by itself, does not prove either Rome or Jerusalem.
You have to go through the list of potentials and cross out the ones that do not fit the facts as you go.
Jerusalem is crossed out over the Martyrs, 7 kings and 10 kingdoms issues, in example.
All demands must be met, not just some, for defining Mystery Babylon.
Why both John and Stephen were killed by Jews. The kings and kingdoms are not Babylon, just the woman is, they are what initally support her.

Rome was an Empire when included into the Statue. It remained an Empire until it collapsed into the Ten.
But even collapsed, via the Holy Roman Empire, and such, it has always held sway over these nations in some way or another. Even under the EU, it is a force to be reconned with.
The RCC has suiters and power via many via nations and peoples right now.
Since the RCC was established before the fall of the political and military Roman Empire and has had influence all through untill even today, when did it fall?

But Jerusalem is not destroyed. It does not end forever. It is rebuilt, the Temple is redone and Christ rules from Jerusalem.
Rome is gone. Wiped out. Never rebuilt or lived in again.
It does not split Jerusalem totally in half. It creates a waterway to Jerusalem.
You cannot equate this splitting to total destruction from which it will never be rebuilt, lived in again or remembered.

Zec:14:4: And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Are you saying being west of the mount it remains untouched?

A very great waterway from just how far this person went into it, I assume if entered into from the other side it would also be the same distance so it should be at least twice this wide;

Eze:47:1: Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar.
Eze:47:2: Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side.
Eze:47:3: And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ancles.
Eze:47:4: Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins.
Eze:47:5: Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.
Eze:47:6: And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.
Eze:47:7: Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.
Eze:47:8: Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
Eze:47:9: And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
Eze:47:10: And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from En-gedi even unto En-eglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.

About 12000 feet using 18" as the length of a cubit, not counting the distance where they would have had to swim. It doesn't say if this water covers the whole (new) valley

Gotta run, finish next time

[CoreIssue]

Hey MHz,

Followers of Jesus.
Jesus did not exist in the OT. No one followed him. He was a promise, not a fact.
They taught and followed God and Mosaic Law.
If they wrote anything about Jesus (even if they didn't know it was about Jesus) then they had testimony. If they said nothing then Jesus would have had nothing to say to the Apostles in this verse;
Lu:24:27: And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Giving prophetic evidence to prove who is is not the same thing as preaching the Gospel. They were not Christians and did not preach Jesus.
They preached God, from whom the prophetic promises came, and Mosaic Law.
They did not die for Jesus. They did not accept Jesus until he entered Paradise and peached to him.

Just one example;
Zep:1:18: Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

This is about Jesus.
To them that was about God. Lord is a title of God.
Even in anticipating Christ's Coming they debated who he was. And to many how he came was neither what they expected or wanted.

Yes. But they were not followers of Jesus.
Jesus preached to them in Paradise and they accepted him there. Not before.
Re:17:6: And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Was John the Baptist killed by a Roman or a Jew?

Doesn't Scripture say saints and martyrs?
It says the one killed by the Woman, not every saint killed by whomever.

Before John the Baptist Rome couldn't have killed any (sent by God or having power from God) because John was the first in a very long time that was anointed by God.
Wrong. The verse is about any saint. Not just prophets and specially annointed.
Jerusalem killed no saints from 70 AD on. But Rome most assuredly killed tens or hundreds of millions of saints. Far more than Jerusalem ever killed in the OT.
Jersualem killed less than 100 saints by Biblical indications. Rome, again, killed 10s or 100s of millions. Over 50 million in the Inquisition alone.

It adds nothing to the context when it is a different issue. You keep jumping topics.

Not every word about one topic is found in one place in Scripture, the full amount of words said come from more than one chapter of one book.
I never said it was. But giving verses about nations nations and lands near Israel, that get depopulated, but repopulated in the MK, has zero value as showing who Mystery Babylon is when the Woman gets wiped out to never be populated again.
Apples and oranges comparisons.
Christ had done nothing in the OT. He did not exist yet.
Although we disagree about the trinity, you yourself have said when there were three seen (as with Abraham just before two went to see Lot). Even leaving this topic alone if prophecy was written about what He would do after being born in the flesh the He was spoken (written about). That verse says "he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.". It could cover only things after His birth which it many, many verses.
Christ is God in the flesh. These three were God and there was no flesh.
Verses about his divinity in the OT does not make him Christ in the OT.
And he most assuredly was born under Rome. Israel was a conquered nation.
Ruling, not being ruled over, is the issue.
Israel is not included as either a nation or a king in the Statue.
You create a false fact by changing what the Statue represents.
I was just making a point, Neb's Babylon neve ruled over Rome, nor did the next two (as far as I know). I'm not even sure Neb is covered in the descriptions of the beast Daniel saw, head of gold.
Which means nothing since Mystery Babylon is not about a physical land.
And most assuredly Neb is the Beast with the wings. The one with the wings ripped off is still Babylon, but not Neb.
And Daniels says Neb is the Head of God.

Rome divided into two Kingdom. Exactly what the legs show.
The Ten Toes come from Both legs, not one.
I think we agree that the silver in the statue actually covers two kings, the next two after Neb. After these two comes Alex which is from the brass. The brass, like the silver has more than one king, after Alex there are 4 kings;

Da:8:8: Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
Da:8:9: And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

North-west of Jerusalem is Rome.

Yes. Out of means the 4th Beast ends with the first kind.
And again, the statue is only about one Brass kingdom and one king. You cannot find the 4 in the Statue description.
Da:8:21: And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
Da:8:22: Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
Da:8:23: And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

And this is mentioned because the AC will rise out of the Ten, of which one is Greece, who was part of the Brass and one of the four.
The Ten Toes deal with the geographical area of the Empire. This deals with with where the AC will specifically arise from.
Either way, Jerusalem is neither.
If Rome was within 4 kingdoms that ruled over Jerusalem after Alex then Rome is from the brass not from the iron (legs).
Rome was not within the 4. Rome ruled the 4.
Rome was never ruled over by any of the 4.
These verses certainly describe what Rome did accomplish;

Da:8:10: And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
Da:8:11: Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
Da:8:12: And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Not did accomplish. But will accomplish.
None of that has happened yet.
Vs 10 would seem to cover all Rome has done, including the RCC in the middle ages.
Has not happened yet.
Vs 11 the cross was the end of the daily sacrifice, His blood was the last blood sacrifice and in 70 AD the santuary was cast down.
No! It says the Beast ends the daily sacrifice, not Christ.
Trying to interject Christ here is to call him the Beast.
Has not happened yet. This is Mid Trib, as per Daniel. You are still trying to make the 70th Week part historical and cannot.
The hate the RCC, which is in Rome, not Rome itself.
They destroy the religion, but mourn the loss of the city. Right there in the passage.
They hate pagan Christianity? I would think they would embrace it, the more pagan the better it meets their wants.
They hate anything with God or Christ attached to it in any form.

Mount seems to get used both ways, I believe.
But having 7 Hills, again, by itself, does not prove either Rome or Jerusalem.
You have to go through the list of potentials and cross out the ones that do not fit the facts as you go.
Jerusalem is crossed out over the Martyrs, 7 kings and 10 kingdoms issues, in example.
All demands must be met, not just some, for defining Mystery Babylon.
Why both John and Stephen were killed by Jews. The kings and kingdoms are not Babylon, just the woman is, they are what initally support her.
Everything in the Statue and Beasts are Mystery Babylon.
John and Stephen were not killed by the Woman.

Rome was an Empire when included into the Statue. It remained an Empire until it collapsed into the Ten.
But even collapsed, via the Holy Roman Empire, and such, it has always held sway over these nations in some way or another. Even under the EU, it is a force to be reconned with.
The RCC has suiters and power via many via nations and peoples right now.
Since the RCC was established before the fall of the political and military Roman Empire and has had influence all through untill even today, when did it fall?
I would have to dig up the maps and such.
Around 1100, if memory serves me correctly.
It fell as an Empire. But not as an entity.

But Jerusalem is not destroyed. It does not end forever. It is rebuilt, the Temple is redone and Christ rules from Jerusalem.
Rome is gone. Wiped out. Never rebuilt or lived in again.
It does not split Jerusalem totally in half. It creates a waterway to Jerusalem.
You cannot equate this splitting to total destruction from which it will never be rebuilt, lived in again or remembered.

Zec:14:4: And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
That does not destroy Jerusalem.
Read on. You will most assuredly see Jerusalem is still there and function after this event in Zec.

Are you saying being west of the mount it remains untouched?
It opens up. Divides. what on each side is not destroyed, just moved.

A very great waterway from just how far this person went into it, I assume if entered into from the other side it would also be the same distance so it should be at least twice this wide;
So? Jerusalem is not swallowed.
As said, read on in the chapter. Jerusalem is still there.

As for the Ezekiel verses.

About 12000 feet using 18" as the length of a cubit, not counting the distance where they would have had to swim. It doesn't say if this water covers the whole (new) valley

Again, Jerusalem is most assuredly still there.
Gotta run, finish next time
OK.
Your own verses show you are wrong. Jerusalem is most assuredly not destroyed to never be inhabited again.
And the NJ does not descend, if that is what you are getting at.

[MHz]

Hi Core,

Wrong. You have been shown the demon enters a human. The human is the FP. They demon is the FP. They are the FP.
Just as with the AC. The demon plus the human is the king. The demon entering a new human makes him the king that was via the demon.
You do know "AC" is a term never used in Revelations, right
So Satan brings a human out of the pit, how many other men has Satan resurrected? Zero, he does not have that power. Satan can give power and authority to one of his fallen angels though;
Re:13:4:
And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast:
and they worshipped the beast,
saying, Who is like unto the beast?
who is able to make war with him?


It does not say that.
Along with does not say when they meet the Beast.

Re:17:12:
And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings,
which have received no kingdom as yet;
but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
Re:17:13:
These have one mind,
and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

Really, these verses say just that, no kingdoms untill they spend one hour with the beast that Satan releases from the pit. This meeting has to take place before 'the toes' can give their support, which would include what people in those 10 kingdoms can give.

So are you saying the beast has already given these 10 men kingdoms (the current EU)? It is a yet to be event

Most assuredly the countries are already here. Those kings, not the kingdoms, are what are stated.
It says they did not exist at the time of John. But at the time of the AC they will. And when he receives his power they will receive theirs. Be that being appointed by the AC, or whatever, the countries already exist because the AC arises from those countries.
He cannot arise from what does not exist.
Daniel says the AC arises from the Toes and from the 3rd Beast.
It is the False Prophet that comes from these 10 kingdoms.

Da:7:8:
I considered the horns,
and, behold,
there came up among them another little horn,
before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots:
and,
behold,
in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man,
and a mouth speaking great things.

Takes control of three of the ten kingdoms.

Da:7:20:
And of the ten horns that were in his head,
and of the other which came up,
and before whom three fell;
even of that horn that had eyes,
and a mouth that spake very great things,
whose look was more stout than his fellows.
Da:7:21:
I beheld,
and the same horn made war with the saints,
and prevailed against them;
Da:7:22:
Until the Ancient of days came,
and judgment was given to the saints of the most High;
and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

The saints in the above, and below, are the two witnesses although the ones from here have to be in there also
(Da:11:33:
And they that understand among the people shall instruct many:
yet they shall fall by the sword,
and by flame,
by captivity,
and by spoil,
many days.);

Da:7:24:
And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise:
and another shall rise after them;
and he shall be diverse from the first,
and he shall subdue three kings.
Da:7:25:
And he shall speak great words against the most High,
and shall wear out the saints of the most High,
and think to change times and laws:
and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Not the city. Not the empire.
They destroy the RCC who is in Rome and the Harlot.
Did you know all Jews (except the 144,000) were prophecised to die during Satan's 42 months? Would that be consistant with being destroyed?

Not they, but he.
The AC arises from the restored Ten Toe Empire. That is the EU/Old Roman Empire lands. Greece is a part of that.
He is the one who makes the treaty and breaks it Mid 70th Week, taking away the sacrifices.
Perfect match up.
Rome is the physical aspect of Mystery Babylon. Mystery Babylon is the combination of all the Empires of the Statue, as shown in the description of the Beast's body.

She rides the beast, she is a city', the scarlet beast is the red dragon, her father;

Re:17:3:
So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness:
and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast,
full of names of blasphemy,
having seven heads and ten horns.

Re:12:3:
And there appeared another wonder in heaven;
and behold a great red dragon,
having seven heads and ten horns,
and seven crowns upon his heads.

Joh:8:44:
Ye are of your father the devil,
and the lusts of your father ye will do.
He was a murderer from the beginning,
and abode not in the truth,
because there is no truth in him.
When he speaketh a lie,
he speaketh of his own:
for he is a liar,
and the father of it.

The dragon of Revelations gives this beast it's power;
Re:13:2:
And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard,
and his feet were as the feet of a bear,
and his mouth as the mouth of a lion:
and the dragon gave him his power,
and his seat,
and great authority.


To be totally correct it would be the Vatican City, not Rome, that would be destroyed


Which all falls in the 7th Bowl when Rome is destroyed.
Destroyed never to be rebuilt or lived in again. Jerusalem most assuredly is rebuilt and lived in.
Your Isaiah verses are not dealing with the 7th Bowl destruction of Revelation. And not Rome.
That is not Jerusalem being talked about.
Those lands will be reinhabited. Rome will not be.


Isa:34:6:
The sword of the LORD is filled with blood,
it is made fat with fatness,
and with the blood of lambs and goats,
with the fat of the kidneys of rams:
for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah,
and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.

Bozrah
Southwest Jordan* (just north of Petra)
http://www.divineintervention.ws/ChristianResources/ReferenceMaps/ReferenceMaps.htm


Idumea
Just west of the Dead Sea,
http://www.fsmitha.com/h1/map24jud.htm

Isa:34:7:
And the unicorns shall come down with them,
and the bullocks with the bulls;
and their land shall be soaked with blood,
and their dust made fat with fatness.
Isa:34:8:
For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance,
and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Isa:34:9:
And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch,
and the dust thereof into brimstone,
and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
Isa:34:10:
It shall not be quenched night nor day;
the smoke thereof shall go up for ever:
from generation to generation it shall lie waste;
none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

No mention of Rome here

Hey MHz,

Giving prophetic evidence to prove who is is not the same thing as preaching the Gospel. They were not Christians and did not preach Jesus.
They preached God, from whom the prophetic promises came, and Mosaic Law.
They did not die for Jesus. They did not accept Jesus until he entered Paradise and peached to him.
Please give me the exact verse you are referencing for this subject, from whatever translation best suits your POV, the one I have has the two references 'saints' and 'martyrs of Jesus', both John the Baptist and Stephen were from the second reference even though John was a prophet sent by God he was the witness to Jesus. The two witnesses in Revelations are also associated with Jesus;
Re:11:3:
And I will give power unto my two witnesses,
and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days,
clothed in sackcloth.

What prophet has Rome killed? There was only John (Jesus being much more than a prophet and in reallity the Romans never plotted His death)and the Jews killed him, not the Romans;
Re:18:24:
And in her was found the blood of prophets,
and of saints,
and of all that were slain upon the earth.

According to Scripture this is who is guilty of the above deeds;

M't:23:34:
Wherefore,
behold,
I send unto you prophets,
and wise men,
and scribes:
and some of them ye shall kill and crucify;
and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues,
and persecute them from city to city:

M't:23:37:
O Jerusalem,
Jerusalem,
thou that killest the prophets,
and stonest them which are sent unto thee,
how often would I have gathered thy children together,
even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings,
and ye would not!

To them that was about God. Lord is a title of God.
Even in anticipating Christ's Coming they debated who he was. And to many how he came was neither what they expected or wanted.

None of the prophets who wrote about Him coming were alive except John the Baptist. Not one word is said about the prophets ever debating, the ones who did debate who He was were obviously not saints, all saints were be in agreement on this point.

It says the one killed by the Woman, not every saint killed by whomever.

It also says saints were raised by Christ at His resurrection, in the way you define saint it can be all of Isreal that believed in God, but that didn't happen then did it? There are about 26 'major prophets' in the OT, that number can be called many. Today you like to call all believers 'saints', not a very humble position in my view when there is also the terms, believer and those that fear thy name, yet these two terms lose meaning and suddenly there are only saints. The two witnesses are certainly saints, you know with authority and the power that comes with authority. If all believers in Christ are saints then they are also saints without any authority, there is no such thing as a saint without authority similar to what the Apostles could do as a sign that they were 'approved by God'. If you call yourself a saint show me that you are by healing an amputated limb for somebody, if you can't then I will still accept you as a believer and one that fears His name, the same group I am from.


Wrong. The verse is about any saint. Not just prophets and specially annointed.
Jerusalem killed no saints from 70 AD on. But Rome most assuredly killed tens or hundreds of millions of saints. Far more than Jerusalem ever killed in the OT.
Jersualem killed less than 100 saints by Biblical indications. Rome, again, killed 10s or 100s of millions. Over 50 million in the Inquisition alone.

Again your defination of saint is premature to your current standing, when you are with Christ in the camp of the saints when Satan is about to be destroyed I will most certainly agree that you are now a saint, untill then I don't believe you defination fits in whth what Scripture calls a saint.

I never said it was. But giving verses about nations nations and lands near Israel, that get depopulated, but repopulated in the MK, has zero value as showing who Mystery Babylon is when the Woman gets wiped out to never be populated again.
Apples and oranges comparisons.

That would have to mean 100% of the land is restored, if two small portions are set aside (like where the bones of Ezekiel 39 are buried) then these places are not inhabitated or restored to what the places the living waters reach. It is for a remberance, Satan still has one more appearance a thousand years in the future from when the bones are there to be gathered.

Christ is God in the flesh. These three were God and there was no flesh.
Verses about his divinity in the OT does not make him Christ in the OT.
And he most assuredly was born under Rome. Israel was a conquered nation.

Yet every book has some words about what is a yet to be event, done by Christ

Which means nothing since Mystery Babylon is not about a physical land.
And most assuredly Neb is the Beast with the wings. The one with the wings ripped off is still Babylon, but not Neb.
And Daniels says Neb is the Head of God.

True but the beast (either one) in Revelations has no wings, so it is based on the other beasts, don't forget how Neb's kingdom ended (in relation to having faith in God);
Da:4:37:
Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven,
all whose works are truth,
and his ways judgment:
and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.

(update during review before posting, Neb would be the lion part)

Yes. Out of means the 4th Beast ends with the first kind.
And again, the statue is only about one Brass kingdom and one king. You cannot find the 4 in the Statue description.
Neither can you find the two in the silver nor the two in the iron.

Chapter 8 says 4 more kingdoms after Alex, even the beast that represents the brass has four heads, Alex being the body of the beast and the four heads are the next four kingdoms to rule over Jerusalem;
Da:7:6:
After this I beheld,
and lo another,
like a leopard,
which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl;
the beast had also four heads;
and dominion was given to it.


And this is mentioned because the AC will rise out of the Ten, of which one is Greece, who was part of the Brass and one of the four.
The Ten Toes deal with the geographical area of the Empire. This deals with with where the AC will specifically arise from.
Either way, Jerusalem is neither.
No it deals with the 10 most corrupt men in the entire world.

Rome was not within the 4. Rome ruled the 4.
Rome was never ruled over by any of the 4.
When Satan arrives it won't only be Rome that is ruled over, all nations will be affected, God has already willed it to be so, thanks to the Jews wanting to kill Jeremiah;
Jer:24:9:
And I will deliver them to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth for their hurt,
to be a reproach and a proverb,
a taunt and a curse,
in all places whither I shall drive them.

Jer:25:26:
And all the kings of the north,
far and near,
one with another,
and all the kingdoms of the world,
which are upon the face of the earth:
and the king of Sheshach shall drink after them.

Jer:25:29:
For,
lo,
I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name,
and should ye be utterly unpunished?
Ye shall not be unpunished:
for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth,
saith the LORD of hosts.

Jer:25:13:
And I will bring upon that land all my words which I have pronounced against it,
even all that is written in this book,
which Jeremiah hath prophesied against all the nations.
Jer:25:14:
For many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of them also:
and I will recompense them according to their deeds,
and according to the works of their own hands.
Jer:25:15:
For thus saith the LORD God of Israel unto me;
Take the wine cup of this fury at my hand,
and cause all the nations,
to whom I send thee,
to drink it.
Jer:25:16:
And they shall drink,
and be moved,
and be mad,
because of the sword that I will send among them.
Jer:25:17:
Then took I the cup at the LORD's hand,
and made all the nations to drink,
unto whom the LORD had sent me:
Jer:25:18:
To wit,
Jerusalem,
and the cities of Judah,
and the kings thereof,
and the princes thereof,
to make them a desolation,
an astonishment,
an hissing,
and a curse;
as it is this day;
Jer:25:19:
Pharaoh king of Egypt,
and his servants,
and his princes,
and all his people;
Jer:25:20:
And all the mingled people,
and all the kings of the land of Uz,
and all the kings of the land of the Philistines,
and Ashkelon,
and Azzah,
and Ekron,
and the remnant of Ashdod,
Jer:25:21:
Edom,
and Moab,
and the children of Ammon,
Jer:25:22:
And all the kings of Tyrus,
and all the kings of Zidon,
and the kings of the isles which are beyond the sea,
Jer:25:23:
Dedan,
and Tema,
and Buz,
and all that are in the utmost corners,
Jer:25:24:
And all the kings of Arabia,
and all the kings of the mingled people that dwell in the desert,
Jer:25:25:
And all the kings of Zimri,
and all the kings of Elam,
and all the kings of the Medes,
Jer:25:26:
And all the kings of the north,
far and near,
one with another,
and all the kingdoms of the world,
which are upon the face of the earth:
and the king of Sheshach shall drink after them.
Jer:25:27:
Therefore thou shalt say unto them,
Thus saith the LORD of hosts,
the God of Israel;
Drink ye,
and be drunken,
and spue,
and fall,
and rise no more,
because of the sword which I will send among you.
Jer:25:28:
And it shall be,
if they refuse to take the cup at thine hand to drink,
then shalt thou say unto them,
Thus saith the LORD of hosts;
Ye shall certainly drink.
Jer:25:29:
For,
lo,
I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name,
and should ye be utterly unpunished?
Ye shall not be unpunished:
for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth,
saith the LORD of hosts.
Jer:25:30:
Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words,
and say unto them,
The LORD shall roar from on high,
and utter his voice from his holy habitation;
he shall mightily roar upon his habitation;
he shall give a shout,
as they that tread the grapes,
against all the inhabitants of the earth.

Vs 23 would cover your America.


Not did accomplish. But will accomplish.
None of that has happened yet.

The one after this is the iron, a revised Rome, if Rome has to be revived then it has to have fallen. This part of the brass is past, both Christ and Peter are in those verses, so is 70 AD


Has not happened yet.

Yes it has.

No! It says the Beast ends the daily sacrifice, not Christ.
Trying to interject Christ here is to call him the Beast.
Has not happened yet. This is Mid Trib, as per Daniel. You are still trying to make the 70th Week part historical and cannot.

Actually it is all past ending with Stephen being killed (the abomination that causes desolation, in that had they listened they (might)not have been exiled) and most likely the power of the Holy people was when the vision was given to Peter to take the gospel to the Gentiles, these two events cover four chapters in Acts, if you think these are unimportant events think again. That stills leaves the 5 & 6 th trumps as covering 42 months, the time for the first 4 trumps has no given times, most likely a very short time or part of the birth pangs.

They hate anything with God or Christ attached to it in any form.
Blasphemy of the Church, Core what are you doing? True the leaders need some education and that will come to them but you are also including all memebers of that Church in your statement, and you call yourself a saint, one who is supposed to pray for others not pass judgement.

Everything in the Statue and Beasts are Mystery Babylon.
John and Stephen were not killed by the Woman.

Were they saints or martyrs of Jesus, it was the Jews who killed them, not Rome.

I would have to dig up the maps and such.
Around 1100, if memory serves me correctly.
It fell as an Empire. But not as an entity.

The RCC hasn't fallen so how could Rome, they are just using different control methods.

That does not destroy Jerusalem.
Read on. You will most assuredly see Jerusalem is still there and function after this event in Zec.

La:2:15:
All that pass by clap their hands at thee;
they hiss and wag their head at the daughter of Jerusalem,
saying,
Is this the city that men call The perfection of beauty,
The joy of the whole earth?
La:2:16:
All thine enemies have opened their mouth against thee:
they hiss and gnash the teeth:
they say,
We have swallowed her up:
certainly this is the day that we looked for;
we have found,
we have seen it.


Zep:2:15:
This is the rejoicing city that dwelt carelessly,
that said in her heart,
I am,
and there is none beside me:
how is she become a desolation,
a place for beasts to lie down in!
every one that passeth by her shall hiss,
and wag his hand.

Surely I don't have to provide the versethat say Jesus is the bridegroom.
Re:18:23:
And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee;
and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee:
for thy merchants were the great men of the earth;
for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.



It opens up. Divides. what on each side is not destroyed, just moved.
If you say so, that still won't stop the wagging of toungs when people see what has happened to her. Then tere is also the 1/10 that falls when the two witnesses are resurrected;
Re:11:13:
And the same hour was there a great earthquake,
and the tenth part of the city fell,
and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand:
and the remnant were affrighted,
and gave glory to the God of heaven.



So? Jerusalem is not swallowed.
As said, read on in the chapter. Jerusalem is still there.
But never will a sinner enter there. In Revelations 11 Jerusalem is called 'spiritually Sodom and Egypt', now when Satan has control of this ground why would the Scripture still refer to this city as being associated with God, which Jerusalem is?

As for the Ezekiel verses.
??


Again, Jerusalem is most assuredly still there.
Babylon wll never rise again, nobody will ever be of those who would want to kill any saints, yet you say at the end of the thousand years there will be many who people who want to do just that. Once you see a flaw in your logic you might be able to move foreward.

OK.
Your own verses show you are wrong. Jerusalem is most assuredly not destroyed to never be inhabited again.
Christ builds the temple, He alone.

And the NJ does not descend, if that is what you are getting at.
Why would I have done a 180, NJ is after Judgement Day, 1000+years after the first day of TDOTL. When the Angel and John are viewing this event are the alone on a barren world?


Sorry this took so long but it cannot be rushed without introducing incomplete answers, even now most are not complete but some paths are now opened to discussion, some new paths I have yet to cover, for instance, Christ says two swords are enough for now, one is His, the other is given to the governments of the nations to control evil people. This is within that nation and as with any power it can be abused, once the sword of the nations is used to cause something evil then these 'servants of God' have abused their authority, much like the second seal, the sword is no longer used to keep peace it is now used to take peace away. When we get this far in our talks I will give you the verse references ( as a kindness to me when you say things like 'keep reading' it will save me a few moments if you just post the verse), if you want to look these up first it has to do with the word 'shepherd' and the revelant verses usually have have the word 'woe' or a description of the shepherd no longer caring for the flock but more for themselves. Really quite an interesting set of verses that I have discussed with others after our last 'bout'.

Take care Core, later.

[CoreIssue]

Hi MHz,
Originally Posted by CoreIssue
Wrong. You have been shown the demon enters a human. The human is the FP. They demon is the FP. They are the FP.
Just as with the AC. The demon plus the human is the king. The demon entering a new human makes him the king that was via the demon.

You do know "AC" is a term never used in Revelations, right
Yes.
So Satan brings a human out of the pit,
No, he does not. There is no resurrection of those in the Pit until the White Throne.
The 6th Bowl clearly shows the FP is a man with a demon in him. You cannot simply dismiss that fact.
how many other men has Satan resurrected? Zero, he does not have that power. Satan can give power and authority to one of his fallen angels though;

No, he cannot. The fallen angels are bound until the White Throne per Jude.
Re:13:4:
And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast:
and they worshipped the beast,
saying, Who is like unto the beast?
who is able to make war with him?
There are TWO Beasts. This refers to the First Beast. But the Second Beast rises from the Pit, not the First.

It does not say that.
Along with does not say when they meet the Beast.

Re:17:12:
And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings,
which have received no kingdom as yet;
but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
Re:17:13:
These have one mind,
and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

Really, these verses say just that, no kingdoms untill they spend one hour with the beast that Satan releases from the pit. This meeting has to take place before 'the toes' can give their support, which would include what people in those 10 kingdoms can give.

So are you saying the beast has already given these 10 men kingdoms (the current EU)? It is a yet to be event

I am saying the EU exists now and will BECOME the restored Roman Empire by the hand and power of the AC.
Just as Alexander took the Greek Confederation and turned it into an Empire.
It does not say the Beast gives them their kingdom. It says they receive their kingdoms and the AC receives his. No demand of being at the same moment in time.

Most assuredly the countries are already here. Those kings, not the kingdoms, are what are stated.
It says they did not exist at the time of John. But at the time of the AC they will. And when he receives his power they will receive theirs. Be that being appointed by the AC, or whatever, the countries already exist because the AC arises from those countries.
He cannot arise from what does not exist.
Daniel says the AC arises from the Toes and from the 3rd Beast.
It is the False Prophet that comes from these 10 kingdoms.
No. It is the AC. The king rises from the Ten. The FP is a priest, not a king.

Da:7:8:
I considered the horns,
and, behold,
there came up among them another little horn,
before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots:
and,
behold,
in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man,
and a mouth speaking great things.
Yes, the AC and FP are both men. Men with demons.
The AC has the demon of the king who was. He is fully in power from the first Seal, as king.
The FP is his priest. His demon rises at Mid, in the 2th Woe within the 6th Trumpet.
Two men with two demons. Satan in the statue satan. 3 evil spirits in 3 bodies. Clearly stated in the 6th Bowl.

Takes control of three of the ten kingdoms.
That is the AC, First Seal. Not the FP.
Da:7:21:
I beheld,
and the same horn made war with the saints,
and prevailed against them;

The Seals show the AC is already killing saints before Mid.
The saints in the above, and below, are the two witnesses although the ones from here have to be in there also
Nope. They are the Trib saints. Those under the alter and before the Throne in multitudes.
You have zero verses backing that claim.
(Da:11:33:
And they that understand among the people shall instruct many:
yet they shall fall by the sword,
and by flame,
by captivity,
and by spoil,
many days.);
Not the Two Witnesses

Da:7:24:
And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise:
and another shall rise after them;
and he shall be diverse from the first,
and he shall subdue three kings.
Da:7:25:
And he shall speak great words against the most High,
and shall wear out the saints of the most High,
and think to change times and laws:
and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Yes. The AC. The king who was, is not and shall be the 8th.
The FP is not a king. He is a priest.

Not the city. Not the empire.
They destroy the RCC who is in Rome and the Harlot.
Did you know all Jews (except the 144,000) were prophecised to die during Satan's 42 months? Would that be consistant with being destroyed?
2/3 die. Not all. At the hand of the false shephard.
When Christ descends, he gathers the surviving Jews out of the nations and those that survived in Israel.
The 144,000 are in one place of protection for the full time of the AC.
Not they, but he.
The AC arises from the restored Ten Toe Empire. That is the EU/Old Roman Empire lands. Greece is a part of that.
He is the one who makes the treaty and breaks it Mid 70th Week, taking away the sacrifices.
Perfect match up.
Rome is the physical aspect of Mystery Babylon. Mystery Babylon is the combination of all the Empires of the Statue, as shown in the description of the Beast's body.

She rides the beast, she is a city', the scarlet beast is the red dragon, her father;
She is a city and a religion. She is Rome and the RCC, the religion of Rome.

Your verses jump all over the place. Trying to link together what is not the same thing.
The dragon of Revelations gives this beast it's power;
Re:13:2:
And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard,
and his feet were as the feet of a bear,
and his mouth as the mouth of a lion:
and the dragon gave him his power,
and his seat,
and great authority.
The AC and his kingdom. Not the FP.
To be totally correct it would be the Vatican City, not Rome, that would be destroyed
Pagan Rome plus the RCC is Rome.

Which all falls in the 7th Bowl when Rome is destroyed.
Destroyed never to be rebuilt or lived in again. Jerusalem most assuredly is rebuilt and lived in.
Your Isaiah verses are not dealing with the 7th Bowl destruction of Revelation. And not Rome.
That is not Jerusalem being talked about.
Those lands will be reinhabited. Rome will not be.
Isa:34:6:
The sword of the LORD is filled with blood,
it is made fat with fatness,
and with the blood of lambs and goats,
with the fat of the kidneys of rams:
for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah,
and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.

Bozrah
Southwest Jordan* (just north of Petra)
http://www.divineintervention.ws/Chr...erenceMaps.htm (http://www.divineintervention.ws/ChristianResources/ReferenceMaps/ReferenceMaps.htm)


Idumea
Just west of the Dead Sea,
http://www.fsmitha.com/h1/map24jud.htm

Isa:34:7:
And the unicorns shall come down with them,
and the bullocks with the bulls;
and their land shall be soaked with blood,
and their dust made fat with fatness.
Isa:34:8:
For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance,
and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Isa:34:9:
And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch,
and the dust thereof into brimstone,
and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
Isa:34:10:
It shall not be quenched night nor day;
the smoke thereof shall go up for ever:
from generation to generation it shall lie waste;
none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

No mention of Rome here

That is not the 7th Bowl issue. It is not Israel either.
2/3 of the world's population die in the Trib. Many nations are laid waste. But many also are repopulated in the MK.
But not Rome. Not the city of the 7th Bowl, the Harlot. It is never inhabited again.
I do not understand why you keep insisting it is Jerusalem. It clearly says it is never inhabited again while Jerusalem is clearly stated to be Christ's city and inhabited.
The 7th Bowl in Revelation describes Rome. You cannot make Isaiah the 7th Bowl, the Woman, the 7 Hills or any such of the issues laid out in Revelation.


Originally Posted by CoreIssue
Hey MHz,

Giving prophetic evidence to prove who is is not the same thing as preaching the Gospel. They were not Christians and did not preach Jesus.
They preached God, from whom the prophetic promises came, and Mosaic Law.
They did not die for Jesus. They did not accept Jesus until he entered Paradise and peached to him.

Please give me the exact verse you are referencing for this subject, from whatever translation best suits your POV, the one I have has the two references 'saints' and 'martyrs of Jesus', both John the Baptist and Stephen were from the second reference even though John was a prophet sent by God he was the witness to Jesus. The two witnesses in Revelations are also associated with Jesus;

John and Stephen were but two men. Rome was responsible for the deaths of 10s or hundreds of millions.
Jerusalem never killed that many saints. And the OT saints did not preach Jesus.
Jerusalem is not in the Beasts. It is not in the Statue. It is not in the Ten Toes. But the Woman most assuredly is in all of them.
You are disregarding evidence after evidence that tells you it is not Jerusalem.
Re:11:3:
And I will give power unto my two witnesses,
and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days,
clothed in sackcloth.

Future. Has not happened yet. But they will be killed by the New Romans.
What prophet has Rome killed?
Peter and Paul were executed in the city of Rome. Other apostles died in Roman provinces.
They were all most assuredly prophets. And those with the gift of prophecy also died at the hands of Rome.
There was only John (Jesus being much more than a prophet and in reallity the Romans never plotted His death)and the Jews killed him, not the Romans;

Not correct. Paul and Peter died in the city of Rome by the command of the Emporer.
Re:18:24:
And in her was found the blood of prophets,
and of saints,
and of all that were slain upon the earth.

According to Scripture this is who is guilty of the above deeds;

Rome. Millions died in the arendas and circuses. Millions died in the Inquisition. All by Rome.
M't:23:34:
Wherefore,
behold,
I send unto you prophets,
and wise men,
and scribes:
and some of them ye shall kill and crucify;
and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues,
and persecute them from city to city:

M't:23:37:
O Jerusalem,
Jerusalem,
thou that killest the prophets,
and stonest them which are sent unto thee,
how often would I have gathered thy children together,
even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings,
and ye would not!

Yes. But this is talking about Jerusalem, not the Woman or any of the issues laid out in Revelation.
You are trying to merge two separate issues into one.
Jersulem is never called Mystery Babylon. Daniel lays out Mystery Babyon. Jerusalem is not to be found there.

To them that was about God. Lord is a title of God.
Even in anticipating Christ's Coming they debated who he was. And to many how he came was neither what they expected or wanted.

None of the prophets who wrote about Him coming were alive except John the Baptist. Not one word is said about the prophets ever debating, the ones who did debate who He was were obviously not saints, all saints were be in agreement on this point.
John the Baptist did not write any book of the Bible.
It does not say who wrote about him prophetically died. It says those who preached Jesus. The OT saints did not preach Jesus.
But the millions of NT saints who died at the hands of Rome most assuredly did.

It says the one killed by the Woman, not every saint killed by whomever.

It also says saints were raised by Christ at His resurrection, in the way you define saint it can be all of Isreal that believed in God, but that didn't happen then did it? There are about 26 'major prophets' in the OT, that number can be called many. Today you like to call all believers 'saints', not a very humble position in my view when there is also the terms, believer and those that fear thy name, yet these two terms lose meaning and suddenly there are only saints. The two witnesses are certainly saints, you know with authority and the power that comes with authority. If all believers in Christ are saints then they are also saints without any authority, there is no such thing as a saint without authority similar to what the Apostles could do as a sign that they were 'approved by God'. If you call yourself a saint show me that you are by healing an amputated limb for somebody, if you can't then I will still accept you as a believer and one that fears His name, the same group I am from.

Saints who were alive and died at the time of Christ were raised, as was Lazarus. Not resurrected, as Christ was.
The Bible calls all believers saints. OT and NT. But it does not call OT saints preachers of Jesus.
The did not fear the name of Jesus because they did not even know his name, then.
Wow! You sound all Catholic or Orthodox with this saints must have miracle powers stuff.
Read the letters to the curches. Read the churches of Revelation.
Saint means one set apart for God. All believers are set apart for God, powerful or not. And all saints have a Gift of the Holy Spirit per the Bible. Not restricted to what you are trying to limit it to here.
Saint's are not special believers. All believers are saints, some with extra special roles to fulfil.

Wrong. The verse is about any saint. Not just prophets and specially annointed.
Jerusalem killed no saints from 70 AD on. But Rome most assuredly killed tens or hundreds of millions of saints. Far more than Jerusalem ever killed in the OT.
Jersualem killed less than 100 saints by Biblical indications. Rome, again, killed 10s or 100s of millions. Over 50 million in the Inquisition alone.

Again your defination of saint is premature to your current standing, when you are with Christ in the camp of the saints when Satan is about to be destroyed I will most certainly agree that you are now a saint, untill then I don't believe you defination fits in whth what Scripture calls a saint.

That is just down right flatly none Biblical.
Go here (http://www.biblegateway.com/) and search saint. Now tell me all those people were running around healing everyone. That every one could heal and such.
If you mean everyone that has a gift, then indeed all Church believers are saints, for all have a gift. Every last one.
I never said it was. But giving verses about nations nations and lands near Israel, that get depopulated, but repopulated in the MK, has zero value as showing who Mystery Babylon is when the Woman gets wiped out to never be populated again.
Apples and oranges comparisons.

That would have to mean 100% of the land is restored, if two small portions are set aside (like where the bones of Ezekiel 39 are buried) then these places are not inhabitated or restored to what the places the living waters reach. It is for a remberance, Satan still has one more appearance a thousand years in the future from when the bones are there to be gathered.
All of Israel is restored, as are other lands. But Babylon, the land, and Rome, will never rise again from their destruction.

Christ is God in the flesh. These three were God and there was no flesh.
Verses about his divinity in the OT does not make him Christ in the OT.
And he most assuredly was born under Rome. Israel was a conquered nation.

Yet every book has some words about what is a yet to be event, done by Christ
That has nothing to do with Christ in the OT.
Most assuredly his First and Second Comings, his MK rule and his place in eternity were future to the OT and some still future to now.
The Second person of the Trinity, Christ, is in his glorified flesh for eternity. The Father and Holy Spirit remain spirit for eternity.
But there was no Christ, God in human flesh, until the Incarnation.

Which means nothing since Mystery Babylon is not about a physical land.
And most assuredly Neb is the Beast with the wings. The one with the wings ripped off is still Babylon, but not Neb.
And Daniels says Neb is the Head of God.

True but the beast (either one) in Revelations has no wings, so it is based on the other beasts, don't forget how Neb's kingdom ended (in relation to having faith in God);
Da:4:37:
Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven,
all whose works are truth,
and his ways judgment:
and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.

(update during review before posting, Neb would be the lion part)
So what on the wings? The First Beast is a composite of all 4. It has aspects of each. Showing it is the mature Mystery Babylon.
One head of the First Beast represents Neb.
You forget the Beast gets its identify from Babylon. And the statue is the image of the First Beast. Remember old Neb's gold statue of himself?
Now, do you see the First Beast of Daniel in Revelation? All aspects of the Statue and Beasts are in the First Beast.

Yes. Out of means the 4th Beast ends with the first kind.
And again, the statue is only about one Brass kingdom and one king. You cannot find the 4 in the Statue description.
Neither can you find the two in the silver nor the two in the iron.
Silver, Medo-Pesia, a twin kinged Empire. One Mede King and one Persian King. Most assuredly I can find two kings.
And post assuredly two in the iron. John states a king who is, being the Roman Empire at his moment in time, and one who would come next. Another Roman.
Rome most assuredly split into to two Romes.
Chapter 8 says 4 more kingdoms after Alex, even the beast that represents the brass has four heads, Alex being the body of the beast and the four heads are the next four kingdoms to rule over Jerusalem;

But they are not listed in the Statue. And they are not called Beasts.
The 4th Beast is none of them, but Rome.
Da:7:6:
After this I beheld,
and lo another,
like a leopard,
which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl;
the beast had also four heads;
and dominion was given to it.
But one king and one kingdom, composed of 4 unified.

And this is mentioned because the AC will rise out of the Ten, of which one is Greece, who was part of the Brass and one of the four.
The Ten Toes deal with the geographical area of the Empire. This deals with with where the AC will specifically arise from.
Either way, Jerusalem is neither.
No it deals with the 10 most corrupt men in the entire world.
No. It says the little horn will rise out of the Ten. Not one word of the ten most corrupt men in the world.
Again. The legs, Rome, collapsed into Ten Empires. A non debatable historical fact.
They will remerge. As is reality today in the EU. Out of that merger will rise the king who was, is not and will be. And as stated, will be one of the 5 who were.
Not a resurrected man. But the demon of a man in a new man, being the 8th king.

Rome was not within the 4. Rome ruled the 4.
Rome was never ruled over by any of the 4.
When Satan arrives it won't only be Rome that is ruled over, all nations will be affected,
The AC will be ruling the kingdom 3.5 years before Satan is cast down.
God has already willed it to be so, thanks to the Jews wanting to kill Jeremiah;
Jer:24:9:
Never said otherwise. The whole earth will suffer.
But that still does not make Jerusalem Mystery Babylon.

Not did accomplish. But will accomplish.
None of that has happened yet.

The one after this is the iron, a revised Rome, if Rome has to be revived then it has to have fallen. This part of the brass is past, both Christ and Peter are in those verses, so is 70 AD
No. 70th Week is future. Christ died almost 40 years earlier, at the end of the 69th Week. Not in the 70th.
We already covered the grammar of that before. But here you go again trying to change the meaning of 'after' again.

No! It says the Beast ends the daily sacrifice, not Christ.
Trying to interject Christ here is to call him the Beast.
Has not happened yet. This is Mid Trib, as per Daniel. You are still trying to make the 70th Week part historical and cannot.

Actually it is all past ending with Stephen being killed (the abomination that causes desolation, in that had they listened they (might)not have been exiled) and most likely the power of the Holy people was when the vision was given to Peter to take the gospel to the Gentiles, these two events cover four chapters in Acts, if you think these are unimportant events think again. That stills leaves the 5 & 6 th trumps as covering 42 months, the time for the first 4 trumps has no given times, most likely a very short time or part of the birth pangs.
Again, we covered the linquistics of the prince and I showed you the meaning makes it impossible for the second prince to be Christ.
Not to mention you are totally non-literal on the 70th Week, with nothing but theory on what you believe.

They hate anything with God or Christ attached to it in any form.
Blasphemy of the Church, Core what are you doing? True the leaders need some education and that will come to them but you are also including all memebers of that Church in your statement, and you call yourself a saint, one who is supposed to pray for others not pass judgement.
There is nothing Church about the Woman or her associates.
You have Catholicism or Orthodox in your background, don't you? They get all hyper about the Woman being Rome and try to blame Jerusalem.

Everything in the Statue and Beasts are Mystery Babylon.
John and Stephen were not killed by the Woman.
Were they saints or martyrs of Jesus, it was the Jews who killed them, not Rome.
They do not define the saints killed.
Rome, pagan and Catholic killed millions upon millions.

I would have to dig up the maps and such.
Around 1100, if memory serves me correctly.
It fell as an Empire. But not as an entity.

The RCC hasn't fallen so how could Rome, they are just using different control methods.
Pagan Rome fell.
But you prove my point. Rome, itself, has not fallen, thus, to date is not a widow or suffering woe.
Israel was a widow from the land for almost 2,000 years and has suffered greatly.

That does not destroy Jerusalem.
Read on. You will most assuredly see Jerusalem is still there and function after this event in Zec.

La:2:15:
All that pass by clap their hands at thee;
they hiss and wag their head at the daughter of Jerusalem,
saying,
Is this the city that men call The perfection of beauty,
The joy of the whole earth?
La:2:16:
All thine enemies have opened their mouth against thee:
they hiss and gnash the teeth:
they say,
We have swallowed her up:
certainly this is the day that we looked for;
we have found,
we have seen it.
Conquered, not destroyed.


Zep:2:15:
This is the rejoicing city that dwelt carelessly,
that said in her heart,
I am,
and there is none beside me:
how is she become a desolation,
a place for beasts to lie down in!
every one that passeth by her shall hiss,
and wag his hand.

Syria, not Israel.
Surely I don't have to provide the versethat say Jesus is the bridegroom.

Of course not, concerning the Church.
Re:18:23:
And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee;
and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee:
for thy merchants were the great men of the earth;
for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
This is about Rome. Nothing to do with the Church.
And it does not make this the Bride of Christ, the NJ.
Remember, the NJ is in Heaven, not on the earth.

It opens up. Divides. what on each side is not destroyed, just moved.
If you say so, that still won't stop the wagging of toungs when people see what has happened to her. Then tere is also the 1/10 that falls when the two witnesses are resurrected;
The Two are at Mid. The splitting is at the Second Coming.
The harm to Israel ends and Jerusalem will be the City of Christ's rule, where the Temple is, for 1,000 years.
So, very much not destroyed never to rise again.
Re:11:13:
And the same hour was there a great earthquake,
and the tenth part of the city fell,
and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand:
and the remnant were affrighted,
and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Which leaves 9/10ths. And more is destroyed later in the latter Trib. But never all is destoyed. And what is destroyed is rebuilt, better than before.

So? Jerusalem is not swallowed.
As said, read on in the chapter. Jerusalem is still there.
But never will a sinner enter there. In Revelations 11 Jerusalem is called 'spiritually Sodom and Egypt', now when Satan has control of this ground why would the Scripture still refer to this city as being associated with God, which Jerusalem is?
Which is not Mystery Babylon and is not MK.
Because it is God's eternal city. Even was when Rome sacked it in 70 AD and Jews did not control it for almost 2,000 years.

Again, Jerusalem is most assuredly still there.
Babylon wll never rise again, nobody will ever be of those who would want to kill any saints, yet you say at the end of the thousand years there will be many who people who want to do just that. Once you see a flaw in your logic you might be able to move foreward.

Where does it say the MK is sin free? Never said.
In fact it says there will be evil people born, there will be birth and there will be death.
You are trying to put the NJ and no earthly sinful flesh into the MK on the New Earth.
We have discussed that before and I showed you the verses showing sin and so on then.

OK.
Your own verses show you are wrong. Jerusalem is most assuredly not destroyed to never be inhabited again.
Christ builds the temple, He alone.

False. Jerusalem is inhabited and maintained by the Jews.
No where does it say Christ rebuilds the Temple himself.

And the NJ does not descend, if that is what you are getting at.
Why would I have done a 180, NJ is after Judgement Day, 1000+years after the first day of TDOTL. When the Angel and John are viewing this event are the alone on a barren world?
Hmmm. I thought you talked about a sinless New Earth and such.
OK.

Sorry this took so long but it cannot be rushed without introducing incomplete answers, even now most are not complete but some paths are now opened to discussion, some new paths I have yet to cover, for instance, Christ says two swords are enough for now, one is His, the other is given to the governments of the nations to control evil people. This is within that nation and as with any power it can be abused, once the sword of the nations is used to cause something evil then these 'servants of God' have abused their authority, much like the second seal, the sword is no longer used to keep peace it is now used to take peace away. When we get this far in our talks I will give you the verse references ( as a kindness to me when you say things like 'keep reading' it will save me a few moments if you just post the verse), if you want to look these up first it has to do with the word 'shepherd' and the revelant verses usually have have the word 'woe' or a description of the shepherd no longer caring for the flock but more for themselves. Really quite an interesting set of verses that I have discussed with others after our last 'bout'.

Take care Core, later.
OK. But you are making no headway with me. All I see are suppostions based on theories.
I imagine you feel the same in return.
We are so many miles apart. I am very literal and rules of grammar based. You are not.
Who is the Dragon?
Who is the First Beast"
Who is the Second Beast?
What doe the 3 bodies and 3 evil spirits of the 6th Bowl mean?
Do you believe Jerusalem is totally destroyed, never to rise again?
Just quick answers. I want to get a feel here.

[MHz]

Hi Core, Nice post, warning some answers(in the next post) are going to take you away from the imediate subject.
OK. But you are making no headway with me. All I see are suppostions based on theories.
I imagine you feel the same in return.
We are so many miles apart. I am very literal and rules of grammar based. You are not.
Who is the Dragon?
Who is the First Beast"
Who is the Second Beast?
What doe the 3 bodies and 3 evil spirits of the 6th Bowl mean?
Do you believe Jerusalem is totally destroyed, never to rise again?
Just quick answers. I want to get a feel here.
I can certainly feel your sincerity in what you believe and you are never at a loss for words (a compliment) but we have both come to Christ (through the words of the Holy Bible)from different paths. Scripture tells me to question all things, that I take it to the position of why a jot is where it is might be excessive. Sometimes that position does matter. That you still allow me speak is headway, I'm not a lost sheep Core, nor have I been sent, any marks on my hands have been gotten at my friend's house.
I don't feel that way at all, you are one of the most informitive person(s) I've ever chatted with, that we don't see the same things is a very minor thing. What either of us has that will turn out to be truth cannot effect what will be.

Who is the Dragon?

Satan, cast to the Earth at the sound of the 5th trump.

Who is the First Beast"
The effects of the 5th trump, totally angelic in nature who has 10 men from the earth who are supportive of it, for their own greed. These 10 men will have control of governments of all nations (in that a kingdom can have more than one nation). Timeframe 5 months.

Who is the Second Beast?
The one who comes to control 3 of the 10 kingdoms established in the time of the 5th trump.
The same beast of the 5th trump is now king for the 6th trump. Satan being the king for the 5th (but not exercising power, (personally)that will come after the thousand years)

What doe the 3 bodies and 3 evil spirits of the 6th Bowl mean?
Good question, not one I have a ready answer for. Next post I will try to expand (it has to do with Satan's kingdom becoming/going into darkness.


Do you believe Jerusalem is totally destroyed, never to rise again?

Core my beloved brother please, please understand me when I reference this issue. Babylon represents a 'way of life', that is what will never arise again. Buildings can be broken down and then rebuilt, not a big deal really. Anything Babylon stands for is gone at that time, foreever. Don't forget Daniel saying that the 'glorious land' will be taken over and the FP will attempt to convince some he is God. Don't bet that this sin will take 3 1/2 years before there is a responce from Heaven, it will be quick, it will be sure and it will be total.

Babylon can be Jerusalem when Satan owns it, same as it can be Sodom when they are killing witnesses and the beast has to be there as that is who is allowed to kill them.

Later.

[CoreIssue]

Hi MHz,

We never send anyone away who is willing to discuss and answer. Even when we disagree.

Who is the Dragon?

Satan, cast to the Earth at the sound of the 5th trump.
There we agree. I would just refine it to say in the First Woe contained in the 5th Trumpet.

He is the False First Person of the Trinity. The False Father.
Who is the First Beast"
The effects of the 5th trump, totally angelic in nature who has 10 men from the earth who are supportive of it, for their own greed. These 10 men will have control of governments of all nations (in that a kingdom can have more than one nation). Timeframe 5 months.

There we part company in totality.

The First Beast is a man, indwelt by a demon, who is the 8th godking of Mystery Babylon. And as long as we disagree on that point, discussion on the rest is pretty irrelavant.

He is the False Second Person of the Trinity. The False Christ.
Who is the Second Beast?
The one who comes to control 3 of the 10 kingdoms established in the time of the 5th trump.

Again, we totally part company. He is a man with a demon who is the High Priest of the AC. The False Third Person of the Trinity. The False Holy Spirit.
The same beast of the 5th trump is now king for the 6th trump. Satan being the king for the 5th (but not exercising power, (personally)that will come after the thousand years)
So, Satan becomes the FP?

Your non-Trinitarian beliefs are showing here. As you cannot see God as three you cannot see three in the False Trinity.
What doe the 3 bodies and 3 evil spirits of the 6th Bowl mean?
Good question, not one I have a ready answer for. Next post I will try to expand (it has to do with Satan's kingdom becoming/going into darkness.
That will take some mighty fine verses to turn a statue and two men into nations.

It is further proof they are 3 single individuals.
Do you believe Jerusalem is totally destroyed, never to rise again?

Core my beloved brother please, please understand me when I reference this issue. Babylon represents a 'way of life', that is what will never arise again.
It represents an economic, political and religious way of life contained within a physical nation or Empire.

We see both the physical element, via the Statue, and the rest, via how the kings and people of Mystery Babylon live.
Buildings can be broken down and then rebuilt, not a big deal really. Anything Babylon stands for is gone at that time, foreever.
Agree. But the 7th Bowl destroys a physical place.
Don't forget Daniel saying that the 'glorious land' will be taken over and the FP will attempt to convince some he is God.
Not the FP, but the AC, with the FP acting as his High Priest. The Dragon is not the FP, at that time, but the dragon statue he indwells.
Don't bet that this sin will take 3 1/2 years before there is a responce from Heaven, it will be quick, it will be sure and it will be total.
Immediate in the beginning of the Bowls, but 3.5 years to complete.
Babylon can be Jerusalem when Satan owns it, same as it can be Sodom when they are killing witnesses and the beast has to be there as that is who is allowed to kill them.

But it is not. Babylon is clearly defined in the Statue. Jerusalem is never part of it.

Yes, the religion of Mystery Babylon can extend beyond its borders, and will. But it is a physical kingdom.

When you go non-literal, you take a burden on the give literal proof to back you claims. And that you cannot do for your interpretations of Mystery Babylon.

The religious structure, ecomonics and lands of Mystery Babylon are indeed literally declared by Daniel.

What you are describing is not.
Later.
Later.

[Jessie]

dont want to derail your conversation but,

Core you said, "babylon is clearly defined in the statue"

could you explain???

[CoreIssue]

dont want to derail your conversation but,

Core you said, "babylon is clearly defined in the statue"

could you explain???

See if this (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/index.php?pid=1) helps.

[MHz]

Hi Core,
Hi MHz,
We never send anyone away who is willing to discuss and answer. Even when we disagree.
That's good.

There we agree. I would just refine it to say in the First Woe contained in the 5th Trumpet.
He is the False First Person of the Trinity. The False Father.
These are some of the verses I see as speaking of Satan;
Re:9:1:
And the fifth angel sounded,
and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth:
and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Re:9:2:
And he opened the bottomless pit;
and there arose a smoke out of the pit,
as the smoke of a great furnace;
and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

Satan opens the pit, what is released is angelic in nature, the locusts are how the beast appears (much like the four bound angels manifest into an 200mil army ). Satan is the king over the locusts (the beast from the pit);
Re:9:11:
And they had a king over them,
which is the angel of the bottomless pit,
whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon,
but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

The angel is the star that fell that has the key that opens the pit. If one was to say this king is what has been released then the beast from the pit is a fallen angel, not a man who is called the AC.

I also think Satan is the 7th king in Revelations;
Re:17:10: And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

In this instance the 'short space' is the time given to the first woe, 5 months. What happens to the locusts at the end of the 5 months, do they just lay down or does something overcome them? Could that be the head wound?

There we part company in totality.
The First Beast is a man, indwelt by a demon, who is the 8th godking of Mystery Babylon. And as long as we disagree on that point, discussion on the rest is pretty irrelavant.
He is the False Second Person of the Trinity. The False Christ.
Why does this beast have to be from men and not a fallen angel? An unclean spirit comes out of the mouth of the dragon (Satan) and he is certainly angelic in nature. Fallen angels are bound in the pit (Jude), if the pit is unlocked then what is released is going to be angelic in nature not human. This angel gives authority to 10 men.
Well we agree that (it) is the 8th king, perhaps it is that I have never seen it referenced to as a man;
Re:11:7:
And when they shall have finished their testimony,
the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them,
and shall overcome them, and kill them.


Again, we totally part company. He is a man with a demon who is the High Priest of the AC. The False Third Person of the Trinity. The False Holy Spirit.

I don't have an issue with this being a man, he is the one who takes over 3 of the 10 kingdoms, but the first beast is also with him during his time. It would seem that the first beast is given 42 months so this man must be within that timeframe;
Re:13:11:
And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth;
and he had two horns like a lamb,
and he spake as a dragon.
Re:13:12:
And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him,
and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast,
whose deadly wound was healed.

Since you have two men, to my one, which man is in this verse;
2Th:2:3:
Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;
2Th:2:4:
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,
or that is worshipped;
so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
shewing himself that he is God.

So, Satan becomes the FP?
Gosh no, the FP comes after Satan;
2Th:2:9:
Even him,
whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

And he goes into the Lake of Fire at a different time than Satan;
Re:19:20:
And the beast was taken,
and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him,
with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast,
and them that worshipped his image.
These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Re:20:10:
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone,
where the beast and the false prophet are,
and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

I can count, three go to the Lake, two at Christ's return and the last when fire from God in Heaven comes to end his 'little season'.

Your non-Trinitarian beliefs are showing here. As you cannot see God as three you cannot see three in the False Trinity.

I believe in one God;

Joh:20:17:
Jesus saith unto her,
Touch me not;
for I am not yet ascended to my Father:
but go to my brethren,
and say unto them,
I ascend unto my Father,
and your Father;
and to my God,
and your God.

Re:21:3:
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying,
Behold,
the tabernacle of God is with men,
and he will dwell with them,
and they shall be his people,
and God himself shall be with them,
and be their God.

I believe in one Christ;

Re:21:9:
And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues,
and talked with me,
saying,
Come hither,
I will shew thee the bride,
the Lamb's wife.

Re:22:8:
And I John saw these things,
and heard them.
And when I had heard and seen,
I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Re:22:9:
Then saith he unto me,
See thou do it not:
for I am thy fellowservant,
and of thy brethren the prophets,
and of them which keep the sayings of this book:
worship God.
Re:22:10:
And he saith unto me,
Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book:
for the time is at hand.
Re:22:11:
He that is unjust,
let him be unjust still:
and he which is filthy,
let him be filthy still:
and he that is righteous,
let him be righteous still:
and he that is holy,
let him be holy still.
Re:22:12:
And,
behold,
I come quickly;
and my reward is with me,
to give every man according as his work shall be.
Re:22:13:
I am Alpha and Omega,
the beginning and the end,
the first and the last.

M't:17:5:
While he yet spake,
behold,
a bright cloud overshadowed them:
and behold a voice out of the cloud,
which said,
This is my beloved Son,
in whom I am well pleased;
hear ye him.

I believe in the Holy Spirit;

M't:12:31:
Wherefore I say unto you,
All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men:
but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
M't:12:32:
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man,
it shall be forgiven him:
but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him,
neither in this world,
neither in the world to come.

Joh:7:39:
(But this spake he of the Spirit,
which they that believe on him should receive:
for the Holy Ghost was not yet given;
because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Joh:20:22:
And when he had said this,
he breathed on them,
and saith unto them,
Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Joh:15:26:
But when the Comforter is come,
whom I will send unto you from the Father,
even the Spirit of truth,
which proceedeth from the Father,
he shall testify of me:

Joh:16:7:
Nevertheless I tell you the truth;
It is expedient for you that I go away:
for if I go not away,
the Comforter will not come unto you;
but if I depart,
I will send him unto you.

God, Christ and the Holy Spirit of God, three.


What doe the 3 bodies and 3 evil spirits of the 6th Bowl mean?
Satan had an unclean spirit way back in the Garden of Eden;
Joh:8:44:
Ye are of your father the devil,
and the lusts of your father ye will do.
He was a murderer from the beginning,
and abode not in the truth,
because there is no truth in him.
When he speaketh a lie,
he speaketh of his own:
for he is a liar,
and the father of it.

How he was able to get 1/3 of the Angels to follow him I have no idea, I would not imagine this is a small number by itself.
I also have no idea why a man would join them, that all three are doing things that offend God is not in question though and all three pay the price for that.

That will take some mighty fine verses to turn a statue and two men into nations.
The point I was trying to make was that the beast gives kingdoms to 10 men, what verse says one kingdom equals one nation. Neb's kingdom had power over how many nations? Alex's kingdom had power over how many nations?

When the kingdoms of the world are claimed to belong to God the Earth is in one kingdom, how many nations come to the feast of the tabernacles yearly?

Zec:14:16:
And it shall come to pass,
that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King,
the LORD of hosts,
and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec:14:19:
This shall be the punishment of Egypt,
and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

One kingdom and (maybe) 10 nations;
Zec:8:23:
Thus saith the LORD of hosts;
In those days it shall come to pass,
that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations,
even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew,
saying,
We will go with you:
for we have heard that God is with you.

It is further proof they are 3 single individuals.
I agree that there are three, just not that there is more than one man;
Da:2:43:
And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay,
they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men:
but they shall not cleave one to another,
even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Angelic is iron, clay is human, in this case it is unholy watchers. A partnership, not a marriage like before the flood.


It represents an economic, political and religious way of life contained within a physical nation or Empire.
Buying and selling come with the mark (the permission to do so), worship is manditory, and war is the method of dealing with those who appose them so a general agreement.

We see both the physical element, via the Statue, and the rest, via how the kings and people of Mystery Babylon live.
How are they different from the Gentiles in Jerusalem during the time the two witnesses lay dead in the street;
Re:11:9:
And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half,
and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Re:11:10:
And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them,
and make merry,
and shall send gifts one to another;
because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Would the gifts include any of the following;
Re:18:12:
The merchandise of gold,
and silver,
and precious stones,
and of pearls,
and fine linen,
and purple,
and silk,
and scarlet,
and all thyine wood,
and all manner vessels of ivory,
and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass,
and iron,
and marble,
Re:18:13:
And cinnamon,
and odours,
and ointments,
and frankincense,
and wine,
and oil,
and fine flour,
and wheat,
and beasts,
and sheep,
and horses,
and chariots,
and slaves,
and souls of men.

Agree. But the 7th Bowl destroys a physical place.

Babylon being just one, this is a worldwide event;
Zep:3:6:
I have cut off the nations:
their towers are desolate;
I made their streets waste,
that none passeth by:
their cities are destroyed,
so that there is no man,
that there is none inhabitant.
Zep:3:7:
I said,
Surely thou wilt fear me,
thou wilt receive instruction;
so their dwelling should not be cut off, howsoever I punished them:
but they rose early,
and corrupted all their doings.
Zep:3:8:
Therefore wait ye upon me,
saith the LORD,
until the day that I rise up to the prey:
for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms,
to pour upon them mine indignation,
even all my fierce anger:
for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.

Babylon is burned in one hour;
Re:18:15:
The merchants of these things,
which were made rich by her,
shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment,
weeping and wailing,
Re:18:16:
And saying,
Alas,
alas,
that great city,
that was clothed in fine linen,
and purple,
and scarlet,
and decked with gold,
and precious stones,
and pearls!
Re:18:17:
For in one hour so great riches is come to nought.
And every shipmaster,
and all the company in ships,
and sailors,
and as many as trade by sea,
stood afar off,


Not the FP, but the AC, with the FP acting as his High Priest. The Dragon is not the FP, at that time, but the dragon statue he indwells.
I fail to see the dragon in these verse;
Re:13:14:
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast;
saying to them that dwell on the earth,
that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword,
and did live.
Re:13:15:
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast,
that the image of the beast should both speak,
and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.


Immediate in the beginning of the Bowls, but 3.5 years to complete.
So that would mean 1260 days divided by 6 vials is about 7 months for each vial (minus the one hour it takes to destroy Babylon.

7 months to accomplish this;
Re:16:2:
And the first went,
and poured out his vial upon the earth;
and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast,
and upon them which worshipped his image.
(I assume this condition lasts the full time it takes to pour out all the vials. The ones that are given the mark, are they in Rome or in Jerusalem with the wicked one when he sits on a throne 2Th:2:4:)

7 months to accomplish this;
Re:16:3:
And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea;
and it became as the blood of a dead man:
and every living soul died in the sea.
(The blood of a dead man is no longer a liquid so could this be walked on?)

7 months to accomplish this;
Re:16:4:
And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters;
and they became blood.
Re:16:5:
And I heard the angel of the waters say,
Thou art righteous,
O Lord,
which art,
and wast,
and shalt be,
because thou hast judged thus.
Re:16:6:
For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets,
and thou hast given them blood to drink;
for they are worthy.
Re:16:7:
And I heard another out of the altar say,
Even so,
Lord God Almighty,
true and righteous are thy judgments.

7 months to accomplish this;
Re:16:8:
And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun;
and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
Re:16:9:
And men were scorched with great heat,
and blasphemed the name of God,
which hath power over these plagues:
and they repented not to give him glory.

(This is interesting, if the 4th is called a plague, the plural should also indicate the other vials are also plagues.)

7 months to accomplish this;
Re:16:10:
And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast;
and his kingdom was full of darkness;
and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
Re:16:11:
And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores,
and repented not of their deeds.

7 months to accomplish this;
Re:16:12:
And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates;
and the water thereof was dried up,
that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
Re:16:13:
And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon,
and out of the mouth of the beast,
and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

3 1/2 years doesn't seem to fit in with this verse;
Re:18:8:
Therefore shall her plagues come in one day,
death,
and mourning,
and famine;
and she shall be utterly burned with fire:
for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

The above verse seems to cover more than one vial, and the timeframe would seem to be a lot closer to 3 1/2 hours, not years.

Isa:10:17:
And the light of Israel shall be for a fire,
and his Holy One for a flame:
and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;

Zec:14:7:
But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD,
not day,
nor night:
but it shall come to pass,
that at evening time it shall be light.

Zep:1:18:
Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath;
but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy:
for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.


But it is not. Babylon is clearly defined in the Statue. Jerusalem is never part of it.

Yes, the religion of Mystery Babylon can extend beyond its borders, and will. But it is a physical kingdom.

When you go non-literal, you take a burden on the give literal proof to back you claims. And that you cannot do for your interpretations of Mystery Babylon.

The religious structure, ecomonics and lands of Mystery Babylon are indeed literally declared by Daniel.

What you are describing is not.

How often was the bridegrooms voice heard in Rome? The bride (His followers) certainly were after being chased out of Jerusalem. Oh wait, it say heard no more, that would be Jerusalem.

Later, I get to the post I missed next.

[CoreIssue]

Hi MHz,
There we agree. I would just refine it to say in the First Woe contained in the 5th Trumpet.
He is the False First Person of the Trinity. The False Father.
These are some of the verses I see as speaking of Satan;
Re:9:1:
And the fifth angel sounded,
and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth:
and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Yep. Satan cast down.
Re:9:2:
And he opened the bottomless pit;
and there arose a smoke out of the pit,
as the smoke of a great furnace;
and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

Satan opens the pit, what is released is angelic in nature,
Demons, not fallen angels.
the locusts are how the beast appears (much like the four bound angels manifest into an 200mil army ).
No. The Beast is one man. The locusts are many demons. The army is China.
Note angel in verse 13 does not demand angel, as in fallen. It means messenger, envoy or one who is sent. The term is not limited to 'angels.' And with jude saying they are bound I believe this is a mistranslation, here.
Satan is the king over the locusts (the beast from the pit);
Yes, Satan is king. No, the locusts are not the beast.
Re:9:11:
And they had a king over them,
which is the angel of the bottomless pit,
whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon,
but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

The angel is the star that fell that has the key that opens the pit.
Yes, Satan.
If one was to say this king is what has been released then the beast from the pit is a fallen angel, not a man who is called the AC.
A demon is released, who is the FP demon. The AC is never mentioned as connected to the Pit for his demon.
I also think Satan is the 7th king in Revelations;
Re:17:10: And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
No, the 7th is the Roman king to come, from the time of John. But is past history, now.
In this instance the 'short space' is the time given to the first woe, 5 months.
No. The First Woe is on the same 24 hour day as all the Woes.
What happens to the locusts at the end of the 5 months, do they just lay down or does something overcome them? Could that be the head wound?

It does not say where they go. But their special power ends.
No, the head wound means that king is dead. And he was dead before John.

There we part company in totality.
The First Beast is a man, indwelt by a demon, who is the 8th godking of Mystery Babylon. And as long as we disagree on that point, discussion on the rest is pretty irrelavant.
He is the False Second Person of the Trinity. The False Christ.
Why does this beast have to be from men and not a fallen angel?
Because the 6th Bowl, in example, shows he is a man with a demon in him. And Beast means vile man.
An unclean spirit comes out of the mouth of the dragon (Satan) and he is certainly angelic in nature.
But coming out of a physcial body, the Statue. As the AC and FP have demons in human bodies coming out of them.
Fallen angels are bound in the pit (Jude), if the pit is unlocked then what is released is going to be angelic in nature not human.
There is no release of fallen angels until the White Throne.
This angel gives authority to 10 men.

No. It says they get their kingdoms and authority and give it to the AC.
Well we agree that (it) is the 8th king, perhaps it is that I have never seen it referenced to as a man;
He is a king from the 5 who were. Most assuredly a man with a demon. Demons do not die.
Re:11:7:
And when they shall have finished their testimony,
the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them,
and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Mid, 2nd Woe in the 6th Trumpet. A demon ascends into the FP.

Again, we totally part company. He is a man with a demon who is the High Priest of the AC. The False Third Person of the Trinity. The False Holy Spirit.
I don't have an issue with this being a man, he is the one who takes over 3 of the 10 kingdoms,
The AC is the king, not the FP. And the 3 being taken over is already done.
The FP is a priest, not a king.
but the first beast is also with him during his time.
Godking and his priest. Just like Pagan Rome.
It would seem that the first beast is given 42 months so this man must be within that timeframe;

The AC has 7 years with 42 Satan enhanced in power.
Re:13:11:
And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth;
and he had two horns like a lamb,
and he spake as a dragon.
Re:13:12:
And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him,
and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast,
whose deadly wound was healed.

The priest works with and for the power of the AC as High Priest.
Since you have two men, to my one, which man is in this verse;
2Th:2:3:
Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;
2Th:2:4:
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,
or that is worshipped;
so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
shewing himself that he is God.

The AC.
So, Satan becomes the FP?
Gosh no, the FP comes after Satan;
OK. Just clarifying.

Your non-Trinitarian beliefs are showing here. As you cannot see God as three you cannot see three in the False Trinity.

I believe in one God;
God is uniplural. Elohim for God is uniplural.

I believe in one Christ;

Christ is not God in the flesh? Then what is he?

I believe in the Holy Spirit;
If not God, then what is he?

God, Christ and the Holy Spirit of God, three.
Three person who together are God. God is not a single person, but a union.
Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

What doe the 3 bodies and 3 evil spirits of the 6th Bowl mean?
Satan had an unclean spirit way back in the Garden of Eden;
Joh:8:44:
Ye are of your father the devil,
and the lusts of your father ye will do.
He was a murderer from the beginning,
and abode not in the truth,
because there is no truth in him.
When he speaketh a lie,
he speaketh of his own:
for he is a liar,
and the father of it.

How he was able to get 1/3 of the Angels to follow him I have no idea, I would not imagine this is a small number by itself.
I also have no idea why a man would join them, that all three are doing things that offend God is not in question though and all three pay the price for that.

That does not answer tghe question.
There are 3 bodies and 3 evil spirits there. What doe it mean?

That will take some mighty fine verses to turn a statue and two men into nations.
The point I was trying to make was that the beast gives kingdoms to 10 men,
That is never said.
It says the 10 are given kingdoms and power and they give those kingdoms and power to the AC.
what verse says one kingdom equals one nation. Neb's kingdom had power over how many nations? Alex's kingdom had power over how many nations?

Neb had one nation that had power over many nations. But each nation remained one nation.
When the kingdoms of the world are claimed to belong to God the Earth is in one kingdom, how many nations come to the feast of the tabernacles yearly?
Only those that attacked Jerusalem are required to go. The others are not.


It is further proof they are 3 single individuals.
I agree that there are three, just not that there is more than one man;
Beast means vile man. There are two. The 6th Bowl shows 2 men with a demon each.
Da:2:43:
And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay,
they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men:
but they shall not cleave one to another,
even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Angelic is iron, clay is human, in this case it is unholy watchers. A partnership, not a marriage like before the flood.

Never even hinted at in the Bible. Daniel says iron means a strong nation with strong people. Clay weak nations with weak people.
And fallen angels married no one. That could not produce children. Because the are in the Pit and they are not flesh, male or human.
There were Nephilem after the Flood as well.
It represents an economic, political and religious way of life contained within a physical nation or Empire.
Buying and selling come with the mark (the permission to do so), worship is manditory, and war is the method of dealing with those who appose them so a general agreement.
OK.
We see both the physical element, via the Statue, and the rest, via how the kings and people of Mystery Babylon live.
How are they different from the Gentiles in Jerusalem during the time the two witnesses lay dead in the street;

What is the point of that question? The influence of Mystery Babylon being world wide does not make the world physically Mystery Babylon.

Would the gifts include any of the following;

It appears you are trying to declare the whole world physical Babylon. Does not work.

Agree. But the 7th Bowl destroys a physical place.

Babylon being just one, this is a worldwide event;
Now you are reaching out to events that are not 7th Bowl and make them all one and the same. Does not work.
The earth is not wiped clean of people, leaving only the 144,000.
Not the FP, but the AC, with the FP acting as his High Priest. The Dragon is not the FP, at that time, but the dragon statue he indwells.
I fail to see the dragon in these verse;
Re:13:14:
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast;
saying to them that dwell on the earth,
that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword,
and did live.
Re:13:15:
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast,
that the image of the beast should both speak,
and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
The bold is the dragon and the Dragon.

Immediate in the beginning of the Bowls, but 3.5 years to complete.
So that would mean 1260 days divided by 6 vials is about 7 months for each vial (minus the one hour it takes to destroy Babylon.
There is no demand the Bowls are equal in length and that none can overlap.

The above verse seems to cover more than one vial, and the timeframe would seem to be a lot closer to 3 1/2 hours, not years.
No. There is no time demand as you are laying out here.
The 7th Trumpet is on day 1,261. 3.5 years later is the 7th Bowl. The bowls will proceed as God wishes inbetween.
You even throw in Second Coming verses at times.

But it is not. Babylon is clearly defined in the Statue. Jerusalem is never part of it.

Yes, the religion of Mystery Babylon can extend beyond its borders, and will. But it is a physical kingdom.

When you go non-literal, you take a burden on the give literal proof to back you claims. And that you cannot do for your interpretations of Mystery Babylon.

The religious structure, ecomonics and lands of Mystery Babylon are indeed literally declared by Daniel.

What you are describing is not.

How often was the bridegrooms voice heard in Rome?
During the Trib? Never. That is talking about human marriage, not Christ.
The bride (His followers) certainly were after being chased out of Jerusalem. Oh wait, it say heard no more, that would be Jerusalem.

The Bride is not in the Trib. The Bride is Church. The Wife of God is Israel.
Christ most assuredly comes to Jerusalem at the Second Coming and lives in Jerusalem with the Jews.
No way you are wiping out Jerusalem.
Later, I get to the post I missed next.

[MHz]

Hi Core,
The army is China.
Say WHAT???
If I didn't know better I would take this as a joke. Core if I was to take this kind of route I could say that right this very moment an army of 200mill is in that same area, not by the count of boots on the ground but by including those from where these came that support their actions, the support of the actual 'sword'. I seriously can't believe you believe China (a nation of men) is the army of the 6th trump. Do you even believe in Heaven, do you believe in angels, in this case four fallen ones that cause the deaths of 1/3 of man (that is from the whole of man, not some little area like the ME or EU) At 6 bill that is 2 bill that will die, from men. all men not just Christians from the inhabitants of the Earth. Since this is only after the first woe there are 37 months in which this will be accomplished, that is 1,801,801/day on average.
China, really;
Re:9:13:
And the sixth angel sounded,
and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
Re:9:14:
Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet,
Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
Re:9:15:
And the four angels were loosed,
which were prepared for an hour,
and a day,
and a month,
and a year,
for to slay the third part of men.
Re:9:16:
And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand:
and I heard the number of them.
Re:9:17:
And thus I saw the horses in the vision,
and them that sat on them,
having breastplates of fire,
and of jacinth,
and brimstone:
and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions;
and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
Re:9:18:
By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire,
and by the smoke,
and by the brimstone,
which issued out of their mouths.
Re:9:19:
For their power is in their mouth,
and in their tails:
for their tails were like unto serpents,
and had heads,
and with them they do hurt.
Re:9:20:
And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands,
that they should not worship devils,
and idols of gold,
and silver,
and brass,
and stone,
and of wood:
which neither can see,
nor hear,
nor walk:
Re:9:21:
Neither repented they of their murders,
nor of their sorceries,
nor of their fornication,
nor of their thefts.

Just how twisted do you have to be to read China in there, yhis literally reads angelic (bound=fallan, as holy watchers are only bound in their faith)

Now I do admire a strong hold on belief, but this is less admired than a sense of reason, the kings og the east are (HELLO) good guys, that vial only prepares a way for their journey;

Zec:8:20:
Thus saith the LORD of hosts;
It shall yet come to pass,
that there shall come people,
and the inhabitants of many cities:
Zec:8:21:
And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another,
saying,
Let us go speedily to pray before the LORD,
and to seek the LORD of hosts: I will go also.
Zec:8:22:
Yea,
many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem,
and to pray before the LORD.
Zec:8:23:
Thus saith the LORD of hosts;
In those days it shall come to pass,
that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations,
even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew,
saying,
We will go with you:
for we have heard that God is with you.

Isa:5:19:
That say,
Let him make speed,
and hasten his work,
that we may see it:
and let the counsel of the Holy One of Israel draw nigh and come,
that we may know it!
Isa:5:20:
Woe unto them that call evil good,
and good evil;
that put darkness for light,
and light for darkness;
that put bitter for sweet,
and sweet for bitter!
Isa:5:21:
Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes,
and prudent in their own sight!
Isa:5:22:
Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine,
and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
Isa:5:23:
Which justify the wicked for reward,
and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!
Isa:5:24:
Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble,
and the flame consumeth the chaff,
so their root shall be as rottenness,
and their blossom shall go up as dust:
because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts,
and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.
Isa:5:25:
Therefore is the anger of the LORD kindled against his people,
and he hath stretched forth his hand against them,
and hath smitten them:
and the hills did tremble,
and their carcases were torn in the midst of the streets.
For all this his anger is not turned away,
but his hand is stretched out still.
Isa:5:26:
And he will lift up an ensign to the nations from far,
and will hiss unto them from the end of the earth:
and,
behold,
they shall come with speed swiftly:
Isa:5:27:
None shall be weary nor stumble among them; none shall slumber nor sleep;
neither shall the girdle of their loins be loosed,
nor the latchet of their shoes be broken:
Isa:5:28:
Whose arrows are sharp,
and all their bows bent,
their horses' hoofs shall be counted like flint,
and their wheels like a whirlwind:
Isa:5:29:
Their roaring shall be like a lion,
they shall roar like young lions:
yea,
they shall roar,
and lay hold of the prey,
and shall carry it away safe,
and none shall deliver it.
Isa:5:30:
And in that day they shall roar against them like the roaring of the sea:
and if one look unto the land,
behold darkness and sorrow,
and the light is darkened in the heavens thereof.

The rivers aredried uo nothing towards the east will slow them down, they don't even stop to go to the bathroom Vs:27.

China, no way, angelic all the way

Now I will go back to my other reply. Thosethat support the sword, like make the parts and supply the foord are part of the sword just for your info.

[CoreIssue]

Hi MHz,
The army is China.
Say WHAT???
If I didn't know better I would take this as a joke.
Yep. Very serious.
China has been able to field an army that big for decades already. Have bragged about it.
What is 200 million to a population over 1 billion?
No, not the best army, but an army indeed.
Core if I was to take this kind of route I could say that right this very moment an army of 200mill is in that same area, not by the count of boots on the ground but by including those from where these came that support their actions, the support of the actual 'sword'. I seriously can't believe you believe China (a nation of men) is the army of the 6th trump.
I suggest you compare the colors and such of that army to the colors and such of China. They are the same.
And how would you describe a modern army of tanks and artillary in the days of John?
Do you really think, in any of the Biblical prophecies, OT or NT, where they talk about armies and such, that they are going to be cavalry?
Where does the army come from? Not the Pit.
Why? Do you even believe in Heaven, do you believe in angels,
Of course I do.
in this case four fallen ones
For the I don't how many times, demons are not fallen angels. Fallen angels are in the Pit per Jude.
that cause the deaths of 1/3 of man (that is from the whole of man, not some little area like the ME or EU) At 6 bill that is 2 bill that will die, from men. all men not just Christians from the inhabitants of the Earth. Since this is only after the first woe there are 37 months in which this will be accomplished, that is 1,801,801/day on average.

Actually, you need to read. At least 1/3 of the earth's populatiion is already dead from the Seals. So, in a world in such turmoil, a marching army of this size we reach well into Europe.
Who do you think that army will be going after? The AC and the EU. Not to mention wanting to settel old grievances against Russia.
Why then? Because the EU has defeated Russia and her allies and taken total control of all the oil fields and such.
China, really;

Yea, China.
If this is the first time you have heard this, I am shocked. Many, many scholars and theologans hold to this.
Re:9:13:
And the sixth angel sounded,
and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
Re:9:14:
Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet,
Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

Again, angel means messenger or envoy. It does not mean 'angel' here.
Re:9:15:
And the four angels were loosed,
which were prepared for an hour,
and a day,
and a month,
and a year,
for to slay the third part of men.

Exactly in the same context of the 3 evil spirits of the False Trinity, in the 6th Bowl, going out to gather the world armies for Armageddon.
Evil spirts gathering an army of men.
Re:9:16:
And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand:
and I heard the number of them.

Which China has been able to do for years.
Re:9:17:
And thus I saw the horses in the vision,

How would you describe mobile army in the days of John?
Soldiers rode horses then. Armor rides mechanized 'horses.'
and them that sat on them,
having breastplates of fire,
and of jacinth,
and brimstone:

Colors. The colors of China.
and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions;
and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

A tank roars and spouts smoke and fire when it shoots.
Re:9:18:
By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire,
and by the smoke,
and by the brimstone,
which issued out of their mouths.

Yep. Good description of artillary hitting a target.
Or, mobile rocket and missile launchers.
Re:9:19:
For their power is in their mouth,
and in their tails:

Yep. Tanks and such can fire both forward and backwards.
for their tails were like unto serpents,

Barrel pointing backwards.
and had heads,
and with them they do hurt.
Tank turret, in example.
Re:9:20:
And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands,
that they should not worship devils,
and idols of gold,
and silver,
and brass,
and stone,
and of wood:
which neither can see,
nor hear,
nor walk:
Re:9:21:
Neither repented they of their murders,
nor of their sorceries,
nor of their fornication,
nor of their thefts.

Meaing the followers of the AC do not see the AC brought this down on them. They stay with him.
He is their 'god' but cannot save them. Yet they keep worshipping him.
Just how twisted do you have to be to read China in there, yhis literally reads angelic (bound=fallan, as holy watchers are only bound in their faith)

How does John describe technology that words did not even exist for, in his day?
As for this Holy Watchers stuff, that concept does not exist in the Bible, fallen angels are in the Pit and there is nothing Holy about them.
Now I do admire a strong hold on belief, but this is less admired than a sense of reason, the kings og the east are (HELLO) good guys, that vial only prepares a way for their journey;

What? China good guys? Where did you get that idea from>
There is nothing wrong with my reasoning or logic.
Zec:8
Is MK. Not Trib.
Isa:5:19:
That say,
Let him make speed,
and hasten his work,
that we may see it:
and let the counsel of the Holy One of Israel draw nigh and come,
that we may know it!
Isa:5:20:
Woe unto them that call evil good,
and good evil;
that put darkness for light,
and light for darkness;
that put bitter for sweet,
and sweet for bitter!
Isa:5:21:
Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes,
and prudent in their own sight!
Isa:5:22:
Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine,
and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
Isa:5:23:
Which justify the wicked for reward,
and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!
Isa:5:

The rivers aredried uo nothing towards the east will slow them down, they don't even stop to go to the bathroom Vs:27.

And now you have jumped forward in time to the 6th Bowl, which is the gathering of the bad guys to Armageddon.
China, no way, angelic all the way
Never said they are demons.
And demons don't need rivers dried up to get across.
Now I will go back to my other reply. Thosethat support the sword, like make the parts and supply the foord are part of the sword just for your info.
Will wait.

[MHz]

Hi Core,
Hi MHz,
Yes.
So if Scripture doesn't use the term 'AC' as a term for the beast from the pit why do you use it so often.

No, he does not. There is no resurrection of those in the Pit until the White Throne.
The 6th Bowl clearly shows the FP is a man with a demon in him. You cannot simply dismiss that fact.
The description of the second beast of Re:13 points to a man as the FP;
Re:13:18:
Here is wisdom.
Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast:
for it is the number of a man;
and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Now you might say this is the AC, the beast from the pit but a previous verse points to two (beings);
Re:13:11:
And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth;
and he had two horns like a lamb,
and he spake as a dragon.

Two horns equals two, the beast and one man.

We agree that Satan cannot cause any man to be resurrected.

No, he cannot. The fallen angels are bound until the White Throne per Jude.
What verse describes them being at Judgement Day?
Once cast out of Heaven they won't ever be there again and that is where the Great White Throne is and it is only men that are described as being resurrected.

As you say Jude mentions this, but the Great White Throne is not mentioned;
Jude:1:6:
And the angels which kept not their first estate,
but left their own habitation,
he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Nor does this verse;
M't:8:29:
And,
behold,
they cried out,
saying,
What have we to do with thee,
Jesus,
thou Son of God?
art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

Both mention 'a day' or 'the time', not taken to Heaven, and I think this verse says they won't ever be there;

Re:12:7:
And there was war in heaven:
Michael and his angels fought against the dragon;
and the dragon fought and his angels,
Re:12:8:
And prevailed not;
neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Their day is most likely in this verse;

Isa:51:6:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
and look upon the earth beneath:
for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke,
and the earth shall wax old like a garment,
and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner:
but my salvation shall be for ever,
and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

'They that dwell therein' should include the fallen ones dealth with at the same time fire from God in Heaven happens.

There are TWO Beasts. This refers to the First Beast. But the Second Beast rises from the Pit, not the First.
Yes the first beast;
Re:13:3:
And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death;
and his deadly wound was healed:
and all the world wondered after the beast.
Re:13:4:
And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast:
and they worshipped the beast,
saying,
Who is like unto the beast?
who is able to make war with him?
Re:13:5:
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies;
and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Re:13:6:
And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God,
to blaspheme his name,
and his tabernacle,
and them that dwell in heaven.
Re:13:7:
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints,
and to overcome them:
and power was given him over all kindreds,
and tongues, and nations.
Re:13:8:
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him,
whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

This is the beast that kills the two witnesses;
Re:11:7:
And when they shall have finished their testimony,
the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them,
and shall overcome them,
and kill them.

This same beast is also with the next beast(part of) the second beast, one of the two horns;
one horn being the first beast (the one Satan releases), the other horn being the FP who comes from 3 of the 10.



I am saying the EU exists now and will BECOME the restored Roman Empire by the hand and power of the AC.
Just as Alexander took the Greek Confederation and turned it into an Empire.
It does not say the Beast gives them their kingdom. It says they receive their kingdoms and the AC receives his. No demand of being at the same moment in time.
It says they recieve after being with the Beast one hour and nowhere does it say one kingdom equals one nation, a kingdom can have more than one nation.


No. It is the AC. The king rises from the Ten. The FP is a priest, not a king.
This would seem to make the beast from the pit the 8th king and that would seem to make Satan the 7th. The 8th shouldn't be able to rise from something that doesn't exist (10 kingdoms) because they don't exist untill he gives them to them. Satan gives the beast his power which allows the beast to do what he does in the 42 months, one thing is giving 10 men kingdoms.
The FP is who comes out of the ten.


Yes, the AC and FP are both men. Men with demons.
The AC has the demon of the king who was. He is fully in power from the first Seal, as king.
The FP is his priest. His demon rises at Mid, in the 2th Woe within the 6th Trumpet.
Two men with two demons. Satan in the statue satan. 3 evil spirits in 3 bodies. Clearly stated in the 6th Bowl.
The first seal is before the 5th trump, Satan is only cast to Earth during the 5th trump and it is at this time he releases the beast from the pit, this puts the cart before the horse, so to speak.
Satan is certainly not human and he has an unclean spirit, would all the fallen angels also have unclean spirits?


That is the AC, First Seal. Not the FP.

The Seals show the AC is already killing saints before Mid.
Re:6:3:
And when he had opened the second seal,
I heard the second beast say,
Come and see.
Re:6:4:
And there went out another horse that was red:
and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth,
and that they should kill one another:
and there was given unto him a great sword.

Ro:13:1:
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers.
For there is no power but of God:
the powers that be are ordained of God.
Ro:13:2:
Whosoever therefore resisteth the power,
resisteth the ordinance of God:
and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Ro:13:3:
For rulers are not a terror to good works,
but to the evil.
Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power?
do that which is good,
and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Ro:13:4:
For he is the minister of God to thee for good.
But if thou do that which is evil,
be afraid;
for he beareth not the sword in vain:
for he is the minister of God,
a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Ro:13:5:
Wherefore ye must needs be subject,
not only for wrath,
but also for conscience sake.
Ro:13:6:
For for this cause pay ye tribute also:
for they are God's ministers,
attending continually upon this very thing.
Ro:13:7:
Render therefore to all their dues:
tribute to whom tribute is due;
custom to whom custom;
fear to whom fear;
honour to whom honour.

When governments use their sword to do purposes for which it was not intended then they are wayward shepherds, not a good thing when God sees them as His servants.

Isa:56:10:
His watchmen are blind:
they are all ignorant,
they are all dumb dogs,
they cannot bark;
sleeping,
lying down,
loving to slumber.
Isa:56:11:
Yea,
they are greedy dogs which can never have enough,
and they are shepherds that cannot understand:
they all look to their own way,
every one for his gain,
from his quarter.
Isa:56:12:
Come ye,
say they,
I will fetch wine,
and we will fill ourselves with strong drink;
and to morrow shall be as this day,
and much more abundant.

Jer:25:34:
Howl,
ye shepherds,
and cry;
and wallow yourselves in the ashes,
ye principal of the flock:
for the days of your slaughter and of your dispersions are accomplished;
and ye shall fall like a pleasant vessel.
Jer:25:36:
A voice of the cry of the shepherds,
and an howling of the principal of the flock,
shall be heard:
for the LORD hath spoiled their pasture.


Nope. They are the Trib saints. Those under the alter and before the Throne in multitudes.
You have zero verses backing that claim.

Not the Two Witnesses
The two witnesses are these;
Da:7:25:
And he shall speak great words against the most High,
and shall wear out the saints of the most High,
and think to change times and laws:
and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Now before you say this is 3 1/2 years this is said before that concept is even introduced;

Da:9:1:
In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus,
of the seed of the Medes,
which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;
Da:9:2:
In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet,
that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.



Da:11:32:
And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries:
but the people that do know their God shall be strong,
and do exploits.
Da:11:33:
And they that understand among the people shall instruct many:
yet they shall fall by the sword,
and by flame,
by captivity,
and by spoil,
many days.

Yes. The AC. The king who was, is not and shall be the 8th.
The FP is not a king. He is a priest.
I agree with the beast being the eigth (last one before Christ) If Satan is the 7th then angelic being can be king on Earth, Christ is certainly a from Heaven and He will be the final king.

2/3 die. Not all. At the hand of the false shephard.
When Christ descends, he gathers the surviving Jews out of the nations and those that survived in Israel.
The 1/3 that survive are not Jews, none of that passage is about Jews, true the beginning of that chapter is talking about Jews but not all the way through;

Zec:13:7:
Awake,
O sword,
against my shepherd,
and against the man that is my fellow,
saith the LORD of hosts:
smite the shepherd,
and the sheep shall be scattered:
and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

Renber those verses from Romans, the servants with the sword (governments of the nations), that is who the shepherds are and they get smote. The sheep are the people of the nations, as in;
Joh:10:16:
And other sheep I have,
which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring,
and they shall hear my voice;
and there shall be one fold,
and one shepherd.

Zec:13:8:
And it shall come to pass,
that in all the land,
saith the LORD,
two parts therein shall be cut off and die;
but the third shall be left therein.

In this case in all the world.

Zec:13:9:
And I will bring the third part through the fire,
and will refine them as silver is refined,
and will try them as gold is tried:
they shall call on my name,
and I will hear them:
I will say,
It is my people:
and they shall say,
The LORD is my God.

Gentiles in the above, Jews, other than the 144,000 are resurrected, that is how they are gathered, the whole house from their very beginning. If God has His back turned to a person during the 42 months the beast has, your chance of making it through alive has pretty much hit zero. At the same time these areresurrected before the surviving 1/3 of the nations are gathered.


The 144,000 are in one place of protection for the full time of the AC.Yes, the 3rd woman of Re:12

She is a city and a religion. She is Rome and the RCC, the religion of Rome.
No matter how many times you repeat this it doesn't make it a fact, so throw in some new verses on this subject if you want to sway me.

Your verses jump all over the place. Trying to link together what is not the same thing.
Yes they do come from many different books of the Holy Bible, what's your point?

The AC and his kingdom. Not the FP.

Pagan Rome plus the RCC is Rome.

That is not the 7th Bowl issue. It is not Israel either.
2/3 of the world's population die in the Trib. Many nations are laid waste. But many also are repopulated in the MK.
But not Rome. Not the city of the 7th Bowl, the Harlot. It is never inhabited again.
I do not understand why you keep insisting it is Jerusalem. It clearly says it is never inhabited again while Jerusalem is clearly stated to be Christ's city and inhabited.
The 7th Bowl in Revelation describes Rome. You cannot make Isaiah the 7th Bowl, the Woman, the 7 Hills or any such of the issues laid out in Revelation.

When Jerusalem is split and part goes north and part goes south for some miles would you relate this to being likened to an earthquake? The temple ground, is that split also?


John and Stephen were but two men. Rome was responsible for the deaths of 10s or hundreds of millions.
Jerusalem never killed that many saints. And the OT saints did not preach Jesus.
Jerusalem is not in the Beasts. It is not in the Statue. It is not in the Ten Toes. But the Woman most assuredly is in all of them.
You are disregarding evidence after evidence that tells you it is not Jerusalem.
Well, their names are in the Bible, and two makes it plural. If the Christans who die are not mentioned by name should I place more Scripture meaning them (not mentioned) over ones who are mentioned?

Future. Has not happened yet. But they will be killed by the New Romans.
Well they are associated with the brass and you have the 'New Romans' being the iron so that doesn't work. This is one of the four kings after Alex so it has already passed, the next 4 kings, Rome was king for how long over the people and the city?

Peter and Paul were executed in the city of Rome. Other apostles died in Roman provinces.
So some of the hosts of Heaven and stars were killed by Rome

They were all most assuredly prophets. And those with the gift of prophecy also died at the hands of Rome.

Not correct. Paul and Peter died in the city of Rome by the command of the Emporer.
Is he the king of the Roman Empire?

Rome. Millions died in the arendas and circuses. Millions died in the Inquisition. All by Rome.
Scripture may not mention them even though they will all be remembered at a time yet to be.

Yes. But this is talking about Jerusalem, not the Woman or any of the issues laid out in Revelation.
You are trying to merge two separate issues into one.
Jersulem is never called Mystery Babylon. Daniel lays out Mystery Babyon. Jerusalem is not to be found there.
Neither is Rome mentioned by name, Jerusalem is likened to Sodom and Egypt, Rome never is.

John the Baptist did not write any book of the Bible.
It does not say who wrote about him prophetically died. It says those who preached Jesus. The OT saints did not preach Jesus.
But the millions of NT saints who died at the hands of Rome most assuredly did.

What hespoke was recorded, so yes he cause things to be written in a very certain way;
Joh:1:15:
John bare witness of him,
and cried,
saying,
This was he of whom I spake,
He that cometh after me is preferred before me:
for he was before me.
Joh:1:16:
And of his fulness have all we received,
and grace for grace.
Joh:1:17:
For the law was given by Moses,
but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Joh:1:18:
No man hath seen God at any time;
the only begotten Son,
which is in the bosom of the Father,
he hath declared him.
Joh:1:19:
And this is the record of John,
when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him,
Who art thou?
Joh:1:20:
And he confessed,
and denied not;
but confessed,
I am not the Christ.
Joh:1:21:
And they asked him,
What then?
Art thou Elias?
And he saith,
I am not.
Art thou that prophet?
And he answered,
No.
Joh:1:22:
Then said they unto him,
Who art thou?
that we may give an answer to them that sent us.
What sayest thou of thyself?
Joh:1:23:
He said,
I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness,
Make straight the way of the Lord,
as said the prophet Esaias.
Joh:1:24:
And they which were sent were of the Pharisees.
Joh:1:25:
And they asked him,
and said unto him,
Why baptizest thou then,
if thou be not that Christ,
nor Elias,
neither that prophet?
Joh:1:26:
John answered them,
saying,
I baptize with water:
but there standeth one among you,
whom ye know not;
Joh:1:27:
He it is,
who coming after me is preferred before me,
whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.
Joh:1:28:
These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan,
where John was baptizing.

Is the below preaching Christ;

Isa:53:1:
Who hath believed our report?
and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
Isa:53:2:
For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant,
and as a root out of a dry ground:
he hath no form nor comeliness;
and when we shall see him,
there is no beauty that we should desire him.
Isa:53:3:
He is despised and rejected of men;
a man of sorrows,
and acquainted with grief:
and we hid as it were our faces from him;
he was despised,
and we esteemed him not.
Isa:53:4:
Surely he hath borne our griefs,
and carried our sorrows:
yet we did esteem him stricken,
smitten of God,
and afflicted.
Isa:53:5:
But he was wounded for our transgressions,
he was bruised for our iniquities:
the chastisement of our peace was upon him;
and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa:53:6:
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned every one to his own way;
and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa:53:7:
He was oppressed,
and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth:
he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb,
so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa:53:8:
He was taken from prison and from judgment:
and who shall declare his generation?
for he was cut off out of the land of the living:
for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isa:53:9:
And he made his grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death;
because he had done no violence,
neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Isa:53:10:
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him;
he hath put him to grief:
when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,
he shall see his seed,
he shall prolong his days,
and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa:53:11:
He shall see of the travail of his soul,
and shall be satisfied:
by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many;
for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa:53:12:
Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong;
because he hath poured out his soul unto death:
and he was numbered with the transgressors;
and he bare the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.


Saints who were alive and died at the time of Christ were raised, as was Lazarus. Not resurrected, as Christ was.
The Bible calls all believers saints. OT and NT. But it does not call OT saints preachers of Jesus.
The did not fear the name of Jesus because they did not even know his name, then.
Wow! You sound all Catholic or Orthodox with this saints must have miracle powers stuff.
Read the letters to the curches. Read the churches of Revelation.
Saint means one set apart for God. All believers are set apart for God, powerful or not. And all saints have a Gift of the Holy Spirit per the Bible. Not restricted to what you are trying to limit it to here.
Saint's are not special believers. All believers are saints, some with extra special roles to fulfil.
Are the ones in the Churches saints before they overcome what they aresaid to have to overcome?

That is just down right flatly none Biblical.
Go here (http://www.biblegateway.com/) and search saint. Now tell me all those people were running around healing everyone. That every one could heal and such.
If you mean everyone that has a gift, then indeed all Church believers are saints, for all have a gift. Every last one.
Are signs following a sign from God that these have been sent or not? Many people are wise to what the Scriptures say, many more have an opinion.

All of Israel is restored, as are other lands. But Babylon, the land, and Rome, will never rise again from their destruction. Not all of the Dead Sea is restored, the marshy areas are not.
Where the bones are buried is not inhabitaed;
Eze:39:11:
And it shall come to pass in that day,
that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel,
the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea:
and it shall stop the noses of the passengers:
and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude:
and they shall call it The valley of Hamon-gog.
Eze:39:12:
And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them,
that they may cleanse the land.
Eze:39:13:
Yea,
all the people of the land shall bury them;
and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified,
saith the Lord GOD.
Eze:39:14:
And they shall sever out men of continual employment,
passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth,
to cleanse it:
after the end of seven months shall they search.
Eze:39:15:
And the passengers that pass through the land,
when any seeth a man's bone,
then shall he set up a sign by it,
till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamon-gog.
Eze:39:16:
And also the name of the city shall be Hamonah.
Thus shall they cleanse the land.


That has nothing to do with Christ in the OT.
Most assuredly his First and Second Comings, his MK rule and his place in eternity were future to the OT and some still future to now.
The Second person of the Trinity, Christ, is in his glorified flesh for eternity. The Father and Holy Spirit remain spirit for eternity.
But there was no Christ, God in human flesh, until the Incarnation.
The Messiah was known about

So what on the wings? The First Beast is a composite of all 4. It has aspects of each. Showing it is the mature Mystery Babylon.
One head of the First Beast represents Neb.
You forget the Beast gets its identify from Babylon. And the statue is the image of the First Beast. Remember old Neb's gold statue of himself?
Now, do you see the First Beast of Daniel in Revelation? All aspects of the Statue and Beasts are in the First Beast.
And they all ruled over the Jews, not all ruled over the Romans.

Silver, Medo-Pesia, a twin kinged Empire. One Mede King and one Persian King. Most assuredly I can find two kings.
And post assuredly two in the iron. John states a king who is, being the Roman Empire at his moment in time, and one who would come next. Another Roman.
Rome most assuredly split into to two Romes.
And that is the reason for the words about one of the four that followed Ales in Daniel 8, what Rome did during Christ's time, upto the destruction in 70AD.

But they are not listed in the Statue. And they are not called Beasts.
The 4th Beast is none of them, but Rome.
Rome never mocked God, they even let the Jews keep this part of their culture.

But one king and one kingdom, composed of 4 unified.

No. It says the little horn will rise out of the Ten. Not one word of the ten most corrupt men in the world.
Again. The legs, Rome, collapsed into Ten Empires. A non debatable historical fact.
They will remerge. As is reality today in the EU. Out of that merger will rise the king who was, is not and will be. And as stated, will be one of the 5 who were.
Not a resurrected man. But the demon of a man in a new man, being the 8th king.
Apparently it is debatable.

The AC will be ruling the kingdom 3.5 years before Satan is cast down.

Never said otherwise. The whole earth will suffer.
But that still does not make Jerusalem Mystery Babylon.

No. 70th Week is future. Christ died almost 40 years earlier, at the end of the 69th Week. Not in the 70th.
We already covered the grammar of that before. But here you go again trying to change the meaning of 'after' again.

Again, we covered the linquistics of the prince and I showed you the meaning makes it impossible for the second prince to be Christ.
Not to mention you are totally non-literal on the 70th Week, with nothing but theory on what you believe.

There is nothing Church about the Woman or her associates.

I'm not going to get into this at the moment.

You have Catholicism or Orthodox in your background, don't you? They get all hyper about the Woman being Rome and try to blame Jerusalem.
I already explained how I came to read Scripture in another thread in the past few weeks. Did I say anything about what you wrote above, no I didn't.

They do not define the saints killed.
Rome, pagan and Catholic killed millions upon millions.
that isn't in the Holy Bible

Pagan Rome fell.
But you prove my point. Rome, itself, has not fallen, thus, to date is not a widow or suffering woe.
Israel was a widow from the land for almost 2,000 years and has suffered greatly.
You might want to re-read what being a widow is, exile is not being a widow, God still heard and answered prayers in Daniel's time and they were in exile then.

Conquered, not destroyed.
During that great Earthquake all the cities in all the nations will also fall at the same time;
Re:16:19:
And the great city was divided into three parts,
and the cities of the nations fell:
and great Babylon came in remembrance before God,
to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

So there you have Rome(and many others), does this also exclude the nations as hosting the city that is split?


Where does it say the MK is sin free? Never said.
In fact it says there will be evil people born, there will be birth and there will be death.
You are trying to put the NJ and no earthly sinful flesh into the MK on the New Earth.
We have discussed that before and I showed you the verses showing sin and so on then.

M't:13:41:
The Son of man shall send forth his angels,
and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend,
and them which do iniquity;

Psalms:35:5:
Let them be as chaff before the wind:
and let the angel of the LORD chase them.
Psalms:35:6:
Let their way be dark and slippery:
and let the angel of the LORD persecute them.

Isa:5:20:
Woe unto them that call evil good,
and good evil;
that put darkness for light,
and light for darkness;
that put bitter for sweet,
and sweet for bitter!
Isa:5:21:
Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes,
and prudent in their own sight!
Isa:5:22:
Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine,
and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
Isa:5:23:
Which justify the wicked for reward,
and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!
Isa:5:24:
Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble,
and the flame consumeth the chaff,
so their root shall be as rottenness,
and their blossom shall go up as dust:
because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts,
and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.
Isa:5:25:
Therefore is the anger of the LORD kindled against his people,
and he hath stretched forth his hand against them,
and hath smitten them:
and the hills did tremble,
and their carcases were torn in the midst of the streets.
For all this his anger is not turned away,
but his hand is stretched out still.

Isa:17:11:
In the day shalt thou make thy plant to grow,
and in the morning shalt thou make thy seed to flourish:
but the harvest shall be a heap in the day of grief and of desperate sorrow.
Isa:17:12:
Woe to the multitude of many people,
which make a noise like the noise of the seas;
and to the rushing of nations,
that make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters!
Isa:17:13:
The nations shall rush like the rushing of many waters:
but God shall rebuke them,
and they shall flee far off,
and shall be chased as the chaff of the mountains before the wind,
and like a rolling thing before the whirlwind.
Isa:17:14:
And behold at eveningtide trouble;
and before the morning he is not.
This is the portion of them that spoil us,
and the lot of them that rob us.

Isa:29:5:
Moreover the multitude of thy strangers shall be like small dust,
and the multitude of the terrible ones shall be as chaff that passeth away:
yea,
it shall be at an instant suddenly.
Isa:29:6:
Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder,
and with earthquake,
and great noise,
with storm and tempest,
and the flame of devouring fire.
Isa:29:7:
And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel,
even all that fight against her and her munition,
and that distress her,
shall be as a dream of a night vision.
Isa:29:8:
It shall even be as when an hungry man dreameth,
and,
behold,
he eateth;
but he awaketh,
and his soul is empty:
or as when a thirsty man dreameth,
and,
behold,
he drinketh;
but he awaketh,
and,
behold,
he is faint,
and his soul hath appetite:
so shall the multitude of all the nations be,
that fight against mount Zion.

Zep:1:18:
Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath;
but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy:
for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

Thereare more but this should give you idea that those not living are all the wicked, those left alive have been either resurrected or remain alive. This verse ia applicable at this point in time;
M't:22:30:
For in the resurrection they neither marry,
nor are given in marriage,
but are as the angels of God in heaven.

There you have a static population for the thousand years


False. Jerusalem is inhabited and maintained by the Jews.
No where does it say Christ rebuilds the Temple himself.

Zec:6:12:
And speak unto him,
saying,
Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts,
saying,
Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH;
and he shall grow up out of his place,
and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
Zec:6:13:
Even he shall build the temple of the LORD;
and he shall bear the glory,
and shall sit and rule upon his throne;
and he shall be a priest upon his throne:
and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
Zec:6:14:
And the crowns shall be to Helem,
and to Tobijah,
and to Jedaiah,
and to Hen the son of Zephaniah,
for a memorial in the temple of the LORD.
Zec:6:15:
And they that are far off shall come and build in the temple of the LORD,
and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you.
And this shall come to pass,
if ye will diligently obey the voice of the LORD your God.

Twice it says He will build the temple, 'Even he shall build' is singular, people will be invited to build 'in the temple' (as in an existing structure) not build the temple.
From the time Jerusalem is split untill Jews and Gentiles are there to enter His house of prayer there is no time to build anything, it is there before any bones are gathered;
Isa:56:6:
Also the sons of the stranger,
that join themselves to the LORD,
to serve him,
and to love the name of the LORD,
to be his servants,
every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it,
and taketh hold of my covenant;
Isa:56:7:
Even them will I bring to my holy mountain,
and make them joyful in my house of prayer:
their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar;
for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
Isa:56:8:
The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith,
Yet will I gather others to him,
beside those that are gathered unto him.
Isa:56:9:
All ye beasts of the field,
come to devour,
yea,
all ye beasts in the forest.



Hmmm. I thought you talked about a sinless New Earth and such.
OK.

Re:21:26:
And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
Re:21:27:
And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth,
neither whatsoever worketh abomination,
or maketh a lie:
but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

After Judgement Day just how do those get from Heaven (Great White Throne) to a new Earth? Remember the old one being burnt up and all that were still there;

Isa:51:6:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
and look upon the earth beneath:
for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke,
and the earth shall wax old like a garment,
and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner:
but my salvation shall be for ever,
and my righteousness shall not be abolished.



Later (I hope you can read through my poor editing, it is late and I'm sacked)

[CoreIssue]

Sorry, I got messed up on time and the time limit messed up my post.

If you cannot decipher something, let me know and I will sort through. Just out of time for now.

So if Scripture doesn't use the term 'AC' as a term for the beast from the pit why do you use it so often.
Because it states the AC is there from the beginning of the Trib, the First Seal, states in the three that the FP is the Second Beast and the descirption of the First Beast fits the AC.
That is what I do not get. The Second Beast is never descripted as even resembling the First Beast.
Quote:

No, he does not. There is no resurrection of those in the Pit until the White Throne.
The 6th Bowl clearly shows the FP is a man with a demon in him. You cannot simply dismiss that fact.
The description of the second beast of Re:13 points to a man as the FP;
Re:13:18:
Here is wisdom.
Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast:
for it is the number of a man;
and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

A man with a demon in him. Which the 6th Bowl clearly declares him to be.
Quote:
Now you might say this is the AC, the beast from the pit but a previous verse points to two (beings);
Re:13:11:
And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth;
and he had two horns like a lamb,
and he spake as a dragon.

Two horns equals two, the beast and one man.

No. One man and one demon, who together are the Second Beast.
Beast means vile man.
Quote:
We agree that Satan cannot cause any man to be resurrected.
Thus a man cannot rise from the Pit.
Quote:

No, he cannot. The fallen angels are bound until the White Throne per Jude.
What verse describes them being at Judgement Day?
All Hell is emptied into the Lake at the White Throne. That includes fallen angels and demons.
The White Throne is the singlular, one time, judgement of condemnation.
Quote:
Once cast out of Heaven they won't ever be there again
The War in Heaven is ancient history. They were cast down before Adam.
Jude clearly shows them being past tense in the Pit.
Quote:
and that is where the Great White Throne is and it is only men that are described as being resurrected.
Nope. The White Throne is not shown on the earth or in Heaven. The wording appears to show after the destruction of the Heavens and the earth and before the new are created.
As you say Jude mentions this, but the Great White Throne is not mentioned;
Quote:
Jude:1:6:
And the angels which kept not their first estate,
but left their own habitation,
he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
There is no other Judgement Day.
Nor does this verse;
Quote:
M't:8:29:
And,
behold,
they cried out,
saying,
What have we to do with thee,
Jesus,
thou Son of God?
art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

Demons, not fallen angels.
Quote:
Both mention 'a day' or 'the time', not taken to Heaven, and I think this verse says they won't ever be there;

Re:12:7:
And there was war in heaven:
Michael and his angels fought against the dragon;
and the dragon fought and his angels,
Re:12:8:
And prevailed not;
neither was their place found any more in heaven.

History. Done before Adam.
Quote:
Their day is most likely in this verse;

Isa:51:6:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
and look upon the earth beneath:
for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke,
and the earth shall wax old like a garment,
and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner:
but my salvation shall be for ever,
and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

'They that dwell therein' should include the fallen ones dealth with at the same time fire from God in Heaven happens.

Angels do not die.
Quote:

There are TWO Beasts. This refers to the First Beast. But the Second Beast rises from the Pit, not the First.
Yes the first beast;
Re:13:3:
And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death;
and his deadly wound was healed:
and all the world wondered after the beast.
Re:13:4:
And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast:
and they worshipped the beast,
saying,
Who is like unto the beast?
who is able to make war with him?
Re:13:5:
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies;
and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Re:13:6:
And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God,
to blaspheme his name,
and his tabernacle,
and them that dwell in heaven.
Re:13:7:
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints,
and to overcome them:
and power was given him over all kindreds,
and tongues, and nations.
Re:13:8:
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him,
whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

First Beast is the King, the AC.
Quote:
This is the beast that kills the two witnesses;
Re:11:7:
And when they shall have finished their testimony,
the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them,
and shall overcome them,
and kill them.

Yep, FP. Demon in man.
Quote:
This same beast is also with the next beast(part of) the second beast, one of the two horns;
one horn being the first beast (the one Satan releases), the other horn being the FP who comes from 3 of the 10.

No. They are distinct personages.
The FP is never a king.
Three distinct. Satan/Dragon/dragon, AC/man & demon and FP/man & demon.
Quote:

I am saying the EU exists now and will BECOME the restored Roman Empire by the hand and power of the AC.
Just as Alexander took the Greek Confederation and turned it into an Empire.
It does not say the Beast gives them their kingdom. It says they receive their kingdoms and the AC receives his. No demand of being at the same moment in time.
It says they recieve after being with the Beast one hour and nowhere does it say one kingdom equals one nation, a kingdom can have more than one nation.
No, it does not. It says they exist and give their power to the AC.
They exist to give their power to the AC.
I have no doubt the AC and EU exist now. The AC is part of the EU and will rise out of it. Just as prophesied.
Quote:

No. It is the AC. The king rises from the Ten. The FP is a priest, not a king.
This would seem to make the beast from the pit the 8th king
Quote:
Absolutely not. The Second Beast is never a king.
and that would seem to make Satan the 7th.
No. Daniel tells us the 7th is the second Roman king and is very dead now.
Quote:
The 8th shouldn't be able to rise from something that doesn't exist (10 kingdoms) because they don't exist untill he gives them to them.
Which proves you wrong because Daniel and John most assuredly say he rises out of the Ten Toes.
Quote:
Satan gives the beast his power which allows the beast to do what he does in the 42 months, one thing is giving 10 men kingdoms.

No. The AC is already in power from the beginning of the Trib. Thus before the Trib.
The AC gains more power for 42 months, his power does not begin with Satan.
He invades Israel and then receives the additional power. He is already king.
Quote:
The FP is who comes out of the ten.
No. The AC rises out of the Ten and the FP is his prophet.
The FP is never a king.
Quote:

Yes, the AC and FP are both men. Men with demons.
The AC has the demon of the king who was. He is fully in power from the first Seal, as king.
The FP is his priest. His demon rises at Mid, in the 2th Woe within the 6th Trumpet.
Two men with two demons. Satan in the statue satan. 3 evil spirits in 3 bodies. Clearly stated in the 6th Bowl.
The first seal is before the 5th trump,
Yes, right at the beginning of the 7 year Trib. All the seals are before any Trumpet.
Quote:
Satan is only cast to Earth during the 5th trump
|
Which is day 1,261. At the close of the Two Witness' time and the end of Israel's 3.5 years of peace by the Treaty opening the 70th Week and shown in the First Seal.
You cannot have Satan, the Two and the Jewish Priests in the Inner Temple at the same time.
The measuring of the Temple says they are not.
Quote:
and it is at this time he releases the beast from the pit,
The demon of the FP, who kills the Two when he enters the FP.
Quote:
this puts the cart before the horse, so to speak.

No. It shows your time line is totally undoable.
Quote:
Satan is certainly not human and he has an unclean spirit, would all the fallen angels also have unclean spirits?
Satan does not have an unclean spirit. He is an unclean spirit.
Are you trying to give him, and fallen angels, flesh bodies with spirits, like men?
That is the AC, First Seal. Not the FP.

The Seals show the AC is already killing saints before Mid.
Quote:
Re:6:3:
And when he had opened the second seal,
I heard the second beast say,
Come and see.
Re:6:4:
And there went out another horse that was red:
and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth,
and that they should kill one another:
and there was given unto him a great sword.
Not tralking about saints. But war.
Quote:
Ro:13:1:
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers.
For there is no power but of God:
the powers that be are ordained of God.
Ro:13:2:
Whosoever therefore resisteth the power,
resisteth the ordinance of God:
and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Ro:13:3:
For rulers are not a terror to good works,
but to the evil.
Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power?
do that which is good,
and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Ro:13:4:
For he is the minister of God to thee for good.
But if thou do that which is evil,
be afraid;
for he beareth not the sword in vain:
for he is the minister of God,
a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Ro:13:5:
Wherefore ye must needs be subject,
not only for wrath,
but also for conscience sake.
Ro:13:6:
For for this cause pay ye tribute also:
for they are God's ministers,
attending continually upon this very thing.
Ro:13:7:
Render therefore to all their dues:
tribute to whom tribute is due;
custom to whom custom;
fear to whom fear;
honour to whom honour.

When governments use their sword to do purposes for which it was not intended then they are wayward shepherds, not a good thing when God sees them as His servants.

Right, but does not change the fact the AC is killing saints in the first half of the Trib.
Quote:
Isa:56:10:
His watchmen are blind:
they are all ignorant,
they are all dumb dogs,
they cannot bark;
sleeping,
lying down,
loving to slumber.
Isa:56:11:
Yea,
they are greedy dogs which can never have enough,
and they are shepherds that cannot understand:
they all look to their own way,
every one for his gain,
from his quarter.
Isa:56:12:
Come ye,
say they,
I will fetch wine,
and we will fill ourselves with strong drink;
and to morrow shall be as this day,
and much more abundant.

Jer:25:34:
Howl,
ye shepherds,
and cry;
and wallow yourselves in the ashes,
ye principal of the flock:
for the days of your slaughter and of your dispersions are accomplished;
and ye shall fall like a pleasant vessel.
Jer:25:36:
A voice of the cry of the shepherds,
and an howling of the principal of the flock,
shall be heard:
for the LORD hath spoiled their pasture.

But still, the AC is killing saints before Satan is cast down. Quote:

Nope. They are the Trib saints. Those under the alter and before the Throne in multitudes.
You have zero verses backing that claim.

Not the Two Witnesses
The two witnesses are these;
Da:7:25:
And he shall speak great words against the most High,
and shall wear out the saints of the most High,
and think to change times and laws:
and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Give over completely for 3.5 years. Not the Two Witnesses.
Not 3.5 days, but 3.5 years, here.
Quote:
Now before you say this is 3 1/2 years this is said before that concept is even introduced;
False. The concept is ancient.
Da:9:1:
In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus,
of the seed of the Medes,
which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;
Quote:
Da:9:2:
In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet,
that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

Da:11:32:
And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries:
but the people that do know their God shall be strong,
and do exploits.
Da:11:33:
And they that understand among the people shall instruct many:
yet they shall fall by the sword,
and by flame,
by captivity,
and by spoil,
many days.
Notice there is no explanation, meaning the concept was already known.
Times means years.
Quote:

Yes. The AC. The king who was, is not and shall be the 8th.
The FP is not a king. He is a priest.
I agree with the beast being the eigth (last one before Christ) If Satan is the 7th then angelic being can be king on Earth, Christ is certainly a from Heaven and He will be the final king.
No. Christ as at the time of the 6th.
John tells you the 7th was not yet. And he wrote after Christ.
The 8th is future.
Quote:

2/3 die. Not all. At the hand of the false shephard.
When Christ descends, he gathers the surviving Jews out of the nations and those that survived in Israel.
The 1/3 that survive are not Jews, none of that passage is about Jews, true the beginning of that chapter is talking about Jews but not all the way through;
Most assuredly if you kill 2/3 of the Jews 1/3 remain.
Bible tells us he gathers the 144,000 and the remnant hiding in other nations.
Most assuredly the False Shepard is talking about Jews.

Quote:
Zec:13:7:

Renber those verses from Romans, the servants with the sword (governments of the nations), that is who the shepherds are and they get smote. The sheep are the people of the nations, as in;
Joh:10:16:
And other sheep I have,
which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring,
and they shall hear my voice;
and there shall be one fold,
and one shepherd.

Zec:13:8:

In this case in all the world.

Zec:13:9:
And I will bring the third part through the fire,
and will refine them as silver is refined,
and will try them as gold is tried:
they shall call on my name,
and I will hear them:
I will say,
It is my people:
and they shall say,
The LORD is my God.
No. It is talking about Israel in Zec. Verse 1 tells you that.
Quote:
1 "On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity.

Quote:
Gentiles in the above, Jews, other than the 144,000 are resurrected, that is how they are gathered, the whole house from their very beginning.
No. Gentiles are never members of the House of Israel or Judah.
They are not resurrected to populate the earth again.
Quote:
If God has His back turned to a person during the 42 months the beast has, your chance of making it through alive has pretty much hit zero. At the same time these areresurrected before the surviving 1/3 of the nations are gathered.

Those gathered from the nations are not resurrected. They never died.
Quote:
The 144,000 are in one place of protection for the full time of the AC.
Yes, the 3rd woman of Re:12
There is only one Woman, Isael, there. She flees in her last mention.
Those who compose her change, but her identity does not.
Quote:

She is a city and a religion. She is Rome and the RCC, the religion of Rome.
No matter how many times you repeat this it doesn't make it a fact, so throw in some new verses on this subject if you want to sway me.
I have given them all.
You have yet to show Israel destroyed, never to rise again. Show Israel as part of the Satatue or as a Beast. Yet to show a king from Israel in the lineage. yet to show Israel every called Mystery Babylon.
I have shown Rome fits in every case and category.
Seems you are the one that needs to show some proof. Just throwing out verses about the rest of the world and Israel does not make them the Harlot or the city in the 7th Bowl.
Tell me, over the last 2,000 years, who has been the widow and suffered grief in the world, Rome or Jews?
Quote:

Your verses jump all over the place. Trying to link together what is not the same thing.
Yes they do come from many different books of the Holy Bible, what's your point?
My point is you take parts clearly labeled multiple subjects and try to say they all are the same thing.
You cannot do that.
Verses on punishing Israel do not make them 7th Bowl verses.
Neither do verses on destroying physical Iraq (Babylon) make them 7th Bowl. As well as with verses on Damascus and such.
You try to put Christ and the Bride in the Trib. They are not there. Bride is Church, not Israel.
That is my point.
The AC and his kingdom. Not the FP.

Pagan Rome plus the RCC is Rome.
Quote:

That is not the 7th Bowl issue. It is not Israel either.
2/3 of the world's population die in the Trib. Many nations are laid waste. But many also are repopulated in the MK.
But not Rome. Not the city of the 7th Bowl, the Harlot. It is never inhabited again.
I do not understand why you keep insisting it is Jerusalem. It clearly says it is never inhabited again while Jerusalem is clearly stated to be Christ's city and inhabited.
The 7th Bowl in Revelation describes Rome. You cannot make Isaiah the 7th Bowl, the Woman, the 7 Hills or any such of the issues laid out in Revelation.

When Jerusalem is split and part goes north and part goes south for some miles would you relate this to being likened to an earthquake? The temple ground, is that split also?

That is off topic.
In the 7th Bowl Rome is totally wiped off the face of the earth. It never rises again as a city.
Jerusalem is altered and damaged, but not wiped off, ever, and most assuredly rises again.
Thus, your efforts to make Jerusalem the 7th Bowl city are false. And that is the issue here.
Quote:

John and Stephen were but two men. Rome was responsible for the deaths of 10s or hundreds of millions.
Jerusalem never killed that many saints. And the OT saints did not preach Jesus.
Jerusalem is not in the Beasts. It is not in the Statue. It is not in the Ten Toes. But the Woman most assuredly is in all of them.
You are disregarding evidence after evidence that tells you it is not Jerusalem.

Well, their names are in the Bible, and two makes it plural. If the Christans who die are not mentioned by name should I place more Scripture meaning them (not mentioned) over ones who are mentioned?

So what?
You have no justification for picking two names and declaring them the sole ones talked about. Thus justifying your claim Jerusalem is the Harlot.
Peter and John are two names in the Bible. They were both killed IN Rome BY Rome.
The verse in Revelation says blood of saints who testified to Christ. Rome killed millions.
Now, you have to add that to all that is said about this city. And Jerusalem does not fit all the descriptions of this city.
Jerusalem is not and never was contained in the Ten Toe nations.
Quote:

Future. Has not happened yet. But they will be killed by the New Romans.
Well they are associated with the brass and you have the 'New Romans' being the iron so that doesn't work. This is one of the four kings after Alex so it has already passed, the next 4 kings, Rome was king for how long over the people and the city?
No. That is not said. Never.
It says the next Beast is of Iron. Which was Rome. Rome is gone.
But it says that Beast, the legs, break into Ten. That happened in history.
The Ten rejoin. That has happened in the EU.
The AC rises out of the Ten. That eliminates Jerusalem.
The 4th Beast is long dead history.
The AC Beast contains the 7 kings, the 10 Toe Nations, the 4 Beasts. All merge to become the AC and his Empire.
There is nothing of Jerusalem in that Beast.
Quote:

Peter and Paul were executed in the city of Rome. Other apostles died in Roman provinces.

So some of the hosts of Heaven and stars were killed by Rome
No angel was killed by Rome. Unless you are misuing the words.
And not some. Millions and millions. There is absolutely no requirement, in the Bible, the names of those she kills is listed in the Bible.
I gave as many names, for Rome, as you did, for Jerusalem.
Quote:
They were all most assuredly prophets. And those with the gift of prophecy also died at the hands of Rome.

Not correct. Paul and Peter died in the city of Rome by the command of the Emporer.
Is he the king of the Roman Empire?
The 6th is named as the Emporer at the time of John. Clearly stated.
Yes, Emporer is king, if that is what you mean.
Quote:
Rome. Millions died in the arendas and circuses. Millions died in the Inquisition. All by Rome.
Scripture may not mention them even though they will all be remembered at a time yet to be.
Not mentioned by name. But most assuredly by results.
Quote:

Yes. But this is talking about Jerusalem, not the Woman or any of the issues laid out in Revelation.
You are trying to merge two separate issues into one.
Jersulem is never called Mystery Babylon. Daniel lays out Mystery Babyon. Jerusalem is not to be found there.
Neither is Rome mentioned by name, Jerusalem is likened to Sodom and Egypt, Rome never is.
Correct.
But Rome most assuredly is findable in every given description. Jerusalem is most assuredly not.
Quote:

John the Baptist did not write any book of the Bible.
It does not say who wrote about him prophetically died. It says those who preached Jesus. The OT saints did not preach Jesus.
But the millions of NT saints who died at the hands of Rome most assuredly did.

What hespoke was recorded, so yes he cause things to be written in a very certain way;
By that logic, so did Satan.
Joh:1:15:
Quote:
Is the below preaching Christ;

Isa:53:1:
Who hath believed our report?
and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
Isa:53:2:
For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant,
and as a root out of a dry ground:
he hath no form nor comeliness;
and when we shall see him,
there is no beauty that we should desire him.
Isa:53:3:
He is despised and rejected of men;
a man of sorrows,
and acquainted with grief:
and we hid as it were our faces from him;
he was despised,
and we esteemed him not.
Isa:53:4:
Surely he hath borne our griefs,
and carried our sorrows:
yet we did esteem him stricken,
smitten of God,
and afflicted.
Isa:53:5:
But he was wounded for our transgressions,
he was bruised for our iniquities:
the chastisement of our peace was upon him;
and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa:53:6:
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned every one to his own way;
and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa:53:7:
He was oppressed,
and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth:
he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb,
so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa:53:8:
He was taken from prison and from judgment:
and who shall declare his generation?
for he was cut off out of the land of the living:
for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isa:53:9:
And he made his grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death;
because he had done no violence,
neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Isa:53:10:
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him;
he hath put him to grief:
when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,
he shall see his seed,
he shall prolong his days,
and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa:53:11:
He shall see of the travail of his soul,
and shall be satisfied:
by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many;
for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa:53:12:
Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong;

It says they preached Jesus. The name Jesus was not even known.

This prophecy, not preaching.
Saints who were alive and died at the time of Christ were raised, as was Lazarus. Not resurrected, as Christ was.
The Bible calls all believers saints. OT and NT. But it does not call OT saints preachers of Jesus.
The did not fear the name of Jesus because they did not even know his name, then.
Wow! You sound all Catholic or Orthodox with this saints must have miracle powers stuff.
Read the letters to the curches. Read the churches of Revelation.
Saint means one set apart for God. All believers are set apart for God, powerful or not. And all saints have a Gift of the Holy Spirit per the Bible. Not restricted to what you are trying to limit it to here.
Saint's are not special believers. All believers are saints, some with extra special roles to fulfil.
Are the ones in the Churches saints before they overcome what they aresaid to have to overcome?


Sainthood is not earned. It comes by repenting by faith and grace.

That is just down right flatly none Biblical.
Go here (http://www.biblegateway.com/) and search saint. Now tell me all those people were running around healing everyone. That every one could heal and such.
If you mean everyone that has a gift, then indeed all Church believers are saints, for all have a gift. Every last one.
Are signs following a sign from God that these have been sent or not? Many people are wise to what the Scriptures say, many more have an opinion.


Christ says not all who do this were ever his.
No one has to give a sign to prove they are a saint.
All of Israel is restored, as are other lands. But Babylon, the land, and Rome, will never rise again from their destruction.
Not all of the Dead Sea is restored, the marshy areas are not.
Where the bones are buried is not inhabitaed;

Still, Israel and Jerusalem are restored. Rome is not.


That has nothing to do with Christ in the OT.
Most assuredly his First and Second Comings, his MK rule and his place in eternity were future to the OT and some still future to now.
The Second person of the Trinity, Christ, is in his glorified flesh for eternity. The Father and Holy Spirit remain spirit for eternity.
But there was no Christ, God in human flesh, until the Incarnation.
The Messiah was known about

Testimony of Jesus. Not prophecy.
The name Jesus was not even known. The preached Law and God.
So what on the wings? The First Beast is a composite of all 4. It has aspects of each. Showing it is the mature Mystery Babylon.
One head of the First Beast represents Neb.
You forget the Beast gets its identify from Babylon. And the statue is the image of the First Beast. Remember old Neb's gold statue of himself?
Now, do you see the First Beast of Daniel in Revelation? All aspects of the Statue and Beasts are in the First Beast.
And they all ruled over the Jews, not all ruled over the Romans.

Who ruled, not who was ruled, is the issue.

Silver, Medo-Pesia, a twin kinged Empire. One Mede King and one Persian King. Most assuredly I can find two kings.
And post assuredly two in the iron. John states a king who is, being the Roman Empire at his moment in time, and one who would come next. Another Roman.
Rome most assuredly split into to two Romes.
And that is the reason for the words about one of the four that followed Ales in Daniel 8, what Rome did during Christ's time, upto the destruction in 70AD.

No. Rome hand not divided at that time.
Not one issue, there, dealing with 70 AD.

But they are not listed in the Statue. And they are not called Beasts.
The 4th Beast is none of them, but Rome.
Rome never mocked God, they even let the Jews keep this part of their culture.

Rome, both Pagen and Catholic mocked God by killing saints.
And by demanding Christian reject Christ and bow to the Emporer as god and the Pope as Christ on earth.

But one king and one kingdom, composed of 4 unified.
No. The Ten Toes.
No. It says the little horn will rise out of the Ten. Not one word of the ten most corrupt men in the world.
Again. The legs, Rome, collapsed into Ten Empires. A non debatable historical fact.
They will remerge. As is reality today in the EU. Out of that merger will rise the king who was, is not and will be. And as stated, will be one of the 5 who were.
Not a resurrected man. But the demon of a man in a new man, being the 8th king.
Apparently it is debatable.

Not if you read literally and semantically.
You are trying to fit the verses into your doctrine instead of reading all the verses and then developing our doctrine.
Two words for Prince in Daniel. One meaning a Jewish Prince and one a Gentile. You call them the same.
After means what is immediately next. You define it as any time after, with all kinds of other events inbetween.
That is not reading grammatically.
The AC will be ruling the kingdom 3.5 years before Satan is cast down.

Never said otherwise. The whole earth will suffer.
But that still does not make Jerusalem Mystery Babylon.

No. 70th Week is future. Christ died almost 40 years earlier, at the end of the 69th Week. Not in the 70th.
We already covered the grammar of that before. But here you go again trying to change the meaning of 'after' again.

Again, we covered the linquistics of the prince and I showed you the meaning makes it impossible for the second prince to be Christ.
Not to mention you are totally non-literal on the 70th Week, with nothing but theory on what you believe.

There is nothing Church about the Woman or her associates.

I'm not going to get into this at the moment.


Because it goes back to the Prince issue.
You have Catholicism or Orthodox in your background, don't you? They get all hyper about the Woman being Rome and try to blame Jerusalem.
I already explained how I came to read Scripture in another thread in the past few weeks. Did I say anything about what you wrote above, no I didn't.

It was an innocent question. You just hit a lot of triggers.
They do not define the saints killed.
Rome, pagan and Catholic killed millions upon millions.
that isn't in the Holy Bible

Neither is your declaration it is Jerusalem.

Pagan Rome fell.
But you prove my point. Rome, itself, has not fallen, thus, to date is not a widow or suffering woe.
Israel was a widow from the land for almost 2,000 years and has suffered greatly.
You might want to re-read what being a widow is, exile is not being a widow, God still heard and answered prayers in Daniel's time and they were in exile then.


As he hears all prayers.
Plus you did not look up what widow means. It fits Jerusalem, not Rome.
Strong's Number: 5503 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/browse.cgi?number=5503&version=kjv)Original WordWord Originchvrafeminine of a presumed derivative apparently from the base of (5490 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5490&version=kjv)) through the idea of deficiencyTransliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5503&version=kjv#Legend) EntryChera9:440,1313Phonetic SpellingParts of Speechkhay'-rah http://bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=5503g) Noun Feminine Definition

a widow
metaph. a city stripped of its inhabitants and riches is represented under the figure of a widow

Conquered, not destroyed.
During that great Earthquake all the cities in all the nations will also fall at the same time;
Re:16:19:
And the great city was divided into three parts,
and the cities of the nations fell:
and great Babylon came in remembrance before God,
to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

So there you have Rome(and many others), does this also exclude the nations as hosting the city that is split?


You are not paying attention to what is said.
It says, in the 7th Bowl, destroyed to never rise again or be populated again.
Jerusalem is not totally destroyed or all the inhabitants killed. It rises again and is populated.
Rome does not do so. It is barren and empty forever.

Where does it say the MK is sin free? Never said.
In fact it says there will be evil people born, there will be birth and there will be death.
You are trying to put the NJ and no earthly sinful flesh into the MK on the New Earth.
We have discussed that before and I showed you the verses showing sin and so on then.

There you have a static population for the thousand years
No. I posted, to you before, where in the MK it says there is evil, death, birth, aging and so on during the MK.
You never were able to deal with those verses.
Do I need to find and repost them?
False. Jerusalem is inhabited and maintained by the Jews.
No where does it say Christ rebuilds the Temple himself.
Zec:6:12:

A king is always said to do the building. But he does it via his subjects.

Hmmm. I thought you talked about a sinless New Earth and such.
OK.

Re:21:26:
And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
Re:21:27:
And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth,
neither whatsoever worketh abomination,
or maketh a lie:
but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.


That is after the MK.
After Judgement Day just how do those get from Heaven (Great White Throne) to a new Earth? Remember the old one being burnt up and all that were still there;

Only the damned are at the White Throne. That is the Second Resurrection.
The just go there when it is created. The damned are cast into the Lake.
The glorified have the same super abilities demonstrated by Christ to the Apostles.

Later (I hope you can read through my poor editing, it is late and I'm sacked)
Understand.

[CoreIssue]

OK. On there not being a static population in the MK, as you claim.

Isaiah 65
20 "Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
he who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere youth;
he who fails to reach [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=65&version=31#fen-NIV-18918a)] a hundred
will be considered accursed.

21 They will build houses and dwell in them;
they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 No longer will they build houses and others live in them,
or plant and others eat.
For as the days of a tree,
so will be the days of my people;
my chosen ones will long enjoy
the works of their hands. 23 They will not toil in vain
or bear children doomed to misfortune;
for they will be a people blessed by the LORD,
they and their descendants with them.

Right here you have child birth, death and lifespans of centuries.

Most assuredly living earthly flesh enters the MK and there is everyday life including home building, farming, marriage, birth and death.

Read the rest of the chapter for some of the other issues I mentioned.

And the short time is clearly stated as after the 1,000 years. Not 5 months long, which is within the Trib.

[MHz]

Hi Core,
Hi MHz,
Yep. Very serious.
China has been able to field an army that big for decades already. Have bragged about it.
What is 200 million to a population over 1 billion?
No, not the best army, but an army indeed.
My beloved brother, if you insist in this, China is closer to Jerusalem than what eastern country, your own country, from Jerusalem America is the far east.

I suggest you compare the colors and such of that army to the colors and such of China. They are the same.
Well you were wrong about scarlet belonging only to Rome.

Should we go right back to the beginning?
What verse seems 'out of place'?

And how would you describe a modern army of tanks and artillary in the days of John?
Well I wouldn't start with four angels are unbound, that's a fact. The forces available today,from all countries, part of the 1/3 of man that are killled. Fallen agels verses man, what a concept, who would have thought, who would have said, Oh yeah, it has already been thought and has aleady been spoke, now remains the 'be done'.
Minumise heavenly beings as much as you want, when push comes to shove 'our armies' are going to get there collective asses kicked hard, China and your country included.
You like to focus attention on the EU as the 10 kings the beast supports, who in return give their kingdom's (those in it) as support to the beast, yet you don't/can't see kingdoms as being more than one nation. Ten men are promised control of the 10 most important (desires) of man, that is who even these days will put their wants/desires ove all others. Usually to the sorrow of many.

Do you really think, in any of the Biblical prophecies, OT or NT, where they talk about armies and such, that they are going to be cavalry?
Where does the army come from? Not the Pit.
Do you think this prophecy is worthless words;
M't:17:20:
And Jesus said unto them,
Because of your unbelief:
for verily I say unto you,
If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed,
ye shall say unto this mountain,
Remove hence to yonder place;
and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

You are equating our power (in all its wonder) to the power of Heavenly Angels, with Christ it is accomplished with nothing but a spoken word, even all we can see (on this earth and all we can see above)was spoken into existance. God spoke and the Holy Spirit accomplished what was spoken, that is quite clear on the opening page of the Holy Bible.

BTW from where the four are unbound to China is not even remotely the same place.


Of course I do.
Then you have no problem in a plain understanding of these verses;
Ge:6:1:
And it came to pass,
when men began to multiply on the face of the earth,
and daughters were born unto them,
Ge:6:2:
That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair;
and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Ge:6:3:
And the LORD said,
My spirit shall not always strive with man,
for that he also is flesh:
yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
Ge:6:4:
There were giants in the earth in those days;
and also after that,
when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men,
and they bare children to them,
the same became mighty men which were of old,
men of renown.
Ge:6:5:
And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth,
and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

See any angelic activity with man in the above?


For the I don't how many times, demons are not fallen angels. Fallen angels are in the Pit per Jude.
For now, that is not a permanent place for them, show me the verse that puts them at Judgement Day, and a dead person or angel does not have to be in chains, these are bound indicating awareness without the ability to even move. If they are never allowed into Heaven again then they stay on the earth when it waxes old, you yourself say no man is there as all men are at the Great White Throne, in your case on the way to the Lake. I could give you a whole chapter about these but this is beyound your current thinking level.

Actually, you need to read. At least 1/3 of the earth's populatiion is already dead from the Seals. So, in a world in such turmoil, a marching army of this size we reach well into Europe.
Who do you think that army will be going after? The AC and the EU. Not to mention wanting to settel old grievances against Russia.
Why then? Because the EU has defeated Russia and her allies and taken total control of all the oil fields and such.
An angelic army has no need of oil, nor sleep, nor food, nor water.
The are not Holy Angels (you did call China more or less evil right). Sometimes if you don't know the answer it is best to just say that, rather than like a Jew say something even if it makes no sense. You have the bound angels going after the AC and EU. Now you want to include Russia and they could just aswell be sitting back watching ll this craziness, step onto their soil and it will not be just sitting. Russia isn't mentioned in these verses;

Da:11:41:
He shall enter also into the glorious land,
and many countries shall be overthrown:
but these shall escape out of his hand,
even Edom,
and Moab,
and the chief of the children of Ammon.
Da:11:42:
He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries:
and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
Da:11:43:
But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver,
and over all the precious things of Egypt:
and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.
Da:11:44:
But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him:
therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy,
and utterly to make away many.
Da:11:45:
And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain;
yet he shall come to his end,
and none shall help him.

If China and Russia are the north and East then the are resistors to the deception, who would have thought that eh?


Yea, China.
If this is the first time you have heard this, I am shocked. Many, many scholars and theologans hold to this.
So, if they also think the sun and moon were created in these verses;
Ge:1:14:
And God said,
Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night;
and let them be for signs,
and for seasons,
and for days,
and years:
Ge:1:15:
And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Ge:1:16:
And God made two great lights;
the greater light to rule the day,
and the lesser light to rule the night:
he made the stars also.
Ge:1:17:
And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Ge:1:18:
And to rule over the day and over the night,
and to divide the light from the darkness:
and God saw that it was good.
Ge:1:19:
And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

This is after the seas were created, the final component that established our current orbit around the sun, the relationship between the earths's and moon's time of one orbit and the rotation of the earth. The final factor was the weight of water, Since the formation of the seas the earth weight was finalized. Before you argue about this also just ask someone if Earth's orbit would cahange from when there was no water and when we have our current water supply. I used 70lbs/gallon and that was enough to cause a change if you used all water available on Earth today, seas and atmosphere only only.

Is that enough to make you agreeable? What if they all heard this from just one?

Re:9:13:
And the sixth angel sounded,
and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

Again, angel means messenger or envoy. It does not mean 'angel' here.
This page has a second defination, http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/3/1154218841-7826.html

Exactly in the same context of the 3 evil spirits of the False Trinity, in the 6th Bowl, going out to gather the world armies for Armageddon.
Evil spirts gathering an army of men.

Which China has been able to do for years.

How would you describe mobile army in the days of John?
Soldiers rode horses then. Armor rides mechanized 'horses.'

Colors. The colors of China.

A tank roars and spouts smoke and fire when it shoots.

Yep. Good description of artillary hitting a target.
Or, mobile rocket and missile launchers.

Yep. Tanks and such can fire both forward and backwards.

Barrel pointing backwards.

Tank turret, in example.
Four (messengers) kill 1/3 of mankind. That must be quite some message;
Re:9:15:
And the four angels were loosed,
which were prepared for an hour,
and a day,
and a month,
and a year,
for to slay the third part of men.

Meaing the followers of the AC do not see the AC brought this down on them. They stay with him.
He is their 'god' but cannot save them. Yet they keep worshipping him.
And the lifestyle he supports also seems to be described, theseare being killed by the (messengers), told you he would kill even his own just to convince a dew he was (the light);
Re:9:20:
And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands,
that they should not worship devils,
and idols of gold,
and silver,
and brass,
and stone,
and of wood:
which neither can see,
nor hear,
nor walk:
Re:9:21:
Neither repented they of their murders,
nor of their sorceries,
nor of their fornication,
nor of their thefts.

How does John describe technology that words did not even exist for, in his day?
As for this Holy Watchers stuff, that concept does not exist in the Bible, fallen angels are in the Pit and there is nothing Holy about them.

The question is how does Christ describe this, John repeats, If Christ say four angels are unbound then , what, you care to change this?
Da:4:13:
I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed,
and,
behold,
a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven;

Da:4:17:
This matter is by the decree of the watchers,
and the demand by the word of the holy ones:
to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men,
and giveth it to whomsoever he will,
and setteth up over it the basest of men.

Da:4:23:
And whereas the king saw a watcher and an holy one coming down from heaven,
and saying,
Hew the tree down,
and destroy it;
yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth,
even with a band of iron and brass,
in the tender grass of the field;
and let it be wet with the dew of heaven,
and let his portion be with the beasts of the field,
till seven times pass over him;

What? China good guys? Where did you get that idea from>
There is nothing wrong with my reasoning or logic.

Not from you even though these are your words "Who do you think that army will be going after? The AC and the EU. Not to mention wanting to settel old grievances against Russia."

Is MK. Not Trib.
Isa:5:19:
That say,
Let him make speed,
and hasten his work,
that we may see it:
and let the counsel of the Holy One of Israel draw nigh and come,
that we may know it!
Isa:5:20:
Woe unto them that call evil good,
and good evil;
that put darkness for light,
and light for darkness;
that put bitter for sweet,
and sweet for bitter!
Isa:5:21:
Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes,
and prudent in their own sight!
Isa:5:22:
Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine,
and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
Isa:5:23:
Which justify the wicked for reward,
and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!
Third woe, TDOTL.

And now you have jumped forward in time to the 6th Bowl, which is the gathering of the bad guys to Armageddon.
5th vial, they are in darkness and pain;
Da:11:45:
And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain;
yet he shall come to his end,
and none shall help him.

Nobody is coming to help him at this point in time, anybody on his side is already there.

Da:8:25:
And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand;
and he shall magnify himself in his heart,
and by peace shall destroy many:
he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes;
but he shall be broken without hand.

The 5th vial is the last line in the above verse.

Never said they are demons.
And demons don't need rivers dried up to get across.

No, but these do;
Isa:5:26:
And he will lift up an ensign to the nations from far,
and will hiss unto them from the end of the earth:
and,
behold,
they shall come with speed swiftly:
Isa:5:27:
None shall be weary nor stumble among them;
none shall slumber nor sleep;
neither shall the girdle of their loins be loosed,
nor the latchet of their shoes be broken:
Isa:5:28:
Whose arrows are sharp,
and all their bows bent,
their horses' hoofs shall be counted like flint,
and their wheels like a whirlwind:
Isa:5:29:
Their roaring shall be like a lion,
they shall roar like young lions:
yea,
they shall roar,
and lay hold of the prey,
and shall carry it away safe,
and none shall deliver it.
Isa:5:30:
And in that day they shall roar against them like the roaring of the sea:
and if one look unto the land,
behold darkness and sorrow,
and the light is darkened in the heavens thereof.


Later

[MHz]

Hi again Core,
OK. On there not being a static population in the MK, as you claim.

Right here you have child birth, death and lifespans of centuries.

Most assuredly living earthly flesh enters the MK and there is everyday life including home building, farming, marriage, birth and death.

Read the rest of the chapter for some of the other issues I mentioned.

And the short time is clearly stated as after the 1,000 years. Not 5 months long, which is within the Trib.

Read the first part of the chapter and you will find who 'they' are, His servants alrady have rewards while the 'they' are left without hope;

Isa:65:12:
Therefore will I number you to the sword,
and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter:
because when I called,
ye did not answer;
when I spake,
ye did not hear;
but did evil before mine eyes,
and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
Isa:65:13:
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD,
Behold, my servants shall eat,
but ye shall be hungry:
behold,
my servants shall drink,
but ye shall be thirsty:
behold,
my servants shall rejoice,
but ye shall be ashamed:
Isa:65:14:
Behold,
my servants shall sing for joy of heart,
but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart,
and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
Isa:65:15:
And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen:
for the Lord GOD shall slay thee,
and call his servants by another name:
Isa:65:16:
That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth;
and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth;
because the former troubles are forgotten,
and because they are hid from mine eyes.
Isa:65:17:
For,
behold,
I create new heavens and a new earth:
and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

If Christ is speaking to 'the rest' above then it is also a reference to what they did before Judgement Day and since 'they' are being addresses as 'ye' in the above verses it is also them being addressed in the verses you posted.
Would Christ's servants have troubles? Not according to the above.

Tell me you accept this and I will withdraw the comment in my previous post that you weren't ready.

Later

[CoreIssue]

Hi MHz,

As always, we each are entitled to our own beliefs.


Originally Posted by CoreIssue
Hi MHz,
Yep. Very serious.
China has been able to field an army that big for decades already. Have bragged about it.
What is 200 million to a population over 1 billion?
No, not the best army, but an army indeed.

My beloved brother, if you insist in this, China is closer to Jerusalem than what eastern country, your own country, from Jerusalem America is the far east.
Which as what to do with this? I don't get your point.
Actually, they consider America west.

I suggest you compare the colors and such of that army to the colors and such of China. They are the same.
Well you were wrong about scarlet belonging only to Rome.

Absolutey not wrong about scarlet being a color of Rome. It has been for thousands of years.
Should we go right back to the beginning?
What verse seems 'out of place'?
Which regard? You are being too vague.

And how would you describe a modern army of tanks and artillary in the days of John?
Well I wouldn't start with four angels are unbound, that's a fact.
Not angels. Demon messengers.
And they are not part of the army. Never hinted at being.
The forces available today,from all countries, part of the 1/3 of man that are killled.
What are you talking about here? I am not following you at all. Sorry.
Fallen agels verses man, what a concept, who would have thought, who would have said, Oh yeah, it has already been thought and has aleady been spoke, now remains the 'be done'.

:scratch:
Minumise heavenly beings as much as you want, when push comes to shove 'our armies' are going to get there collective asses kicked hard, China and your country included.

Look. It would not take 200 million demons to do great harm. One could wipe out the army of any country, if allowed.
You like to focus attention on the EU as the 10 kings the beast supports, who in return give their kingdom's (those in it) as support to the beast,
Nowhere does it say the Beast gives them their kingdoms. It says they are given their kingdoms to give to the Beast.
yet you don't/can't see kingdoms as being more than one nation. Ten men are promised control of the 10 most important (desires) of man, that is who even these days will put their wants/desires ove all others. Usually to the sorrow of many.

That is nonsense. Desires? Not in the Bible, anywhere.
States 10 nations. The Ten Nations that formed as the Ten Toes.
So, if you want to get exacting, the Ten represent more than Ten, today.
It is the overall region incompassing these old nations that is being referred to.

Do you really think, in any of the Biblical prophecies, OT or NT, where they talk about armies and such, that they are going to be cavalry?
Where does the army come from? Not the Pit.
Do you think this prophecy is worthless words;
M't:17:20:
And Jesus said unto them,
Because of your unbelief:
for verily I say unto you,
If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed,
ye shall say unto this mountain,
Remove hence to yonder place;
and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Why cannot you stay on topic?
I asked you how words would be used to describe what words did not exist for, in ancient times.
You are not answering.
You are equating our power (in all its wonder) to the power of Heavenly Angels,
They are not Heavenly angels. Even if they were angels, which they are not, they would not be Heavenly angels.
with Christ it is accomplished with nothing but a spoken word,
So, God and Christ do not use earthly people and things as tools. Sigh.
even all we can see (on this earth and all we can see above)was spoken into existance.
So what? You are just inventing arguments here to get around the fact God uses physical things, as well has supernatural, as he sees fit.
God spoke and the Holy Spirit accomplished what was spoken, that is quite clear on the opening page of the Holy Bible.

You are so far off topic.
BTW from where the four are unbound to China is not even remotely the same place.
But it is the location of the entrance of the Pit. So where do you believe they are released from?
The rise from there and go to China. As the 3, in the 6th Bowl, come out of their hosts and go to many countries.
Bad logic, MHz. Truly.

Of course I do.
Then you have no problem in a plain understanding of these verses;
Ge:6:1:
And it came to pass,
when men began to multiply on the face of the earth,
and daughters were born unto them,
Ge:6:2:
That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair;
and they took them wives of all which they chose.
No. I don't have any problem understand sons of God also means men in covenant relationship with God.
Ge:6:3:
And the LORD said,
My spirit shall not always strive with man,
for that he also is flesh:
yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
Ge:6:4:
There were giants in the earth in those days;
and also after that,
when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men,

Goliath was a Nephilim as well. And he did not come from a union of saints with unsaved women, as is being mentioned here.
You grammar is bad, I have to tell you. The passage does not say the giants came from that union. It says at the same time one happened, the other was happening as well.
and they bare children to them,
the same became mighty men which were of old,
men of renown.
Yes, when the followers of God weakened and took unsaved for their wives, they had children by them. Happens all the time when there is sex.
Ge:6:5:
And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth,
and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

See any angelic activity with man in the above?
None one speck.
Linquist do not support this doctrine. The recognize sons of God apply to humans as well.
Further, angels are spirits. They do not have flesh. They cannot reproduce.
Even more, angels are not male and female. They cannot reproduce. There are no baby angels.
They are a company, not a race.
This is an old doctrine that some still believe. But it is a nonsense doctrine.

For the I don't how many times, demons are not fallen angels. Fallen angels are in the Pit per Jude.
For now, that is not a permanent place for them, show me the verse that puts them at Judgement Day,
Jude
6And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.
There is one. Kept in Hell until Judgement Day. Hell was created for fallen angels, not Man.
And here is a second. They are in Hell and all in Hell is judged and cast into the Lake.
There are no saint in the Pit. More than just humans are cast into the Lake
Revelation 20
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
There is no other eternal judgement day in the Bible. Here, and only here, are eternal sentences pronounced.
and a dead person or angel does not have to be in chains, these are bound indicating awareness without the ability to even move.
Really? So the Pit and Hell are not literal places?
If they are never allowed into Heaven again then they stay on the earth when it waxes old,
They are not on the earth. They are in Hell. We are told so in Jude.
Demons are not fallen angels.
you yourself say no man is there as all men are at the Great White Throne, in your case on the way to the Lake. I could give you a whole chapter about these but this is beyound your current thinking level.

Actually, with respect, you could give me nothing but theory and non-literal spin. We are told fallen angels and the doomed dead are in Hell. Period.
We are told they are there until the White Throne Judgement. Period.
All your resurrected FP and loosed fallen angels is never said in the Bible. In fact it is in direct contradiction to what is said.
But you cling to it.

Actually, you need to read. At least 1/3 of the earth's populatiion is already dead from the Seals. So, in a world in such turmoil, a marching army of this size we reach well into Europe.
Who do you think that army will be going after? The AC and the EU. Not to mention wanting to settel old grievances against Russia.
Why then? Because the EU has defeated Russia and her allies and taken total control of all the oil fields and such.
An angelic army has no need of oil, nor sleep, nor food, nor water.
It is not an angelic army.
The are not Holy Angels (you did call China more or less evil right).
It is.
Sometimes if you don't know the answer it is best to just say that, rather than like a Jew say something even if it makes no sense.
I have given proof they are not fallen angels. You refuse to just read Jude, in example. Just ignore it because it does not fit your doctrine.
Mid Trib is not their Judgement Day.
I have also give proof as the identity of army, by matching up its coloars with the one country that can field that army.
My evidence far outweighs yours. But I am the one who needs to back off my claim?
You have the bound angels going after the AC and EU.
You are not thinking.
The bound demons antagonize the armies to attack. And to attack they must have an enemy they hate.
China hates Russia and Europe. What a grand opportunity to do something about it. Especially when the AC takes over all the oil fields.
Now you want to include Russia and they could just aswell be sitting back watching ll this craziness, step onto their soil and it will not be just sitting. Russia isn't mentioned in these verses;

Russia and its allies is the army the AC defeats right before he enters Israel.
Da:11:41:
He shall enter also into the glorious land,
and many countries shall be overthrown:
but these shall escape out of his hand,
even Edom,
and Moab,
and the chief of the children of Ammon.
Da:11:42:
He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries:
and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
Da:11:43:
But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver,
and over all the precious things of Egypt:
and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.
Da:11:44:
But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him:
therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy,
and utterly to make away many.
Da:11:45:
And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain;
yet he shall come to his end,
and none shall help him.

If China and Russia are the north and East then the are resistors to the deception, who would have thought that eh?

I never said they were the north and east.
Yea, China.
If this is the first time you have heard this, I am shocked. Many, many scholars and theologans hold to this.
So, if they also think the sun and moon were created in these verses;
Ge:1:14:

This is after the seas were created, the final component that established our current orbit around the sun, the relationship between the earths's and moon's time of one orbit and the rotation of the earth. The final factor was the weight of water, Since the formation of the seas the earth weight was finalized. Before you argue about this also just ask someone if Earth's orbit would cahange from when there was no water and when we have our current water supply. I used 70lbs/gallon and that was enough to cause a change if you used all water available on Earth today, seas and atmosphere only only.

Is that enough to make you agreeable? What if they all heard this from just one?


What has that got to do with you never having heard this doctrine before.

Re:9:13:
And the sixth angel sounded,
and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

Again, angel means messenger or envoy. It does not mean 'angel' here.
This page has a second defination, http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_d...8841-7826.html
And the first cannot apply because they are bound until Judgement Day.
Exactly in the same context of the 3 evil spirits of the False Trinity, in the 6th Bowl, going out to gather the world armies for Armageddon.
Evil spirts gathering an army of men.

Which China has been able to do for years.

How would you describe mobile army in the days of John?
Soldiers rode horses then. Armor rides mechanized 'horses.'

Colors. The colors of China.

A tank roars and spouts smoke and fire when it shoots.

Yep. Good description of artillary hitting a target.
Or, mobile rocket and missile launchers.

Yep. Tanks and such can fire both forward and backwards.

Barrel pointing backwards.

Tank turret, in example.
Four (messengers) kill 1/3 of mankind. That must be quite some message;
Re:9:15:
And the four angels were loosed,
which were prepared for an hour,
and a day,
and a month,
and a year,
for to slay the third part of men.
Sure is. And China listens.

Meaing the followers of the AC do not see the AC brought this down on them. They stay with him.
He is their 'god' but cannot save them. Yet they keep worshipping him.
And the lifestyle he supports also seems to be described, theseare being killed by the (messengers), told you he would kill even his own just to convince a dew he was (the light);
Re:9:20:
And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands,
that they should not worship devils,
and idols of gold,
and silver,
and brass,
and stone,
and of wood:
which neither can see,
nor hear,
nor walk:
Re:9:21:
Neither repented they of their murders,
nor of their sorceries,
nor of their fornication,
nor of their thefts.

Satan is a liar. Life means nothing to him.
Who says Satan sends them?

How does John describe technology that words did not even exist for, in his day?
As for this Holy Watchers stuff, that concept does not exist in the Bible, fallen angels are in the Pit and there is nothing Holy about them.

The question is how does Christ describe this, John repeats, If Christ say four angels are unbound then , what, you care to change this?
Right. Just disregard the description of the army.
The 4 do not do the killing directly. The army does, for them.
Da:4:13:
I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed,
and,
behold,
a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven;

Da:4:17:
This matter is by the decree of the watchers,
and the demand by the word of the holy ones:
to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men,
and giveth it to whomsoever he will,
and setteth up over it the basest of men.

Da:4:23:
And whereas the king saw a watcher and an holy one coming down from heaven,
and saying,
Hew the tree down,
and destroy it;
yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth,
even with a band of iron and brass,
in the tender grass of the field;
and let it be wet with the dew of heaven,
and let his portion be with the beasts of the field,
till seven times pass over him;

What has a prophecy about Neb and his life got to do with anything here?
What? China good guys? Where did you get that idea from>
There is nothing wrong with my reasoning or logic.

Not from you even though these are your words "Who do you think that army will be going after? The AC and the EU. Not to mention wanting to settel old grievances against Russia."

And it still does not make China a good guy. Or the 4 messengers.

Is MK. Not Trib.
Isa:5:19:
That say,
Let him make speed,
and hasten his work,
that we may see it:
and let the counsel of the Holy One of Israel draw nigh and come,
that we may know it!
Isa:5:20:
Woe unto them that call evil good,
and good evil;
that put darkness for light,
and light for darkness;
that put bitter for sweet,
and sweet for bitter!
Isa:5:21:
Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes,
and prudent in their own sight!
Isa:5:22:
Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine,
and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
Isa:5:23:
Which justify the wicked for reward,
and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!
Third woe, TDOTL.

No.

And now you have jumped forward in time to the 6th Bowl, which is the gathering of the bad guys to Armageddon.
5th vial, they are in darkness and pain;
Da:11:45:
And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain;
yet he shall come to his end,
and none shall help him.

Nobody is coming to help him at this point in time, anybody on his side is already there.


That is not the 6th Bowl. You are back at Mid, again.
Da:8:25:
And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand;
and he shall magnify himself in his heart,
and by peace shall destroy many:
he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes;
but he shall be broken without hand.

The 5th vial is the last line in the above verse.

This is the AC and treaties such as opening of the 70th Week/First Seal and the destruction closing the 70th Week/Trib.
It is not the 5th Bowl.

Never said they are demons.
And demons don't need rivers dried up to get across.

No, but these do;
Isa:5:26:
And he will lift up an ensign to the nations from far,
and will hiss unto them from the end of the earth:
and,
behold,
they shall come with speed swiftly:
Isa:5:27:
None shall be weary nor stumble among them;
none shall slumber nor sleep;
neither shall the girdle of their loins be loosed,
nor the latchet of their shoes be broken:
Isa:5:28:
Whose arrows are sharp,
and all their bows bent,
their horses' hoofs shall be counted like flint,
and their wheels like a whirlwind:
Isa:5:29:
Their roaring shall be like a lion,
they shall roar like young lions:
yea,
they shall roar,
and lay hold of the prey,
and shall carry it away safe,
and none shall deliver it.
Isa:5:30:
And in that day they shall roar against them like the roaring of the sea:
and if one look unto the land,
behold darkness and sorrow,
and the light is darkened in the heavens thereof.

Sounds like Mid Trib.
Later
Later

[CoreIssue]

Hi again Core,


Read the first part of the chapter and you will find who 'they' are, His servants alrady have rewards while the 'they' are left without hope;

Isa:65:12:
Therefore will I number you to the sword,
and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter:
because when I called,
ye did not answer;
when I spake,
ye did not hear;
but did evil before mine eyes,
and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
Isa:65:13:
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD,
Behold, my servants shall eat,
but ye shall be hungry:
behold,
my servants shall drink,
but ye shall be thirsty:
behold,
my servants shall rejoice,
but ye shall be ashamed:
Isa:65:14:
Behold,
my servants shall sing for joy of heart,
but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart,
and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
Isa:65:15:
And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen:
for the Lord GOD shall slay thee,
and call his servants by another name:
Isa:65:16:
That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth;
and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth;
because the former troubles are forgotten,
and because they are hid from mine eyes.
Isa:65:17:
For,
behold,
I create new heavens and a new earth:
and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

If Christ is speaking to 'the rest' above then it is also a reference to what they did before Judgement Day and since 'they' are being addresses as 'ye' in the above verses it is also them being addressed in the verses you posted.
Would Christ's servants have troubles? Not according to the above.

Tell me you accept this and I will withdraw the comment in my previous post that you weren't ready.

Later
First, this is not after Judgement Day.

Second, after Judgement Day the old earth does not exist.

Third, after Judgment Day there are no births, deaths, aging, planting, harvesting or any such thing.

This is not the eternal New Earth.

And you did not address the simple, direct verse statement that there is birth, death and evil on the earth talked about.

Again, you exclude what you don't want to deal with.

The earth is most assuredly a new earth during the MK. But it is not the totally New Earth of Eternity.

[MHz]

Hi Core,
I can see where admitting fallen angels have roles that will be fullfilled during a coming tribulation would have problems for the doctrine you believe.
All through the OT the term 'sons of God' refer to angels;

Job:1:6:
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD,
and Satan came also among them.

Job:2:1:
Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD,
and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

Job:38:7:
When the morning stars sang together,
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Three times in this one book it refers to only what can be angels, to deny the two references in the very first book would point to these also being angels, of the fallen kind.

Now when angels are referenced as being part of tribulation then the angel of the abyss is not from man, he was originally from Heaven, and when it say four angels are unbound at a certain time that is also a reference to fallen ones, it would seem that these four also have quite some power even after being cast from Heaven.

The other issue is about those verses that are about 'the rest'. I indicated you wouldn't understand whay God has in store for them. Man is divided into faithfull servants and 'the rest' at Christ's coming. The faithfull servants have a different future than those who build and inhabit;
Re:7:15:
Therefore are they before the throne of God,
and serve him day and night in his temple:
and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Re:22:3:
And there shall be no more curse:
but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it;
and his servants shall serve him:

Here is another reference to 'the rest';
Isa:60:19: The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.
Isa:60:20:
Thy sun shall no more go down;
neither shall thy moon withdraw itself:
for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light,
and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.
Isa:60:21:
Thy people also shall be all righteous:
they shall inherit the land for ever,
the branch of my planting,
the work of my hands,
that I may be glorified.
Isa:60:22:
A little one shall become a thousand,
and a small one a strong nation:
I the LORD will hasten it in his time.

The timing is set by verse 19 in that;
Re:22:5:
And there shall be no night there;
and they need no candle,
neither light of the sun;
for the Lord God giveth them light:
and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Verse 22 says there will be many births, all from 'the rest' as those who were alive for the thousand years would seem to stay in New Jerusalem, as a static number of priests and kings to God and the Lamb.

Later

[CoreIssue]

Hey MHz,

Hi Core,
I can see where admitting fallen angels have roles that will be fullfilled during a coming tribulation would have problems for the doctrine you believe.
All through the OT the term 'sons of God' refer to angels;
Why should I admit to something that is not true.

You just will not deal with Jude because it denies your doctrine in the Trib.

Job:1:6:
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD,
and Satan came also among them.

Nothing more need to be said beyond this verse

Notice it says Satan is not included as a Son of God?

Son of God means one in covenant relationship with God. Fallen angels are most assuredly not in covenant relationship with God.

There are the Angels that did not rebel. Satan came before the throne with them.

Job:2:1:
Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD,
and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

And again, Satan is not called a Son of God.

Job:38:7:
When the morning stars sang together,
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

And now you jump back to before Satan fell, when he still was in relationship to God.

You are not discerning on these issues, MHz.

Three times in this one book it refers to only what can be angels, to deny the two references in the very first book would point to these also being angels, of the fallen kind.

Absolutely false logic. Sons of God were not fallen angels. Satan was not includee as one of them. Sons of God PLUS Satan.

Again, you just disregard Job, as well.

Now when angels are referenced as being part of tribulation then the angel of the abyss is not from man, he was originally from Heaven, and when it say four angels are unbound at a certain time that is also a reference to fallen ones, it would seem that these four also have quite some power even after being cast from Heaven.

And yet again, you disregard Jude and the meaning of Sons of God.

The other issue is about those verses that are about 'the rest'. I indicated you wouldn't understand whay God has in store for them. Man is divided into faithfull servants and 'the rest' at Christ's coming. The faithfull servants have a different future than those who build and inhabit;

No. Two Resurrections. The first for the blessed and second for the cursed.

Those who build and inhabit are not dead. They are not the rest. It says the rest remain dead.

Re:7:15:
Therefore are they before the throne of God,
and serve him day and night in his temple:
and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Re:22:3:
And there shall be no more curse:
but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it;
and his servants shall serve him:

And now you jump to the New Earth with the NJ on it. Which are the blessed of the First Resurrection.

Here is another reference to 'the rest';
Isa:60:19: The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.
Isa:60:20:
Thy sun shall no more go down;
neither shall thy moon withdraw itself:
for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light,
and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.
Isa:60:21:
Thy people also shall be all righteous:
they shall inherit the land for ever,
the branch of my planting,
the work of my hands,
that I may be glorified.
Isa:60:22:
A little one shall become a thousand,
and a small one a strong nation:
I the LORD will hasten it in his time.

The timing is set by verse 19 in that;
Re:22:5:
And there shall be no night there;
and they need no candle,
neither light of the sun;
for the Lord God giveth them light:
and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Verse 22 says there will be many births, all from 'the rest' as those who were alive for the thousand years would seem to stay in New Jerusalem, as a static number of priests and kings to God and the Lamb.

Those are the living of the earth the survive the Trib. Not the dead, the rest, who stay dead until the White Throne.

These still living, earthly flesh, are neither first or second resurrection until they die. They they are sorted between the two.

There is no static poplulation as you claimed. They build, died, give birth and so on.

Resurrected saints do none of that.

The NJ does not come down until the New Earth, after the White Throne.


Later

Later

[Jane Doe]

Core said "Quote:
Re:9:17:
And thus I saw the horses in the vision,

How would you describe mobile army in the days of John?
Soldiers rode horses then. Armor rides mechanized 'horses.'



Quote:
and them that sat on them,
having breastplates of fire,
and of jacinth,
and brimstone:

Colors. The colors of China.



Quote:
and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions;
and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

A tank roars and spouts smoke and fire when it shoots.



Quote:
Re:9:18:
By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire,
and by the smoke,
and by the brimstone,
which issued out of their mouths.

Yep. Good description of artillary hitting a target.
Or, mobile rocket and missile launchers.



Quote:
Re:9:19:
For their power is in their mouth,
and in their tails:

Yep. Tanks and such can fire both forward and backwards.



Quote:
for their tails were like unto serpents,

Barrel pointing backwards.



Quote:
and had heads,
and with them they do hurt.

Tank turret, in example."

That's so easy to understand now!
...............
Dear Core and MHz,

I have learned so much within this thread.

[MHz]

Hi Core,
Hey MHz,

Hi Core,
I can see where admitting fallen angels have roles that will be fullfilled during a coming tribulation would have problems for the doctrine you believe.
All through the OT the term 'sons of God' refer to angels;
"Why should I admit to something that is not true."
1, the AC not being a man might conflict in other times or areas, fallen angelic activity would, for me at least help in that time tribulationmight also be available written in Scripture.
2. the released four are either join with the war machines have today, or they fight against them (take the top 10 nations of the world)

For my version to adhere to Scripture fallen angels do have roles, and they come frome below, not above, True, Satan did appear before God along with the holy angels. At this time he is not included with the 'sons of God'. he is mentioned seperately.
The ones in the first book came from Heaven as 'sons of Gpd'. holy angels still, they only fell after they began to do what they did.

You just will not deal with Jude because it denies your doctrine in the Trib.

About their judgement;
Jude:1:6:
And the angels which kept not their first estate,
but left their own habitation,
he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Re:6:17:
For the great day of his wrath is come;
and who shall be able to stand?

Re:16:14:
For they are the spirits of devils,
working miracles,
which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world,
to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

[CoreIssue]

Hi MHz,


Hi Core,
Hey MHz,

Hi Core,
I can see where admitting fallen angels have roles that will be fullfilled during a coming tribulation would have problems for the doctrine you believe.
All through the OT the term 'sons of God' refer to angels;
"Why should I admit to something that is not true."
1, the AC not being a man might conflict in other times or areas, fallen angelic activity would, for me at least help in that time tribulationmight also be available written in Scripture.

Being a man with a demon in him presents no such conflict as you keep insisting exists.
2. the released four are either join with the war machines have today, or they fight against them (take the top 10 nations of the world)
They do not fight against them. They fight through them.
For my version to adhere to Scripture fallen angels do have roles, and they come frome below, not above,
Agree. And that is why you version will not work. They are bound until Judgement Day.

True, Satan did appear before God along with the holy angels. At this time he is not included with the 'sons of God'. he is mentioned seperately.

OK.

The ones in the first book came from Heaven as 'sons of Gpd'. holy angels still, they only fell after they began to do what they did.

No. They were men in covenant relationship with God wedding women who were not. Angels are not male or female and cannot reproduce.


You just will not deal with Jude because it denies your doctrine in the Trib.

About their judgement;
Jude:1:6:
And the angels which kept not their first estate,
but left their own habitation,
he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Re:6:17:
For the great day of his wrath is come;
and who shall be able to stand?

Re:16:14:
For they are the spirits of devils,
working miracles,
which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world,
to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.


Re 16:13 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=re+16:13&version=kjv&st=1&sd=2&new=1&showtools=1) And (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2532&version=kjv) I saw (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1492&version=kjv) three (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5140&version=kjv) unclean (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=169&version=kjv) spirits (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4151&version=kjv) like (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3664&version=kjv) frogs (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=944&version=kjv) come out of (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1537&version=kjv) the mouth (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4750&version=kjv) of the dragon, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1404&version=kjv) and (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2532&version=kjv) out of (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1537&version=kjv) the mouth (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4750&version=kjv) of the beast, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2342&version=kjv) and (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2532&version=kjv) out of (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1537&version=kjv) the mouth (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4750&version=kjv) of the false prophet. (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5578&version=kjv)
Kai; (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2532&version=kjv) ei\don (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1492&version=kjv) ejk (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1537&version=kjv) tou' (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3588&version=kjv) stovmatoß (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4750&version=kjv) tou' (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3588&version=kjv) dravkontoß (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1404&version=kjv) kai; (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2532&version=kjv) ejk (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1537&version=kjv) tou' (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3588&version=kjv) stovmatoß (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4750&version=kjv) tou' (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3588&version=kjv) qhrivou (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2342&version=kjv) kai; (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2532&version=kjv) ejk (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1537&version=kjv) tou' (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3588&version=kjv) stovmatoß (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4750&version=kjv) tou' (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3588&version=kjv) yeudoprofhvtou (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5578&version=kjv) pneuvmata (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4151&version=kjv) triva (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5140&version=kjv) ajkavqarta (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=169&version=kjv) wJß (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5613&version=kjv) bavtracoi: (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=944&version=kjv)
The spirits are in the bodies of the dragon, AC and FP. The dragon is a statue and the FP and AC are human bodies.

Devil means an evil spirit or lesser god.

The False Trinity is a trinity of false gods. Thus this is saying in the combination of flesh and demon they are gods. And what came out is the spirit of the gods, the demons.

[MHz]

Hi Core,
n the bodies of the dragon, AC and FP. The dragon is a statue and the FP and AC are human bodies.

Devil means an evil spirit or lesser god.

The False Trinity is a trinity of false gods. Thus this is saying in the combination of flesh and demon they are gods. And what came out is the spirit of the gods, the demons.

The dragon isn't the image;
Re:12:3:
And there appeared another wonder in heaven;
and behold a great red dragon,
having seven heads and ten horns,
and seven crowns upon his heads.
Re:12:4:
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven,
and did cast them to the earth:
and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered,
for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Re:13:4:
And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast:
and they worshipped the beast,
saying,
Who is like unto the beast?
who is able to make war with him?

The dragon gives power to the beast, the image is made to resemble the beast;
Re:13:12:
And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him,
and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast,
whose deadly wound was healed.
Re:13:13:
And he doeth great wonders,
so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Re:13:14:
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast;
saying to them that dwell on the earth,
that they should make an image to the beast,
which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Re:13:15:
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast,
that the image of the beast should both speak,
and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Once the beast loses his power the image, the image would cease speaking. The dragon (Satan) already has life, he has had life since before the Garden of Eden. Satan is bound for a thousand years, not the image.

[CoreIssue]

Hi MHz,

Hi Core,
n the bodies of the dragon, AC and FP. The dragon is a statue and the FP and AC are human bodies.

Devil means an evil spirit or lesser god.

The False Trinity is a trinity of false gods. Thus this is saying in the combination of flesh and demon they are gods. And what came out is the spirit of the gods, the demons.

The dragon isn't the image;

Sure is.

In the 6th Bowl the evil spirit comes out of the dragon.

Satan is a spirit to begin with. To come out of something he has to first enter into something. He cannot come out of himself.


Re:12:3:
And there appeared another wonder in heaven;
and behold a great red dragon,
having seven heads and ten horns,
and seven crowns upon his heads.

Has no impact on him entering the statue.

Re:12:4:
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven,
and did cast them to the earth:

Long done history.

and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered,
for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Christ's birth. Again, history.

Re:13:4:
And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast:
and they worshipped the beast,
saying,
Who is like unto the beast?
who is able to make war with him?

Yep. Like we worship the triune God.
The dragon gives power to the beast, the image is made to resemble the beast;
Correct. The statue looks like the AC.

And, in his every continuing false mimicing God he enters the statue image of the AC.

Remember, Christ said the Father was in him? Get it?

Further, the FP cannot give the statue a life of its own. It must be animated by something else. Here, Satan.
Re:13:12:

And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him,
and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast,
whose deadly wound was healed.

Yes. The power is the rule of the AC kingdom and the forced worship.
Re:13:13:
And he doeth great wonders,
so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

Re:13:14:
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast;
saying to them that dwell on the earth,
that they should make an image to the beast,
which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Re:13:15:
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast,
that the image of the beast should both speak,
and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

False life. Not real life. Satan entering the statue to animate it..
Once the beast loses his power the image, the image would cease speaking.
No. As long as Satan is allowed to be in the statue it seemingly be alive.

The dragon (Satan) already has life, he has had life since before the Garden of Eden. Satan is bound for a thousand years, not the image.

An irrelevant statement.

Satan is out of the statue when bound.

Again, 3 bodies in the 6th Bowl with 3 evil spirits that can come out.

The statue stops moving when Satan comes out. But the AC and FP are humans, thus they keep right on functioning.

It never says that once the evil spirits leave the 3 bodies that they reenter them, does it?

Your thinking has a major issue you have never addressed. That being the 6th Bowl showing 3 bodies with 3 evil spirits that can come out and operate independently of the bodies.

Satan does not have a physical body. So where does the body he comes out of come from?

[Jessie]

quote:

Satan is out of the statue when bound.


I'm lost about the statue and satan, could you explain?

actually go into more detail on your last post...
thanks!

[MHz]

Hi Core,

n the bodies of the dragon, AC and FP. The dragon is a statue and the FP and AC are human bodies.

Devil means an evil spirit or lesser god.

The False Trinity is a trinity of false gods. Thus this is saying in the combination of flesh and demon they are gods. And what came out is the spirit of the gods, the demons.

The dragon isn't the image;

Sure is. [/QUOTE]
I was hoping for something a little more authortive, like any Scripture that says Satan is the image, what I have for verses say that the beast is given power from Satan and it is the beast that is responsible for both things the image can do;
Re:13:14:
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast;
saying to them that dwell on the earth,
that they should make an image to the beast,
which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Re:13:15:
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast,
that the image of the beast should both speak,
and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

In the 6th Bowl the evil spirit comes out of the dragon.
Yes, the dragon. not the image, the image isn't mentioned because it is the beast that does the things the image can do. The image isn't even built. let alone standing where it ought not to be, when Satan is doing this;

Re:12:13:
And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth,
he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Re:12:14:
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle,
that she might fly into the wilderness,
into her place,
where she is nourished for a time,
and times,
and half a time,
from the face of the serpent.
Re:12:15:
And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman,
that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Re:12:16:
And the earth helped the woman,
and the earth opened her mouth,
and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Re:12:17:
And the dragon was wroth with the woman,
and went to make war with the remnant of her seed,
which keep the commandments of God,
and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Take this verse as being very accurate in its timing, the beast has power, the beast has no power without Satan. When Satan opens the pit from where the beast comes from,Satan releases the power of this fallen angel, this angel is still not as powerfull as Satan. Satan is at his most powerfull at the end of the thousand years.


Satan is a spirit to begin with. To come out of something he has to first enter into something. He cannot come out of himself.
It is well within the power of God to withdraw the Spirit of Life from anyone, including fallen angels, whenever he desires. That He does set a time and place for this also means this will be fullfilled at that day and time. The Lake of Fire is called the second death, twice dead means the Lake of Fire has now become their place, not dead just without God. They had knowledge of good and evil and they saw God's face, once you fall from there it leaves only one place to go.



Re:13:4:
And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast:
and they worshipped the beast,
saying,
Who is like unto the beast?
who is able to make war with him?

Yep. Like we worship the triune God.

Hmmmm;
Re:22:8:
And I John saw these things,
and heard them.
And when I had heard and seen,
I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Re:22:9:
Then saith he unto me,
See thou do it not:
for I am thy fellowservant,
and of thy brethren the prophets,
and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
Re:22:10:
And he saith unto me,
Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book:
for the time is at hand.
Re:22:11:
He that is unjust,
let him be unjust still:
and he which is filthy,
let him be filthy still:
and he that is righteous,
let him be righteous still:
and he that is holy,
let him be holy still.
Re:22:12:
And,
behold,
I come quickly;
and my reward is with me,
to give every man according as his work shall be.
Re:22:13:
I am Alpha and Omega,
the beginning and the end,
the first and the last.

Christ tells me to only worship God, I think I'll take His words on this issue.

The dragon gives power to the beast, the image is made to resemble the beast;
Correct. The statue looks like the AC.
How is the AC given a deadly wound and how is it healed?
I also want to remind you, your AC starts his time by a 7 years peace treaty, yet the very next seal is peace being taken away.

And, in his every continuing false mimicing God he enters the statue image of the AC.
The FP, with the help of the beast, is doing some things at this time also;
2Th:2:4:
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,
or that is worshipped;
so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
shewing himself that he is God.

Remember, Christ said the Father was in him? Get it?
Yes God was in Christ, that is how He could show signs that He was from the Father.

Further, the FP cannot give the statue a life of its own. It must be animated by something else. Here, Satan.
Re:13:12:

And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him,
and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast,
whose deadly wound was healed.

Yes. The power is the rule of the AC kingdom and the forced worship.
Re:13:13:
And he doeth great wonders,
so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

Re:13:14:
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast;
saying to them that dwell on the earth,
that they should make an image to the beast,
which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Re:13:15:
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast,
that the image of the beast should both speak,
and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

False life. Not real life. Satan entering the statue to animate it..
Once the beast loses his power the image, the image would cease speaking.
No. As long as Satan is allowed to be in the statue it seemingly be alive.


It says the beast gives the image power, once the beast is curtailed that would be the end of the image doing anything, the beast is given power by satan, God can take that power away and satan can still be satan, which he is during his little season a thousand years later.

[quote]The dragon (Satan) already has life, he has had life since before the Garden of Eden. Satan is bound for a thousand years, not the image.

An irrelevant statement.
To what, man is a living soul, we have flesh and we have the breath of life, one from the Earth and the other from God alone. Angels have life also, the spirit that leaves them is the breath of life, without this part from God you depart to another place, for man it is the grave, for angels it is the Lake of Fire, not asleep, away from what was once a comfort.


Satan is out of the statue when bound.
Satan is in the pit when bound;
Re:20:1:
And I saw an angel come down from heaven,
having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Re:20:2:
And he laid hold on the dragon,
that old serpent,
which is the Devil,
and Satan,
and bound him a thousand years,
Re:20:3:
And cast him into the bottomless pit,
and shut him up,
and set a seal upon him,
that he should deceive the nations no more,
till the thousand years should be fulfilled:
and after that he must be loosed a little season.

This is Satan's first death, his second comes when fire from God in Heaven comes at the end of his little season, there won't be any fallen angels left to judge, they have already been judged, that is why they are in the pit, the only remaining thing to be done is sending them away to the Lake. The first is the angel of the abyss, the second is the false prophet, both these are there when Satan is bound.


Again, 3 bodies in the 6th Bowl with 3 evil spirits that can come out.
You say this is the point when the image is made to stop, what is it doing from when the 5th vial puts their kingdom into darkness?

The statue stops moving when Satan comes out. But the AC and FP are humans, thus they keep right on functioning.
That could also happen when the beast goes through the same thing.

It never says that once the evil spirits leave the 3 bodies that they reenter them, does it?
Does this same spirit re-enter satan at the time he is loosed? Probably, just as evil as ever.

Your thinking has a major issue you have never addressed. That being the 6th Bowl showing 3 bodies with 3 evil spirits that can come out and operate independently of the bodies.
Well Core, when the spirit of life leaves me I truly hope it is not referred to in the same manor as those three. Think that spirit operates without my body, no way, it goes back to God, the same place it came from. My living soul is now asleep, only to become alive again when that same spirit visits the dust that was my flesh.

Satan does not have a physical body. So where does the body he comes out of come from?
Then who is seen to be mocked in these verses;
Isa:14:4:
That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon,
and say,
How hath the oppressor ceased!
the golden city ceased!
Isa:14:5:
The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked,
and the sceptre of the rulers.
Isa:14:6:
He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke,
he that ruled the nations in anger,
is persecuted,
and none hindereth.
Isa:14:7:
The whole earth is at rest,
and is quiet:
they break forth into singing.
Isa:14:8:
Yea,
the fir trees rejoice at thee,
and the cedars of Lebanon,
saying,
Since thou art laid down,
no feller is come up against us.
Isa:14:9:
Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming:
it stirreth up the dead for thee,
even all the chief ones of the earth;
it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
Isa:14:10:
All they shall speak and say unto thee,
Art thou also become weak as we?
art thou become like unto us?
Isa:14:11:
Thy pomp is brought down to the grave,
and the noise of thy viols:
the worm is spread under thee,
and the worms cover thee.
Isa:14:12:
How art thou fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer,
son of the morning!
how art thou cut down to the ground,
which didst weaken the nations!
Isa:14:13:
For thou hast said in thine heart,
I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:
I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation,
in the sides of the north:
Isa:14:14:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will be like the most High.
Isa:14:15:
Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell,
to the sides of the pit.
Isa:14:16:
They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee,
and consider thee,
saying,
Is this the man that made the earth to tremble,
that did shake kingdoms;
Isa:14:17:
That made the world as a wilderness,
and destroyed the cities thereof;
that opened not the house of his prisoners?
Isa:14:18:
All the kings of the nations, even all of them,
lie in glory, every one in his own house.
Isa:14:19:
But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch,
and as the raiment of those that are slain,
thrust through with a sword,
that go down to the stones of the pit;
as a carcase trodden under feet.
Isa:14:20:
Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial,
because thou hast destroyed thy land,
and slain thy people:
the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.
Isa:14:21:
Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers;
that they do not rise,
nor possess the land,
nor fill the face of the world with cities.
Isa:14:22:
For I will rise up against them,
saith the LORD of hosts,
and cut off from Babylon the name,
and remnant,
and son,
and nephew,
saith the LORD.
Isa:14:23:
I will also make it a possession for the bittern,
and pools of water:
and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction,
saith the LORD of hosts.
Isa:14:24:
The LORD of hosts hath sworn,
saying,
Surely as I have thought,
so shall it come to pass;
and as I have purposed,
so shall it stand:

Do you really think you won't see bodies of angels in this verse;
Heb:12:22:
But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,

Later

[CoreIssue]

quote:

Satan is out of the statue when bound.


I'm lost about the statue and satan, could you explain?

actually go into more detail on your last post...
thanks!
Satan mimics God trying to be God.

The False Trinity is his attempt to have a Trinity.

Christ is God in the flesh, human form and sacrifice for our sins. Raised from the dead.

The AC is a human with a demon in him from the Pit. By this demon, who was with the King that was, Alexander, in him, he is a false resurrection. A godking returned to life to supposedly save Man.

In the NJ on the New Earth, the Trinity will be on earth, visible to the saints. This is a false attempt to take over that scenario.

The FP builds a statue image of the AC, who many have now accepted as god. The FP, acting as the False Holy Spirit, supposedly brings the statue to life. But actually it is Satan entering the statue giving it false life. He makes it his physical body, since Satan has none of his own.

Being the image of the AC and speaking for the AC, the people worship the image as if it is the AC. They probably think it is him, appearing one way as godking and another, in the Temple, to be worshipped.

In the 6th Bowl, when the end of the Trib is drawing near, Satan and the demons, in the FP and AC, come out of the statue and they bodies to go out, as spiirits, to the worldly leaders to get them to send their armies to Jerusalem to fight Christ.

When they loose, at the Second Coming, the FP and AC are cast into the Pit, bodily. While not said, it can be assumed the demons are cast in with them.

But, when Satan is bound and cast in, the statue is left standing in the Temple. We know that because Daniel says it will not be removed until 30 days after the Second Coming.

This is how Satan incarnates to the world, since he cannot create anything. He has to do it through fraud.

Hope that helps.

[CoreIssue]

Hi MHz,



Hi Core,

n the bodies of the dragon, AC and FP. The dragon is a statue and the FP and AC are human bodies.

Devil means an evil spirit or lesser god.

The False Trinity is a trinity of false gods. Thus this is saying in the combination of flesh and demon they are gods. And what came out is the spirit of the gods, the demons.

The dragon isn't the image;

Sure is.

I was hoping for something a little more authortive, like any Scripture that says Satan is the image,

I have repeatedly cited the 6th Bowl that shows an evil spirit in the dragaon.

Satan has no demon in him. Satan is an evil spirit. Yet here we have an evil spirit coming out of the dragon.

Dragon is Satan. To be called dragon and have an evil spirit come out demands Satan is in something. The statue fits the bill all the way.

what I have for verses say that the beast is given power from Satan and it is the beast that is responsible for both things the image can do;
Re:13:14:
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast;
saying to them that dwell on the earth,
that they should make an image to the beast,
which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Re:13:15:
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast,
that the image of the beast should both speak,
and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

It does not say the FP controls the statue. The FP cannot bring anything to life.

And it does not say the FP controls the statue. It says he brings it to life and then the image does these things on its own.

Again, you just disregard the 6th Bowl demands.

In the 6th Bowl the evil spirit comes out of the dragon.
Yes, the dragon. not the image, the image isn't mentioned because it is the beast that does the things the image can do. The image isn't even built. let alone standing where it ought not to be, when Satan is doing this;

You keep missing the point. The Dragon is Satan and Satan is a complete being. He has NO spirit within him to come out of him.

Re:12:13:
And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth,
he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Re:12:14:
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle,
that she might fly into the wilderness,
into her place,
where she is nourished for a time,
and times,
and half a time,
from the face of the serpent.
Re:12:15:
And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman,
that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Re:12:16:
And the earth helped the woman,
and the earth opened her mouth,
and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Re:12:17:
And the dragon was wroth with the woman,
and went to make war with the remnant of her seed,
which keep the commandments of God,
and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Irrelevant.

This is before the 2nd Woe when he enters the Statue.
Take this verse as being very accurate in its timing,
Which is the First Woe and BEFORE satan empowers to AC and FP. But the AC is already king.
the beast has power, the beast has no power without Satan.
False. And this is before the statue is set up.

When Satan opens the pit from where the beast comes from,Satan releases the power of this fallen angel, this angel is still not as powerfull as Satan. Satan is at his most powerfull at the end of the thousand years.

It is not an angel. And it does not enter the AC. The AC is king. The FP Priest.

And you still avoid the declaration of the 6th Bowl that there are 3 with 3 evil spirits and one evil spirit is IN, not IS, the dragon.

Satan is a spirit to begin with. To come out of something he has to first enter into something. He cannot come out of himself.
It is well within the power of God to withdraw the Spirit of Life from anyone, including fallen angels, whenever he desires.

God does not EVER take life away from Satan. The 6th Bowl is not taking life from Satan, it is Satan caming out of a body called the dragon. Which means Satan is inside of something, the Statue.

That He does set a time and place for this also means this will be fullfilled at that day and time. The Lake of Fire is called the second death, twice dead means the Lake of Fire has now become their place, not dead just without God. They had knowledge of good and evil and they saw God's face, once you fall from there it leaves only one place to go.

Irrelevant.

This is 1,000 years before Judgement. This is Satan coming out of the Statue to gather armies. His body, the statue is still there. He is still there.

There is no taking of life from the 3 in the 6th Bowl.

It says the evil spirit Satan/Dragon comes out of a physical body/statue/dragon.

You just refuse to deal with that head on. I mean the literal words.



Re:13:4:
And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast:
and they worshipped the beast,
saying,
Who is like unto the beast?
who is able to make war with him?

Yep. Like we worship the triune God.

Hmmmm;
Re:22:8:
And I John saw these things,
and heard them.
And when I had heard and seen,
I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Re:22:9:
Then saith he unto me,
See thou do it not:
for I am thy fellowservant,
and of thy brethren the prophets,
and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

That is not Christ. It is an angel showing him the things and they are seeing Christ.
Christ tells me to only worship God, I think I'll take His words on this issue.
That was not Christ speaking. But John and the angel seeing Christ.

Christ was not showing John around.

So, Christ is not God? Amazing statement.


The dragon gives power to the beast, the image is made to resemble the beast;
Correct. The statue looks like the AC.
How is the AC given a deadly wound and how is it healed?

It never says the AC is killed. It says one of the 5 was killed and will come back as the AC.

Back via the demon, not resurrection.
I also want to remind you, your AC starts his time by a 7 years peace treaty, yet the very next seal is peace being taken away.
The Treaty of the First Seal is not broken until Mid.

But there is war throughout the first half of the Trib, while the Treaty makes Israel and peaceful and unarmed nation where the Two Witnesses and priests are for 3.5 years.

And, in his every continuing false mimicing God he enters the statue image of the AC.
The FP, with the help of the beast, is doing some things at this time also;

The AC does not help the FP. He rules the FP. The FP is working for the AC and is the High Priest of the AC and his Statue, which Satan is in.

The FP is never a king.

2Th:2:4:
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,
or that is worshipped;
so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
shewing himself that he is God.

That is the AC, not the FP.

Remember, Christ said the Father was in him? Get it?
Yes God was in Christ, that is how He could show signs that He was from the Father.

Not God in Christ, the Father in Christ. Don't change the words.

And in means of nature, which is what makes the Trinity, shared nature, not personage.

All I am getting from you is that you are a Modalist. Which is non-Biblical. And which will distort every aspect of the Bible.

Further, the FP cannot give the statue a life of its own. It must be animated by something else. Here, Satan.
Re:13:12:

And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him,
and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast,
whose deadly wound was healed.

Yes. The power is the rule of the AC kingdom and the forced worship.

He works on behalf of the AC. He neither replaces or is equal to the AC.
Re:13:13:

And he doeth great wonders,
so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Re:13:14:
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast;
saying to them that dwell on the earth,
that they should make an image to the beast,
which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Re:13:15:
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast,
that the image of the beast should both speak,
and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

False life. Not real life. Satan entering the statue to animate it..
Once the beast loses his power the image, the image would cease speaking.
No. As long as Satan is allowed to be in the statue it seemingly be alive.


It says the beast gives the image power,

It does not. It says what the statue will do once given life. Nothing there says the statue is powered or controlled by the AC.
once the beast is curtailed that would be the end of the image doing anything,
No. Satan empowers the Statue by being in it.

the beast is given power by satan, God can take that power away and satan can still be satan, which he is during his little season a thousand years later.

No. It does not say that Satan has no power until the Short Time.

[quote]The dragon (Satan) already has life, he has had life since before the Garden of Eden. Satan is bound for a thousand years, not the image.

An irrelevant statement.
To what, man is a living soul, we have flesh and we have the breath of life, one from the Earth and the other from God alone. Angels have life also, the spirit that leaves them is the breath of life, without this part from God you depart to another place, for man it is the grave, for angels it is the Lake of Fire, not asleep, away from what was once a comfort.

Where do you get these doctrine?

Angels are spirits. No spirit leaves them.

Satan is out of the statue when bound.
Satan is in the pit when bound;
Re:20:1:
And I saw an angel come down from heaven,
having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Re:20:2:
And he laid hold on the dragon,
that old serpent,
which is the Devil,
and Satan,
and bound him a thousand years,
Re:20:3:
And cast him into the bottomless pit,
and shut him up,
and set a seal upon him,
that he should deceive the nations no more,
till the thousand years should be fulfilled:
and after that he must be loosed a little season.

This is Satan's first death, his second comes when fire from God in Heaven comes at the end of his little season, there won't be any fallen angels left to judge, they have already been judged, that is why they are in the pit, the only remaining thing to be done is sending them away to the Lake. The first is the angel of the abyss, the second is the false prophet, both these are there when Satan is bound.
Which is irrelelvant to the Statue.


Again, 3 bodies in the 6th Bowl with 3 evil spirits that can come out.
You say this is the point when the image is made to stop, what is it doing from when the 5th vial puts their kingdom into darkness?

Irrelevant to the point of Satan being in the Statue.

The statue stops moving when Satan comes out. But the AC and FP are humans, thus they keep right on functioning.
That could also happen when the beast goes through the same thing.

No. A demon coming out of a human leaves the human spirit in the body.

Satan is the spirit of the statue. It has no life of its own. No spirit of its own.

It never says that once the evil spirits leave the 3 bodies that they reenter them, does it?
Does this same spirit re-enter satan at the time he is loosed? Probably, just as evil as ever.

Satan is a spirit. He has no spirit in him.

Your thinking has a major issue you have never addressed. That being the 6th Bowl showing 3 bodies with 3 evil spirits that can come out and operate independently of the bodies.
Well Core, when the spirit of life leaves me I truly hope it is not referred to in the same manor as those three.

It does not say spirit of life. It says evil spirit. Satan is an evil Spirit. Demons are evil spirits.

The AC and FP are most assuredly still alive at the Second Coming.

Think that spirit operates without my body, no way, it goes back to God, the same place it came from. My living soul is now asleep, only to become alive again when that same spirit visits the dust that was my flesh.

And you believe in soul sleep as well? Sigh.
Satan does not have a physical body. So where does the body he comes out of come from?

Then who is seen to be mocked in these verses;

Angels, fallen angels, demons, the Father and the Holy Spirit do not have physical bodies.

Do you really think you won't see bodies of angels in this verse;
Heb:12:22:
But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,

They don't need them. Never had them.

Later

Later

[Jessie]

quote:

Satan is out of the statue when bound.


I'm lost about the statue and satan, could you explain?

actually go into more detail on your last post...
thanks!
Satan mimics God trying to be God.

The False Trinity is his attempt to have a Trinity.

Christ is God in the flesh, human form and sacrifice for our sins. Raised from the dead.

The AC is a human with a demon in him from the Pit. By this demon, who was with the King that was, Alexander, in him, he is a false resurrection. A godking returned to life to supposedly save Man.

In the NJ on the New Earth, the Trinity will be on earth, visible to the saints. This is a false attempt to take over that scenario.

The FP builds a statue image of the AC, who many have now accepted as god. The FP, acting as the False Holy Spirit, supposedly brings the statue to life. But actually it is Satan entering the statue giving it false life. He makes it his physical body, since Satan has none of his own.

Being the image of the AC and speaking for the AC, the people worship the image as if it is the AC. They probably think it is him, appearing one way as godking and another, in the Temple, to be worshipped.

In the 6th Bowl, when the end of the Trib is drawing near, Satan and the demons, in the FP and AC, come out of the statue and they bodies to go out, as spiirits, to the worldly leaders to get them to send their armies to Jerusalem to fight Christ.

When they loose, at the Second Coming, the FP and AC are cast into the Pit, bodily. While not said, it can be assumed the demons are cast in with them.

But, when Satan is bound and cast in, the statue is left standing in the Temple. We know that because Daniel says it will not be removed until 30 days after the Second Coming.

This is how Satan incarnates to the world, since he cannot create anything. He has to do it through fraud.

Hope that helps.

that did help thank you!

could the statue be a form of a computer also?

[MHz]

quote:

Satan is out of the statue when bound.


I'm lost about the statue and satan, could you explain?

actually go into more detail on your last post...
thanks!
Satan mimics God trying to be God.

The False Trinity is his attempt to have a Trinity.

Christ is God in the flesh, human form and sacrifice for our sins. Raised from the dead.

The AC is a human with a demon in him from the Pit. By this demon, who was with the King that was, Alexander, in him, he is a false resurrection. A godking returned to life to supposedly save Man.

In the NJ on the New Earth, the Trinity will be on earth, visible to the saints. This is a false attempt to take over that scenario.

The FP builds a statue image of the AC, who many have now accepted as god. The FP, acting as the False Holy Spirit, supposedly brings the statue to life. But actually it is Satan entering the statue giving it false life. He makes it his physical body, since Satan has none of his own.

Being the image of the AC and speaking for the AC, the people worship the image as if it is the AC. They probably think it is him, appearing one way as godking and another, in the Temple, to be worshipped.

In the 6th Bowl, when the end of the Trib is drawing near, Satan and the demons, in the FP and AC, come out of the statue and they bodies to go out, as spiirits, to the worldly leaders to get them to send their armies to Jerusalem to fight Christ.

When they loose, at the Second Coming, the FP and AC are cast into the Pit, bodily. While not said, it can be assumed the demons are cast in with them.

But, when Satan is bound and cast in, the statue is left standing in the Temple. We know that because Daniel says it will not be removed until 30 days after the Second Coming.

This is how Satan incarnates to the world, since he cannot create anything. He has to do it through fraud.

Hope that helps.

that did help thank you!

could the statue be a form of a computer also?
No, a computer does not have life, nor can it kill, or cause to be killed, it can certainly get your name on a list though. This would also require a almost constant power source, my net occasionally goes down, I don't think our technology is enough to even enlighten those who are just getting these things that we (the ones who bring this technology)'are enlightened', not after reading all there is to say on any subject.

I have been reading your posts BTW but since they are directed at Core, any conflict on those issues will be in my posts to him.

Have faith in God.
Later

[CoreIssue]

could the statue be a form of a computer also?
No, a computer does not have life, nor can it kill, or cause to be killed, it can certainly get your name on a list though. This would also require a almost constant power source, my net occasionally goes down, I don't think our technology is enough to even enlighten those who are just getting these things that we (the ones who bring this technology)'are enlightened', not after reading all there is to say on any subject.

I have been reading your posts BTW but since they are directed at Core, any conflict on those issues will be in my posts to him.

I agree it is not a computer.

It is a statue that looks like the AC.

[MHz]

Hi Core,
the bodies of the dragon, AC and FP. The dragon is a statue and the FP and AC are human bodies.
Why do you prefer Ac over the name given Beast(from the pit)? Is it because your version of times yet to be require two men, not one man and one fallen angel?
The lengths you are going to to 'defend this position' don't even have any more verses attached to it other than a repetition of the same one over and over. That tactic doesn't impress me. I'm nt out to confront you on doctrine, I could care less if there is a pre-trib gathering in that some are taken to safety from having to face satan and other angelic beings, power to them. Where my objection comes in is when these same who would not wish to see how Christ deals with the most powerfull angel means that you or the Jews have any part other than being a witness. You say Jews will 'help hunt down' sinners..flat out wrong. You say that you are a part of the 'armies of Heaven' (yet taken away before satan is on Earth) only to go to Heaven to do what, fight in a war in Heaven? Come on, save you from Satan and a few angels to confront all the fallen ones?

Devil means an evil spirit or lesser god.
It means in opposition to God, God says do not kill, the Devil will say it is okay to kill the same ones God would kill, that is His right not any mans, what you fail to observe is that many He has caused to be killed also will not see the Lake of Fire.

The False Trinity is a trinity of false gods. Thus this is saying in the combination of flesh and demon they are gods. And what came out is the spirit of the gods, the demons.
No Core, what comes out is their breath of life from God, the angel from the pit suffers the second death, Lake of Fire, the FP born in the flesh and in the spirit that gives knowledge of right and wrong gets double, two deaths at once. The two deaths might not be exclusive to just the Fp when all is said and done. When a righteous person dies it is a righteous spirit that comes out of them.

The dragon isn't the image;

Sure is.
[/quote]
I was hoping for something a little more authortive, like any Scripture that says Satan is the image,
[/quote]
I have repeatedly cited the 6th Bowl that shows an evil spirit in the dragaon.

Satan has no demon in him. Satan is an evil spirit. Yet here we have an evil spirit coming out of the dragon.[/QUOTE]

Right, his first time to the pit, the angel from the pit has had his first death,(was and is not) it takes two deaths to get to the Lake.

Dragon is Satan. To be called dragon and have an evil spirit come out demands Satan is in something. The statue fits the bill all the way.
Except one, there is no verse relating the two to being one another. Filling in voids doesn't work, you have to have a verse that plainly says what you promote. And that verse is ?


what I have for verses say that the beast is given power from Satan and it is the beast that is responsible for both things the image can do;
Re:13:14:
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast;
saying to them that dwell on the earth,
that they should make an image to the beast,
which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Re:13:15:
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast,
that the image of the beast should both speak,
and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

It does not say the FP controls the statue. The FP cannot bring anything to life.

And it does not say the FP controls the statue. It says he brings it to life and then the image does these things on its own.
Vs 14 is about the command to build something, from the FP, the last one spoken of in that verse is the beast, that is who the he is in the next verse.

Again, you just disregard the 6th Bowl demands.

In the 6th Bowl the evil spirit comes out of the dragon.
Yes, the dragon. not the image, the image isn't mentioned because it is the beast that does the things the image can do. The image isn't even built. let alone standing where it ought not to be, when Satan is doing this;

You keep missing the point. The Dragon is Satan and Satan is a complete being. He has NO spirit within him to come out of him.

Is he alive, if he is then the spirit of breath is in him, it doesn't come any simpler than that.


Re:12:13:
And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth,
he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Re:12:14:
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle,
that she might fly into the wilderness,
into her place,
where she is nourished for a time,
and times,
and half a time,
from the face of the serpent.
Re:12:15:
And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman,
that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Re:12:16:
And the earth helped the woman,
and the earth opened her mouth,
and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Re:12:17:
And the dragon was wroth with the woman,
and went to make war with the remnant of her seed,
which keep the commandments of God,
and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Irrelevant.
Why, the right timeframe and the right name for one who is referrenced in Ch:16, the dragon.

This is before the 2nd Woe when he enters the Statue.
Take this verse as being very accurate in its timing,
Which is the First Woe and BEFORE satan empowers to AC and FP. But the AC is already king.
the beast has power, the beast has no power without Satan.
False. And this is before the statue is set up.

When Satan opens the pit from where the beast comes from,Satan releases the power of this fallen angel, this angel is still not as powerfull as Satan. Satan is at his most powerfull at the end of the thousand years.

It is not an angel. And it does not enter the AC. The AC is king. The FP Priest.
So when satan knows he has a short time is that 7 years?

And you still avoid the declaration of the 6th Bowl that there are 3 with 3 evil spirits and one evil spirit is IN, not IS, the dragon.

Satan is a spirit to begin with. To come out of something he has to first enter into something. He cannot come out of himself.
It is well within the power of God to withdraw the Spirit of Life from anyone, including fallen angels, whenever he desires.

God does not EVER take life away from Satan. The 6th Bowl is not taking life from Satan, it is Satan caming out of a body called the dragon. Which means Satan is inside of something, the Statue.

That He does set a time and place for this also means this will be fullfilled at that day and time. The Lake of Fire is called the second death, twice dead means the Lake of Fire has now become their place, not dead just without God. They had knowledge of good and evil and they saw God's face, once you fall from there it leaves only one place to go.

Irrelevant.

This is 1,000 years before Judgement. This is Satan coming out of the Statue to gather armies. His body, the statue is still there. He is still there.
On his way down, at this point he is losing things not gathering more. Going to the pit means what?

There is no taking of life from the 3 in the 6th Bowl.

It says the evil spirit Satan/Dragon comes out of a physical body/statue/dragon.

You just refuse to deal with that head on. I mean the literal words.

Post them, not one verse says the dragon comes out of the dragon, not one.

That was not Christ speaking. But John and the angel seeing Christ.

Christ was not showing John around.
Really, how many besides Christ would dare use these words when talking about themselves;
Re:22:10:
And he saith unto me,
Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book:
for the time is at hand.
Re:22:11:
He that is unjust,
let him be unjust still:
and he which is filthy,
let him be filthy still:
and he that is righteous,
let him be righteous still:
and he that is holy,
let him be holy still.
Re:22:12:
And,
behold,
I come quickly;
and my reward is with me,
to give every man according as his work shall be.
Re:22:13:
I am Alpha and Omega,
the beginning and the end,
the first and the last.
Re:22:14:
Blessed are they that do his commandments,
that they may have right to the tree of life,
and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Re:22:15:
For without are dogs,
and sorcerers,
and whoremongers,
and murderers,
and idolaters,
and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Re:22:16:
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches.
I am the root and the offspring of David,
and the bright and morning star.

How could you possibly miss the author of those words, six other times Christ bears witness in just Revelations, that is why there are seven eyes in this;
Re:5:6:
And I beheld,
and,
lo,
in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts,
and in the midst of the elders,
stood a Lamb as it had been slain,
having seven horns and seven eyes,
which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Ch 10 is one of them, being seen on the mountain with the 144,000 is another, do you get the idea yet. BTW the place where the 144,000 is the same place a few of His disciples saw Moses.


So, Christ is not God? Amazing statement.
Sent by God and with power and glory of God





I also want to remind you, your AC starts his time by a 7 years peace treaty, yet the very next seal is peace being taken away.
The Treaty of the First Seal is not broken until Mid.

But there is war throughout the first half of the Trib, while the Treaty makes Israel and peaceful and unarmed nation where the Two Witnesses and priests are for 3.5 years.

So who tries to do harm to these two;
Re:11:5:
And if any man will hurt them,
fire proceedeth out of their mouth,
and devoureth their enemies:
and if any man will hurt them,
he must in this manner be killed.
Re:11:6:
These have power to shut heaven,
that it rain not in the days of their prophecy:
and have power over waters to turn them to blood,
and to smite the earth with all plagues,
as often as they will.



And, in his every continuing false mimicing God he enters the statue image of the AC.
The FP, with the help of the beast, is doing some things at this time also;

The AC does not help the FP. He rules the FP. The FP is working for the AC and is the High Priest of the AC and his Statue, which Satan is in.

The FP is never a king.

2Th:2:4:
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,
or that is worshipped;
so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
shewing himself that he is God.

That is the AC, not the FP.

I,ve never said the FP ever serves as king, that is the beast, the 8th king, the last one before Christ.

Remember, Christ said the Father was in him? Get it?
Yes God was in Christ, that is how He could show signs that He was from the Father.

Not God in Christ, the Father in Christ. Don't change the words.

Joh:20:17:
Jesus saith unto her,
Touch me not;
for I am not yet ascended to my Father:
but go to my brethren, and say unto them,
I ascend unto my Father,
and your Father;
and to my God,
and your God.



All I am getting from you is that you are a Modalist. Which is non-Biblical. And which will distort every aspect of the Bible.

Further, the FP cannot give the statue a life of its own. It must be animated by something else. Here, Satan.
Re:13:12:

And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him,
and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast,
whose deadly wound was healed.

Yes. The power is the rule of the AC kingdom and the forced worship.

He works on behalf of the AC. He neither replaces or is equal to the AC.
Re:13:13:

And he doeth great wonders,
so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Re:13:14:
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast;
saying to them that dwell on the earth,
that they should make an image to the beast,
which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Re:13:15:
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast,
that the image of the beast should both speak,
and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

False life. Not real life. Satan entering the statue to animate it..
Once the beast loses his power the image, the image would cease speaking.
No. As long as Satan is allowed to be in the statue it seemingly be alive.


It says the beast gives the image power,

It does not. It says what the statue will do once given life. Nothing there says the statue is powered or controlled by the AC.
once the beast is curtailed that would be the end of the image doing anything,
No. Satan empowers the Statue by being in it.

the beast is given power by satan, God can take that power away and satan can still be satan, which he is during his little season a thousand years later.

No. It does not say that Satan has no power until the Short Time.

[quote]The dragon (Satan) already has life, he has had life since before the Garden of Eden. Satan is bound for a thousand years, not the image.

An irrelevant statement.
To what, man is a living soul, we have flesh and we have the breath of life, one from the Earth and the other from God alone. Angels have life also, the spirit that leaves them is the breath of life, without this part from God you depart to another place, for man it is the grave, for angels it is the Lake of Fire, not asleep, away from what was once a comfort.

Where do you get these doctrine?

Ge:2:7:
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;
and man became a living soul.

Ec:12:7:
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:
and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.




Angels are spirits. No spirit leaves them.

Satan is out of the statue when bound.
Satan is in the pit when bound;
Re:20:1:
And I saw an angel come down from heaven,
having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Re:20:2:
And he laid hold on the dragon,
that old serpent,
which is the Devil,
and Satan,
and bound him a thousand years,
Re:20:3:
And cast him into the bottomless pit,
and shut him up,
and set a seal upon him,
that he should deceive the nations no more,
till the thousand years should be fulfilled:
and after that he must be loosed a little season.

This is Satan's first death, his second comes when fire from God in Heaven comes at the end of his little season, there won't be any fallen angels left to judge, they have already been judged, that is why they are in the pit, the only remaining thing to be done is sending them away to the Lake. The first is the angel of the abyss, the second is the false prophet, both these are there when Satan is bound.
Which is irrelelvant to the Statue.


Again, 3 bodies in the 6th Bowl with 3 evil spirits that can come out.
You say this is the point when the image is made to stop, what is it doing from when the 5th vial puts their kingdom into darkness?

Irrelevant to the point of Satan being in the Statue.

The statue stops moving when Satan comes out. But the AC and FP are humans, thus they keep right on functioning.
That could also happen when the beast goes through the same thing.

No. A demon coming out of a human leaves the human spirit in the body.

Re:16:14:
For they are the spirits of devils,
working miracles,
which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world,
to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

The word they references the dragon, the beast and the FP, it is not a reference to the 3 spirits, this is at that day and they are the first to be sent to where they are sent, two to the Lake, one to the pit.

Satan is the spirit of the statue. It has no life of its own. No spirit of its own.

It never says that once the evil spirits leave the 3 bodies that they reenter them, does it?
Does this same spirit re-enter satan at the time he is loosed? Probably, just as evil as ever.

Satan is a spirit. He has no spirit in him.

Your thinking has a major issue you have never addressed. That being the 6th Bowl showing 3 bodies with 3 evil spirits that can come out and operate independently of the bodies.
Well Core, when the spirit of life leaves me I truly hope it is not referred to in the same manor as those three.

It does not say spirit of life. It says evil spirit. Satan is an evil Spirit. Demons are evil spirits.
Anything with life has life because it contains the breath of God, when that leaves there is no longer life in that man or angel. It is what is done, by the body during this time that determines if they are evil or not, these 3 have been doing evil things.

The AC and FP are most assuredly still alive at the Second Coming.

Think that spirit operates without my body, no way, it goes back to God, the same place it came from. My living soul is now asleep, only to become alive again when that same spirit visits the dust that was my flesh.

Re:16:17:
And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air;
and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven,
from the throne,
saying,
It is done.

All the vials are the fullness of the wrath of God, when it is said to be done then when the last vial is accomplished it is over, what life remains do not include any sinners.

And you believe in soul sleep as well? Sigh.
Both Job and Solomon are quite clear on that issue;
Job:14:10:
But man dieth,
and wasteth away:
yea,
man giveth up the ghost,
and where is he?
Job:14:11:
As the waters fail from the sea,
and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
Job:14:12:
So man lieth down,
and riseth not:
till the heavens be no more,
they shall not awake,
nor be raised out of their sleep.
Job:14:13: O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
Job:14:14: If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

Later

[CoreIssue]

Hi MHz,


Hi Core,
the bodies of the dragon, AC and FP. The dragon is a statue and the FP and AC are human bodies.
Why do you prefer Ac over the name given Beast(from the pit)? Is it because your version of times yet to be require two men, not one man and one fallen angel?

I will say it again.

Satan = Dragon. Satan is the ONLY Fallen Angel not bound. Demons are not Fallen Angels. They are bound in the Pit until Judgement Day per Jude.

You create the contradiction here. Not me.

First Beast = AC. A man wih a demon in him. The demon that was with the King who was, Alexander, and will be in the AC godking. He is a distinct man from the FP/Second Beast.

Second Beast = FP. A man with a demon in him. The demon rises at Mid and enters him. He is not a king, he is the High Priest of the AC.
The lengths you are going to to 'defend this position' don't even have any more verses attached to it other than a repetition of the same one over and over.
All I need is one verse stating the facts.

You have yet to give a single verse that says the FP is king of anything.

You contradict Jude by having 200 million plus Fallen Angels released from the Pit when Jude say they will not be until Judgement Day, which is the White Throne.

You contradict John, who defines three distinct persons, Dragon, AC/First Beast and FP/Second Beast. he defines them Rev. 13 as 3 distinct persons. He defines them in the 6th Bowl as 3 distinct persons. He defines them as 3 distinct at the Second Coming. You have yet to explain why John is wrong in saying 3.
That tactic doesn't impress me.
What? Giving facts does not impress you?

To be honest, your dodging dealing with the verse I give puzzles me. You want your doctrine to work so badly you refuse to deal with them.

Further, you non-Triinitarian, soul sleep, giving God, Satan and angels flesh bodies also makes it impossible for you to deal with these issues. You would have to give up those doctrines to deal with the literal statements of what I pointed out, verse wise.

You are not literal in how you approach many things in the Bible. And that puts the burden on you to prove your non-literal claims, not me. But you cannot prove them because they are not literally in the Bible. Only in you figurative interpretations.

As with Christ. Bible says he dies after the 69th Week. After means either closing the 69th Week or immediately upon its closing. You rearrange the verse order and try to intvervene 3.5 years of the 70th Week.

You cannot do that. It violates the meaning of after.

You try to make the two princes Christ. You cannot do that because the first prince, by definition, is a Jewish one and the second a Gentile one. You you insist.

You try to make the person opening the 70th Week Christ. But Christ made no such covenant that was 7 years in length. He did not break the covenant. He did not set up an AoD and he will not perish at the end of the 70th Week, where you now try to make the person opening the 70th Week different from the one at Mid and closing.

You cannot grammatically do that.

You try to make Jerusalem Mystery Babylon. I showed you why it could not be, but you just keep on insisting.

No. I have presented a great deal of proof for my position. You have posted totally none related issues and tried to demand they apply.

My point here is that it is totally invalid to say I have not been backing my positions with proofs.

Rev. 13 and the Sixth Bowl more than make it clear there are 3 there. 3 distinct persons, two human and one Satan. And there are 3 bodies, two human and one statue indwelt by Satan.

Satan does not have a flesh body. Never did and never will.

I'm nt out to confront you on doctrine, I could care less if there is a pre-trib gathering in that some are taken to safety from having to face satan and other angelic beings, power to them. Where my objection comes in is when these same who would not wish to see how Christ deals with the most powerfull angel means that you or the Jews have any part other than being a witness. You say Jews will 'help hunt down' sinners..flat out wrong. You say that you are a part of the 'armies of Heaven' (yet taken away before satan is on Earth) only to go to Heaven to do what, fight in a war in Heaven? Come on, save you from Satan and a few angels to confront all the fallen ones?

Again, Fallen Angels are not in the Trib. They are not demons. They will remain in the Pit until Judgment Day.

We cannot even get around Jude. So how can we deal with the rest?

Devil means an evil spirit or lesser god.
It means in opposition to God, God says do not kill, the Devil will say it is okay to kill the same ones God would kill, that is His right not any mans, what you fail to observe is that many He has caused to be killed also will not see the Lake of Fire.

No. The KJV mistranslated here. As it does in many place.

Here is the word used in Rev. 16:14 and what it mens.

Strong's Number: 1142 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/browse.cgi?number=1142&version=kjv)Original WordWord Origindaivmwnfrom daio (to distribute fortunes)Transliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1142&version=kjv#Legend) EntryDaimon2:1,137Phonetic SpellingParts of Speechdah'-ee-mown http://bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=1142g) Noun Definition

a god, a goddess
an inferior deity, whether good or bad
in the NT, an evil spiritKing James Word Usage - Total: 5devils 4, devil 1

As well, Do not Kill is a bad translation. It is do not commit murder, which is different from the blanket statement of do not kill.

The False Trinity is a trinity of false gods. Thus this is saying in the combination of flesh and demon they are gods. And what came out is the spirit of the gods, the demons.
No Core, what comes out is their breath of life from God, the angel from the pit suffers the second death, Lake of Fire, the FP born in the flesh and in the spirit that gives knowledge of right and wrong gets double, two deaths at once. The two deaths might not be exclusive to just the Fp when all is said and done. When a righteous person dies it is a righteous spirit that comes out of them.

You keep mixing issues. Breath of life and a spirit are two different things.

Angels are all spirit. There is no spirit to come out of them.

And they do not die. Their 'First Death,' if you want to use that terminology, happened when they fell from Heaven before Adam was even created.

The dragon isn't the image;

Sure is.

I was hoping for something a little more authortive, like any Scripture that says Satan is the image,
[/quote]
I have repeatedly cited the 6th Bowl that shows an evil spirit in the dragaon.

Satan has no demon in him. Satan is an evil spirit. Yet here we have an evil spirit coming out of the dragon.[/quote]

Right, his first time to the pit, the angel from the pit has had his first death,(was and is not) it takes two deaths to get to the Lake.
[/quote]
That is totally off subject.

You keep trying to turn spirit into life.

Nothing leaves Satan. He is spirit to begin with. Spirit cannot come out of what is only spirit to start with.

He has to take on a body to have a body to come out of.

The statue makes a body. The statue has Satanic power. The Statue is worshipped. The Statue is in the Temple as god.

Satan is not going allow anyone that role or position but himself.

Dragon is Satan. To be called dragon and have an evil spirit come out demands Satan is in something. The statue fits the bill all the way.
Except one, there is no verse relating the two to being one another. Filling in voids doesn't work, you have to have a verse that plainly says what you promote. And that verse is ?

Get off that. You are filling in blanks all over with your the Statues is puppet of the FP. It does not say the FP controls the statue.

And, again. 3 in Rev 13 and 3 in the 6th Bowl. 3 evil spirits coming out. We see the AC demon and we see the FP demon. We see a statue coming to life and we see an evil spirit coming out of the Dragon.

It adds up. You claims do not.


what I have for verses say that the beast is given power from Satan and it is the beast that is responsible for both things the image can do;
Re:13:14:
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast;
saying to them that dwell on the earth,
that they should make an image to the beast,
which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Re:13:15:
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast,
that the image of the beast should both speak,
and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

It does not say the FP controls the statue. The FP cannot bring anything to life.

And it does not say the FP controls the statue. It says he brings it to life and then the image does these things on its own.
Vs 14 is about the command to build something, from the FP, the last one spoken of in that verse is the beast, that is who the he is in the next verse.

Verse 14 says he gets it built to bring to life.

Then it says what the Statue does. on its own. You add the puppet thing.

Again, where does the dragon get a body to come out of? What is the only reference to something amazingly of this nature in the Trib?

The statue coming to life, being worshipped and having power. An exact description of what Satan wants.


Again, you just disregard the 6th Bowl demands.

In the 6th Bowl the evil spirit comes out of the dragon.
Yes, the dragon. not the image, the image isn't mentioned because it is the beast that does the things the image can do. The image isn't even built. let alone standing where it ought not to be, when Satan is doing this;

You keep missing the point. The Dragon is Satan and Satan is a complete being. He has NO spirit within him to come out of him.

Is he alive, if he is then the spirit of breath is in him, it doesn't come any simpler than that.

You are misdefining spirit.

Angels, the Father, the Holy Spirit and all angels are spirits. No flesh bodies


Re:12:13:
And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth,
he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Re:12:14:
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle,
that she might fly into the wilderness,
into her place,
where she is nourished for a time,
and times,
and half a time,
from the face of the serpent.
Re:12:15:
And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman,
that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Re:12:16:
And the earth helped the woman,
and the earth opened her mouth,
and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Re:12:17:
And the dragon was wroth with the woman,
and went to make war with the remnant of her seed,
which keep the commandments of God,
and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Irrelevant.
Why, the right timeframe and the right name for one who is referrenced in Ch:16, the dragon.

This is before the 2nd Woe when he enters the Statue.
Take this verse as being very accurate in its timing,
Which is the First Woe and BEFORE satan empowers to AC and FP. But the AC is already king.
the beast has power, the beast has no power without Satan.
False. And this is before the statue is set up.

When Satan opens the pit from where the beast comes from,Satan releases the power of this fallen angel, this angel is still not as powerfull as Satan. Satan is at his most powerfull at the end of the thousand years.

It is not an angel. And it does not enter the AC. The AC is king. The FP Priest.
So when satan knows he has a short time is that 7 years?

No. He is cast down at Mid, leaving 3.5 years.

And you still avoid the declaration of the 6th Bowl that there are 3 with 3 evil spirits and one evil spirit is IN, not IS, the dragon.

Satan is a spirit to begin with. To come out of something he has to first enter into something. He cannot come out of himself.
It is well within the power of God to withdraw the Spirit of Life from anyone, including fallen angels, whenever he desires.

God does not EVER take life away from Satan. The 6th Bowl is not taking life from Satan, it is Satan caming out of a body called the dragon. Which means Satan is inside of something, the Statue.

That He does set a time and place for this also means this will be fullfilled at that day and time. The Lake of Fire is called the second death, twice dead means the Lake of Fire has now become their place, not dead just without God. They had knowledge of good and evil and they saw God's face, once you fall from there it leaves only one place to go.

Irrelevant.

This is 1,000 years before Judgement. This is Satan coming out of the Statue to gather armies. His body, the statue is still there. He is still there.
On his way down, at this point he is losing things not gathering more. Going to the pit means what?

There is no taking of life from the 3 in the 6th Bowl.

It says the evil spirit Satan/Dragon comes out of a physical body/statue/dragon.

You just refuse to deal with that head on. I mean the literal words.

Post them, not one verse says the dragon comes out of the dragon, not one.


And not one says the life comes out of them. Not one.

And is refuted by the simple fact Satan will never die, as in having his life removed.

That was not Christ speaking. But John and the angel seeing Christ.

Christ was not showing John around.
Really, how many besides Christ would dare use these words when talking about themselves;
Re:22:10:
And he saith unto me,
Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book:
for the time is at hand.
Re:22:11:
He that is unjust,
let him be unjust still:
and he which is filthy,
let him be filthy still:
and he that is righteous,
let him be righteous still:
and he that is holy,
let him be holy still.
Re:22:12:
And,
behold,
I come quickly;
and my reward is with me,
to give every man according as his work shall be.
Re:22:13:
I am Alpha and Omega,
the beginning and the end,
the first and the last.
Re:22:14:
Blessed are they that do his commandments,
that they may have right to the tree of life,
and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Re:22:15:
For without are dogs,
and sorcerers,
and whoremongers,
and murderers,
and idolaters,
and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Re:22:16:
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches.
I am the root and the offspring of David,
and the bright and morning star.

How could you possibly miss the author of those words, six other times Christ bears witness in just Revelations, that is why there are seven eyes in this;

There is the angel showing John around and there is Christ. There is not one person only speaking there.

Re:5:6:
And I b