Are The Jehovah’s Witnesses Christian?

[CoreIssue]

ARE THE JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES CHRISTIAN? (http://www.equip.org/free/CP0410.htm)

Jehovah’s Witnesses teach doctrines that are completely opposed to orthodox Christianity. For instance, they deny the Trinity, that Jesus is God, that salvation is by grace through faith, and that Christ rose from the dead in his own body. Despite their sincerity and dedication, we can only affirm that the Jehovah’s Witnesses are not Christians.

[Neachley]

No, they are not Christian. Unfortunately, they are leading many to hell with their distorted doctrines and false teachings. We need to pray for these people.

[Sid]

No, they are not Christian. Unfortunately, they are leading many to hell with their distorted doctrines and false teachings. We need to pray for these people.


The Jehovah's Witnesses are very deceptive in confusing their true teachings:



Jehovah's witnesses are very strongly cultic in both doctrine and behaviour, thus fitting both categories of false doctrine and mind control.

What they will tell you:
Jehovah's Witnesses are Christians (although this varies - some JWs will not say this).What they won't tell you:
They believe that all true Christian churches are of the devil.
They believe Jesus is not God, but is the Archangel Michael - the first being created by God.
They believe Jesus died on a stake, rather than a cross.
They deny that Jesus rose bodily from the dead.
They believe that ony 144,000 Jehovah's Witnesses will go to heaven. The rest will live forever in a paradise on Earth, never meeting the person who died for them - Jesus Christ.
They believe that salvation is impossible outside of the Watchtower.
They are not allowed to question the Watchtower leadership or teaching.
They claim you need to read the Watchtower's magazines and other material in order to understand the Bible correctly. If you don't read the Watchtower's books, you will "fall into darkness" - what they call reverting to normal Christianity.
They have falsely predicted the end of the world five times.
They have just changed a major Watchtower prediction that the end of the world would come before the generation of Witnesses born before 1914 died.
Jehovah's witnesses are very strongly cultic in both doctrine and behaviour (http://www.cultwatch.com/jw.html)

They also teach that the Holy Spirit is an impersonal force.


. . . some serious confusion.

[roman8]

I dont know alot about the JW , but I am curious, where do they get there info from ? I mean do they read the same bible ? Or did they make up there own.

[Sid]

I dont know alot about the JW , but I am curious, where do they get there info from ? I mean do they read the same bible ? Or did they make up there own.


Roman8:


I really don't know all that much about JWs except they deny the divinity of Jesus Christ, the Trinity and the Holy Spirit.

. . . right there makes them 0/3.


Here is a source that might answer all your questions. (http://www.carm.org/witnesses.htm)

[CoreIssue]

The JWs use their supposed translation, called the New World Translation, or the NWT.

But actually it was not 'translated' by an linquist, but the members of the Watcher Tower who created a version based on their doctrine.

So, things like John 1:1 change from the Word was God to the Word was a god.

They were founded by Russell, a con man. His history in con games and court make him an embarrassment to JWs. Judge Rutherford, who took over after Russel, also was a key founder.

Basically the con was that Russel was chosen by God, and along with Christ, in fact often in a higher place, would judge Man.

The Elect of the JWs would join Russell in Heaven to rule the earth and so on. That was 144,000.

Everyone else would stay on the earth. Interestingly, even in eternity one could loose their salvation on the earth.

No hell, but oblivion.

They have constantly prophesied the Second Coming and set dates. But failed.

I remember a Watchtower mag at a JWs house, giving one of those prophesies with open graves on the cover.

Of course, they now claim it never happend.

Salvation is by works. Among that recruiting new members when they go out two by two.

Not sure if they still do it, but they use to try to sell things, as well.

That is a quick overview. I am sure Sid's link will give a ton more info.

[wvpeach1963]

see for yourself roman 8 they have the same bible as we do. written in modern english.
( IE the thees and thous become you)

http://watchtower.org/bible/index.htm


I assure you the Jehovahs Wittness are a christian denomination much like any other.
One does have to wonder though why the world hates them so. After all God did warn that when you do his work the world will hate you and you should be worried if you find yourself tooloved by the world.

The JW certainly are unjustly lied about and hated by the world. I suspect its because they dilligently abey the Lords commandment to go forth and tell the good news of the kingdom to all the world. People living under Satans influence never want to have somebody knock on thier door to tell them about the Lord Jesus Christ.

[Sid]

I assure you the Jehovahs Wittness are a christian denomination much like any other.


Not as long as they believe that Jesus is really Michael the ArchAngel.




One does have to wonder though why the world hates them so.

For the same reason that darkness pretending to be light is rejected.

[wvpeach1963]

Sid my brother you are speaking a untruth about the Jehovahs Wittness's . In the battle to spread the good news of Jesus's kingdom to the whole world I would be remiss by not telling you of your mistaken belief against one denomination of your christian brothers and sisters. You see we need all Jesus 's followers to get the word out and the JW's are part of that group and deligent in trying to spread the good news of the kingdom.
They do not believe Jesus is Michael.
They believe Jesus is the son of God , part of the Godhead and that Jesus died for mankinds sins, his perfect blood ending the need for any other blood sacrifices there after.


But since you seem to be the stiff necked sort , I have provided a link above to thier web site. Find some proof of your silly claim and present it here.
I would think you would rush to do that on thier site, or else stay silent about a denomination of your brothers and sisters in christ you know nothing about .



Not as long as they believe that Jesus is really Michael the ArchAngel.






For the same reason that darkness pretending to be light is rejected.

[Sid]

Sid my brother you are speaking a untruth about the Jehovahs Wittness's . They do not believe Jesus is Michael.


Looks like the JWs have to confuse their theology to appear Christian



Find some proof of your silly claim and present it here.Here's a source that roasts JW's sacred cows:


Encounters between Christians and Jehovah's Witnesses typically revolve around a discussion of deity. The reason for this is twofold: 1) This is the area where Watchtower theology deviates most dramatically from orthodox Christianity. In contrast to the trinitarian concept of one God in three Persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the JWs have been taught to believe that God the Father alone is "Jehovah," the only true God; that Jesus Christ is Michael the archangel, the first angelic being created by God. . . .

. . . the Watchtower Society speaks of "Jesus Christ, whom we understand from the Scriptures to be Michael the archangel" (The Watchtower, February 15, 1979, p.31)

Point out to the JW that none of the verses he has attempted to use as prooftexts even comes close to stating that Jesus Christ is Michael the archangel. In fact, Scripture clearly teaches the opposite: namely, that the Son of God is superior to the angels. The entire first chapter of Hebrews is devoted to this theme. Have the Witness read Hebrews chapter one aloud with you, and, as you do so, interrupt to point out the sharp contrast between angels and the Son of God. "For to what angel did God ever say, 'Thou art my Son...?' And again, when he brings the first-born into the world, he says, 'Let all God's angels worship him'" (vv.5-6, Revised Standard Version).


Remind the JW that angels consistently refuse worship ("Be careful! Do not do that!...Worship God." -- Rev. 22:8-9, NWT), but the Father's command concerning the Son is, "Let all God's angels worship him" (Heb. 1:6). That is how the Watchtower's own New World Translation read for some 20 years until, in 1970, the Society changed it to read "do obeisance to him" instead of "worship him" -- part of their consistent campaign to eliminate from their Bible all references to the deity of Christ.




LINK (http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/web/crj0091a.html)

I would think you would rush to do that on thier site, or else stay silent about a denomination of your brothers and sisters in christ you know nothing about .

Looks like you are writing checks your ego can't cash.

[CoreIssue]

see for yourself roman 8 they have the same bible as we do. written in modern english.
( IE the thees and thous become you)

http://watchtower.org/bible/index.htm


I assure you the Jehovahs Wittness are a christian denomination much like any other.
One does have to wonder though why the world hates them so. After all God did warn that when you do his work the world will hate you and you should be worried if you find yourself tooloved by the world.

The JW certainly are unjustly lied about and hated by the world. I suspect its because they dilligently abey the Lords commandment to go forth and tell the good news of the kingdom to all the world. People living under Satans influence never want to have somebody knock on thier door to tell them about the Lord Jesus Christ.
This is a totally false statement.

The NWT translation is not the same Bible as we have.

No linquist accepts the NWT 'a god' instead 'is God' as with John 1:1, just to mention one error.

It was not translated by any linquist. It was cobbled together by the Watchtower, mainly one man, Franz, whose son later left the Tower and stated this very clearly. As was found out in court cases, under testimony, Franz could not read or write Greek or Hebrew.

Here is a list of some of the problems. It is obvious all the errors were deliberate and to make the Bible 'compatible' with Tower doctrine. Notice the central theme to the attacks is the deity of Christ.

Consider that when remembering John 4, where John tells us those who deny Christ is God incarnate in the flesh have another Christ, an Anti-Christ, and are not of God.

Read here. (http://www.towerwatch.com/Witnesses/New_World_Translation/nwt_errors.htm)

[CoreIssue]

They do not believe Jesus is Michael.
They believe Jesus is the son of God , part of the Godhead and that Jesus died for mankinds sins, his perfect blood ending the need for any other blood sacrifices there after.

They do not believe Christ is part of the Godhead. They do not believe the Holy Spirit is a person.

Over a 3 week period I have had 3 visits from JWs. Lasting about 3 hours each. First with 2 people and the last 2 with 3, including two higher elders from their Hall.

Most assuredly they reject Christ as equal to the Father, reject the Trinity, which they call a 3 headed monster and most assuredly say Christ's name in Heaven is Michael.

They teach Christ is a created being who became a god, not God. Not the Biblical teaching of God being Triune, with beginning and the Second Person incarnating the flesh called Christ.

They say all things were created by others for Christ, chaning the words of the Bible, which says all things were created by him and for him, with such as Gen 1 stating all are created by God.

So, no, the only false statements here are coming from you. You have either been decieved or don't want to see the truth.

[InTheWind]

I drove by a kingdom hall the other day, and just for couriosity sake i looked real hard for a cross. Couldn`t one be found, maybe they`er hiding them all inside.
I`ll agree with one thing wvpeach1963 said, they do need praying for, God have mercy. :(

[CoreIssue]

I drove by a kingdom hall the other day, and just for couriosity sake i looked real hard for a cross. Couldn`t one be found, maybe they`er hiding them all inside.
I`ll agree with one thing wvpeach1963 said, they do need praying for, God have mercy. :(
I have never seen a Hall that looks like a church. In any way.

Not that they have to. After all, the do not even use the word church about themselves.

[wvpeach1963]

getting nasty there are we sid ? Well I take it back. You are not my brother in Christ after all.

You speak a lie above plain and simple I have asked you to find any where on thier site that proves they believe Jesus is the arch angel Michael.

Back your lie up after all I have supplied you a link to thier web site.
Got news for you sid you won't find it it because your spreading gossip that is untrue at best. At worst your telling lies. Which is it?


Looks like the JWs have to confuse their theology to appear Christian



Here's a source that roasts JW's sacred cows:

Sure as I have said you can roast the sacred cows of most any christain denomination, because they all place thier own slant on the scriptures . For instance the catholics and thier priests forgiving sins and praying to Mary. Not biblical in my view. Yet the catholics are christians just like the rest of us profess to be.




Sid your comment below is not very christian like. Care to apologize.
Looks like you are writing checks your ego can't cash.

[wvpeach1963]

Wind they take very seriously Gods command to make no graven image . You will find no pictures or crosses at any kingdom hall.
As a matter of fact I had one of thier elders ask me about a cross in my own home one time . If your son died on something like that would you want it to be immortalized and hung everywhere like it was a good thing? He was right I wouldn't .
FYI they call the cross a torture stake. History backs this up in that wood was in short supply so people were crusified on a pole not a cross . With thier hands nailed high above them into the same stake. No cross bar was normally used.

I appreciate you understanding that we are to pray and support other christians not degrade them or spread gossip about them.

Good to meet you. I pray for a lot of denominations . That God work his ways among them and they bring God glory . Sounds like you do too.

I drove by a kingdom hall the other day, and just for couriosity sake i looked real hard for a cross. Couldn`t one be found, maybe they`er hiding them all inside.
I`ll agree with one thing wvpeach1963 said, they do need praying for, God have mercy. :(

[CoreIssue]

Sid didn't lie. Get over that.

Every JW that has come to my home has upheld that Michael is Christ.

I read it in old Watchtower mags from the 70s.

Now, am I lying as well?

Now, you need to do some reading beyond the JW website. They have volumes of books. I have some, in storage, for the the 1920s.

4. Jesus Christ (http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/jw.htm#The Jehovah's Witness "Jesus"). Since JWs do not believe in the Trinity, they also do not believe that Jesus is God in the flesh. They add the word "other" four times to Colossians 1:16,17, teaching that Christ was God's first creation, i.e., the reincarnation of Michael the archangel created by Jehovah, rather than the Creator. [The "Watchtower" teaches that Jehovah God created Michael the Archangel before the foundation of the world; Michael was His only begotten son by virtue of the fact that he was the only creature directly created by Jehovah. It was this created Michael who became the JW Jesus (i.e., a denial of the eternality of Christ). JWs say that "Since actual conception took place, it appears that Jehovah God caused an ovum or egg in Mary's womb to become fertile, accomplishing this by the transfer of the life of his first born son (Michael) from the spirit realm to the earth" (Aid to Bible Understanding, p. 920). "Marvelously, Jehovah transferred the life-force and the personality pattern of his first born heavenly son (Michael) to the womb of Mary. God's own active force, his holy spirit, safeguarded the development of the child in Mary's womb so that what was born was a perfect human" (Reasoning, p. 255).] JWs also add an "a" in John 1:1, making the verse read, "the Word was a god" (which in essence, makes the JWs guilty of the same polytheism of which they accuse Trinitarians).


That is JW material you will NOT find on their Internet site.

[InTheWind]

Wind they take very seriously Gods command to make no graven image . You will find no pictures or crosses at any kingdom hall.
As a matter of fact I had one of thier elders ask me about a cross in my own home one time . If your son died on something like that would you want it to be immortalized and hung everywhere like it was a good thing? He was right I wouldn't .
FYI they call the cross a torture stake. History backs this up in that wood was in short supply so people were crusified on a pole not a cross . With thier hands nailed high above them into the same stake. No cross bar was normally used.

I appreciate you understanding that we are to pray and support other christians not degrade them or spread gossip about them.

Good to meet you. I pray for a lot of denominations . That God work his ways among them and they bring God glory . Sounds like you do too.

Nice to meet you and thanks, i agree they need praying for but i do not agree with any of their teachings. I hope you stay around long enough and have a open mind and willing to learn some truths about these people.
Remember this is a debate and discussion board where all doctrine is to be backed up by scripture.
Please don`t get offended by different views, like they say, live and learn. :):

[CoreIssue]

I will go ahead and kick in some other references to JW material for you to study to either educate you on your lack of understanding about JWs or to stop you trying to defend lies, which ever the case may be.

Go find these JW volumes, mags and publications referenced here (http://contenderministries.org/jehovahswitnesses/comparison.php). Confirm it all for yourself. I have done so over the years. Your turn.

You see many things here they do not like to be made public.

[CoreIssue]

Nice to meet you and thanks, i agree they need praying for but i do not agree with any of their teachings. I hope you stay around long enough and have a open mind and willing to learn some truths about these people.
Remember this is a debate and discussion board where all doctrine is to be backed up by scripture.
Please don`t get offended by different views, like they say, live and learn. :):

Well said. :D

[InTheWind]

Here`s some additional info.
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/j02.html

[wvpeach1963]

Core its simple to prove.
Look at the web site and compare the translations. I assure you they are the same.
Very similiar to the New International Version of the KJV.
Have you compared the translation on the site Core?
Its a simple thing to do

You should know better than to take somebody else's word for it.
in a matter as important as slandering your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ

Or do you prefer to go on believing a lie about a denomination of your fellow christians.
personally I would be wary of that . Speaking ill against our brothers and sisters will not go unnoticed by God IMHO

I understand that you have posted a good bit about the Jehovahs Wittness's here that is not flattering and I understand you did it because you believed what you posted. Its simple to amend those posts after all you are the site owner I assume. I looked briefly at the others you have down as cults and know nothing about them, but I do know the Wittness's and they are fellow christians. Devout ones to boot.
I will take a look at that section again to make sure I'm not helping to slam another christian denomination thats on the list myself with the above statement I just made. Its just that serious, believe me.


However I have told you they are fellow christians and provided you a link to search that out for your self. Don't bother to tell me what somebody else says till you've searched for the truth yourself.

people claim now that all catholic priest are pedofiles and thats a lie.
people slam the methodists for ordaining women and homosexuals , but I assure you many of our brothers and sisters in christ still go to methodist church"s

However I assure you that if you compare translations you will find it the same as the KJV , just in more modern language. No thees and thous , but everything else the same. The site also has lots of info on what they believe about Jesus.

So are you saying that for the sake of not admitting you were wrong to call them unchristian , you will continue to do so without taking the time to investigate it yourself?

I'm telling you , they are christians , like it or not.
Doesn't really matter because God is the one opinion that that does matter.




This is a totally false statement.

The NWT translation is not the same Bible as we have.

No linquist accepts the NWT 'a god' instead 'is God' as with John 1:1, just to mention one error.

It was not translated by any linquist. It was cobbled together by the Watchtower, mainly one man, Franz, whose son later left the Tower and stated this very clearly. As was found out in court cases, under testimony, Franz could not read or write Greek or Hebrew.

Here is a list of some of the problems. It is obvious all the errors were deliberate and to make the Bible 'compatible' with Tower doctrine. Notice the central theme to the attacks is the deity of Christ.

Consider that when remembering John 4, where John tells us those who deny Christ is God incarnate in the flesh have another Christ, an Anti-Christ, and are not of God.

Read here. (http://www.towerwatch.com/Witnesses/New_World_Translation/nwt_errors.htm)

[CoreIssue]

Core its simple to prove.
Look at the web site and compare the translations. I assure you they are the same.
Very similiar to the New International Version of the KJV.
Have you compared the translation on the site Core?
Its a simple thing to do
They most assuredly are not the same.

It is a totally false translation that completely changes the meaning of John 1:1 to say 'a god' and not is God.

And I have read directly from the NWT in my home. The NWT changes Christ from God to 'a god.' Changes all thing were created by him and for him to created by others for him.

It is a false translation that no linquist will back. They all reject it totally.

Read from the JW site (http://www.watchtower.org/e/rq/index.htm?article=article_11.htm) that Christ is not God, but a created being.

That TOTALLY changes the meaning. Totally stripes Christ of his equality with the Father and Holy Spirit as being part of the Triune Godhead.

The JWs absolutely reject the Trinity. The Holy Spirit is not even a person to them. It is a power/force, not a person.

Read for yourself from the JW site. (http://www.watchtower.org/e/rq/index.htm?article=article_11.htm)

The Holy Spirit is a force, not a person. (http://www.watchtower.org/e/rq/index.htm?article=article_11.htm)

You don't know me. But those who do know I don't make statements I cannot back.

You should know better than to take somebody else's word for it.
in a matter as important as slandering your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ
I posted the JWs say it themselves. First hand facts, not second hand as you are trying to claim.

You have an impossible task if you try to say they don't believe what they say themselves about themselves.
Or do you prefer to go on believing a lie about a denomination of your fellow christians.
personally I would be wary of that . Speaking ill against our brothers and sisters will not go unnoticed by God IMHO

I have not lied. I have backed my claims. You have not back yours.

I DID post verses stating to deny Christ is God makes one an Anti-Christ and false Christian. You have posted nothing to back your claims that I am wrong.
I understand that you have posted a good bit about the Jehovahs Wittness's here that is not flattering and I understand you did it because you believed what you posted.
I did it because it is true.
Its simple to amend those posts after all you are the site owner I assume.
Yes, I could change them with ease.

But no, I am not about to when they are true and evidenced backed.
I looked briefly at the others you have down as cults and know nothing about them, but I do know the Wittness's and they are fellow christians. Devout ones to boot.
Then you either do not know them, do not know being a Christian is more than a mind set or emotional state or do not understand what the Bible says at all.

I posted verses that declare them non-Christian, making them a cult by definition. I have yet to see a single verse from you saying I am wrong, just claims from a personal desire.

I understand he is your husband. But that does not change Truth.
I will take a look at that section again to make sure I'm not helping to slam another christian denomination thats on the list myself with the above statement I just made. Its just that serious, believe me.
Yes. Dismissing false doctrine that the Bible declares God will not tolerate is a very serious matter.

Many will stand before Christ, pleading their works, only to be told they never belonged to him.

No one who depends on works for salvation belong to him. None who deny his Godhood are his either.
However I have told you they are fellow christians and provided you a link to search that out for your self. Don't bother to tell me what somebody else says till you've searched for the truth yourself.

people claim now that all catholic priest are pedofiles and thats a lie.

I don't know of any who have said all.

But I most assuredly state they teach a false salvation.
people slam the methodists for ordaining women and homosexuals , but I assure you many of our brothers and sisters in christ still go to methodist church"s

Does not make them followers of sound doctrine, now does it?
However I assure you that if you compare translations you will find it the same as the KJV , just in more modern language. No thees and thous , but everything else the same. The site also has lots of info on what they believe about Jesus.

Garbage. It is not the same as the KJV. It is not a modern translation. It does not agree with any other version.

It is not a translation, but a doctrinal alteration.

And yes, it says what they believe about Jesus. That he is a created being, not God incarnate.

Add to that the other JW books I gave you links to, and you clearly see they believe is the Michael, the Arch Angel.

For someone who claims to know so much about the JWs, you truly have a lot the learn. Or need to take the blinders off to see the truth.
So are you saying that for the sake of not admitting you were wrong to call them unchristian , you will continue to do so without taking the time to investigate it yourself?

I'm telling you , they are christians , like it or not.
Doesn't really matter because God is the one opinion that that does matter.
Thowing out false accusations that I have not studied does not change the fact.

I gave you links and references to JW materials backing everthing I said. Now YOU go study and learn the truth.

I am a Biblical literalists and reject the idea society and culture can alter the meaning of the Bible. Obviously, you are not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreIssue http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showthread.php?p=15982#post15982)
This is a totally false statement.

The NWT translation is not the same Bible as we have.

No linquist accepts the NWT 'a god' instead 'is God' as with John 1:1, just to mention one error.

It was not translated by any linquist. It was cobbled together by the Watchtower, mainly one man, Franz, whose son later left the Tower and stated this very clearly. As was found out in court cases, under testimony, Franz could not read or write Greek or Hebrew.

Here is a list of some of the problems. It is obvious all the errors were deliberate and to make the Bible 'compatible' with Tower doctrine. Notice the central theme to the attacks is the deity of Christ.

Consider that when remembering John 4, where John tells us those who deny Christ is God incarnate in the flesh have another Christ, an Anti-Christ, and are not of God.

Read here. (http://www.towerwatch.com/Witnesses/New_World_Translation/nwt_errors.htm)

Did you read? it is chrystal clear the NWT is not a true Bible. It is an altered version intended to teach JW doctrine.

[wvpeach1963]

Core I see no proof in your posts of anything. Proofs is a link with chapter and verse. I have given you thier web site with a complete translation of the bible and you've given me no proof. your stating your beliefs and the beliefs of others as the gospel. Back that up with links and chapter and verse please.

They most assuredly are not the same.

It is a totally false translation that completely changes the meaning of John 1:1 to say 'a god' and not is God.


your spliting Hairs with this is God and a God Core.

It is a false translation that no linquist will back. They all reject it totally.

Read from the JW site (http://www.watchtower.org/e/rq/index.htm?article=article_11.htm) that Christ is not God, but a created being.

Get me a link from the Jehovah's Wittness site that says christ is not God . Above you claim its a problem because the translation reads " a God" yet now you claim they reject he is God?

The JWs absolutely reject the Trinity. The Holy Spirit is not even a person to them. It is a power/force, not a person.

Read for yourself from the JW site. (http://www.watchtower.org/e/rq/index.htm?article=article_11.htm)

The Holy Spirit is a force, not a person. (http://www.watchtower.org/e/rq/index.htm?article=article_11.htm)

Where does the bible call the Holy Spirit a person ? The holy Spirit is one with God and Christ. I am aware of nowhere in the bible the holy spirit is called a person. But I am always eager to learn so I'll await your link showing the Holy Spirit is a person. Spirit is a spirit , as in Holy Spirit.

You don't know me. But those who do know I don't make statements I cannot back.


I posted the JWs say it themselves. First hand facts, not second hand as you are trying to claim.

You have an impossible task if you try to say they don't believe what they say themselves about themselves.


I have not lied. I have backed my claims. You have not back yours.

I DID post verses stating to deny Christ is God makes one an Anti-Christ and false Christian. You have posted nothing to back your claims that I am wrong.

You are speaking things , that does not make them true. I have provided you with a link to thier bible and web site, so if you intend to continue to claim such things shouldn't you take the time to find them on the site?

I did it because it is true.

Yes, I could change them with ease.

But no, I am not about to when they are true and evidenced backed.

I ask then for the evidence , is a link too much to ask. I'm sure thier bible translation and tracts are downloadable, so evidence should not be hard for you to find.

Then you either do not know them, do not know being a Christian is more than a mind set or emotional state or do not understand what the Bible says at all.

I posted verses that declare them non-Christian, making them a cult by definition. I have yet to see a single verse from you saying I am wrong, just claims from a personal desire.

This has nothing to do with personal desire. Tommorrow if my husband rejected Christ he would find himself alone. A fellow believer in Christ was my most important consideration in choosing a mate I assure you. This has to do with the truth core.
And the truth is they believe Jesus Christ died for our sins the perfect blood shed that no other sacrifice would ever be needed. That makes them christian. Your splitting hairs doesn't change that fact.

I understand he is your husband. But that does not change Truth.

Yes. Dismissing false doctrine that the Bible declares God will not tolerate is a very serious matter.

Many will stand before Christ, pleading their works, only to be told they never belonged to him.

No one who depends on works for salvation belong to him. None who deny his Godhood are his either.

I don't know of any who have said all.

But I most assuredly state they teach a false salvation.

Does not make them followers of sound doctrine, now does it?

Garbage. It is not the same as the KJV. It is not a modern translation. It does not agree with any other version.

It is not a translation, but a doctrinal alteration.

And yes, it says what they believe about Jesus. That he is a created being, not God incarnate.
explain to me the mystery of the Holy trinity then core since God seems to have divulged it to you?

Add to that the other JW books I gave you links to, and you clearly see they believe is the Michael, the Arch Angel.

I saw no link saying they believe Jesus is Michael the arch angel. Can you post that here for my review?

For someone who claims to know so much about the JWs, you truly have a lot the learn. Or need to take the blinders off to see the truth.

[B]Thowing out false accusations that I have not studied does not change the fact.

I gave you links and references to JW materials backing everthing I said. Now YOU go study and learn the truth.

Links to entire works are not links. How about chapter and verse as thats what its really all about core.

I am a Biblical literalists and reject the idea society and culture can alter the meaning of the Bible. Obviously, you are not.
Quote:

So Jesus , Our Lord and savior , God warned that any man that changed the bible would be dealt with severly. Yet you don't believe that anything has ever been added to the translations or taken out? Strange that our Lord Christ would make such a statement if it wasn't something he knew would happen. After all he is God.
How about the Maccabee's? Missing from the KJV but present in the catholic version who were the people that translated the KJV after all. If the catholics had it so perfect then why did we leave out the macabees in later versions of the KJV?
Originally Posted by [B]CoreIssue http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showthread.php?p=15982#post15982)
This is a totally false statement.

The NWT translation is not the same Bible as we have.

No linquist accepts the NWT 'a god' instead 'is God' as with John 1:1, just to mention one error.

It was not translated by any linquist. It was cobbled together by the Watchtower, mainly one man, Franz, whose son later left the Tower and stated this very clearly. As was found out in court cases, under testimony, Franz could not read or write Greek or Hebrew.

Here is a list of some of the problems. It is obvious all the errors were deliberate and to make the Bible 'compatible' with Tower doctrine. Notice the central theme to the attacks is the deity of Christ.

Consider that when remembering John 4, where John tells us those who deny Christ is God incarnate in the flesh have another Christ, an Anti-Christ, and are not of God.

Read here. (http://www.towerwatch.com/Witnesses/New_World_Translation/nwt_errors.htm)

Did you read? it is chrystal clear the NWT is not a true Bible. It is an altered version intended to teach JW doctrine.

[wvpeach1963]

As in all things pertaining to God , the truth is whats really important here core.
I am very willing to leave you to your incorrect thinking if thats what you want .
Slandering christians is not something I will be a part of.

So just say the word and I'm gone.

[InTheWind]

It is easy to see why so many will be deceived by the AC, Jw`s are probably the most well documented and known cult there is. They hold class to twist and counter anything anyone tries to tell them. And then if they do see the light they are shun from the cult.
I pray for you peach that the scales are removed from your eyes.:pray:

[wvpeach1963]

I thank you for your prayers wind. Prayer never hurts. I assure you that there are no scales on my eyes where the things of God are concerned .

But a prayer for the removal of such scales can never hurt. After all I do tend to give people too much credit for being decent human beings from time to time even though my spirit warns me not to. I know in the spirit that God through his Holy Spirit often warns me away from certain lost people as they are not my area of concern. Yet I feel too much for the lost and often try to help. Since that wasn't God's will its often a waste of time.
I'm trying hard to break that time wasting habit. After all if its not God's plan its always a waste of time.

I appreciate your prayers, as I know God will use them for his Good purposes.

[Sid]

I assure you that there are no scales on my eyes where the things of God are concerned .


When I read your posts, the Spirit in me is doing summersaults.

. . . of course then, I believe He is the third person of the Trinity and not an impersonal force.

[CoreIssue]

Core I see no proof in your posts of anything. Proofs is a link with chapter and verse. I have given you thier web site with a complete translation of the bible and you've given me no proof. your stating your beliefs and the beliefs of others as the gospel. Back that up with links and chapter and verse please.

Then read.

I have proven the NWT is a perversion of the Bible. John 1:1 strips Christ of his diety by falsely rewording the 'and the Word was God' to 'the Word was a god.'

If you cannot open up the NWT and lay it down next to a KJV, NKJV, NIV, NASB and every other transation and see that, then it is because you don't want to see it.

That is but one of many problems pointed out. It is not a translation. No linquist had any part if writing it.

I gave you links to the Watchtower, itself, stating anti-Christian and anti-Biblical teachings.

Christians do not reject the deity of Christ, do not reject the Trinity, do not change salvation and do mischief to the core of being Christian.
They most assuredly are not the same.
It is a totally false translation that completely changes the meaning of John 1:1 to say 'a god' and not is God.
your spliting Hairs with this is God and a God Core.

Garbage!

God, Elohim, is a triune Godhead of 3 equal personage. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The JWs strip Christ, the Second Person of the Trinity, of his Godhead. He is not of God, but created by the Father. A lower being made a god, but not God.

The Holy Spirit isn't even a person in the JW beliefs. He is a force, a power, an aspect of the Father.

There is NO Trinity in the JW beliefs. That God is completely redefined into another god.

That is not splitting hairs. Rejecting deliberate and malicious perversion of the Bible is not splitting hairs.
It is a false translation that no linquist will back. They all reject it totally.

Read from the JW site (http://www.watchtower.org/e/rq/index.htm?article=article_11.htm) that Christ is not God, but a created being.

Get me a link from the Jehovah's Wittness site that says christ is not God . Above you claim its a problem because the translation reads " a God" yet now you claim they reject he is God?

I did! Those underlines words, in several places, ARE LINKS! Click them!
The JWs absolutely reject the Trinity. The Holy Spirit is not even a person to them. It is a power/force, not a person.

Read for yourself from the JW site. (http://www.watchtower.org/e/rq/index.htm?article=article_11.htm)

The Holy Spirit is a force, not a person. (http://www.watchtower.org/e/rq/index.htm?article=article_11.htm)

Where does the bible call the Holy Spirit a person ? The holy Spirit is one with God and Christ. I am aware of nowhere in the bible the holy spirit is called a person. But I am always eager to learn so I'll await your link showing the Holy Spirit is a person. Spirit is a spirit , as in Holy Spirit.

What! So your problem is you embrace this false doctrine as well.

Do you realize that in the Bible Christ is equal to the Father in his divinity? That he the Second Person of the Godhead and he took on human flesh? He is not a god. He, with the Father and Holy Spirit are God?

The Father IS a spirit. He is not flesh.

Angels ARE spirits, they are not flesh.

YOU are espousing non Christian doctrines and core beliefs.

Read here. (http://www.carm.org/doctrine/holyspirit.htm)

God is not a name. It is a title. It comes from the word elohim, which means more than one person. When used with singulars, it means a special unity of one something.

Not aspects, attributes or any such thing of one person. But more than one person in a single functional unity. Like an army, council, marrage, family and so on.

The Shama of Israel is:

The Lord (singular) our God (el/singular) is one God (Gods, uniplural Elohim). Literally says 'The Lord our God is one Gods.

The Great Commission uses the Greek kai, and says in the name of before the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Name means power and authority of. Kai demands personage. Meaning these are 3 distinct persons.

Trinity means triunity. It is a theological term stating the 3 (tri) together are one God. 3 persons, not anything else.
You don't know me. But those who do know I don't make statements I cannot back.


I posted the JWs say it themselves. First hand facts, not second hand as you are trying to claim.

You have an impossible task if you try to say they don't believe what they say themselves about themselves.

Which means you are not reading. I posted what they said about their own beliefs, which confirms everything I said.

To say they declare themselves Christians make them Christians is a foolish claim. One must be in harmony with God's demands, not a cults demands, to be a real Christian.

I have you links and proofs to all I said. From their own pages. YOU are not reading the materials. Which is not my fault.

And YOU are embracing at least some of their false doctrines. Which, again, does not make them Christians. Or you, for that matter, if you are in harmony with them in denying Christ's deity and what Biblical salvation is.
I have not lied. I have backed my claims. You have not back yours.

I DID post verses stating to deny Christ is God makes one an Anti-Christ and false Christian. You have posted nothing to back your claims that I am wrong.

You are speaking things , that does not make them true. I have provided you with a link to thier bible and web site, so if you intend to continue to claim such things shouldn't you take the time to find them on the site?
I gave you direct verse posts, from the Bible, declaring them non-Christian. Do you think links from them calling themselves Christian, when the links I gave, from them, proving they fall under the condemnation of John 4, override John 4? Or negate John 1 or the verses defining salvation.

You are demonstrating classical cult behavior. You constantly run to their materials as if they are the authority and superior to the Bible.

Post the verses that say I am wrong. Not their doctrines against the deity or Christ or the Holy Spirit. Show me why the verses I posted do not reject them.

Not by jumping to other verses and spinning them. Not by linking to their claims. But explain exactly why those verses are lies. Why they don't mean exactly what they say.
I did it because it is true.

Yes, I could change them with ease.

But no, I am not about to when they are true and evidenced backed.

I ask then for the evidence , is a link too much to ask. I'm sure thier bible translation and tracts are downloadable, so evidence should not be hard for you to find.

Stop repeatedly asking for what I already gave you. Click the links and read. Read the verses I copied and pasted right into the posts.

Stop pretending I didn't give the information. Go back and actually READ the materials.

Then respond. This pretending I am guilty of not giving the information is classic cult. Refusing to look at the links or assuming you know what they say already.

Read, the respond. But stop saying I didn't post it.

We have seen this tactic over and over and over. Everyone but the person doing the posting seeing the links and materials asked for are there.
Then you either do not know them, do not know being a Christian is more than a mind set or emotional state or do not understand what the Bible says at all.

I posted verses that declare them non-Christian, making them a cult by definition. I have yet to see a single verse from you saying I am wrong, just claims from a personal desire.

This has nothing to do with personal desire. Tommorrow if my husband rejected Christ he would find himself alone. A fellow believer in Christ was my most important consideration in choosing a mate I assure you. This has to do with the truth core.
And the truth is they believe Jesus Christ died for our sins the perfect blood shed that no other sacrifice would ever be needed. That makes them christian. Your splitting hairs doesn't change that fact.

They reject his diety. They reject salvation is 100% by grace. They, and you, place your salvation in your own hands, nullifying grace.

They do not believe in the Biblical Christ. They have another Christ, Michael, the Arch Angel, made a god, but never God.

As the Bible says, many Christs come to the world. And they are anti-Christs.

We are clearly told such teach another salvation. JWs do. They teach salvation by works. And they have another Christ. JWs do. They reject his deity and make him an elevated angel.
I understand he is your husband. But that does not change Truth.

Yes. Dismissing false doctrine that the Bible declares God will not tolerate is a very serious matter.

Many will stand before Christ, pleading their works, only to be told they never belonged to him.

No one who depends on works for salvation belong to him. None who deny his Godhood are his either.

I don't know of any who have said all.

But I most assuredly state they teach a false salvation.

Does not make them followers of sound doctrine, now does it?

Garbage. It is not the same as the KJV. It is not a modern translation. It does not agree with any other version.

It is not a translation, but a doctrinal alteration.

And yes, it says what they believe about Jesus. That he is a created being, not God incarnate.
explain to me the mystery of the Holy trinity then core since God seems to have divulged it to you?
What mystery? It is defined in the Bible.

Elohim as a uniplural, used for God, means more than on in a single unity. God is not a name, but a title. The title of the unity of the 3.

We see the 3 at his baptism. Father in Heaven, Son on earth with the Holy Spirit descending on him.

We see the 3 in the Great Commission, by the power of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The link shows the personage of the Holy Spirit.

We see the 3 appearing to Abram. One Lord answering with 3 voices.

Where is the mystery?
Add to that the other JW books I gave you links to, and you clearly see they believe is the Michael, the Arch Angel.

I saw no link saying they believe Jesus is Michael the arch angel. Can you post that here for my review?

Then you have not pursued the JW books and volumes I gave in the reference. Do you really think all their materials are on that site? They have libraries of additional materials and teachings.

I posted the quotes from the materials.
4. Jesus Christ (http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/jw.htm#The Jehovah's Witness "Jesus"). Since JWs do not believe in the Trinity, they also do not believe that Jesus is God in the flesh. They add the word "other" four times to Colossians 1:16,17, teaching that Christ was God's first creation, i.e., the reincarnation of Michael the archangel created by Jehovah, rather than the Creator. [The "Watchtower" teaches that Jehovah God created Michael the Archangel before the foundation of the world; Michael was His only begotten son by virtue of the fact that he was the only creature directly created by Jehovah. It was this created Michael who became the JW Jesus (i.e., a denial of the eternality of Christ). JWs say that "Since actual conception took place, it appears that Jehovah God caused an ovum or egg in Mary's womb to become fertile, accomplishing this by the transfer of the life of his first born son (Michael) from the spirit realm to the earth" (Aid to Bible Understanding, p. 920). "Marvelously, Jehovah transferred the life-force and the personality pattern of his first born heavenly son (Michael) to the womb of Mary. God's own active force, his holy spirit, safeguarded the development of the child in Mary's womb so that what was born was a perfect human" (Reasoning, p. 255).] JWs also add an "a" in John 1:1, making the verse read, "the Word was a god" (which in essence, makes the JWs guilty of the same polytheism of which they accuse Trinitarians).
Go read those volumes. Here (http://www.reexamine.info/70s/AID.pdf)is the 'Aid' online. It is a 457 MEG document. Enjoy the load time.
For someone who claims to know so much about the JWs, you truly have a lot the learn. Or need to take the blinders off to see the truth.

Thowing out false accusations that I have not studied does not change the fact.
Since when did your not studying them make them false accusations? All it says is that you do not know as much as you think you do.

I gave you links and references to JW materials backing everthing I said. Now YOU go study and learn the truth.

[B]Links to entire works are not links. How about chapter and verse as thats what its really all about core.

That says you didn't read what I posted. It gave you the page numbers to go to.

Don't try to qualify what you will accept as evidence. It don't get better than giving you a quote from the page and the document and page number.

I am still waiting for you to respond to the Bible verses I posted. Very telling you are dodging them.
I am a Biblical literalists and reject the idea society and culture can alter the meaning of the Bible. Obviously, you are not.
Quote:

So Jesus , Our Lord and savior , God warned that any man that changed the bible would be dealt with severly. Yet you don't believe that anything has ever been added to the translations or taken out? Strange that our Lord Christ would make such a statement if it wasn't something he knew would happen. After all he is God.
How about the Maccabee's? Missing from the KJV but present in the catholic version who were the people that translated the KJV after all. If the catholics had it so perfect then why did we leave out the macabees in later versions of the KJV?
He didn't say Bible. Bible is biblios, which means collection of books and writings. He said scriptures.

Maccabees was never recognized by the Jews as Bible. Christ never referenced it, but did reference all the Jewish OT.

Catholics never set Biblical canon for the Church. Only for the RCC. And added a lot of other manmade stuff as equal to or superior.

Not a smart thing trying to use the RCC to establish what is and is not Bible.

And your historical is lacking. The KJV was Church of England, not RCC.

The true Bible has always been present. In spite of the RCC.

Any student of Bible history knows the RCC never dominated Christiandom totally. Knows that other kept and read non-RCC Bibles. Never accepted the RCC.

Again, you bite into cult claims that come from the JW, LDS and such in attempts to justify their writings.

By the way, I am rully aware that your denomination, Church of Christ, consideres itself the true restored Church. Another reason it is considered cult by many.
Originally Posted by [B]CoreIssue http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showthread.php?p=15982#post15982)
This is a totally false statement.

The NWT translation is not the same Bible as we have.

No linquist accepts the NWT 'a god' instead 'is God' as with John 1:1, just to mention one error.

It was not translated by any linquist. It was cobbled together by the Watchtower, mainly one man, Franz, whose son later left the Tower and stated this very clearly. As was found out in court cases, under testimony, Franz could not read or write Greek or Hebrew.

Here is a list of some of the problems. It is obvious all the errors were deliberate and to make the Bible 'compatible' with Tower doctrine. Notice the central theme to the attacks is the deity of Christ.

Consider that when remembering John 4, where John tells us those who deny Christ is God incarnate in the flesh have another Christ, an Anti-Christ, and are not of God.

Read here. (http://www.towerwatch.com/Witnesses/New_World_Translation/nwt_errors.htm)

Did you read? it is chrystal clear the NWT is not a true Bible. It is an altered version intended to teach JW doctrine.
Obviously, you did not read.

[wvpeach1963]

Core please referr to my post to Lucky Strike in the ther Jehovah Wittness thread you have on this forum. I completed most of it just ahead of you posting your answer in this thread.

I thank you for taking considerable time in your answer here. It appears lengthy , so I will come back and in fact save it to my computer now so that I can give your post the time it deserves .

At this moment I have dinner to fix for company thats coming shortly.

But I promise to give your post my time and attention soon God willing.

[wvpeach1963]

When I read your posts, the Spirit in me is doing summersaults.

. . . of course then, I believe He is the third person of the Trinity and not an impersonal force.


Sid please supply scripture for your belief that the Holy Spirit or Ghost is a person ?

I am interested as to why you believe a ghost or spirit is a person as you say.

[Sid]

Sid please supply scripture for your belief that the Holy Spirit or Ghost is a person ? I am interested as to why you believe a ghost or spirit is a person as you say.




The Holy Spirit came forth from the Father and Son to convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgment, and to regenerate, sanctify, and empower for ministry all who believe in Christ.

The Holy Spirit indwells every believer in Jesus Christ and is constantly at work convicting, teaching, guiding and comforting.

The true believer receives the Holy Spirit and is baptised into the Body of Christ at conversion, but the Spirit's empowering for godly living, ministry, and mission must be sought and activated by faith.

Through the indwelling Holy Spirit we can experience repeated fillings and a progressive liberation from the bondage of sin, Satan, and the world.




The Personality of the Holy Spirit:


Proved by His Characteristics:


He is intelligent:

1 Corinthians 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.


He can be greived (has feelings) :


Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


He has independence and will:


1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.


Proved by His Works:


He teaches:


John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


He guides:


Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.


He commissions:


Acts 13:4 So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.


He commands men:


Acts 8:29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.


He restrains:


Genesis 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.


He intercedes:


Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.


He speaks:


John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:


2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


Proved by What is Ascribed to Him:


He can be obeyed:

Acts 10:19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.
20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.
21 Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?


He can be lied to:


Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?


He can be resisted:


Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.


He can be reverenced:


Psalm 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.


He can be blasphemed:


Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.


He can be outraged:


Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


Proved by Unusual Grammar:


In spite of the fact that the Greek word for Spirit is neuter in gender, several times masculine pronouns are used to replace the neuter noun, contradicting all normal rules of grammar but indicating the personality of the Spirit.



John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:


--- from the outline notes in the Ryrie Study Bible.

[CoreIssue]

Core please referr to my post to Lucky Strike in the ther Jehovah Wittness thread you have on this forum. I completed most of it just ahead of you posting your answer in this thread.

I thank you for taking considerable time in your answer here. It appears lengthy , so I will come back and in fact save it to my computer now so that I can give your post the time it deserves .

At this moment I have dinner to fix for company thats coming shortly.

But I promise to give your post my time and attention soon God willing.
I saw that post. And it does the classical cult angle of jumping away from the proofs provided against what is being said and goes to stock verses with attemps to spin the meanings into someting else.

I will wait for your response on my materials. I appreciate them.

But understand, on a discussion and debate board, when you make claims and accusations, you are obliged to respond directly to the others refutations. So far you have not done that. You have just continued to present the scripted JW presentations.

What I gave are most assuredly from the Watchtower, itself. And from the Bible. No anti-JW site.

And it says EXACTLY what I have stated and what you are trying to deny as being true.

If the Watchtower does not know what JWs believe, then no one does, since they determine what is believed.

The 'Aids' finally completed downloading and opening. Published by the Watchtower, itself, in 1971.

Concerning Christ they immediately launch into the arguments of his being Michael, an angel.

Sorry, you will have to look yourself. I have the free version for PDF, thus I cannot copy from it.

You need to first acknowledge the JW position of Christ being Michael. Then explain their perversion of John 1 and other places to try to make the NWT fit their doctrines.

There is no way to not acknowledge their doctrine since I gave you their materials that clearly state it.

[CoreIssue]

To make your answering easier I will gather the materials you need to answer here.


4. Jesus Christ (http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/jw.htm#The Jehovah's Witness "Jesus"). Since JWs do not believe in the Trinity, they also do not believe that Jesus is God in the flesh. They add the word "other" four times to Colossians 1:16,17, teaching that Christ was God's first creation, i.e., the reincarnation of Michael the archangel created by Jehovah, rather than the Creator. [The "Watchtower" teaches that Jehovah God created Michael the Archangel before the foundation of the world; Michael was His only begotten son by virtue of the fact that he was the only creature directly created by Jehovah. It was this created Michael who became the JW Jesus (i.e., a denial of the eternality of Christ). JWs say that "Since actual conception took place, it appears that Jehovah God caused an ovum or egg in Mary's womb to become fertile, accomplishing this by the transfer of the life of his first born son (Michael) from the spirit realm to the earth" (Aid to Bible Understanding, p. 920). "Marvelously, Jehovah transferred the life-force and the personality pattern of his first born heavenly son (Michael) to the womb of Mary. God's own active force, his holy spirit, safeguarded the development of the child in Mary's womb so that what was born was a perfect human" (Reasoning, p. 255).] JWs also add an "a" in John 1:1, making the verse read, "the Word was a god" (which in essence, makes the JWs guilty of the same polytheism of which they accuse Trinitarians).

This is from material directly published by the Watchtower council itself.

And here are more links to Watchtower material which say I am right and you are wrong on what they believe.
Go find these JW volumes, mags and publications referenced here (http://contenderministries.org/jehovahswitnesses/comparison.php). Confirm it all for yourself. I have done so over the years. Your turn.
Read from the JW site (http://www.watchtower.org/e/rq/index.htm?article=article_11.htm) that Christ is not God, but a created being.
The JWs absolutely reject the Trinity. The Holy Spirit is not even a person to them. It is a power/force, not a person.

Read for yourself from the JW site. (http://www.watchtower.org/e/rq/index.htm?article=article_11.htm)

The Holy Spirit is a force, not a person. (http://www.watchtower.org/e/rq/index.htm?article=article_11.htm)

The NWT translation is not the same Bible as we have.

No linquist accepts the NWT 'a god' instead 'is God' as with John 1:1, just to mention one error.

It was not translated by any linquist. It was cobbled together by the Watchtower, mainly one man, Franz, whose son later left the Tower and stated this very clearly. As was found out in court cases, under testimony, Franz could not read or write Greek or Hebrew.

Here is a list of some of the problems. It is obvious all the errors were deliberate and to make the Bible 'compatible' with Tower doctrine. Notice the central theme to the attacks is the deity of Christ.

Consider that when remembering John 4, where John tells us those who deny Christ is God incarnate in the flesh have another Christ, an Anti-Christ, and are not of God.

Read here. (http://www.towerwatch.com/Witnesses/New_World_Translation/nwt_errors.htm)

I remind you that AFTER my posting all of this you were still trying to call me a liar, not knowing what I was talking about still trying to claim the JW do not believe these things.

These answer the issues in all th thread. So focus on actually responding to these facts.

To try to deny what is coming right from the Watchtower in Brooklyn is absurd. They ARE the essence of JWs. There is no other authority in JW but th WTS.

So, here it is altogether. No more accusations, just answer these materials. They do deny you.

Then, we hope your eyes will be opened and you will see what you are claiming is not in line with the real facts. :tiphat:

But no more accusations, declarations or any such thing until you deal with these.

[Sid]

Concerning Christ they immediately launch into the arguments of his being Michael, an angel.

You need to first acknowledge the JW position of Christ being Michael. Then explain their perversion of John 1 and other places to try to make the NWT fit their doctrines.

There is no way to not acknowledge their doctrine since I gave you their materials that clearly state it.


CI:


After many encounters with JWs, I found that they follow a carefully prepared script.

They have all the answers if you also let them ask all the questions.

If you can take control of the lecture [it won't be a dialolgue if they have their way], you will find them lost and confused in quick order.

Be advised: they deny the divinity of Jesus Christ, the Trinity, and believe they are the exclusive community of the saved. They will seek to confuse you with their appearance of Scriptural knowledge, but they marinate in BAD THEOLOGY.


Jehovah's Witnesses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%27s_Witnesses) believe that Jesus and the Archangel Michael are the same being.

They believe that Jesus/Michael was the first being that God created, and assisted with the creation of the universe, the angels, and mankind.

In this prehuman existence he was known as the Word of God.

He later took human form as Jesus and led a life without sin.

After his death on an alleged torture stake, Jesus was resurrected in his previous spiritual form.


Michael (ArchAngel) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Michael_the_Archangel)

[wvpeach1963]

Produce anything from the Jehovah's wittness own teachings sid that proves they believe Jesus is Michael the arch angel? Bring that proof to this thread !

Links describing Michael from wikipedia with no mention of the Jehovah's Wittness believing that as you say don't work as truth , now do they sid?

How about some prove instead of your beliefs. After all if we followed the beliefs of men instead of the biblical teachings of our Lord and Savior Christ we 'd be in real trouble wouldn't we?

[Sid]

How about some prove instead of your beliefs.


Are you on write-only mode?


The Doctrine of the Holy Spirit (http://christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=16055&postcount=32)

[CoreIssue]

Peach, I posted directly form the Watchtower materials on that material you keep promising to get to, but still have not.

Yet, you have time to attack here with accusations of false declarations.

Answer my links and knock off the looking for excuses to attack others.

I DID give you JW materials. Answer them.

I am growing very weary of you looking for excuses to point fingers.

Answer my links and verses, as you promised. No more finger pointing posts.

You HAVE been given the links and materials you claim you have not been given. Proving you either have not read any of them or have have no interest in doing anything but trying to pull the wool over the eyes of others to present false arguments.

The old semantical game playing of not having to own up to something until the proofs are stated as you want them is not going to fly.

You have the proofs. Now deal with them as promised.

[CoreIssue]

Sid, please stop giving her excuses to divert from answering my links.

You are falling into the normal ploy they love. Which is no more effective than quoting the Bible at atheists for the existence of God.

Don't give her any more exuses for avoiding the JW materials I posted.

I have way too much experince with these types. That is why I posted their own materials against them.

Everything you post for any other source is an excuse for her to lash out with the liar and false accusations claims.

Notice she has not given ONE response to my links. Needs time. But is INSTANTLY all over your posts with the hurt innocent and false accusations posts.

We have to make her either respond the the JW materials I used against her or go silent. There is no other way.

[Sid]

http://www.rr-bb.com/images/smilies/pop2.gif

[CoreIssue]

:popcorn2: :popcorn:
Anyone got soda?

[CoreIssue]

Well, Post 34 remains unaswered, thus I take the silence to be Peach's promised answer.

As always, when a cult member is put in a corner and forced to be silent or answer solid challenges, they go silent.

No suprise.

It is sad so many people love a lie over the truth. Foolish, stupid, destructive and senseless. But they do.

[KRISSY]

The question still remains are they christian, well what i've noticed with the ones where I'm from, is that they always wanna help. There was this instance where my aunt was washing and they came they wanted to help her wash as they wanted to speak to her even if her work finishes at night. What is to say about that- bringing GOD's WORD across however possible. I cannot say much about ther religious practices as i've never been to any service that they kep. I cannot however say they are an occultic group or that they are practicing christians? Am still puzzled as to what they do?:snooty:

[CoreIssue]

KRISSY, I have had atheist friends who would help me at the drop of a hat. So that is not an argument in their favor for being Christian.

Do they believe Christ is God incarnate? No. They believe he is Michael the archangel promoted to a status of being a lesser god.

Paul states to believe this is to be non-Christian and anti-Christ.

Do they believe in salvation by grace aloine? No. They believe if you are not a member in good standing of their church, do not do the works they require and so on, you will be anihilated. Not in Hell, but destroyed totally.

The Bible says to place your salvation in your works is to make you your own savior. And that cannot be. Those who believe such are not going to Heaven. They have remained in the pride, never truly trusting Christ or God.

Further, sin nature is never truly taken away. There will be JWs who enter enternity who will slip up later and perish, in their beliefs.

Those are but 2 of the most critical errors they hold to.

They hold to them to the point of having rewritten the Bible, calling it the New World Translation.

And how do they treat their own who see these errors? Disfellowship which means their spouses, children and parents must abandon them. Treat them as if they never exists.

Oh yes, as with the LDS, all sweet and kindness until you join. Then get in line and obey. Period.

They are a totally legalistic and authoritarian organization, not only now but in eternity.

[KRISSY]

Thanks for enlightening me Core, am very observant but never got the chance to really interact with any. They are like in your face if you know what a mean.

'DUH GOOD AN GOOD WILL ALWAYS FALLAW YUH' By the late Louis Benett Coverly. God bless yall.

[CoreIssue]

:tiphat: Always remember, the greatest lies begin with a seed of truth.

Look at Satan with Eve.

[soweroftruth]

ive had many visits over many years by jws, and not at any time had they ever asked me have u heard the good news about jesus ? or did you know that he died was buried and resorected for you to recieve the fee gift of salvation,or any thing that had to do with jesus, i pray for the lost my heart is broken over it

[soweroftruth]

thats right

[CoreIssue]

ive had many visits over many years by jws, and not at any time had they ever asked me have u heard the good news about jesus ? or did you know that he died was buried and resorected for you to recieve the fee gift of salvation,or any thing that had to do with jesus, i pray for the lost my heart is broken over it
Excellent point. The Gospel isn't they main focus.

[soweroftruth]

I dont know alot about the JW , but I am curious, where do they get there info from ? I mean do they read the same bible ? Or did they make up there own.
hello,im hoping thatwhen ever u run into a jw u can with strain yourself from asking to many ?s from them and only use the name jesus before and after u make a statement or a stand . be sure to use the name jesus as offten as u can and u will see the demonded antichrist appear before your eyes.

[a.baker]

:nod: Oh that is so true with so many people. Some get angry just mentioning His name once.

[kay-gee]

I have never met anyone who gets so angry over even the mention of His name.

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

I have never met anyone who gets so angry over even the mention of His name.

all the best...
Wow! That is amazing.

[kay-gee]

Everyone I have come across...say things like "I'm not a religious person" or " I have my own beliefs" or something to this effect. Never had open hostitility. Don't know where you are meeting these people. Must be a pretty low class and tactless crowd.

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Everyone I have come across...say things like "I'm not a religious person" or " I have my own beliefs" or something to this effect. Never had open hostitility. Don't know where you are meeting these people. Must be a pretty low class and tactless crowd.

all the best...
Many atheists and such are feeling empowered to attack Christians. Some are very rich, like Ted Turner.

['67Scofield]

:popcorn2: :popcorn:
Anyone got soda?


http://www.therushforum.com/html/emoticons/trink36.gif

there ya go.
enjoy.

[ljyreewalker]

your right all rebellion is as witchcraft

[ljyreewalker]

:(saddly no they are anti christ

[CoreIssue]

:(saddly no they are anti christ
Very true.

[Jessie]

Everyone I have come across...say things like "I'm not a religious person" or " I have my own beliefs" or something to this effect. Never had open hostitility. Don't know where you are meeting these people. Must be a pretty low class and tactless crowd.

all the best...
Many atheists and such are feeling empowered to attack Christians. Some are very rich, like Ted Turner.

I've often wondered do these people ever think of what happens after death? where they will go, what will happen to THEM?

some of the things turner has said are just outragious.

and he sure cant take all that money and junk he owns with him.

[Abi]

Greetings:

BUILDING A FOUNDATION OF SOBRIETY

A few decades past I was an alcoholic and through AA I gained my sobriety. Most importantly it was the first 3 months of my sobriety that I gained a spiritual foothold, which is extremely important to build a solid foundation of sobriety. This spiritual foothold was achieved by studying the word of God (Bible) with the Jehovah Witnesses.

Since then I have had a special place in my heart for the Jehovah Witnesses because they were there when I needed the spiritual growth at that most critical time in my life.

When I look back, I know in my heart (that special feeling) that it was a spiritual lifesaver given to me by the Holy Spirit.

Praise the LORD for his love.

Abi

[CoreIssue]

Greetings:

BUILDING A FOUNDATION OF SOBRIETY

A few decades past I was an alcoholic and through AA I gained my sobriety. Most importantly it was the first 3 months of my sobriety that I gained a spiritual foothold, which is extremely important to build a solid foundation of sobriety. This spiritual foothold was achieved by studying the word of God (Bible) with the Jehovah Witnesses.

Since then I have had a special place in my heart for the Jehovah Witnesses because they were there when I needed the spiritual growth at that most critical time in my life.

When I look back, I know in my heart (that special feeling) that it was a spiritual lifesaver given to me by the Holy Spirit.

Praise the LORD for his love.

Abi


Well, Mother Teresa gave great comfort to many and encouraged them in the Hinduism and other beliefs.

My point? Comforts of the flesh and salvation are two different issues that do not have to agree.

Glad you became sober in the flesh. Now become sober in the spirit with the Truth. :tiphat:

[soweroftruth]

will abi i must say that the holy spirit dose "not dewll in anyone who refuses the truth of the death,burial and resurrection of jesus of nazereth"our christ". its good not to let drunkess destroy our lives! or a new car ,job,greed,clothes or what ever it is that holds us in its slavery. i have jw's in my family,and they disreguard grace and the "finished work of christ on the cross as the path to life in his presence and recieving this gift,they trust in the works of the flesh, but only to surive armonggen thus having achance to prove they are worthy to live forever "on earth only" by thier continued obidence to live as holy as they can, and one of the paths to living forever is not to be a drunk,smoke ciggertes,pray to jesus,knock on doors ect. in short the only spirit that they profess are demonds of droctine. who is LORD ?

[monilove]

You will also find that once you understand the Grace of God and accept that Jesus was God, He gave His life on the Cross, was buried and resurrected, the Holy Spirit indwells you. Once the Holy Spirit indwells you , you will begin to discern things. One thing I've found is JW's have a spirit about them that is antiChrist. If you're ever in the same room with them you can tell because the Spirit in you senses they are not true believers.They dont even have to open their mouths. I've experienced this several times. My brother and his wife have two coworkers who are JW's. The instant we met their smiles changed and their demeanor almost demonic. Immediately they had to leave. Afterwards, my SIL confirmed they were JW's. Other occasions have occurred where they will begin to talk but as soon as they get out three words they abruptly walk away. I've had them turn into our driveway only to back out without approaching the door. Our God is mighty and His Spirit is awesome. We dont have to be superspiritual just saved...Also you'll find that if they sense you are saved by the Grace of God thru the blood of Jesus (without the shedding of blood there is no redemption), they will avoid you altogether or say a curt hello and keep on going w/out attempting to "minister" to you.

The Cross is nothing to be ashamed of. In fact Paul makes it clear that without Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection, we Gentiles would not have a chance! Paul says he counted his education, his titles in the Jewish world and his labor there as dung. All he preached was Christ and Him crucified. JW's do not use the same Bible. If they did there's no way they could argue Jesus's bodily resurrection. It is that same glorified body Paul says all of creation is yearning for. IA Jesus is a powerful Name and knowing He gave His life for us while we yet sinners makes Him all the more worthy of every praise.....JW's and Muslims are just two non Christian entities who cannot answer a basic question. If your salvation is of works, how many works gets you into Heaven? How many sins keep you out?How much Watchtower material is enough? How many knocks on doors is enough? They spy out our liberties in Christ as the Judaizers did to the Gentiles saved by Christ in Paul's day (Galatia). Seeking to undermine God's grace by instituting law and denying the power of the Blood of Jesus and His deity. Paul said oh foolish Galatians........

[roman8]

[quote=monilove;30419]My brother and his wife have two coworkers who are JW's. The instant we met their smiles changed and their demeanor almost demonic.

I work side by side with a JW , I have never had that feeling about him . When we first began working together I handled the situation very poorly . Him and his wife are lovely people , but my heart aches everyday for them. I pray for another opportunity to talk to him about the Gospel, or someone else to share Gods truth with him.

He was born into the JWs and has known nothing else. One positive thing is , at work I listen to Christian music all day, and now he will put it on in the morning . Its a small thing, but perhaps a seed , only God knows.

[monilove]

Hello Roman8! I can only speak from my own experience and have found most of my interactions with JW's to be consistent. I had a friend in high school whose parents were steeped in that belief system. While her parents were JW's she was never completely engulfed in it and come out of it. She has been ex communicated from her family because of it.
Paul warns us in I Corinthians that yes we are in the world and we can share the gospel but we must take heed lest we fall into their deception as well. Are they terrible people?No? Misled? Absolutely.