The Plain Truth about the Jehovah's Witnesses

[CoreIssue]

The Plain Truth about
the Jehovah's Witnesses (http://www.biblebelievers.com/jmelton/JehovahsWitnesses.html)

The bodily resurrection of Christ is a fundamental Bible doctrine. The salvation of a person's soul rests upon this doctrine, because if Jesus didn't physically rise from the dead AS HE SAID HE WOULD, then we're all lost and going to Hell according to 1 Corinthians 15:12-19 (JW's included).

[Sid]

A short summary of Jehovah's Witness's Teachings:



The Holy Trinity:

Satan is the orginator of this. It is a freakish-looking 3 headed God. An attempt of Satan to keep people from learning the truth of God Jehovah and his son, Christ. Trinity leads to the confusion of the mind.

The Diety of Christ:

God's, son, the word, is a "mighty god" but not Almighty God who is Jehovah. Jesus was first creation of Jehovah . Jesus was not God himself. The fact he was "sent" proves he was not equal with God but less.

The Holy Spirit:

Invisible force of Almighty God that moves his servants to do his will. The Holy Spirit the so called 3rd person of the Trinity is Not a person but God's force that executes God's will.

The Virgin Birth:

Jesus was conceived by a perfect sinless Father God Jehovah. God transferred his son's life into the womb of Mary He was not a spirit-human hybrid but a man and at the same time a spirit person.

Atonement:

Jesus as the glorified High Priest, by presenting in heaven this redemptive price, is in the position to RELIEVE the believing ones of Adam's descendants from the inherited disability under the law. The human life that Jesus Christ laid down must be exactly equal to that life Adam forfeited for all his offspring ..it must be perfect human life, no more no less.

Salvation by Grace:

Immortality is the reward for faithfulness. It does not come at birth. A person could fall away and be judged unfavorably either now or at Armageddon..or during the thousand years of Christ's reign or at the end of the final test into everlasting destruction.

The Resurrection of Christ:

This firstborn from the dead was raised from the grave not a human creature, but a spirit. Jehovah raised him not as human son, but as a mighty immortal spirit..for 40 days after that he Materialized as angels had done before him to show himself alive to the disciples. Jesus sacrificed his perfect manhood and God raised him to deathless life as a glorious spirit creature.

The Return of Christ and Human Government

Jesus returns not again as a human but a glorious spirit person. *Some wrongfully expect a literal fulfillment of the symbolic statements of the Bible...they will never see the Father neither will they see the Son. It does not mean that Christ is on the way or has promised to come but that he is already here.

All images such as the flag, eagle national power, sun, lion, are forbidden. (Exodus commandment of idolatry) No saluting as it is idolatry.

The Existance of Hell and Eternal Punishment:

It is a God dishonoring doctrine of a fiery hell for tormenting concious human souls eternally. The purpose of the doctrine of hell is to scare people away from the Bible and to make them hate God. It is man who assigns the torture of burning hell because they had the misfortune to be born sinners.

Hell and torture can not be true, mainly for 4 reasons.

1. It is wholly unscrip-tural

2. it is unreasonable

3. it is contrary to God's love and

4. it is repugnant to justice.

Man the Soul, His Nature and Destiny:

The fact that man has an immortal soul and differs from the beast is not scrip-tural. Even Jesus was mortal. Jesus did not have an immortal soul: Jesus the human soul died. The HOly scrip-tures alone offer real HOPE for those who do seek Jehovah God and strive to follow his ways.

The Kingdom of Heaven:

Revelations limits heaven to 144,000 , the number part of the Kingdom and will stand on heavenly Mount Zion in the capacity of priests and kings of God they reign a thousand years with Christ Jesus.

The ones who are unrighteous,are resurrected, and to prove their integrity must joyfull submit themselevs to theocratic rule. Those who prove rebellious or who turn unfaithful during the loosing of Satan at the end of Christ's thousand yr reign will be annihilated with Satan the devil.



-- from Walter Martin's Kingdom of the Cults

[CoreIssue]

Jesus was conceived by a perfect sinless Father God Jehovah. God transferred his son's life into the womb of Mary He was not a spirit-human hybrid but a man and at the same time a spirit person.

They use to teach Michael was elevated and became Christ. Thus from angel to a god.

The last group who came here denied that. They now say he became Michael after being chosen.

Mass confusion.

[wvpeach1963]

My husband is a beloved child of God. Believe me I know he is a devout and faithful servant to our Lord.

He is also a Jehovahs Wittness life long.

We met when I attended one of thier services seeking knowledge and the truth.

While I do not belong to any denominations of man , I can tell you that the Jehovahs wittness's are a christian denomination and they love God and Jesus our lord and savior.

Don't where you all get they don't.

[CoreIssue]

Sorry, Peach, but the Bible disagrees with you.

Salvation is by grace by faith in repentence. JWs believe in salvation by works, which makes the person the source of their own salvation.

Romans 4 & 9 plus
Ephesians 2:8-9
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.
state quite clearly their theology is wrong.

Those who work for salvation are not saved. Work stem from salvation, not to achieve salvation.

Their works are to bring more people into these false teachings.

John tells us we must believe Christ is God come in the flesh.

1 John 4

Test the Spirits

1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
To avoid this reality they adhere to a teaching any study of Greek would destroy. That being the altering of John 1:1 to 'a' god instead of God.

Islam recognizes 'Christ.' But rejects him as God in the flesh.

Mormons make the Father the offspring of other gods who worked out his salvation. But they believe in 'Christ.'

Christ comes in many shapes, forms and sizes out there. But John tells you how to determine which is real and which is not. That being God incarnate in the flesh and come to save the world by grace.

[wvpeach1963]

Sorry Core you are showing that you know nothing about what they believe.
I studied with them for years and as I said my husband is a JW. I do not belong to any church denomination of men. I reguarly attend a small Church of Christ near my home and I do attend special events at my husbands church. But I assure you all denominations think they have it all correct and the bible tells me differently .
The Jehovahs Wittness believe our Lord and savior Jesus died for mankinds sins.
They believe the sacrifice of his precious blood is what will give mankind the right to stand before God in judgement one day. Isn't that the definition of a christian?

I don't know where you got that salvation by works idea about them. But I assure you they do not believe that . They work to obey the Lords commandment to go tell the good news of his kingdom to the world . They are obeying that commandment as we all should , not thinking it somehow gets them any closer to God for thier work.

I assure you and attest that Jehovahs Wittness's believe in the one true holy God and his son Jesus Christ as well as the gift of the Holy Spirit.

You are mistaken. With all my christian training and study the only difference I see between them and any other christian denominations is that they believe Jesus in the end will hand the keys to the kingdom back to his father God. That Jesus is doing all this to glorify the father and will have no part for himself of taking any glory away from the father in the end.

Just like the methodists , baptists, catholics, lutherans or any other Christian denomination that accepts Jesus Christ as lord and savior they are our christian brothers and sisters.

Take the catholics who believe they can talk to a human ( priest ) and be forgiven thier sin's.

Or most Baptists faiths who believe that believing on Christ alone is enough to be saved and once saved always saved. Baptism optional.

Or the Church Of Christs who would tell a soldier in Iraq he needed to find a place to be immersed in baptism or he'd be lost if he was killed.

Or the Methodists and thier recent ordination of homosexuals.

Or the Church's Of God who think if your in favor with God you should be speaking in tougues.

I am somewhat a authority on denominations . I have researched them all well, in my life.
You can look at any of them and in thier own denominational doctrines find little quirks we can all discuss and debate as being valid. The Jehovahs Wittness's are no different than any of the other denominations . They have thier own slant on the scriptures.
But they are christians and therefore our brothers and sisters in christ.
I am surprised that christians so easily speak badly about other christians.

But seeing how your a adminstrator at this site I just noticed.

If we're going to speak untruths against other christians maybe this is not the forum for me.

[eahaddix]

While I do not belong to any denominations of man , I can tell you that the Jehovahs wittness's are a christian denomination and they love God and Jesus our lord and savior.

Don't where you all get they don't.

[Post #4] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=15928&postcount=4)

I assure you and attest that Jehovahs Wittness's believe in the one true holy God and his son Jesus Christ as well as the gift of the Holy Spirit.

[Post #6] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=15946&postcount=6)

Just like the methodists , baptists, catholics, lutherans or any other Christian denomination that accepts Jesus Christ as lord and savior they are our christian brothers and sisters.

[Post #6] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=15946&postcount=6)

When you say "Jesus is Lord," what do you mean by the title "Lord"? The Watch Tower Society denies the divinity of Christ Jesus.

The Scriptures therefore show that Jesus is not God Almighty.
Source: "Is Jesus God Almighty?" by The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania @ Watchtower.org (http://www.watchtower.org/e/20050915/diagram_01.htm)

However, this position creates a critical problem. Specifically, how can Christ Jesus be our Savior (Acts 5:31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%205:31;&version=31;), Acts 4:9-12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%204:9-12;&version=31;), etc.), if God (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2316&version=kjv)
(http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0430&version=kjv) himself is our only Savior (Isaiah 43:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2043:11;&version=31;))? As a logical consequence, two possibilities result:
(a) Man can enter heaven by his own efforts, therefore Christ Jesus's substitutional[1] sacrificial[2] death[3]. was pointless.
(b) God the Father did everything for Christ Jesus through Christ Jesus, therefore Christ Jesus did not accomplish anything by himself.

However, Christ Jesus is God incarnate. For instance, Christ Jesus calls himself "the Alpha and the Omega" (Revelation 22:12-13 [NIV] (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2022:12-13;&version=31;) [NWT] (http://www.watchtower.org/bible/index.htm?bk=re;chp=22)), which is God (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2316&version=kjv)
(http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0430&version=kjv) Almighty's title of self-existence (Revelation 1:8 [NIV] (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%201:8;&version=31;) [NWT] (http://www.watchtower.org/bible/index.htm?bk=re;chp=1), Isaiah 44:6 [NIV] (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2044:6;&version=31;) [NWT] (http://www.watchtower.org/bible/index.htm?bk=isa;chp=44)).

Footnotes:
[1] 2 Corinthians 5:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%205:21;&version=31;), 1 Peter 2:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%202:24;&version=31;), Galatians 3:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%203:13;&version=31;), Galatians 2:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%202:20;&version=31;), etc.
[2] Hebrews 10:10-14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%2010:10-14;&version=31;), Hebrews 9:27-28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%209:27-28;&version=31;), 1 Peter 3:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%203:18;&version=31;), 1 John 2:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%202:2;&version=31;), Romans 6:8-10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%206:8-10;&version=31;), etc.
[3] Mark 8:31-32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%208:31-32;&version=31;), 1 Corinthians 15:1-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:1-8;&version=31;), etc., cross ref. Matthew 26:20, 26-29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2026:20,%2026-29;&version=31;), Hebrews 9:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%209:22;&version=31;).

I don't know where you got that salvation by works idea about them. But I assure you they do not believe that .

[Post #6] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=15946&postcount=6)

But seeing how your a adminstrator at this site I just noticed.

If we're going to speak untruths against other christians maybe this is not the forum for me.

[Post #6] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=15946&postcount=6)

Vwpeach1963, you need to be more patient. You are not giving CoreIssue a chance to prove his points.

CoreIssue's claim is correct. For instance, consider these two quotations:

Many people have been told that "believing on Jesus" is a single act and that our faith does not have to be strong enough to prompt obedience. But the Bible disagrees. Jesus did not say that people who begin the Christian course are saved.[...]The Bible likens our Christian course to a race, with salvation being the prize at its end.
Source: "What Must We Do to Be Saved?" by The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania @ Watchtower.org (http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/1996/2/1/article_02.htm)

:shrug: Well, this phraseology comes across as a description of a works-based salvation, no?

We do not earn salvation by doing these things, for no human could ever do enough to merit such an astounding blessing. We are not worthy of this magnificent gift, though, if we fail to demonstrate our love and obedience by doing the things that the Bible says God and Christ want us to do.
Source: "What Must We Do to Be Saved?" by Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania @ Watchtower.org (http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/1996/2/1/article_02.htm)

This is self-contradictory logic. Specifically, the Watch Tower Society is saying that our works do not merit salvation, yet we could lose our salvation by not doing certain works. However, if the process of salvation requires any works at any time, then salvation ceases to be by grace alone (Romans 11:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:6;&version=31;)).

Sorry Core you are showing that you know nothing about what they believe.

[Post #6] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=15946&postcount=6)

I am somewhat a authority on denominations . I have researched them all well, in my life.

[Post #6] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=15946&postcount=6)

With all due respect, I disagree. As demonstrated by the data immediately above, you have not researched the beliefs of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Now, "I am right, you are wrong" rhetoric does not edify anyone. If you believe in the mutual edification of the saints (Romans 14:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2014:19;&version=31;)), then you must be open-minded to correction.

[wvpeach1963]

When you say "Jesus is Lord," what do you mean by the title "Lord"? The Watch Tower Society denies the divinity of Christ Jesus.
Lucky strike I don't know any denomination that is seriously active today that believes man can work himself into heaven. I assure you the Jehovahs Wittness's do not believe that either.

Source: "Is Jesus God Almighty?" by The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania @ Watchtower.org (http://www.watchtower.org/e/20050915/diagram_01.htm)

However, this position creates a critical problem. Specifically, how can Christ Jesus be our Savior (Acts 5:31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%205:31;&version=31;), Acts 4:9-12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%204:9-12;&version=31;), etc.), if God (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2316&version=kjv)
(http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0430&version=kjv) himself is our only Savior (Isaiah 43:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2043:11;&version=31;))? As a logical consequence, two possibilities result:
(a) Man can enter heaven by his own efforts, therefore Christ Jesus's substitutional[1] sacrificial[2] death[3]. was pointless.

The bible calls the Trinity a mystery and we are told that mystery will be revealed to us one day.
God calls Jesus his only begotten son. We are also told that Jesus was with God before the foundations of the world were laid. yet as Jesus rose from his baptism and the dove decended a voice from heaven was heard by all that said. " This is my son with whom I am well pleased."
So its apparent that Jesus and God are one and yet seperate isn't it? Thats all the Jehovah Wittness's believe .

(b) God the Father did everything for Christ Jesus through Christ Jesus, therefore Christ Jesus did not accomplish anything by himself.

However, Christ Jesus is God incarnate. For instance, Christ Jesus calls himself "the Alpha and the Omega" (Revelation 22:12-13 [NIV] (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2022:12-13;&version=31;) [NWT] (http://www.watchtower.org/bible/index.htm?bk=re;chp=22)), which is God (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2316&version=kjv)
(http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0430&version=kjv) Almighty's title of self-existence (Revelation 1:8 [NIV] (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%201:8;&version=31;) [NWT] (http://www.watchtower.org/bible/index.htm?bk=re;chp=1), Isaiah 44:6 [NIV] (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2044:6;&version=31;) [NWT] (http://www.watchtower.org/bible/index.htm?bk=isa;chp=44)).

Footnotes:
[1] 2 Corinthians 5:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%205:21;&version=31;), 1 Peter 2:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%202:24;&version=31;), Galatians 3:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%203:13;&version=31;), Galatians 2:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%202:20;&version=31;), etc.
[2] Hebrews 10:10-14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%2010:10-14;&version=31;), Hebrews 9:27-28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%209:27-28;&version=31;), 1 Peter 3:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%203:18;&version=31;), 1 John 2:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%202:2;&version=31;), Romans 6:8-10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%206:8-10;&version=31;), etc.
[3] Mark 8:31-32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%208:31-32;&version=31;), 1 Corinthians 15:1-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:1-8;&version=31;), etc., cross ref. Matthew 26:20, 26-29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2026:20,%2026-29;&version=31;), Hebrews 9:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%209:22;&version=31;).



Core Issues claims are at best his mistaken attempt to classify a denomination with out knowing the facts. At worst they are untruths and gossip being spread about our fellow christian brothers and sisters. Sorry to have to break that news to you. Speaking ill of any denomination as I stated above is not what we christians should be doing in a world ruled by Satan. I assure you that christians from all man's denominations including catholics, baptists , Jehovah's Wittness's and any others you can think of will join us all one day in our priase and worship of God when the system we now live under ends.

Vwpeach1963, you need to be more patient. You are not giving CoreIssue a chance to prove his points.

CoreIssue's claim is correct. For instance, consider these two quotations:


Source: "What Must We Do to Be Saved?" by The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania @ Watchtower.org (http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/1996/2/1/article_02.htm)

:shrug: Well, this phraseology comes across as a description of a works-based salvation, no?

No ? It doesn't Read the tract before you make that decision lucky strike. I assure you nothing about work's is mentioned by the Jehovahs Wittness's when salvation is discussed. I imagine you might find that info on thier web site so here it is.

http://watchtower.org/bible/index.htm (http://watchtower.org/bible/index.htm)


Source: "What Must We Do to Be Saved?" by Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania @ Watchtower.org (http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/1996/2/1/article_02.htm)

This is self-contradictory logic. Specifically, the Watch Tower Society is saying that our works do not merit salvation, yet we could lose our salvation by not doing certain works. However, if the process of salvation requires any works at any time, then salvation ceases to be by grace alone (Romans 11:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:6;&version=31;)).



I Totally agree as christian 's we must be open to correction for the edification of the church and God. Certainly we should be open to being made aware that we are spreading gossip and untruths about another christian denomination.
Just as I would defend the catholics if somebody called them a cult . or the baptist lutherans you name it. They all have thier slant they believe on the scriptures. But they all believe Jesus Christ who is part of the God head was made manifest in the flesh and that his death and sacred blood paid the penalty for mankinds sin so that we might one day be worthy to stand before God in judgement.

So lucky strike I am lovingly correcting you when I tell you not to spread untruths about your christian brothers and sisters no matter the denomination, one of which happens to be the Jehovah's Wittness's

With all due respect, I disagree. As demonstrated by the data immediately above, you have not researched the beliefs of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Now, "I am right, you are wrong" rhetoric does not edify anyone. If you believe in the mutual edification of the saints (Romans 14:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2014:19;&version=31;)), then you must be open-minded to correction.

I believe in God and Jesus Christ our Lord and savior . I believe that in a world ruled by Satan christians can ill afford to act as the saduceees and pharasees did and fight about doctrinal beliefs. I certainly believe that calling a denomination of our christian brothers and sisters a cult is working against christians as a whole . Paul chastised the church for thier divisions that amounted to beliefs handed down from the traditions of thier fathers.
he made it clear our only goal is to preach the kingdom of Jesus to all the world.

Jesus said he knows his sheep and his sheep know his voice. He also said that he knew he was coming to bring division to every household. That because of him , many would war.
But I assure you it will be counted as sin to speak ill about our fellow christians because it works against the good news of Jesus.
But hey keep it up and see, one day God will set the matter straight and I assure you , you'll find yourself in the company of christians from many denominations including the JW's when evil is finally ended and we will all praise God for the way he ordered and numbered the things of the world.

[Sid]

I believe that in a world ruled by Satan christians can ill afford to act as the saduceees and pharasees did and fight about doctrinal beliefs.


The Muslims look at Jesus and see a prophet and teacher.

The Mormons look at Jesus and see Lucifer's brother.

The JWs look at Jesus and see Michael the Archangel.


Where does heresy end and Christianity begin?

[CoreIssue]

Sorry Core you are showing that you know nothing about what they believe.

Wrong. I have an aunt and uncle who have been JW's longer than you have been alive. And have known others.

Plus, I have had many discussions with JWs elders and have studied theology, JWs include for 45 years.
I studied with them for years and as I said my husband is a JW.
Then you know they reject the deity of Christ.

I also posted what John said about those who reject his diety not being Christian. Up to you on whether you choose to follow the 'revelation' of the Watchtower and your personal feelings over what the Bible states quite clearly.
I do not belong to any church denomination of men.
Niether do I.

Paul tells us such divisions are wrong.
I reguarly attend a small Church of Christ
Which is a denomination and which has doctrinal problems of its own. Such as water baptism being required for salvation, thus negating grace. Or Conditional Salvation, making ones own works their salvation.

No. Your church has problems and actually shares some errors in common with the JWs.
near my home and I do attend special events at my husbands church.
They don't have churches. They have Halls.
But I assure you all denominations think they have it all correct and the bible tells me differently .
Again, I am not denominational. As does yours.
The Jehovahs Wittness believe our Lord and savior Jesus died for mankinds sins.
But reject his diety and reject salvation by grace alone.
They believe the sacrifice of his precious blood is what will give mankind the right to stand before God in judgement one day. Isn't that the definition of a christian?
NO! It is not!

Saints will not be judged and will not stand before the White Throne. They are in the First Resurrection, which is rewards, not judgment of works.

The Second Resurrection is before the White Throne. It is for the damned. Works are judged. But for punishment.

God judges no ones works as regards salvation. The blood is given by those who repent by faith through grace. All sins, past, present and future are washed away, instantly. Never to be remembered. Dead to the Law.

Church of Christ and JWs stay under the Law. Both believe one constantly falls out of salvation with every sin. Then reenters salvation by repenting and doing works again. Christ is nailed to the Cross over and over.

Romans tells us that those who repented, in freewill, are predestined to glorification. Not maybe, but are. And that our salvation is in God's hands, not ours. It can never be removed.

Many people know all about Christ' blood sacrfice. Know it is the source of cleansing. But are NOT saved because they never repent.

Knowledge does not equal salvation. Repentence by faith in the grace of Chist is the only way.

Thinking God allows us the works to save ourselves is grace is a false doctrine. Grace means gift, given without being earned.

I posted the verses that declare this. You are not paying attention to what they say. You are bringing works into salvation.

And standing before the Christ is judgment, as you are showing it, comes from JW doctrine. Their nice picture of Christ and Russell standing above all the peoples, with Russell, not Christ, sorting out who goes to Heaven, who lives on the earth forever and who is anhiliated.

Also, in JWs, even in eternity, one can enter anhiliation by failing to keep up the good works. Or be cast out of the Heavenly 144,000.

There is nothing in your words, here, about being born-again. It is all about works, now, judged later, as to being adequate for salvation.

So, you are very wrong. I know more about JW, Mormon and other such beliefs than many of their own know.
I don't know where you got that salvation by works idea about them. But I assure you they do not believe that . They work to obey the Lords commandment to go tell the good news of his kingdom to the world . They are obeying that commandment as we all should , not thinking it somehow gets them any closer to God for thier work.

I got it from them. And their own materials.

A note here is that their teachings are evolving. They have changed some things from what they taught 40 years ago. As in Michael became Christ and thus a god. Now, it is more Christ was created, incarnated as a god and then was name Michael.

But back on salvation. Read from the Watchtower site itself (Note: You immediately see one of their NWT rewrites of the Bible to conform to their doctrine).

What Must We Do to Be SAVED?
http://www.watchtower.org/images/19960201/rule.gif

A MAN once asked Jesus: "Lord, are those who are being saved few?" How did Jesus reply? Did he say: 'Just accept me as your Lord and Savior, and you will be saved'? No! Jesus said: "Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able."—Luke 13:23, 24 (javascript:showCitedScripture('lu','13','23-24');).
Full Page (http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/1996/2/1/article_02.htm)

Works. This is a declaraton of works.

They use to say it more openly. But now they are trying to play semantical games around the issue.

As you read on you see attempts to deny it is works but anyone who can read sees it is saying works are key part of salvation.

I assure you and attest that Jehovahs Wittness's believe in the one true holy God and his son Jesus Christ as well as the gift of the Holy Spirit.
My, my, what careful wording.

Nothing about denying the deity of Christ.

Nothing about the Holy Spirit being a force/power in JW, not a person.
You are mistaken. With all my christian training and study the only difference I see between them and any other christian denominations is that they believe Jesus in the end will hand the keys to the kingdom back to his father God. That Jesus is doing all this to glorify the father and will have no part for himself of taking any glory away from the father in the end.

How can you say that and at the same time claim to know what they teach?

They deny he is God incarnate. Deny the Holy Spirit is a person. Deny salvation by grace alone. Deny a literal Hell.

And yet here you are acknowledging none of that.
Just like the methodists , baptists, catholics, lutherans or any other Christian denomination that accepts Jesus Christ as lord and savior they are our christian brothers and sisters.
No. They do not acknowledge Christ as Lord, in the Biblical terms meaning God. He is not
God to them.

They have another God, Christ, Father, Holy Spirit, salvation and so forth.
Take the catholics who believe they can talk to a human ( priest ) and be forgiven thier sin's.
That is false doctrine as well. And also is salvation by works.

Anyone Catholics who is working for their salvation is going to Hell.
Or most Baptists faiths who believe that believing on Christ alone is enough to be saved and once saved always saved. Baptism optional.
I am not Baptist. But that IS what the Bible teaches.

Church of Christ and JWs both teach works and Conditional Salvation. Non-Biblical.
Or the Church Of Christs who would tell a soldier in Iraq he needed to find a place to be immersed in baptism or he'd be lost if he was killed.
False doctrine.
Or the Methodists and thier recent ordination of homosexuals.
Disobedient to God.

Also is a itching ear denomination. Many do not believe in Hell and reject a lot of other Biblical teachings.

Calling oneself Christian does not make it so.

And you using the false doctrines of others does not make JWs Christian.
Or the Church's Of God who think if your in favor with God you should be speaking in tougues.
Bad doctrine. But at least the accept Christ as God incarnate and salvation totally by grace.
I am somewhat a authority on denominations . I have researched them all well, in my life.
You can look at any of them and in thier own denominational doctrines find little quirks we can all discuss and debate as being valid. The Jehovahs Wittness's are no different than any of the other denominations . They have thier own slant on the scriptures.
But they are christians and therefore our brothers and sisters in christ.
I am surprised that christians so easily speak badly about other christians.


There is a big distinction between false doctrine on Christ and salvation and bad doctrines with those who have it right on Christ and salvation.

Error is error. But some error will land you in Hell.

No excuse for getting it wrong on Christ and salvation. None.
But seeing how your a adminstrator at this site I just noticed.

For full disclosure, I am the Founder and Owner of this Web Site.
If we're going to speak untruths against other christians maybe this is not the forum for me.
I have spoken no untruths. And you have offered nothing from the Bible to disprove me. Just excuses and semantical arguments intended to make error acceptable.

Stay and discuss. But don't expect PC blind eyes to serious doctrinal problems.

[eahaddix]

So its apparent that Jesus and God are one and yet seperate isn't it? Thats all the Jehovah Wittness's believe .

[Post #8] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=15972&postcount=8)

No. You did not address the fact that the Jehovah's Witnesses reject the divinity of Christ Jesus (ref. Post #7 (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=15954&postcount=7)). Please address this point.

Now, the Jehovah's Witnesses also reject the concept of the Trinity.

IT IS said that some Bible texts offer proof in support of the Trinity. However, when reading such texts, we should keep in mind that the Biblical and historical evidence does not support the Trinity.
Source: "What About Trinity 'Proof Texts'?" by The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania @ WatchTower.org (http://www.watchtower.org/e/ti/article_08.htm)

No, the holy spirit is not a person and it is not part of a Trinity. The holy spirit is God's active force that he uses to accomplish his will. It is not equal to God but is always at his disposition and subordinate to him.
Source: "The Holy Spirit--God's Active Force," by The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania @ WatchTower.org (http://www.watchtower.org/library/ti/article_07.htm)

The Scriptures therefore show that Jesus is not God Almighty.
Source: "Is Jesus God Almighty?" by The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania @ WatchTower.org (http://www.watchtower.org/e/20050915/diagram_01.htm)

However, any denial of the Trinity necessitates that Christ Jesus cannot be God incarnate ontologically. Instead, two possible logical conclusions result:
(a) Christ Jesus, or the Son, is a lifeless, abstract manifestation of God.
(b) Christ Jesus, or the Son, is a man inhabited by God.
Hence, by denying God the Son, one also denies God the Father (1 John 2:22-23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%202:22-23;&version=31;), 1 John 5:10-12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%205:10-12;&version=31;)).

But they all believe Jesus Christ who is part of the God head was made manifest in the flesh[...]

[Post #8] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=15972&postcount=8)

I disagree. For example, how do you explain the New World Translation's rendering of John 1:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:1;&version=31;)?

John 1:1 [NWT] (http://www.watchtower.org/bible/index.htm?bk=joh;chp=1)
1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.

:scratch: Christ Jesus is "a god" who was with God?

Lucky strike I don't know any denomination that is seriously active today that believes man can work himself into heaven. I assure you the Jehovahs Wittness's do not believe that either.

[Post #8] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=15972&postcount=8)

No ? It doesn't Read the tract before you make that decision lucky strike. I assure you nothing about work's is mentioned by the Jehovahs Wittness's when salvation is discussed. I imagine you might find that info on thier web site so here it is.

http://watchtower.org/bible/index.htm

[Post #8] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=15972&postcount=8)

Really? Please re-read the following statements:

Many people have been told that "believing on Jesus" is a single act and that our faith does not have to be strong enough to prompt obedience. But the Bible disagrees. Jesus did not say that people who begin the Christian course are saved.[...]The Bible likens our Christian course to a race, with salvation being the prize at its end.
Source: "What Must We Do to Be Saved?" by The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania @ WatchTower.org (http://www.watchtower.org/e/20050915/diagram_01.htm)

We do not earn salvation by doing these things, for no human could ever do enough to merit such an astounding blessing. We are not worthy of this magnificent gift, though, if we fail to demonstrate our love and obedience by doing the things that the Bible says God and Christ want us to do.
Source: "What Must We Do to Be Saved?" by The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania @ WatchTower.org (http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/1996/2/1/article_02.htm)

:shrug: Now, how do these statements not communicate a works-based salvation?

Core Issues claims are at best his mistaken attempt to classify a denomination with out knowing the facts. At worst they are untruths and gossip being spread about our fellow christian brothers and sisters. Sorry to have to break that news to you.

[Post #8] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=15972&postcount=8)

So lucky strike I am lovingly correcting you when I tell you not to spread untruths about your christian brothers and sisters no matter the denomination, one of which happens to be the Jehovah's Wittness's

[Post #8] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=15972&postcount=8)

:shrug: What correction? To the contrary, you are simply "wisking away" our objections with "because I said so" declarations. As a result, a serious intellectual discussion between us will be impossible.

With all due respect, let me be blunt. You are "in denial" because you care about your husband. I can understand this. However, you will not help your husband by ignoring undesirable objections to his beliefs.

I will leave your remaining replies to CoreIssue.

[wvpeach1963]

Sid
I have provided the Jehovahs Wittness bible web site to you.

I trust you will find something in the Jehovah's Wittness web site suporting the lie you are telling about them .

I know that they believe Jesus is the son of God who was sacrificed for mankinds sin.

I will be more than happy to apologize to the borad and you when you bring proof from thier own web site that your correct.

Note: Thier web site, not some site or book that is telling lies about them too.

After all for it to be true it would have to come from thier litrature or mouth's

The Muslims look at Jesus and see a prophet and teacher.

The Mormons look at Jesus and see Lucifer's brother.

The JWs look at Jesus and see Michael the Archangel.


Where does heresy end and Christianity begin?

[CoreIssue]

Peach, I gave you links to JW materials and proofs from the JW site itself.

Sid did not lie. You are not being honest or thorough here in your postings.

Respond to those links and materials and stop casually calling people liars or uneducated until you do so.

[wvpeach1963]

Lucky strike The Jehovah's Wittness's do not reject the divinity of Christ, They understand that God can make his son Jesus whatever he wants him to be . God is all powerful to do as he wish's certainly conserning his son Jesus. God created Jesus the son . Just as he did with the Holy Spirit. Notice the word " Spirit" As in God's spirit we are blessed to have communion with. But Jesus makes it clear in the bible all worship should be directed at God the father.
John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away and come again unto you. If you loved me you would rejoice. For I said I go unto the father, for my father is greater than I.

Jesus also explained that there were some things unknown to himself and the angel's that only God the father could know.

Mark 13 :32 But of that day and that hour, knoweth not man, not the angels which are in heaven; neither the son , but the father.

Acts2:32 confirms that God resurrected his son Christ to sit on his throne on his right hand side till he makes his foes Christ's foot stool.

Acts 2: 32 -36
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having recieved of the father the promise of the Holy Ghost , he has shed forth this which ye now see and hear.
For David is not ascended into the heavens :but he saith himself, The Lord saith to my Lord , sit thou on my right hand,
until I make thy foes they footstool.
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God hath made that same Jesus whom ye have crusified,both Lord and Christ.

Notice that God has made Jesus Lord and Christ.

Lucky strike are you saying that you have somehow missed all the places in the New Testament that Jesus exalted his father above himself?

Because if you need it , I'd be happy to go on and on with scriptures where Jesus raises Father God above himself the son?

No. You did not address the fact that the Jehovah's Witnesses reject the divinity of Christ Jesus (ref. Post #7 (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=15954&postcount=7)). Please address this point.


They do not reject the trinity. They just understand correctly that God is still God .
Jesus is Gods son and while they are one in thought and spirit .
The father is always and still above the son . The holy spirit being radiated from God himself does not exsit on its own, but is part of God.
My bible clearly makes this distinction to me as well.
Now, the Jehovah's Witnesses also reject the concept of the Trinity.

What texts do you have a biblical problem with , maybe I can help with a answer then?
Source: "What About Trinity 'Proof Texts'?" by The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania @ WatchTower.org (http://www.watchtower.org/e/ti/article_08.htm)

The Holy Spirit is Gods spirit. Also called the Holy Ghost in the bible.
Is there something about that you don't understand ?
Spirits and ghost's have no bodily form, they imminate from a being with a bodily form. We are made in Gods image. At least in bodily form.
The Holy spirit comes as a spirit or ghost without bodily form.

Or as core put forth are you thinking the Holy Spirit is a person ?
I have asked core to give verse and chapter to tell me where he gets that impression and he's not done so yet.
I suspect he never will, as the Holy Sprit imminates from the one true God. We are blessed to recieve of the spirit of God.
John the Baptist let us know just how much when he said even the angels desire to recieve what man has recieved. The Holy Spirit ( or Ghost) of God.
We are also told in the bible that Gods holy spirit is a active force in the lifes of his children on earth. Don't you believe that?
Source: "The Holy Spirit--God's Active Force," by The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania @ WatchTower.org (http://www.watchtower.org/library/ti/article_07.htm)

Please see my first response to you in this post. I have explained that Jesus himself makes a distintion between himself and Father God.
I will be happy to give more biblical examples if the above don't satisfy your quest in this area. The bible is full of the son telling us that only the Father is good and to be worshiped. Only the father is all knowing.
Source: "Is Jesus God Almighty?" by The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania @ WatchTower.org (http://www.watchtower.org/e/20050915/diagram_01.htm)


First John 2:22-23 makes the distintion clearly that there is a father and a son and that was understood by the early church after Jesus's crusifixtion. It also illustrates that Christ the son and God the father work in perfect union of thought and spirit together. To deny one is to deny the other. Continue to verse 24 of this same passage you sited.
Just so there is no mistaking the message for all that read this, I'll type the scriptures out for you.

First John 2: 22-24 from the King James Version
Verse 22- Who is the liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is a antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Verse 23- Who soever denieth the Son , the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the SON hath the Father also.

Verse 24- Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning, if that which ye have heard from the beginning, shall remain in you , ye shall continue in the Son , and in the Father .

Note: Lucky strike I have added underlines at each father and son for your benefit.
Also take note that the tranlation of the KJV capitalizes all the father and sons in the passages you sited . That is done because the original greek and hebrew scripture used the symbols meaning that the Father and the Son were names or formal titles therefore to be capitalized as we do names in our English language.

note : first John - verse 1
My little children these things I write unto you, that ye sin not. We have a advocate with the father , Jesus Christ the righteous.

Jesus advocates on our behalf with the father. If Jesus was the final say we'd need no advocate. Jesus would make the decision himself. No need to check with his father on our behalf.

However, any denial of the Trinity necessitates that Christ Jesus cannot be God incarnate ontologically. Instead, two possible logical conclusions result:
(a) Christ Jesus, or the Son, is a lifeless, abstract manifestation of God.
(b) Christ Jesus, or the Son, is a man inhabited by God.
Hence, by denying God the Son, one also denies God the Father (1 John 2:22-23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%202:22-23;&version=31;), 1 John 5:10-12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%205:10-12;&version=31;)).

You site first John 5 10 -12

So again so there can no mistakes about the meaning of those scriptures for any that would read this post , I will type the scriptures out for you from the KJV of the bible.

1st John 5: 10-12
Verse 10- He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar: because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

verse 11- And this is the record, that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

verse 12- He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Continue on to verse 13 of the same passages you sited luckystrike.

Verse 13 - These things have I written unto you who believe on the name of the Son of God : that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Again above I have underlined all the sons and Gods for you from the scripture you sited. Again notice that son is capitalized because the original Greek and Hebrew scriptures gave the symbol at each of those that they were formal names and therefore to be capitalized in our English language. You'll find instances in the bible where son is not capitalized because the symbol was not given that was a formal name.

I disagree. For example, how do you explain the New World Translation's rendering of John 1:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:1;&version=31;)?

John 1:1 [NWT] (http://www.watchtower.org/bible/index.htm?bk=joh;chp=1)
1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.

It's apparent to me , by everything Jesus said about his father God that God is the one true God . That distinction has to be made somehow as Jesus himself said he was not above God his father.
:scratch: Christ Jesus is "a god" who was with God?





Really? Please re-read the following statements:


Source: "What Must We Do to Be Saved?" by The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania @ WatchTower.org (http://www.watchtower.org/e/20050915/diagram_01.htm)


Source: "What Must We Do to Be Saved?" by The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania @ WatchTower.org (http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/1996/2/1/article_02.htm)

:shrug: Now, how do these statements not communicate a works-based salvation?





:shrug: What correction? To the contrary, you are simply "wisking away" our objections with "because I said so" declarations. As a result, a serious intellectual discussion between us will be impossible.

With all due respect, let me be blunt. You are "in denial" because you care about your husband. I can understand this. However, you will not help your husband by ignoring undesirable objections to his beliefs.

I will leave your remaining replies to CoreIssue.

[wvpeach1963]

Note Lucky strike I answered you in green above.

As the post is getting very lengthy and I have company coming soon I will need to take a break for a few hours to prepare a meal for them.

I promise to come back and finish answering the rest of your post tonight or tommorrow God willing.

Paula

[wvpeach1963]

Ah as I looked at your post for what is left unaswered by me yet luckystrike.

One thing needs to be made very clear before I go off to cook my company dinner.
You seem to think I'm making excuses for my husband. I tell you that is not true.
I am telling Core Issue that he has filled his site with untruths about his fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. Slandering a fellow christian is not in anybody's best interest. So I brought this to Core's attention in love , so that he might research the matter himself, lest he be found guilty of this sin and held accountable by God.

Its true as a young woman I put the love of my human family before God. After all as a human its hard to love something you can;t wrap your arms around or see with your eyes is it not? However God taught me well that we are to love him above all things, including our spouses , our children or any human. Once we learn to do that , Love God above all others everything else in our lives will fall into place including the love we have for our families. Its a simple fact that our families will never be at peace till we learn to put the love of God above all things and people.

God has taught me that like Job even if I lost all my human family , I should not dispair as I will never loose my God.
I assure you I love God before all others, and I place the fate of my loved ones in Gods hands. I am promised only one thing in the bible about my loved ones, that my prayers as a beloved child and follower of God will ensure he doesn't forget my human family.
Should they be lost he will give them every chance to repent because of my ( his loyal child who love's him above all) prayers .

However we have free will and should they choose to sin against God and he destroys them I am also told he will wipe away my tears and take away my pain. As with everything God says I stand on that word .

I assure you this child of God would never allow family to come between or before God.
But I'm lucky God painfully taught me that lesson long ago.
All my love , loyalty, and worship belong's to God . Its just that simple

[CoreIssue]

Warning One.
You are preaching. You are a Jehovah's Witness, I believe. You are towing and spouting the same rhetoric thier missionaries do when the visit homes.

Respond to the materials presented to you from the JW site and the Bible directly. Quote and respond point for point.

This is a discussion and debate board. Not a platform for you to preach and tell people who have responded and given you materials that they are lying and have not answered question to just allow you to preach some more.

Respond to the refutations, Bible and JWs materials, given you.

Do not continue preaching.

This is an old stunt and trick. Do not continue trying to use it.

[wvpeach1963]

Core issue are you asking me to leave your forum?

I told you before its up to you ask and I will leave.

I clearly responded to luckystrikes post clearly and completely above using the bible as my source.

There is no stunt and no trick here.

I am telling you plain bible truth as shown above. What problem do you have with the biblical truth?

I say again its your choice , if you want me to leave say so. It appears you do but have not gathered to courage to say it plainly yet.

Its simple , do you want me to leave? You speak the words.

Its your choice,

Your words in your warning are also untrue as I clearly used the bible in my response to luckystrike even if you don't like that.

[wvpeach1963]

Lucky strike

I left a small portion of your post unanswered above.

My company has decided to spend the night and it would be rude of me to spend the night with my nose stuck in the bible and typing on the computer.

So God willing I will finish later when I don't have company.

Your sister in Christ

Paula

[CoreIssue]

Peach, you are dodging refutations posted and continue to preach without addressing a single verse or link posted against your position.

You making a declaration is not an answer. It is an unsubstantiated declaration. Your opinion.

I have posted verses refuting you. You dodged them. I have posted links to WTS sources proving what you say we are lying about. You have yet to mention one or reply to it.

Calling it lies and such are not answers. That is preaching.

All are welcome to discuss and debate here. You are not debating. You are throwing declarations and accusations without directly addressing any refutation.

That is neither discussion or debate.

Please directly address the verses and links posted to you. The verses and links directly. Not with opinions or cliches, as you have been doing.

No. I am not asking you to leave or any such thing because you are refuting Sid, me or anyone else. I am telling you it is required you actually discuss and reply to refutations of your claims.

Just calling us liars and lacking in knowledge are cliches and sound bites. Not answers.

[wvpeach1963]

We have a timing issue here. Luckystrike asked or presented valid doctrinal questions and evidences in the post above. I have been checking both threads and asking for some research on anybody's part that maintains the JW's are a cult. That research until luckystrikes post was lacking on the part of the accusers .

Core I was awaiting your answers on the other thread as I worked on Luckystrikes post above. I came back to both threads and looked for your rebuttal for a day .
You had not posted one on the other thread , but I found the above of lucky strikes , so I began to answer it.

Now if you as site owner go look at the post times I posted my answer above just minutes before you posted a long post to me on the other thread.
Which by the way I have not had time yet to give due diligence or read properly. I fully intend to do that ASAP. God willing. ASAP being tonight or tommorrow as I have company today.

Core how in any way am I dodging anything? I have answered luckystrikes very thoughtful post with a thoughtful prayed about post of my own above.

Posts containing no facts , but instead only hear say and gossip are treated as such by myself. I'm not singling anybody out in saying that. Lucky strike presented a post with links and research deserving of a answer.

I am simply saying that luckystrike supplied links and asked question regarding biblical topics. Bravo lucky strike!!
I in turn am answering lucky strike with biblical materials.

At this point in the debate luckystrike and I can communicate further together on
meanings of God's holy word. Lucky strike and I may not agree perfectly , but we can both learn from factual open debate about God's holy word. After all that is what study is all about, I am always eager to study .

I believe my above post to lucky strike directly address's each topic lucky posted.
Till time constraints drew me away yesterday. I believe the only topics he addressed I havn't answered are his links to what he profess's points to them believing they are saved by works. I still have company and will not be able to spend much time on line this morning, but it was my thinking I could look at what he provided on the subject.

I am in no way preaching, that's your opinion. I am debating biblical principles and indeed the Word Of God as set forth in the bible.

Preaching is not my job. Telling the truth about God's holy word is the job of all christians he calls to do so,and I am one of those he has called.

Have you even read my post above core?
A good starting point might be to have a three way discussion now about the points lucky strike made and then mine in rebuttal.

For clarification
I am not a Jehovah's Wittness. Nor do I belong to any denomination.

I attend several church's of several denominations reguarly. I have friends in most denominations as I'm a student of denominations for most of my life. My study of denominations has taught me one thing for sure they all have a slant they believe is correct about the scriptures,
and that good christians and members of the bride of Christ attend every sort of church service you can imagine.

Knowing that to be truth beyond doubt that christian's attend buildings with all sorts of names on them, I only seek to remind us all that as christians the fighting amongst ourselves in counterproductive to the message of Christ.
Sincerely
Paula







Peach, you are dodging refutations posted and continue to preach without addressing a single verse or link posted against your position.

You making a declaration is not an answer. It is an unsubstantiated declaration. Your opinion.

I have posted verses refuting you. You dodged them. I have posted links to WTS sources proving what you say we are lying about. You have yet to mention one or reply to it.

Calling it lies and such are not answers. That is preaching.

All are welcome to discuss and debate here. You are not debating. You are throwing declarations and accusations without directly addressing any refutation.

That is neither discussion or debate.

Please directly address the verses and links posted to you. The verses and links directly. Not with opinions or cliches, as you have been doing.

No. I am not asking you to leave or any such thing because you are refuting Sid, me or anyone else. I am telling you it is required you actually discuss and reply to refutations of your claims.

Just calling us liars and lacking in knowledge are cliches and sound bites. Not answers.

[CoreIssue]

Peach, there is a simple way to resolve this.

The other thread contains links and more to the Watchtower, itself, site and documents, dealing with all of these issues.

Answer there and let this thread be silent, since the facts are posted there you are arguing about here.

Anyone with any knowledge knows about the infamous, misleading JW pamphlets and dodgings of the JWs who knock on one's door.

That is why I went to their serious study materials instead of the public image and semantical game playing they do when trying to bring others into the fold.

Your time is limted? Then devote it there, when it will also answer the issues here.

Lucky told you he was leaving these other things to me. So, abide by what Lucky said and answer there.

If you have all this time to post these long posts here and dig up and post pamphlets, you have time to just put your energies into proper answers there.

[wvpeach1963]

Lucky Strike,

The first link you provided goes back to a explanation of the validation of Christ.
Not what I read you meant it to be, unless with all this posting among each others posts it may have been messed up.

The second link you provided is a excellent work on salvation and christian behavior.
Have you read that second link you provided completely?

If you do so you will see that they acknowledge biblical truth in that work.
Call upon the name of Christ to be saved and you will be saved, then they go on to chastise those who are saved that is not the end of the story. That as a saved follower of Christ we must work to put as much sinful behavior behind us as possible. Thats very biblical teaching.
Most of the works of the apostles after Jesus assended to the Father was about exactly that.
That as christian's we must continue to work against the nature of our own flesh and human minds. That as christians we cannot take salvation and say, oh now the matter is settled , I need not evolve and change for the Glory of Christ. As christians its our duty to model as much Christlike behavior as we can. And Jesus told us to go tell the good news of his kingdom to the whole world. That most certainly involve's work in a world ruled by Satan. Further down in this post I will explain why works actually matter little to them at all, as they believe they are being obiedient to Christ's commands. And that he did tell his followers to work to spread the good news of his coming Kingdom to the world.

Thats what I read in the second passage about works you provided.
If you care to go verse by verse chapter by chapter in a discussion of that link I will find it a valid way to use my time in the future.

But perhaps a consise explanation of what they believe will happen after the second coming of Christ is in order to help bring the link you are questioning into prospective.

Note : I will do my best to explain as one who doesn't completly agree with
this concept, one of thier elders I am sure would have things to add to my explanation.
My own studies show me most of what they believe is solidly biblical, its some details I am still unsure I agree with. But never the less the important parts are correct.

They believe that during the 1000 year reign of Jesus on the earth, Most who have ever lived will be ressurected upon the earth to live under and be taught by Jesus about Gods ways and commands. Most being a lot of people , among the people that have ever walked this earth as part of mankind. People from all creeds colors and denominational leanings in Christ. So you see they are not one of the faiths that believe only the Jehovah's Wittness's will be saved , they believe people from all denominations will be ressurected to be taught by Jesus during the 1000 year reign on earth.

I highlighted the word most above , because they believe that will mean overwhelmingly Most people God ever decreed to be born. Except a much smaller number that God knows are evil among men and destroys them without this second chance they believe all of mankind will recieve.

So you see the whole premise of works you are attributing to them is completely wrong. Because they believe no matter your works you'll have a chance to learn from the reign of Jesus directly . A second chance if you will. ( thats a simplified statement about the topic)

They believe that after the reign of Jesus on the earth for a 1000 years that satan will be loosed for a short time to decieve the people again and the bible says the number that fall away to his deception will be countless as the sands of the seas.

Those people after having been given every chance to be taught by the master himself , will be destroyed and thier names remembered no more among the people of God.

I look forward to further discussing the topics with you in the future Lucky strike.

[wvpeach1963]

Core refer to my above post about your and my timing on the posts yesterday.

I will be happy to do as you say and continue this discussion as Luckystrike and you suggest in the other thread ASAP.

I assume you took some time getting back to me with research because you were dilegent in yours.

Please afford me that same time in the other thread.

Paula


Peach, there is a simple way to resolve this.

The other thread contains links and more to the Watchtower, itself, site and documents, dealing with all of these issues.

Answer there and let this thread be silent, since the facts are posted there you are arguing about here.

Anyone with any knowledge knows about the infamous, misleading JW pamphlets and dodgings of the JWs who knock on one's door.

That is why I went to their serious study materials instead of the public image and semantical game playing they do when trying to bring others into the fold.

Your time is limted? Then devote it there, when it will also answer the issues here.

Lucky told you he was leaving these other things to me. So, abide by what Lucky said and answer there.

If you have all this time to post these long posts here and dig up and post pamphlets, you have time to just put your energies into proper answers there.

[eahaddix]

Lucky told you he was leaving these other things to me. So, abide by what Lucky said and answer there.

This is correct. As far as I am concerned, wvpeach1963's "because I said so" argumentation is invalid and unproductive. As a result, I am moving my activity onto different threads.

There is no need to duplicate this exchange.

:tiphat: "Because I said so."

[Sid]

As far as I am concerned, wvpeach1963's "because I said so" argumentation is invalid and unproductive.


Maybe she is comparing notes with one of her JW elders.

. . . you know you have got under a publisher's skin when they start coming three at a time.


Been there, done that. . . several times.


Once you take control of the questions, JWs run out of answers quick, fast and in a hurry.

[CoreIssue]

Lucky and Sid, cannot argue with either of you.

Way to much experience with those who knock on doors. And with respect, Peach, you most certainly sound like one of them.

Going back to the Elders and returning is indeed a key reaction to being stopped from preaching and into actual answering.

So, Peach, I will give you time to reply on the other thread, as requested. Just please make it direct answer to my direct links and verses.

As in, don't try to talk around 'a god' verus 'is God.' Either the translation is correct or it is not correct. Which it isn't.

Don't want to hear shopping cart verses with spins applied as if that is proper translation technique. Either the words of the verse directly translate to 'is God' or 'a god.' And if you claim 'a god' then you better have one great explanation of why every translator for 2,000 has been wrong until the NWT, which didn't have a linquist involved.

Or where they directly say Christ is Michael how their own plain words are wrong.

[wvpeach1963]

Sid you show a total lack of understanding of how you should treat your christian brothers and sisters. I hope you evolve and mature out of this lack of basic civil polite behavior you seem to be stuck in.

And you accuse me of lying. I assure you I have not told a lie in at least 20 years. God also taught me not to lie. Not even to save my own skin.

As I said above I am not a jehovah's Wittness , nor do I consult thier elders. They would tell me not to speak for them to begin with as I am not a member of thier faith.

What I do consult is the gift of the Holy Spirit my father God has been kind enough to give me. And before I answer anybody on a matter that deals with God's scriptures I pray to my Lord and savior Jesus to send the Holy Spirit so that its Gods words that come through not mine . Nor has my husband been interested in this debate , he's been to busy with his job to even look at this topic or forum.

It was the gift of the Holy Sprit that spoke through me above not my own words., which by the way I notice none of the three of you have addressed yet. LOL I assure you I have no emotions invested in this forum at all.

My mind tells me not to bother as I will not be a party to slandering other christians. But if God through his Holy Spirit wants to use me to speak truth to this forum for a period of time I will be obiedient and speak that truth as its given to me.

If God through his holy spirit gives me the words to address Core's post on the other thread I will. If the Holy Spirit doesn't give me the words then so shall it be. I will figure this thread was all that was supposed to be.

You see I pray God send me his words , not my own. So I am waiting on God. Nothing else.

JMHO you should pray he helps you to be kinder to your fellow christians you meet.

No skin off my back I assure you as I have lived in a world that God has seen to it toughened me beyond belief. But I hate to see christians behaving so , because for those new seekers thats the kind of behavior that turns them away from Christ instead of being met with love and kindness they are met with bitterness and unkind remarks like you seem to be fond of.


Maybe she is comparing notes with one of her JW elders.

. . . you know you have got under a publisher's skin when they start coming three at a time.


Been there, done that. . . several times.


Once you take control of the questions, JWs run out of answers quick, fast and in a hurry.

[CoreIssue]

Peach. Not another post from you until you respond to my links.

If you have the time to create such a long response to Sid you have time to answer.

You keep looking for ways to post without answering me.

No more. Answer or be silent. I mean it.

I am tired of you looking for ways to put down those who accurately label JW as a cult.

Answer the links. Let them speak for you.

[Sid]

http://www.rr-bb.com/images/smilies/pop2.gif

[CoreIssue]

:popcorn: :popcorn2: