Not claiming to be a christian!

[CoreIssue]

Note: The first 40 posts here are reposts from the old board by CoreIssue.

Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:48 pm by vagabond

I made claim to being a vessel of the Holy Spirit under another topic, in some ways I regret having made that statement, because now I'm feel compelled to qualify it. I will not claim to be a christian, not because I do or do not feel that I am, but because this puts me in a boat full of other "self proffessing" christians. I have heard a lot from such and my stomach is turned by it! My relationship with my Father is between him and I, what he reveals through me he reveals, if you see nothing revealed then either you're spiritually blind, or nothing is there.

However, for the sake of those who ask, I'll give you my testimony:

My name is Eric currently live in Canada,
I was born in Maine
My folks moved here when I was 9 years old,
My mother, a simple woman, told me that she dedicated me to God before I was born, she had me formally dedicated again in a little group of self proffessing christians. I saw a vision was I was three years old, at least I think it was, maybe an hallucination, at the time I thought that someone was playing a movie projector on a large white wall I was looking at.
My father wasn't much of a church goer, my mother went at times, not faithfully though, probabally because of my dad.

I was hauled to the alter once when I was about 7 years old, I didn't want to go, but my friends won the tug of war, I didn't repeat the words after the minister.

Another time, when I was about 12 years old, I had been going to a Pentecostal church, dragged there by my older brother, I didn't mind going, but never got the baptism as everyone else appeared to. I had been there many times, and more then once was the only one left that appeared to be in his right mind, everyone else was fallen down, running around the church half crying, half howolling, some were jumping, some were swaying back and forth with their eyes closed and etc..... One night a man came to me and asked me if I was saved, I knew what he was saying, but replied, "from what?" From sin he replied, yes I answered, and believed every word I spoke. He kept at me night after night until I went to the alter, this time I said the words that he asked me to say, my brother saw me at the alter came and put his arms around me and cried like a baby, I cried because I was moved by him. On the way home I felt violated, dirty, like I had done something wrong, I got over it quick.

As a teen ager I visited the occassional church or church group, I always asked questions and challenged answers. One of my favorite was "evolution", people were convinced that it was wrong, I saw it a little different and still do. I had taken evolution in high school, I was never fooled into thinking that it was an accident mind you, but I did question whether or not God could have brought things about through the evolution process. As a teen-ager I used to argue that, if there was a big bang, then it came when God spoke.

I dropped out of high school after the tenth grade, started working making good money and never looked back. Got married and had four children. Started drinking and smoking (cigarettes) around the age of eighteen. Kept this up until I was about twenty four, I never shirked my responsibility as a father, but other then on occassion did I consider my true responsibility. Something happened around the age of twenty four, I must have looked at where I was going and didn't see much purpose, can't say for sure, but I suddenly got a real urge to search out God. I had received a bible from my parents and began reading again. At the time I had about a 2hr. commute to work, one way. I started singing hymns that I knew and thinking about God. This went on for many months, the desire and time spent in meditation on him and his word was consuming my every moment. I started visiting different churches, but none were right, I didn't fit and could sense it almost immediately. I ached to fellowship about God, I tried a few bible studies, but there was no fellowship, even asking a question often caused an offense.

I thought there must be something wrong with me, why couldn't I get it like everyone else? I concluded that I must not be right with God, I wanted to be right but I couldn't find out how. I remember praying this prayer "God give me the desire to worship you", I learned to pray believing that I received what I asked for, so I ended my prayer with thank you, the prayer immediately gave me peace.

For the next few months I went to church, bible meeting, prayer meetings and etc.. like never before. It seemed like the word of God had opened up to me and I started understanding more and more, but what I was seeing wasn't the same as what others in the church was seeing. It didn't last long before I wore out my welcome in group after group.

This continued until I was about 30 years old, by then I had bought a farm outside of the city, moved there and held church services with my family and a small number of friends. I began working away from home, in the logging industry. We stayed in a camp miles out in the woods. I was working 12 hr. night shifts and spending most of my shift meditating on the word. I operated a large wood harvesting machine and was very used to operating it, it took little thought and so I had lots of time to think on spiritual things. I did a lot of writing and reading at that time.

I developed a habit of thinking about God and how he thinks, I looked at nature and how it works, thinking about how it expresses God. I thought about what he was doing with us here, why he started it, how he expected it to turn out, how he had set it into motion so that it couldn't fail. I would return to the camp with these thoughts fresh on my mind, open the bible and see if it witnessed to what I was seeing. I did this for about three years, I've got boxes of notes books and paper where I jotted down outlines of what I was seeing in the spirit and how the Word of God complimeneted it.

At one point I concluded that it was time to go back into the churches and share what I had been seeing. But I knew that it wouldn't be easy, I had been there before, they didn't accept me then, when I had little understanding, how would they be able to accept me now?

But a spiritual concept came to mind, the only way to get them to hear you is to "identify" with them first. Go to them in peace, if they receive your peace stay there, and whatever they eat (teach) eat it with them. My first experience was with the Jehovahs witnesses, it wasn't long before I wore out my welcome. So I bid my time, not trying to force anything to happen.

We had been Homeschooling our boys, but my oldest boy was about to start high school, we felt that he would need more then we could offer him at this stage so I started looking for a good school. In my search I stumbled across a small church, with a private school. I visited the principle and liked what they offered, however I thought it best to visit a church service to see just how "off the wall" they may be. They had a female pastor, A nice lady and seemingly well educated. I didn't think much of the church (doctrinally speaking), but so no harm with them either, so I enrolled my boy in there school.

As time went on three of my boys were in the school, my wife had become a full time volunteer, they loved her and she enjoyed them very much. We moved back to the city the following year, the drive was too much for my wife. Eventually I visited the church again and then it happened, as I was sitting in the pew I sensed the Spirit telling me that this is where I was being sent. I remember having an arguement with the spirit, "are you kidding? here? these people will never listen to me!". For a week, no matter how many ways I tried to prove the spirit that I was hearing was not from God, I still sensed in my spirit that it was.

I knew there was only one way that I could be used in this church, only if I loved them, not sort of, but really loved them. So I agreed to do it, I went to the church for the next few weeks, I smiled and nodded my head, I was kind and pleasant, whenever I could I would give out an affirmative "Amen" to the Pastor. But I knew in my spirit that I didn't really love them, I tried, but I just couldn't do it! Finally I asked the Spirit to love them through me, my prayer went like this, "I can't find it in me to love these people, I need you to love them through me, but I have one more request, I want to experience your love as it flows through me." After the prayer I sayed thank you, believing that I have received what I asked for.

My God, My God, how things changed in my spirit, these people became my every thought, they were in my every prayer, I listened to them and they seemed eager to talk to me after and sometimes bfore church. I never once tried to convince them of my doctrine, but if asked my opinion on a matter, I spoke from my view point.

Sometime within the second year the Pastor came to me and asked if I would preach for her, I gladly accepted. At first I thought, Okay, here's my opportunity to introduce them to my doctrine, but no! The Spirit intervened, instead I explained to them why I had come to their church. I told them that I had come to share things that I had been seeing in the Spirit. I confessed that I tried to love them, but couldn't do it. I explained my prayer to them and how the love of God working through me had changed my view of them. How that, maybe I wasn't here to show them anything, but was here to learn something myself. Needless to say, they were overwhelmed with my honesty, we became closer then ever, the Pastor asked me to preach over and over again. People started coming into the church when they heard I was going to preach, the church was being moved in a way as never before, not my words, but words of the Pastor.

About another year had gone by and I had been asked to speak again. Whenever I was asked to speak I spent all my time asking the Father what I should speak about, I didn't search scriptures until I received something from the Spirit. This particular week I was sensing a message on "removing the idols". The Pastor had started a weekly practise on "worshipping in the spirit", she had based it on a tabernacle of David teaching. Every Wednesday night we would meet, we would play a few selected songs pausing in between, waiting for the Spirit to move, the first night was fantastic! But not once after that did the Spirit move, the Pastor was getting frustrated, she occassionally would go from person to person, put her hands on them and pray that they would receive the Holy Spirit. After she prayed, she would say, "Okay, what is the spirit saying to you?" Hoping for a prophetic word, song, or etc... It was very obvious that the Spirit was being bound, not loosed. None the less, this had become a seemingly obsession with the Pastor.

The morning I was to preach I was troubled in my spirit, I knew the word I was given would be an hard one, I walked for miles wrestling with the Spirit in my mind. I knew in my spirit that I was to give this sermon, but sure didn't want to, fearing the reaction. I decided, about an hour before I was to speak, that I wouldn't give it another thought, when it was time I would speak about whatever came to mind. I was at peace with this and waited. I preached a sermon based on good kings in the sight of God, how they first removed the sacrifices. I likened it to church services, how many things have become a ritual, having meaning at first, but the meaning is eventually drowned out with the act. I compared rituals; praye hours, communion, worship hours, bible studies, and even sermons, with the idols. That we have come to worshipping God through outward motions and not from the heart. I suggested that we should lay down our rituals, for a time, and see how the Spirit would move, I suggested, that perhaps we have hand-cuffed the Spirit in not allowing it to lead us, instead of us expecting it to follow our rituals. As I spoke, using scripture examples to express my thoughts, I could see the Pastors eyes getting darker and darker.

The Pastor's comments on my sermon were, "that was mind boggling, I'm not sure if I completly understand it yet". A week later she came to me and said, "I sensed anger in your last sermon". I asked her if I had said anything wrong, she said, no, it's just that I sensed a lot of anger, maybe you should pray about it. I was never asked to speak again!

Months went by and people were asking me when I would speak again, I could only answer, when the Pastor asks me too. They started going to the Pastor and asking her, her countenance towards me began to change, at least as far as I could tell. People slowly stopped coming to the church, it became quite evident. I was doing home bible studies, with blessings from the Pastor, and the crowd there was more then at the church, I began fearing the outcome. Eventually the Pastor asked me to do sunday night bible lessons at the church, of course I agreed. Everything was fine for a long while, I taught my doctrines and was amazed that there was no challenge to them.

By this time I was speaking at other churches, upon request, I kept it simple speaking about the love of God, and only occassionally sampling deeper things. An elder of one church asked me to go to a convention with him, asked if I would introduce some of my teachings to the elders there. I told him that I would pray about it an let him know.

Before I would go, I was to meet one of the head elders of that church, he was coming up from Alabama? I prepared a teaching on the "two cherubims" as mentioned by apostle Paul. I didn't feel comfortable with showing this to this man before I got the blessing from Pastor Millie, I spoke to her just before a friday night meeting, telling her that I had been asked to introduce this doctrine to another church. I asked her if she would mind taking a look at it before I shared it with them, she gladly accepted and asked if I would leave it in her office.

The same night, after the church meeting, a small group of us met at a coffee shop, I was surprised at not seeing one member in particular, she showed up about an hour late. She was very troubled, the Pastor had cornered her after the meeting and was very upset with my letter. Mary explained to me that the Pastor was almost yelling, and pointing out parts of the letter that she didn't agree with. Mary couldn't tell me, in detail, which parts, she said she was dumb founded by the Pastors reaction.

I contacted the Pator the following day, I asked her if we could talk about the letter, that I heard that she was quite upset, no, she explained, you have no problem with the letter I asked, no, well only one thing, when you quoted "he is the prince of the kings of the earth", the word "prince" would have been better interpretated as "ruler". I agreed and asked if that had changed what I had said in the letter, no, I just thought you should know that. Needless to say, I was dumb founded, it was not like Mary to exaggerate a matter like this one.

The Pastor told me that she was going to take over sunday night bible studies again, she was very polite about it, saying, "I have been wanting to teach on the gifts of the spirit for some time now". She stopped announcing my thursday night bible studies, people still came, but noted that she had stopped announcing them. I began to notice that she was teaching about many things I had mentioned in my letter, not mentioning what I said, but just teaching as if I had never written the letter.

One night, after a worship hour meeting, she drew me aside and told me she had a word from the Lord for me, "you are in the wrong field". I knew then that she wanted me to leave the church, I thanked her and went on my way.

Another night I was called at home by her daughter, Rhonda, Rhonda was the schoolprinciple and church administrator, I guess, she seldom was seen in the meetings, but was always in the building. I went to her office, wondering what to expect, she told me that people had come to her about me, that I was bad mouthing the Pastor outside of the church. I asked her, who? She said she couldn't tell me. I asked her, "what did I say then", she repeated, I can't tell you who, "I don't care who, I'm asking what did they say I said?" She avoided answering that and continued, "can you swear on your eternal salvation that you didn't say anything bad about the Pastor?" I set there for a moment, bewildered, before I could answer her, she said, " forget it, I don't want you to go to hell for telling a lie, but you shouldn't have to think about it, you know that you did!" She then told me that she wanted me to leave the church, quietly, that under the circumstances I shouldn't be there, I was creating a "divisive" spirit in the church. I told her that I wouldn't leave without a leading from the spirit, that I wanted to talk with the Pastor, that if she wanted me out she would have to do it herself, she called me a coward and a trouble maker. I spoke to the Pastor later that night, I asked her if we could meet and talk, she hesitated for a long moment, I thought she would accept, but she answered, "No! I think that you should leave and play your games somewhere else!" Are you sure we can't talk? There is no need to, we're on to you now. Not knowing how to respond I said, Okay, I'm sorry for whatever I did.

The following sunday I showed up at the church, my friends convinced me that I shouldn't go in, so I parked on the street, I was a few minutes late for church so no one saw me there, I'm not exactly sure why I was there myself. I got out of the car after a few minutes and headed for a local coffee shop on the corner, I was about fifteen feet away from my car when I heard, "Eric!". It was Rhonda and her husband Dave, coming to me from the church steps, they must have been watching from the window. I waited where I was until they reached me, I was smiling and said good morning, "here she snapped, this is for you," handing me a piece of paper, "You did this to yourself!" Thanks I said, taking the paper, still smiling, what is it? It's a tresspass notice! You have to stay away from here, we know what you're up to.

I never saw her or the Pastor again, since then I've been holding meetings in my home, and meeting in coffee shops. Most evrybody has left that church, some still come to my meetings, some go to another place.

For the last little while I have been spending time on different forums, it's much harder here, many have much to say and don't care to listen. I find people a lot like they are in heavy traffic, they don't see other people as people, just obsticules that get in the way. People are very cold on these forums, in general, like in a car, it's easy to hate someone you don't identify with. There's not much personal about some loud mouth with a nick-name.

My most profound experience I had with the Spirit, I'll keep to myself for now, it was the sinlge most convincing thing that convinced me of who I am.

I've had numerous other experiences that I'll not bore you with now.

I'm sorry for the lengthy post, I don't know if this is what you're looking for, I know that you'd like me to explain my view on "how does one become a vessel", I do have an opinion, but the original concern was, "just who is this guy".

I would like to apologize to Core Issue, for accusing him of trying to "wiggle out" of answering. It was uncalled for, and not valid. I have enjoyed our talk and would like to continue.

I know that I seem quite, "out there", but I can't just stop seeing what I'm seeing because a group of people don't like it. If I had changed my thoughts for the first group that didn't agree, I'd probabally be in a false church today!

I try the spirit of people first, if the spirit is of God and witnesses to my spirit, then great, it's time to change my thoughts. I decided to expose myself a bit in my last post, to see if anyone care to take a look. I don't mind good rebuke, I encourage it! But I cannot change my whole doctrine in just a moment of time. I am looking, listening and balancing, waiting for a green light or red light from the Spirit.

In want to thank Core Issue for all of his time and patience, I apologize for any and all uncalled for remarks, I do not apologize yet for all that I have shared. We have agreed on a couple of things, and I appreciate your enlightment on them.

If there still questions on this messenger, I'm far from a good man, I'm selfish, bull headed, proudful, greedy and many other ungodly things. Not in action so much as in thought and character, I have gained a lot of self control and don't show these attributes much, but I sense they are still there and are being dealt with. I have asked the Father for a thourough cleansing, I have suffered many embarassing moments since, but I thank him for all of them. I still love the people at Agape Assembly, they are good people, trying very hard to do the right thing, God bless them and you.....eric

[CoreIssue]

vagabond wrote: I made claim to being a vessel of the Holy Spirit under another topic, in some ways I regret having made that statement, because now I'm feel compelled to qualify it. I will not claim to be a christian, not because I do or do not feel that I am, but because this puts me in a boat full of other "self proffessing" christians. I have heard a lot from such and my stomach is turned by it!



Gosh, vagabond. This makes it sound as if you are a true believer, and the rest of us are hypocrites. False believers. Like you are too good to associate with us lowly pleabs. As if we, or others, are not true believers, and you are.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt right now and say that I am willing to withdraw this statement on the provision that I am merely misunderstanding you. Hopefully, this is the case, under which scenario, I will apologize wholeheartedly.


vagabond wrote:My relationship with my Father is between him and I, what he reveals through me he reveals, if you see nothing revealed then either you're spiritually blind, or nothing is there.

Ummm... I'm not afraid I understand, be patient with me. Do you mean if we see nothing revealed through you, then we are spiritually blind, and nothing is there, or do you mean that if we see nothing revealed from the Father, we are blind? I'm just trying to clarify this statement.

vagabond wrote:One night a man came to me and asked me if I was saved, I knew what he was saying, but replied, "from what?" From sin he replied, yes I answered, and believed every word I spoke. He kept at me night after night until I went to the alter, this time I said the words that he asked me to say, my brother saw me at the alter came and put his arms around me and cried like a baby, I cried because I was moved by him. On the way home I felt violated, dirty, like I had done something wrong, I got over it quick.

I never thought this was an appropriate way to reach out to people with the Gospel of Christ. I don't like it, and don't like to see it done by others. IMHO, it pushes away more than it reaches.

vagabond wrote:Months went by and people were asking me when I would speak again, I could only answer, when the Pastor asks me too. They started going to the Pastor and asking her, her countenance towards me began to change, at least as far as I could tell. People slowly stopped coming to the church, it became quite evident. I was doing home bible studies, with blessings from the Pastor, and the crowd there was more then at the church, I began fearing the outcome. Eventually the Pastor asked me to do sunday night bible lessons at the church, of course I agreed. Everything was fine for a long while, I taught my doctrines and was amazed that there was no challenge to them.

I have one question, though. Is your doctrine verifiable by the Word of God, or did you get it by special revelation?

vagabond wrote:
For the last little while I have been spending time on different forums, it's much harder here, many have much to say and don't care to listen. I find people a lot like they are in heavy traffic, they don't see other people as people, just obsticules that get in the way. People are very cold on these forums, in general, like in a car, it's easy to hate someone you don't identify with. There's not much personal about some loud mouth with a nick-name.



Please don't misinterpret discernment as hate. We will hear anyone, and weigh what they say by God's Holy and Infallible Word. If it doesn't line up with scripture, we reject it. But that doesn't mean that we hate the person. We've got a lot of love to go around here. We even disagree with each other, but it has nothing to do with how much we love one another. By discussing and debating, we get a lot of learning done.

vagabond wrote:
I'm sorry for the lengthy post, I don't know if this is what you're looking for, I know that you'd like me to explain my view on "how does one become a vessel", I do have an opinion, but the original concern was, "just who is this guy".



To be honest, I would like to hear about your views on salvation, the spirit, etc.

vagabond wrote:I would like to apologize to Core Issue, for accusing him of trying to "wiggle out" of answering. It was uncalled for, and not valid. I have enjoyed our talk and would like to continue.

Just yesterday I was tempted to accuse Core of being Hoffa, but decided against it. http://www.christiantalkzone.net/archive/images/smiles/biggrin.gif

vagabond wrote:I try the spirit of people first, if the spirit is of God and witnesses to my spirit, then great, it's time to change my thoughts. I decided to expose myself a bit in my last post, to see if anyone care to take a look. I don't mind good rebuke, I encourage it! But I cannot change my whole doctrine in just a moment of time. I am looking, listening and balancing, waiting for a green light or red light from the Spirit.

We'll take ya up on that! http://www.christiantalkzone.net/archive/images/smiles/biggrin.gif

vagabond wrote:If there still questions on this messenger, I'm far from a good man, I'm selfish, bull headed, proudful, greedy and many other ungodly things. Not in action so much as in thought and character, I have gained a lot of self control and don't show these attributes much, but I sense they are still there and are being dealt with. I have asked the Father for a thourough cleansing, I have suffered many embarassing moments since, but I thank him for all of them.



Ah, that is something I can comprehend very well. You have just described me. http://www.christiantalkzone.net/archive/images/smiles/nod.gif

I would like to close this post by saying that we discuss a lot of things here, and debate topics. As I said earlier, we don't always agree on everything, but that doesn't mean we disrespect you. We can discuss things without resorting to anger, and I hope that continues. http://www.christiantalkzone.net/archive/images/smiles/nod.gif



Edited thrice for grammatical errors and such other stupidity. http://www.christiantalkzone.net/archive/images/smiles/blush.gif

Well! Like you're perfect, or somethin'! http://www.christiantalkzone.net/archive/images/smiles/wink1.gif

[CoreIssue]

Well, I am non denominational. I believe denominationalism is against the teachings of the NT.

I am against not hearing people out as long as they are not against questioning and proofs.

So, with that said your post said a ton. To me maybe far more then you realize

But it did not answer my question. Which is central to being a Christian.

Since you have pointed out you were/are in a Pentecostal setting I will change my question since they teach the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is separate from salvation, which isn't Biblical. Quote:1 Corinthians 12
12The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. 13For we were all baptized by[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2012;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28632c)] one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.


What do you think of this statement on salvation"
Quote:

Christ is God incarnate in human flesh to live the perfect human life to be acceptable as a sin sacrifice substitute for my sins.
Salvation is by repentance to Christ through faith in grace. I cannot save myself or keep myself save so I must submit to Christ and place my salvation totally in his hands.
Otherwise I am lost and doomed eternal separation from God.



Remember, you have the advantage of basically being able to find my position on most topics here by searching the Forum. I have to ask you for yours.
That is the key to salvation. The rest is important for sanctification but has nothing to do with salvation.
That answer will clear a lot up for many of us here.

[CoreIssue]

Hi Chrystalwuzhere, thanks for the kind words and an understanding heart.

Quote: Gosh, vagabond. This makes it sound as if you are a true believer, and the rest of us are hypocrites. False believers. Like you are too good to associate with us lowly pleabs. As if we, or others, are not true believers, and you are.



Sorry, that is far from my intent, I know my limitations, doubtless most on this board would put me to shame if we truly unmasked. The truth is in my confession, not in my profession, I can say the right words by taking a little thought, and satisfy all questions on my salvation. Don't believe every spirit, even me, but try the spirit, it's not the words we use but it's what we are saying that reveals us. As a man thinketh, in hisheart, so is he, not as he thinketh in his head.

Quote: I will give you the benefit of the doubt right now and say that I am willing to withdraw this statement on the provision that I am merely misunderstanding you. Hopefully, this is the case, under which scenario, I will apologize wholeheartedly.



You've got me here Chrystal, are you the one that referred to my post as "certainly not a christian"? Other then that I'm not sure which statement you're withdrawing. And you probabally haven't "misunderstood" my choice of words, but I think that you had misread my motive. After you've really seen me you may still shake your head at me, but you'll be smiling this time, saying, "he's a heck of a nice guy, but boy is he out to lunch", or not.
My relationship with my Father is between him and I, what he reveals through me he reveals, if you see nothing revealed then either you're spiritually blind, or nothing is there.

Ummm... I'm not afraid I understand, be patient with me. Do you mean if we see nothing revealed through you, then we are spiritually blind, and nothing is there, or do you mean that if we see nothing revealed from the Father, we are blind? I'm just trying to clarify this statement.


I am relating to a spirit, I'm claiming that the spirit that I see is the Father, if my claim is correct then the Father will be expressed through me and those who know the Father will see this expression. If people don't see this expression, either they are spiritually blind, or I am a liar!

Quote: I have one question, though. Is your doctrine verifiable by the Word of God, or did you get it by special revelation?



Everything I truly know and stand on I received first by special revelation, but I only truly know and stand on one thing, "My God is able to keep me". Upon this doctrine I have begun to build, I have to trust in this truth, without it I'm finished! "His right arm doth embrace me and his left hand is upon my head" (song of songs). It is this truth that has me questioning many doctrinal "concepts". The people at Agape were sticklers on detail, it has to be backed by the bible, and so it was, the KJV mind you so that goes only as far as you let it.


For the last little while I have been spending time on different forums, it's much harder here, many have much to say and don't care to listen. I find people a lot like they are in heavy traffic, they don't see other people as people, just obsticules that get in the way. People are very cold on these forums, in general, like in a car, it's easy to hate someone you don't identify with. There's not much personal about some loud mouth with a nick-name.


Quote: Please don't misinterpret discernment as hate. We will hear anyone, and weigh what they say by God's Holy and Infallible Word. If it doesn't line up with scripture, we reject it. But that doesn't mean that we hate the person. We've got a lot of love to go around here. We even disagree with each other, but it has nothing to do with how much we love one another. By discussing and debating, we get a lot of learning done.




I should clearify my comment, "it's much harder here", I didn't mean "here" on this particular forum, I meant "here" on forums in general.

I use the word "hate" quite lightly, I'll be throwing that word around again in explaining the mind of Christ as I see it. You've heard of the term "road rage", well what I've seen is a lot of "board rage". Here's what I mean:

The reason people are so rude to one another is because they don't "identify" with the person. If while driving down the road and someone is in the wrong lane holding up traffic, people can get very angry, think and say some of the worst things imaginable! But once they get past that car, there's another one doing some other stupid thing that makes us angry enough to want to shove them off the road. We come across car after car, day after day, but what we don't do is hate them personally. I cannot remember one face of one person who was driving one of the thousands of vehicles that ticked me off. If I had known the person that cut me off, or got in my way, then I would have been much more likely to forgive them, I would be better able to understand why they drive like they do, I may even just laugh at them, beep my horn to wake them up, wave my hand to get them to move out of the way. More then likely they, knowing me, would be laughing back at me on the way by, throwing their hands in the air pointing at there watch to ask me what's my hurry. Later when we meet we would probabally correct one anothers driving habits, jokingly, and move on to much more important issues. In the country folks are always waving at you. If you drive a big rig down the highway, other big riggers wave and honk at you as they pass. If you drive a school bus, other school bus drivers wave. The whole point is in "relation", if we "relate" to one another then we are much more compassionate. Hence, God came and related to mankind, to show us compassion.

Quote:To be honest, I would like to hear about your views on salvation, the spirit, etc.

And you shall, please be patient with me, I'm a slow driver.

Thanks for your post Chrystal, and for waving on your way by!

[CoreIssue]

Hi Core Issue, you said:

But it did not answer my question. Which is central to being a Christian.

Since you have pointed out you were/are in a Pentecostal setting I will change my question since they teach the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is separate from salvation, which isn't Biblical. 1 Corinthians 12
12The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. 13For we were all baptized by[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2012;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28632c)] one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.


What do you think of this statement on salvation"


Christ is God incarnate in human flesh to live the perfect human life to be acceptable as a sin sacrifice substitute for my sins.
Salvation is by repentance to Christ through faith in grace. I cannot save myself or keep myself save so I must submit to Christ and place my salvation totally in his hands.
Otherwise I am lost and doomed eternal separation from God.

Remember, you have the advantage of basically being able to find my position on most topics here by searching the Forum. I have to ask you for yours.

That is the key to salvation. The rest is important for sanctification but has nothing to do with salvation.

That answer will clear a lot up for many of us here.


Thanks for sharing the above scripture verse, I agree with it as it is written, and I base most of my doctrine on it. I'm glad that you quoted it for me, I'm very cautious now to quote scripture, so thanks. In another post I would like to pose a few more thoughts on salvation, such as: who is saved, what is saved, and what we are saved from. As you may have guessed, I have no "orthodox" view on the "overall" matter.

I haven't satisfied you with an answer on being a christian, but in your view, based on my testimony, am I justified in at least thinking that I am a vessel of the Holy Spirit, whether a vessel of honor or dis-honor, but a vessel none the less?

[CoreIssue]

Quote: I am relating to a spirit, I'm claiming that the spirit that I see is the Father, if my claim is correct then the Father will be expressed through me and those who know the Father will see this expression. If people don't see this expression, either they are spiritually blind, or I am a liar!


Sorry, but that isn't Biblical.
The Holy Spirit, not the Father, works with people on the earth. And also so do angels.

The Holy Spirit indwells us. We are washed in the blood of Christ. Christ is our intercessor to the Father and no one but Christ approaches the Father. We approach the Father via Christ.
Quote:John 14:6
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Quote:John 14:16
16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—
Quote:Romans 8
29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

But as well demons work on people on the earth

So bluntly said you are not seeing the Father.

I am not saying you are a liar. But I am saying you are either mistaken or decieved here.

To be a liar one must declare a falsehood knowing it as a falsehood. Or in the light of having the truth known to them persist in rejecting that truth.
Quote:Everything I truly know and stand on I received first by special revelation,...
Hmmmm. Special revelation and not the Bible. Nor verifiable by the Bible.

And yet you say test every spirit. Which we are to do by taking the claims to the Bible, not praying over it.

Praying over it is the proof of cults. Exactly what Mormons, Moonies, JWs and many others will tell you to do as they have and have received the answer it is truth. But truths that conflict and disagree with each other.

And this truth comes from seeing and hearing the Father, which I have already addressed.

Food for thought there.

I see a lot of claims, both subtle and overt, that you are the one with unique truth trying to wake up the masses of supposed saints.

Hmmmm. That would make you number I have lost track coming on and making such claims. Of course none of these claims ever agree with each other but everyone that comes on has THE truth we are missing.
Quote: Thanks for sharing the above scripture verse, I agree with it as it is written, and I base most of my doctrine on it. I'm glad that you quoted it for me, I'm very cautious now to quote scripture, so thanks. In another post I would like to pose a few more thoughts on salvation, such as: who is saved, what is saved, and what we are saved from. As you may have guessed, I have no "orthodox" view on the "overall" matter.

I haven't satisfied you with an answer on being a christian, but in your view, based on my testimony, am I justified in at least thinking that I am a vessel of the Holy Spirit, whether a vessel of honor or dis-honor, but a vessel none the less?


Very telling you made no comment on my salvation statement. Very telling.

No Biblical Christian would have hesitated to endorse it.

So, in answer to your question, no, you have not justified the claim of being a vessel of the Holy Spirit.

This dance around the issue is something we have seen many times in many forms.

We wait for your comments. I am sure we will have comments to make in return.

We are not your enemies. But neither are we going to endorse, support or let errors go without comment and challenge.

It is troubling that we see you doctrinal basis coming so heavily, so far, from extra Biblical sources.

[CoreIssue]

vagabond wrote: Hi Chrystalwuzhere, thanks for the kind words and an understanding heart.



You're very welcome. http://www.christiantalkzone.net/archive/images/smiles/nod.gif

vagabond wrote:

You've got me here Chrystal, are you the one that referred to my post as "certainly not a christian"? Other then that I'm not sure which statement you're withdrawing. And you probabally haven't "misunderstood" my choice of words, but I think that you had misread my motive. After you've really seen me you may still shake your head at me, but you'll be smiling this time, saying, "he's a heck of a nice guy, but boy is he out to lunch", or not.



I don't think I was the one who said that. I think it was CTZ who said that. What I meant by my statement was that if you weren't thinking we were hypocrites, I'd withdraw my statement and apologize, which I do now. I just needed to understand what you meant by not calling yourself a christian.
vagabond wrote:

I am relating to a spirit, I'm claiming that the spirit that I see is the Father, if my claim is correct then the Father will be expressed through me and those who know the Father will see this expression. If people don't see this expression, either they are spiritually blind, or I am a liar!



If it is supported by God's word, I have no problem listening. Shoot, I'll hear ya out even if it doesn't line up with God's Word.... may not agree with what you say, and will even tell you so...but you will be given the opportunity to speak here, as long as you provide scripture references for the points you are making.

vagabond wrote:

Everything I truly know and stand on I received first by special revelation, but I only truly know and stand on one thing, "My God is able to keep me".



Then we will hold every point of your special revelation up and compare it to God's Word.

vagabond wrote:Upon this doctrine I have begun to build, I have to trust in this truth, without it I'm finished! "His right arm doth embrace me and his left hand is upon my head" (song of songs). It is this truth that has me questioning many doctrinal "concepts". The people at Agape were sticklers on detail, it has to be backed by the bible, and so it was, the KJV mind you so that goes only as far as you let it.

We're sticklers on detail too.

vagabond wrote:

I should clearify my comment, "it's much harder here", I didn't mean "here" on this particular forum, I meant "here" on forums in general.

I use the word "hate" quite lightly, I'll be throwing that word around again in explaining the mind of Christ as I see it. You've heard of the term "road rage", well what I've seen is a lot of "board rage". Here's what I mean:

The reason people are so rude to one another is because they don't "identify" with the person. If while driving down the road and someone is in the wrong lane holding up traffic, people can get very angry, think and say some of the worst things imaginable! But once they get past that car, there's another one doing some other stupid thing that makes us angry enough to want to shove them off the road. We come across car after car, day after day, but what we don't do is hate them personally.



We like a good spirited debate around here.... but never resort to board rage. http://www.christiantalkzone.net/archive/images/smiles/biggrin.gif

vagabond wrote:Thanks for your post Chrystal, and for waving on your way by!

........eric








You're welcome, Eric. Let's learn together! http://www.christiantalkzone.net/archive/images/smiles/nod.gif

[CoreIssue]

Eric,
If you are a christian you should confess it. Don't beat around the bush on who and what you are.
Be proud to belong to Christ. If you do?
Confess what you beleive about him.
It will clear up a lot.
And give a good starting point for sharing views on scripture.

God Bless,
TLIR

[CoreIssue]

sparrows. http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/k9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Mat/10/32.html)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/c9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Mat&chapter=10&verse=32&version=kjv)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/l9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=10&verse=32&version=kjv)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/i_blank9.gif (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/v9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versions.pl?book=Mat&chapter=10&verse=32&version=kjv)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/d9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.pl?book=Mat&chapter=10&verse=32&version=kjv)
Mat 10:32 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=10&verse=32&version=kjv)Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/k9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Mat/10/33.html)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/c9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Mat&chapter=10&verse=33&version=kjv)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/l9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=10&verse=33&version=kjv)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/i_blank9.gif (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/v9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versions.pl?book=Mat&chapter=10&verse=33&version=kjv)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/d9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.pl?book=Mat&chapter=10&verse=33&version=kjv)
Mat 10:33 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=10&verse=33&version=kjv)But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/k9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Mat/10/34.html)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/c9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Mat&chapter=10&verse=34&version=kjv)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/l9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=10&verse=34&version=kjv)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/i_blank9.gif (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/v9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versions.pl?book=Mat&chapter=10&verse=34&version=kjv)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/d9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.pl?book=Mat&chapter=10&verse=34&version=kjv)
Mat 10:34 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=10&verse=34&version=kjv)sorry my copy/paste wasnt so good.
but Jesus was very clear about what he said.

[CoreIssue]

Quote: Eric,
If you are a christian you should confess it. Don't beat around the bush on who and what you are.
Be proud to belong to Christ. If you do?
Confess what you beleive about him.
It will clear up a lot.
And give a good starting point for sharing views on scripture.

God Bless,
TLIR



Thanks TLIR, I do confess to belonging to Christ, I do confess to being a vessel of the Holy Spirit, I'm trying to confess what I believe (see) about him. However, the term "christian" has been tossed around so freely that I don't care to claim being one, however if someone calls me a christian I'll accept it. My confession is Christ, who he is, was and shall be, I do not deny him, nor do I deny those who are his, but I do deny those who "say" there are his if I cannot see him in them. That was my whole point in not answering the charge: "certainly not christian".

Acts 11:26) And the disciple were first "called" christians at Antioch. KJV.

"Many will come in that day saying, we are Christ (ians)".

I would like to do a post showing the difference between what we confess from the heart, and what we profess from our mind.

A confession from the heart comes automaticly, but a profession from the mind is forced by the speaker. In other words, anyone can say he is a christian if they have brains enough to form the words, but only those who are convinced in their hearts (spirit) can truly confess it.

[CoreIssue]

sparrows. http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/k9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Mat/10/32.html)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/c9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Mat&chapter=10&verse=32&version=kjv)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/l9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=10&verse=32&version=kjv)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/i_blank9.gif (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/v9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versions.pl?book=Mat&chapter=10&verse=32&version=kjv)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/d9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.pl?book=Mat&chapter=10&verse=32&version=kjv)
Mat 10:32 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=10&verse=32&version=kjv)Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/k9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Mat/10/33.html)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/c9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Mat&chapter=10&verse=33&version=kjv)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/l9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=10&verse=33&version=kjv)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/i_blank9.gif (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/v9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versions.pl?book=Mat&chapter=10&verse=33&version=kjv)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/d9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.pl?book=Mat&chapter=10&verse=33&version=kjv)
Mat 10:33 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=10&verse=33&version=kjv)But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/k9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Mat/10/34.html)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/c9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Mat&chapter=10&verse=34&version=kjv)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/l9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=10&verse=34&version=kjv)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/i_blank9.gif (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/v9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versions.pl?book=Mat&chapter=10&verse=34&version=kjv)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/d9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.pl?book=Mat&chapter=10&verse=34&version=kjv)
Mat 10:34 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=10&verse=34&version=kjv)sorry my copy/paste wasnt so good.
but Jesus was very clear about what he said.

Thanks Jessie........eric

[CoreIssue]

Quote: A confession from the heart comes automaticly, but a profession from the mind is forced by the speaker. In other words, anyone can say he is a christian if they have brains enough to form the words, but only those who are convinced in their hearts (spirit) can truly confess it.


I think some have trouble distingushing the difference between the two, a lot of people are decieaved by seeing something then speaking it as truth from the mind rather than it coming from the heart.
Truth comes easy when it is from God.

[CoreIssue]

A confession from the heart comes automaticly, but a profession from the mind is forced by the speaker. In other words, anyone can say he is a christian if they have brains enough to form the words, but only those who are convinced in their hearts (spirit) can truly confess it.

I think some have trouble distingushing the difference between the two, a lot of people are decieaved by seeing something then speaking it as truth from the mind rather than it coming from the heart.
Truth comes easy when it is from God.



I agree 100%, thanks in the wind!

Perhaps that's why john said, "try the spirit if it be of God or not".
Other measuring stick are: "he that loveth not knoweth not God, for God is love!"
" if one says he loves God, who he cannot see, yet hateth his own brother whom he can see, is a liar and has not known God".

.....eric

[CoreIssue]

Quote: if one says he loves God, who he cannot see, yet hateth his own brother whom he can see, is a liar and has not known God".

Isn`t that sticker for some.

[CoreIssue]

Quote:Thanks TLIR, I do confess to belonging to Christ, I do confess to being a vessel of the Holy Spirit, I'm trying to confess what I believe (see) about him. However, the term "christian" has been tossed around so freely that I don't care to claim being one, however if someone calls me a christian I'll accept it. My confession is Christ, who he is, was and shall be, I do not deny him, nor do I deny those who are his, but I do deny those who "say" there are his if I cannot see him in them. That was my whole point in not answering the charge: "certainly not christian".
Interesting.

I still see no confession Christ is God incarnate in the flesh. I keep hearing he is the Word of God in the flesh.

Then I see how you define Word.

And one is not Christian or saved unless you see it in them?

Hmmmm. Many will stand before God confessing their works in his name. And yet do not belong to him and go to Hell.

Your confession is carefully worded. And can be applied to Mormons and such.

But they have another Christ than the true one.

A Christian hesitating to declare his Christ ot the world? That is just... strange.

[CoreIssue]

Quote:However, the term "christian" has been tossed around so freely that I don't care to claim being one,


I can certainly relate to this statement. The term "christian" has been used very generically. Add on top of that WOF, TV evangelists, cults and phonies who have brought disgrace to the Gospel calling themselves Christians, makes me wanna puke!

Never-the-less, I am a son of the Most High God, an heir to the Kingdom, a disciple of Christ and I need to stand firm in who and what I am. Therefore, I am a Christian - Born Again - a sinner saved by grace, alive because of GOD's mercy.

[CoreIssue]

do you believe that Jesus was God in the flesh?

and why do you say you are a "vessel"?

I havent heard those words for many yrs. just curious!

[CoreIssue]

Vagabond. Are you a Christadelphian?

Or, asking another way do you support Christadelphian beliefs about Christ?

Or, yet another, do you believe Christ is God's divine wisdom incarnate in the flesh?

[CoreIssue]

Jessie wrote: do you believe that Jesus was God in the flesh?

and why do you say you are a "vessel"?

I havent heard those words for many yrs. just curious!


1. Yes
2. a) Because: I hear his word, received it with joy, and delight to be a willing vessel.
b) Because: even a "jack ass" like me can be used by God, one way or another.
c) As did the virgin mary, I thanked God when I received his message, and I sang and still sing, "be it unto me according to thy word".

Thanks for asking.

[CoreIssue]

CoreIssue wrote: Vagabond. Are you a Christadelphian?

Or, asking another way do you support Christadelphian beliefs about Christ?

Or, yet another, do you believe Christ is God's divine wisdom incarnate in the flesh?


1. I haven't a clue.
2. No, because I have no Idea what they are.
3. Yes, I believe that Jesus received his true Wisdom when the Spirit descended upon him like a dove. I believe that anything we truly know, we know because Christ in us has shown it to us. I believe that we should wait on this Wisdom for "revelation" even after we have figured it all out on our own. I believe that it is this Wisdom that shall confound the wise of this age, and make foolish the intelligence of those who lean not on this Wisdom, but rather on their own understanding.

Thanks for asking.

[CoreIssue]

CoreIssue wrote: Vagabond. Are you a Christadelphian?

Or, asking another way do you support Christadelphian beliefs about Christ?

Or, yet another, do you believe Christ is God's divine wisdom incarnate in the flesh?


1. I haven't a clue.
2. No, because I have no Idea what they are.
3. Yes, I believe that Jesus received his true Wisdom when the Spirit descended upon him like a dove. I believe that anything we truly know, we know because Christ in us has shown it to us. I believe that we should wait on this Wisdom for "revelation" even after we have figured it all out on our own. I believe that it is this Wisdom that shall confound the wise of this age, and make foolish the intelligence of those who lean not on this Wisdom, but rather on their own understanding.

Thanks for asking.

Well, you think that was a crafty answer that dodged the bullet. But it was not crafty and did not dodge anything.

You have revealed more than you realize here.
So, time to end the games. We have tried to have honest and open conversations with you but you have been playing evasive semantical games to avoid direct answers. And not playing them well, I will add.
We have rules against preaching and rules against not answering questions (nonsense like you tried here is not answering question)

1. Do you believe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit together are God? The triune Godhead?
2. Do you believe Christ in his pre-existence was absolutely equal in all ways to the Father and Holy Spirit?
3. Do you believe only the Father is God?
4. Do you believe the Father has flesh?
5. Do you believe the Holy Spirit is not an eternal personage but actually the spirit of the Father?
6. What is Christ today? As in a personage, flesh or what?
If you are not Christian that does not mean you cannot post here. But if you do not answer truthfully and reply to refutations and questions it does mean you cannot.

[CoreIssue]

Vagabond. Are you a Christadelphian?

Or, asking another way do you support Christadelphian beliefs about Christ?

Or, yet another, do you believe Christ is God's divine wisdom incarnate in the flesh?

1. I haven't a clue.
2. No, because I have no Idea what they are.
3. Yes, I believe that Jesus received his true Wisdom when the Spirit descended upon him like a dove. I believe that anything we truly know, we know because Christ in us has shown it to us. I believe that we should wait on this Wisdom for "revelation" even after we have figured it all out on our own. I believe that it is this Wisdom that shall confound the wise of this age, and make foolish the intelligence of those who lean not on this Wisdom, but rather on their own understanding.

Thanks for asking.


Well, you think that was a crafty answer that dodged the bullet. But it was not crafty and did not dodge anything.
You have revealed more than you realize here.
So, time to end the games. We have tried to have honest and open conversations with you but you have been playing evasive semantical games to avoid direct answers. And not playing them well, I will add.

We have rules against preaching and rules against not answering questions (nonsense like you tried here is not answering question)


I could not answer question number one, so I said I haven't a clue, I honestly have never heard of "christadelphian".
I gave a clear "no" to question question two, and explained why.
I gave a clear "yes" to question three and explained why.
I don't see a problem in my answers.

Quote:1. Do you believe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit together are God? The triune Godhead?

No! I think the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit together are God. The triune God head. I think that there is a difference between the Son and the Word.

Quote:2. Do you believe Christ in his pre-existence was absolutely equal in all ways to the Father and Holy Spirit?


Yes!

Quote:3. Do you believe only the Father is God?

No!


Quote:4. Do you believe the Father has flesh?


Yes, but only through his Word.


Quote:5. Do you believe the Holy Spirit is not an eternal personage but actually the spirit of the Father?

I think the Holy Spirit is the spirit of the Father.
Quote:6. What is Christ today? As in a personage, flesh or what?

Jesus Christ, is an expecting Father, his Word is in his church (bride), and when her full time has come she shall give birth to a nation.

Quote:

If you are not Christian that does not mean you cannot post here. But if you do not answer truthfully and reply to refutations and questions it does mean you cannot.



I understand, I'll do my best.

[CoreIssue]

Quote: I could not answer question number one, so I said I haven't a clue, I honestly have never heard of "christadelphian".
I gave a clear "no" to question question two, and explained why.
I gave a clear "yes" to question three and explained why.
I don't see a problem in my answers.


No. You did not give a clear yes to number 3. I said God's wisdom incarnate and you said his wisdom descended on Christ way after the incarnation.

If yes then the Wisdom incarnated as Flesh.
Quote:1. Do you believe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit together are God? The triune Godhead?
Quote:
No! I think the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit together are God. The triune God head. I think that there is a difference between the Son and the Word.


Please explain how the Son and Word are different?

In plain everyday words what is the difference between the Son of God and the Word of God?
Quote:</SPAN> Quote:2. Do you believe Christ in his pre-existence was absolutely equal in all ways to the Father and Holy Spirit?


Yes!


Equal but not God as in part of the Trinity? Christ is the Son of God and you said that is not God, as in Trinity.

Truly contradictory. Christ is the Word. Christ is the Son. The Word is God. The Son is not. God.

You need to make up your mind who Christ was and is.

3. Do you believe only the Father is God?

No!


But the Word is the Father's Word created by him and returns to the Father by your own words.
How can the Word be of the Father in origin and yet be a separate personality from the Father?

You are not making sense.
4. Do you believe the Father has flesh?
Yes, but only through his Word.


And yet the Word became flesh, not the Father. And you say the Word is separate from God equal to God. But the Word is from the Father and gives the Father flesh?
You don't have this clear in your head at all, do you?

Either the Word came out of the Father and thus gave him flesh via the Word or the Word is equal to and not part of the Father and took on its own flesh. Either two distinct beings and personages or one being and personage manifiesting itself in more than one form.

Which is it? You are sayiing one one moment and the other another.

As you are claiming Christ is not both the Son and the Word when the Bible says he is both.
5. Do you believe the Holy Spirit is not an eternal personage but actually the spirit of the Father?

I think the Holy Spirit is the spirit of the Father.


Which contradicts your answer to the first point because you said they together are God. Plural personages by my question and your reply.

The correct phrasing you should have used is the Father, Word and Holy Spirit IS God.

That is because you do not see them as separate personages but aspects of one personage. So singular, not plural.
6. What is Christ today? As in a personage, flesh or what?

Jesus Christ, is an expecting Father, his Word is in his church (bride), and when her full time has come she shall give birth to a nation.


The Father in the flesh via his incarnate Word.

Yep. you are a Modalist.


If you are not Christian that does not mean you cannot post here. But if you do not answer truthfully and reply to refutations and questions it does mean you cannot.

I understand, I'll do my best.


All we ask for is honest and complete answers. Not games.

We are Biblical Christians here. And that means we will listen and talk as long as the conversation is honest.





</SPAN>

[CoreIssue]

Quote:
Please explain how the Son and Word are different?

In plain everyday words what is the difference between the Son of God and the Word of God?





The Word of God is his seed, sperm if I may, the Son is the "manifestation" of that seed. The Son, when fully mature is also a tri-unity being. He is a Father, with a Word and a Spirit. He is him, his seed is him and his spirit is him.
Adam was created in the image of God:
And God said, "let us" make man in "our" image, and after "our" likeness.
Adam was made, male and female, he had seed in him, that is a tri-unity.
The Holy Spirit is the vessel of the Word (seed), it is the female of the God tri-unity.
The vessel for Adam's seed was removed from him, Eve, and Adam planted his seed in her, she bear a child and "in the child" they were a tri-unity again.

I didn't answer each question, I thought this would suffice.

[CoreIssue]

Please explain how the Son and Word are different?

In plain everyday words what is the difference between the Son of God and the Word of God?


The Word of God is his seed, sperm if I may, the Son is the "manifestation" of that seed. The Son, when fully mature is also a tri-unity being. He is a Father, with a Word and a Spirit. He is him, his seed is him and his spirit is him.
Adam was created in the image of God:
And God said, "let us" make man in "our" image, and after "our" likeness.
Adam was made, male and female, he had seed in him, that is a tri-unity.
The Holy Spirit is the vessel of the Word (seed), it is the female of the God tri-unity.
The vessel for Adam's seed was removed from him, Eve, and Adam planted his seed in her, she bear a child and "in the child" they were a tri-unity again.

I didn't answer each question, I thought this would suffice.



You are defining Modalism.

And Adam was not both make and female.

We are triune in being one person composed of body, mind and spirit.

God is triune in being three, not one person, in a unity of one.

Very major difference of meaning.

Adam, Eve and child are a family. Not a triunity in the context of either a person or God as you have defined God.

[CoreIssue]

OK.

I believe what you are saying is God is a triune being but you define triune as aspects of his one being.

God is the Father, Word and Spirit. But these are not different persons but aspects of his own being. Parts of one singular being God.

The Son is the human flesh the Word took root in and through which the Father and Spirit act. Or something similar to that.

Might not be perfect but that is close I believe.

Nothing new here.

This is Modalism. And is not Biblical.

[CoreIssue]

OK.

Quote: I believe what you are saying is God is a triune being but you define triune as aspects of his one being.

God is the Father, Word and Spirit. But these are not different persons but aspects of his own being. Parts of one singular being God.

The Son is the human flesh the Word took root in and through which the Father and Spirit act. Or something similar to that.

Might not be perfect but that is close I believe.



Very close, The Father being the head of the tri-unity, choosing where his Word will be planted, the Word is the seed of the Father, the Spirit is the Blood of the Father, which carries the seed, nurtures the seed, and so on. The Father looks over his Word, By His Spirit, to perform it. It is the Spirit that quickens the Word in whatever vessel it's in.


Quote: Nothing new here.

This is Modalism. And is not Biblical.



I can't argue whether or not it's Modalism, if it is, I bet I and the "Modalist" will soon be seen separate in thought.
I would argue, however, that it is very biblical.

[CoreIssue]

OK.

Quote: Quote:
I believe what you are saying is God is a triune being but you define triune as aspects of his one being.

God is the Father, Word and Spirit. But these are not different persons but aspects of his own being. Parts of one singular being God.

The Son is the human flesh the Word took root in and through which the Father and Spirit act. Or something similar to that.

Might not be perfect but that is close I believe.



Very close, The Father being the head of the tri-unity, choosing where his Word will be planted, the Word is the seed of the Father, the Spirit is the Blood of the Father, which carries the seed, nurtures the seed, and so on. The Father looks over his Word, By His Spirit, to perform it. It is the Spirit that quickens the Word in whatever vessel it's in.
But you are not defining a triunity. A triunity is 3 separate things or persons operating as one.

You are defining a monotheistic god of 3 aspects within him.

Very big difference. And very much not what triunity means.
Nothing new here.

This is Modalism. And is not Biblical.


I can't argue whether or not it's Modalism, if it is, I bet I and the "Modalist" will soon be seen separate in thought.



There isn't a single Modalism camp. There are many and none agree with each other on how to define God. Quote:I would argue, however, that it is very biblical.
And there you are very wrong.


I gave a proof example on this in another topic.

[CoreIssue]

Quote: But you are not defining a triunity. A triunity is 3 separate things or persons operating as one.

You are defining a monotheistic god of 3 aspects within him.

Very big difference. And very much not what triunity means.




A son is his father and mother made one, the son has the seed and bloodline of his father in him. This is a perfect example of the plural Elohiym.

For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife, and they two shall become one. How? When they have a Son. As did God, so shall Jesus Christ. And so shall his sons have sons, and they shall all be three in one. a triunity? Call it what you will, I stole the term for lack of a better word.

[CoreIssue]

But you are not defining a triunity. A triunity is 3 separate things or persons operating as one.

You are defining a monotheistic god of 3 aspects within him.

Very big difference. And very much not what triunity means.


A son is his father and mother made one, the son has the seed and bloodline of his father in him. This is a perfect example of the plural Elohiym.

For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife, and they two shall become one. How? When they have a Son. As did God, so shall Jesus Christ. And so shall his sons have sons, and they shall all be three in one. a triunity? Call it what you will, I stole the term for lack of a better word.



this almost sounds like mormonism.

[CoreIssue]

Quote: this almost sounds like mormonism.



That's interesting, because it's a quote from the bible:

Gen.2:23) And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken from man. :24)Therefore shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they two shall become one flesh.

Eph. 5:30) For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. :31) For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

Look at these verses:
Gen. 1:26) And God said, let us make man in "our" image, after "our" likeness.
Gen. 3:22) And the Lord God said, Behold, the man has become as "one of us",
The word "one" used in this verse is: #259 strong's,echad, a numeral from 258; prop. united, i.e. one; (or as an ordinal) first:- a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any (-thing), apiece, a certain [dai-] ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, only, other, some, together.

[CoreIssue]

Quote:For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife, and they two shall become one. How? When they have a Son


This is inaccurate. Having a "son" has nothing to do with the act of marriage and 2 becoming one flesh. Given your analogy, that would actually work out to 6.

???????????????????????

[CoreIssue]

How does two becoming one make six in my analogy?
I said that man was made in the "image" and after the likeness of the Godhead.
Then I showed you how they are in this image.

[CoreIssue]

Hey vagabond,
Quote:How? When they have a Son.
You qualified the 2 becoming one with their having a son.The 2 become 1 without children involved and by what you have stated, that following your logic, it would then make it 3 not 2. Following your continued statement,
Quote:cleave to his wife, and they two shall become
now you have a mother, father, son and daughter in-law (assuming they are married), that makes 5. Add they're having a son = 6.

In both scenarios, 2 become one when physically joined together. Offspring are not included in this bond. Offspring are a result of the 2 becoming one and that is a totally different relationship.
Though there is a family liniage, one has nothing to do with the other and becoming one (if this is making sense).

[CoreIssue]

But you are not defining a triunity. A triunity is 3 separate things or persons operating as one.

You are defining a monotheistic god of 3 aspects within him.

Very big difference. And very much not what triunity means.


A son is his father and mother made one, the son has the seed and bloodline of his father in him. This is a perfect example of the plural Elohiym.

For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife, and they two shall become one. How? When they have a Son. As did God, so shall Jesus Christ. And so shall his sons have sons, and they shall all be three in one. a triunity? Call it what you will, I stole the term for lack of a better word.



But the Spirit of Christ is God and not the creation of the Father via the Holy Spirit. Only the flesh is.
And that is where you go very wrong here.
Christ, meaning the flesh, is the Son of God, not the Spirit in him. The Son relationship comes via the flesh, not the spirit.

We are joined to Christ via the perfecting of our spirits. Currently our flesh is not in relationship to God at all.
Nor do not become aspects or parts of God because we are sons of God. Do we?
You have the relationships and realities all messed up.

[CoreIssue]

Thanks flames,
In Ephesians 5:31) Paul explains that the two shall be one "flesh".
A son, is part father and part mother, so, in the son the father and mother are even more then just figuratively one. Yet the son is still a son. When a son leaves his father and mother, he leaves as a man with all three parts, yet one body, when he takes a wife and impregnates her with his seed, he has started his own generation. Jesus Christ is to be called "everlasting father". He has a bride (the church), he has planted a seed, but the manchild has not yet been born.

If two clinging together were enough, then Paul would not have prophesied in the mystery:
Eph.5:31)"the two shall be one flesh". :32) This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

The church is already considered the bride, the people (church) already have the seed of God in them, but it is not been made manifest (born) yet.

[CoreIssue]

Hey vagabond,
</SPAN>Quote:How? When they have a Son.
You qualified the 2 becoming one with their having a son.The 2 become 1 without children involved and by what you have stated, that following your logic, it would then make it 3 not 2. Following your continued statement,
Quote:cleave to his wife, and they two shall become
now you have a mother, father, son and daughter in-law (assuming they are married), that makes 5. Add they're having a son = 6.

In both scenarios, 2 become one when physically joined together. Offspring are not included in this bond. Offspring are a result of the 2 becoming one and that is a totally different relationship.
Though there is a family liniage, one has nothing to do with the other and becoming one (if this is making sense).


Sorry, Flames. I forgot to comment.


Good points. Very applicable here

[CoreIssue]

Quote:
Thanks flames,
In Ephesians 5:31) Paul explains that the two shall be one "flesh".
A son, is part father and part mother, so, in the son the father and mother are even more then just figuratively one.



A child does not merge the beings of the father and the mother. Nor is the child the being of the father and mother.

Ephesians is not talking about the relationship or genetic nature of children. It is talking about a man and a woman being joined by a very special relationship.

They are one in relationship but not one being. They still remain two beings.

We, by sharing a special relationship to Christ enter into a singular relationship with him. But we never become Christ.

God is a special singular relationship of three beings. They are one in relationship but 3 in personage and existence.
Quote:Yet the son is still a son. When a son leaves his father and mother, he leaves as a man with all three parts, yet one body,
The passage is about the joining of man and woman. Not reproduction.

This has no application to Christ's relationship with the Father.
Quote:when he takes a wife and impregnates her with his seed, he has started his own generation. Jesus Christ is to be called "everlasting father". He has a bride (the church), he has planted a seed, but the manchild has not yet been born.
Christ is NEVER called everlasting Father. You still have never provided a single verse ever saying this.

Christ is our BROTHER. Not Father.
Quote: If two clinging together were enough, then Paul would not have prophesied in the mystery:
Eph.5:31)"the two shall be one flesh". :32) This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.


Has nothing to do with the relationship of the Father to the Son, Christ.

The Church is man and woman relationship. Neither is the seed offspring of the other.

Your doctrine of spinning Logos in to rhema into the farmers seed isn't flying.

Christ is not the seed. Logos is not the seed. The written word of God is the rhema seed. Logos does not equal rhema.
Quote:The church is already considered the bride, the people (church) already have the seed of God in them, but it is not been made manifest (born) yet.
Really? We are not born-again? Our spirits are not cleansed? The Holy Spirit does not yet indwell us?

The words of Christ did not bring us to being born-again?

Logos is not rhema. Logos is not seed. Logos does not indwell us. Logos is not going the be the eternal Father.

[CoreIssue]

Thanks flames,
In Ephesians 5:31) Paul explains that the two shall be one "flesh".
A son, is part father and part mother, so, in the son the father and mother are even more then just figuratively one.




A child does not merge the beings of the father and the mother. Nor is the child the being of the father and mother.

Ephesians is not talking about the relationship or genetic nature of children. It is talking about a man and a woman being joined by a very special relationship.

They are one in relationship but not one being. They still remain two beings.

We, by sharing a special relationship to Christ enter into a singular relationship with him. But we never become Christ.

The answer is in the scripture provided, "they shall be one flesh". Yes they have a special relationship, yes because of this relationship they are "as one", but because of this relationship the "shall be one flesh". You must remember this is a "Great Mystery" in the eyes of Paul, and you think it's answered by saying a couple are holding hands?

Isa. 9:6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.

I don't know that you should be allowed to keep posting if you refuse to answer questions, it is a rule.

[CoreIssue]

Quote:The answer is in the scripture provided, "they shall be one flesh". Yes they have a special relationship, yes because of this relationship they are "as one", but because of this relationship the "shall be one flesh". You must remember this is a "Great Mystery" in the eyes of Paul, and you think it's answered by saying a couple are holding hands?
They became one flesh meaning nature, not being. They remained two distinct beings.

You have God as not only one nature but one being. And that is false.
Quote:Isa. 9:6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.
Not father in the context you are using it. Not Father as in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit!

Christ is the eldest brother of many brothers. He is not the father of the brothers.

Strong's Number: 01 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/browse.cgi?number=1&version=kjv) Original WordWord Originbaa rootTransliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=01&version=kjv#Legend) Entry'abTWOT - 4aPhonetic SpellingParts of Speechawb http://bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=0001h) Noun Masculine Definition
father of an individual
of God as father of his people
head or founder of a household, group, family, or clan
ancestor
grandfather, forefathers -- of person
of people
originator or patron of a class, profession, or art
of producer, generator (fig.)
of benevolence and protection (fig.)
term of respect and honour
ruler or chief (spec.)

Christ is parts 2, 3, 5, 7, 8 and 9. But he is not 1, 4 or 6. Those are the Father in Heaven.

If you had bothered to compare the definition used in the Hebrew in Isaiah with the Greek of the NT about the Father you would have seen the distinction.
Strong's Number: 3962[/FONT] Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/browse.cgi?number=3962&version=kjv) Original WordWord Originpathvrapparently a root wordTransliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3962&version=kjv#Legend) EntryPater5:945,805Phonetic SpellingParts of Speechpat-ayr' http://bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=3962g) Noun Masculine Definition
generator or male ancestor
either the nearest ancestor: father of the corporeal nature, natural fathers, both parents
a more remote ancestor, the founder of a family or tribe, progenitor of a people, forefather: so Abraham is called, Jacob and David
fathers i.e. ancestors, forefathers, founders of a nation
one advanced in years, a senior
metaph.
the originator and transmitter of anything
the authors of a family or society of persons animated by the same spirit as himself
one who has infused his own spirit into others, who actuates and governs their minds
one who stands in a father's place and looks after another in a paternal way
a title of honour
teachers, as those to whom pupils trace back the knowledge and training they have received
the members of the Sanhedrin, whose prerogative it was by virtue of the wisdom and experience in which they excelled, to take charge of the interests of others
God is called the Father
of the stars, the heavenly luminaries, because he is their creator, upholder, ruler
of all rational and intelligent beings, whether angels or men, because he is their creator, preserver, guardian and protector
of spiritual beings and of all men
of Christians, as those who through Christ have been exalted to a specially close and intimate relationship with God, and who no longer dread him as a stern judge of sinners, but revere him as their reconciled and loving Father
the Father of Jesus Christ, as one whom God has united to himself in the closest bond of love and intimacy, made acquainted with his purposes, appointed to explain and carry out among men the plan of salvation, and made to share also in his own divine nature
by Jesus Christ himself
by the apostles]
Quote: I don't know that you should be allowed to keep posting if you refuse to answer questions, it is a rule.


You have been answered many times. I cannot help it if you don't like the answers.

You think I am in the wrong? Then take it up with CTZonEdit.

[TLIR]

The Word of God is his seed, sperm if I may, the Son is the "manifestation" of that seed. The Son, when fully mature is also a tri-unity being.


If I read this correctly then the son will be a separate god from the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit?


He is a Father, with a Word and a Spirit. He is him, his seed is him and his spirit is him.


I think you have missed the truth of the unity of the trinity and the unity of the believer. Making another God out of the son. There can never be but one God.


Adam was created in the image of God:
And God said, "let us" make man in "our" image, and after "our" likeness.
Adam was made, male and female, he had seed in him, that is a tri-unity.

Man is not a tri-unity, we are a tri-part being, spirit, soul, and body.
not tri-unity as in three persons.


The Holy Spirit is the vessel of the Word (seed), it is the female of the God tri-unity.
The vessel for Adam's seed was removed from him, Eve, and Adam planted his seed in her, she bear a child and "in the child" they were a tri-unity again.

I didn't answer each question, I thought this would suffice.

The family unit could be seen as a tri-unity but not in the sense that God is a Trinity.

[TLIR]

I couldn't help my self I saw this post and had to get in to the debate forum.
I haven't seen vagabond around here lately.