legitimate Christian?

[flaja]

Last month I had this email conversation with James Beller of 21tnt.com:

On January 3, 2006 I sent this email to Mr. Beller’s 21tnt.com organization:

Last July I inherited about $40,000 that I would like to devote to the ministry. My first choice would be to establish a partnership with an existing King James Only church so I could open a non-profit college prep school for Christian students in [redacted for privacy]. However, my area has only a few KJVO churches and none of them are willing to seriously talk with me. Most have simply ignored my email, phone calls and personal letters.

I am thinking about setting up the school in a storefront. If I follow this route, I would also like to establish a KJVO church that will have an appreciable social welfare component. Since my background is in biology and history, I do not feel confident that I can serve as a pastor, especially considering that managing the school would take most of my time. Can you direct me to a KJVO pastor that would be willing to re-locate to Florida and take a start-up congregation? Also, any information you can provide regarding organizations that provide financial support to new churches would be most helpful.

Twenty days later, on January 23, I received this email from Mr. Beller in reply:

Bro. [redacted],

The only KJVO church that I know of in [redacted] FL is Liberty Baptist Church in [redacted]. The pastor is [redacted; Beller misspelled the man’s name]. I am going to be with Bro. [redacted] on Fri. March 3 for a leadership briefing for pastors educators homeschoolers and parents. The briefing is "The Coming Destruction of the Baptist People.

Pastor James Beller

I replied the same day with this email:

Hi,

Actually I have located about a half-dozen or so KJVO churches in the area. One of them has 13 acres of land for a congregation of only about 500, but the pastor is not interested because he says the area cannot support another Christian school. A KJVO church in [redacted] says it is too small to warrant having the church ministries I want the school to eventually support (and pay for). Several others either already have schools or they have ignored me after first expressing an interest. Several more simply ignored my email, phone call or personal letter. There is only one pastor that has expressed any real interest in having the school as well as the ministries I want the school to support. But, he has not been interested in having a serious conversation with me or letting me meet his church’s board of trustees. I am trying to keep the line of communication with this pastor open, but I doubt that I will ever be able to work with this church.

I began my effort to open a school in January 1997. In the process I have tried to contact about 250 local churches (not caring about the KJVO issue at the time). Not one single church was willing to offer any help and most wouldn’t even answer their phone. The lack of interest from these churches when the school had to be completely self-supporting was disheartening enough. But, the lack of interest now that I have money to put towards the school is even worse.

I have no respect for any established church in the [redacted] area. They are all either self-centered and self-serving, or they are too small and disorganized to be effective. I desperately want to establish a school and church, but I doubt that my resources are sufficient to the task and I am certainly not qualified to serve as a pastor. I would appreciate any assistance you could provide.

The next day I received this email from Mr. Beller:

Bro. [redacted],

I am guessing most pastors would be troubled by the statement I highlighted in your last message.

If you wanted to started a Baptist Christian day school and you saw the need of beginning under the authority of a local church, no independent Baptist pastor I know would give you authority to "support ministries" of your choosing. The pastor has to pray and decide that.

Why not donate the money to a needy and worthy organization such as the Baptist History Preservation Society. This ministry was begun by Pastor Jeff Faggart. See www.baptisthistorypreservation.com (http://www.baptisthistorypreservation.com/)

Kind regards,
Pastor James Beller

The portion of my previous email, which Mr. Beller had highlighted read, “A KJVO church in [redacted] says it is too small to warrant having the church ministries I want the school to eventually support (and pay for). Several others either already have schools or they have ignored me after first expressing an interest. Several more simply ignored my email, phone call or personal letter. There is only one pastor that has expressed any real interest in having the school as well as the ministries I want the school to support.”

I replied the same day with:

Actually most pastors would be troubled by the idea of having to give up dictatorial control over their congregation. Like I said, my local churches are too self-centered and self-serving to be worthwhile. Let me give you some examples of the ministries the Baptist pastor in [redacted] (I don't know if he is Independent Baptist or not) objects to:

[edited for brevity]
I. Ministry Functions
A. Worship
1. Sunday Morning Worship Service open to the public
2. Wednesday Evening Bible Study open to the public
3. Special occasion worship services for things like weddings and funerals
B. Visitation
1. Home
2. Hospital
3. Nursing Home/Assisted Living Center
C. Prison
D. Internet Radio
E. Print
F. Youth Ministry
1. Weekly Activities
a. Game night
b. Current events discussion
c. Date night
d. Pot luck fundraiser
e. Bible Club
f. Community Volunteer Service
2. Daily Activities
a. Mentoring
3. Monthly activities
a. Spring carnival/bazaar
b. Independence Day cookout
c. Day-trip
d. Guest lecturer/drama presentation
e. Fall carnival/bazaar
f. Bible Club Christmas party

II. Member Services
A. Subscription Library
B. Grocery Co-op
C. Community Garden
D. Faculty Housing

III. Community Services
A. Emergency Housing
B. Housing Rehabilitation

Your reply reminds me of the old joke about a man going to Heaven and being told to be very quiet when he passes the wing that house the Baptists because the Baptists believe they are the only people who made it to Heaven.

I can find no passage in the Bible that supports the idea of giving a pastor absolute control over a congregation. The NT repeatedly presents a picture of churches lead by a plurality of elders, deacons and pastors with no single person having absolute say.

BTW: The only pastor who has expressed any interest in working with me has expressed no objections to ministries I want the school to support is an IFB pastor. I am not particularly attracted to the idea of denominations and I have personal reasons for wanting to avoid the Baptists at all cost. I have investigated various Baptist churches only because of their commitment to the AKJ.

To which Mr. Beller replied (I have not corrected his spelling):

Dear [redacted; Beller misspelled my name and notice how I am no longer his brother],

I can see why pastors ignore you. You are a time wasting idiot. I'll see you at the judgement seat of Christ for wasting not only my time but the time of other men of God. You are the dictitoral tyrant. What a moron.

g-bye.

Which prompted my final email to Mr. Beller:

Sir,

You have not met me in person, and the only thing you know of me is from a few email messages. So I find it difficult to accept as valid your assertion that I am “a time wasting idiot”. But, if your conclusion is valid, are you not obligated, by the God you presume to serve, to offer correction and guidance in hopes that I will mend my ways?

Instead of offering such correction and guidance, you offer insults and a threat of hellfire. So, should I conclude that you are not really a Christian? You offer to condemn me, when Jesus Christ has already given me salvation. Note what He said in Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

I now realize that you are just one more example of a self-serving pastor. I have challenged your world view, namely that pastors should have dictatorial control over their congregations. But, until you can produce Biblical documentation for you view, I must conclude that you are wrong.

Does anyone here believe Beller can be a legitimate man of God? Is he worthy of the office of Pastor?

[CoreIssue]

Does anyone here believe Beller can be a legitimate man of God? Is he worthy of the office of Pastor?
I moved this to the Debate Forum because this is not fellowship or just chat.

Actually, a church is run by Pastor and the Elders at the permission of the members, if it preserves the Bible formula.

Having money does not entitle anyone to tell them what to do.

Funny thing here is that while you are negative on what he told you at the same time you state a KJV Only church, which turns its back on those using any other version.

So, are you a person of God because your would seal out those who reject KJV Only?

Really, I don't know if it applies to you but many in this thinking have become cultic.

Think about it.

[LDinthewoods]

flaja - I hate to say it, and only will because you presented this, but you are way out of line in this.

A big problem I see is that you don't mention at all being led by the Spirit to do what you are wanting to do with this money. You have to ask yourself what is GOD telling you to do with the money. Trust me, if GOD is laying on your heart to give this inheritance away, then He also is laying upon some pastor's heart to use the money for a ministry.

The pastor & the elders are the leaders of a church. Since you are "shopping" around for a church to give the money to - this indicates to me that you are neither a pastor or an elder in their church, and they have every reason to be suspicious of your money & intentions.

Just because you have the money to give does not mean you have the right to stipulate all the things you are requesting of the ministry you are proposing. Besides, while $40K is a good bit of cash, it will certainly not pay for a building or store-front build-out....or even a few month's worth of expenses for the type of ministry you are suggesting. It would be a nice donation for some church who already had a specific ministry planned - through the guidance & direction of the Holy Spirit - and with a Spirit lead pastor & church board at the helm. And if that is the case - you should be comfortable to give the money as a donation and trust in the LORD & the pastor to use the money to advance the kingdom in a way that the LORD needs....not the way you would like to see it done.

I don't think it is appropriate to question the salvation of the pastor who responded to you. Suffice to say, his final response was not Christ-like....but that should be the least of your concern as many of the statements you made certainly don't pass muster either.

Actually most pastors would be troubled by the idea of having to give up dictatorial control over their congregation. Like I said, my local churches are too self-centered and self-serving to be worthwhile. You really have no right to ask any church to give up "dictatorial control" over their congregation. Pastors will have to give an account for their congregations at the Judgment Seat. Large financial donors have no such responsibility for a congregation. The pastor is correct in what he says here: "no independent Baptist pastor I know would give you authority to "support ministries" of your choosing. The pastor has to pray and decide that."


Your reply reminds me of the old joke about a man going to Heaven and being told to be very quiet when he passes the wing that house the Baptists because the Baptists believe they are the only people who made it to Heaven. "Stereo-type" jokes about various religions can be funny in some settings, but you obviously were not using this to lighten the mood. You were having a disagreement with the pastor so then decided to mock his faith with a joke? It seems you were trying to elicit a defensive reaction - so you shouldn't at all be surprised that this is what you got.

I can find no passage in the Bible that supports the idea of giving a pastor absolute control over a congregation. The NT repeatedly presents a picture of churches lead by a plurality of elders, deacons and pastors with no single person having absolute say. Again, you are not the pastor, an elder or even a visitor at this person's church....there is no passage in scripture that tells pastors they should accept any & all donations offered to their church and/or immediately change course or take directions from the donor. Any pastor that would hand over even a small measure of control of their congregation to a complete stranger in exchange for money is not being led by the Spirit & would indeed be foolish in the eye's of GOD.


GOD loves a cheerful giver. He loves a good steward. He also loves a son that will look to Him for direction regarding where to invest money in His kingdom and have faith in His plan for the money. I think you should pray and examine your own reasons for wanting to give this money.

[Chrystalwuzhere]

Hi flaja, welcome to CTZ! :tiphat:

Something I noticed in your posts, flaja, is that you are judging every church in your area as self-serving, self-centered, and dictatorial. If you are basing this upon the fact that they are not KJVO, or because they will not allow you to come in and start a school and various programs, then you are in the wrong. Judging these churches in this manner is above your pay-scale.

You want to start a school with programs? Why? We have so many churches and schools in this country that you can't swing a dead cat without hitting one. At least, in my part of the country, that is. Instead of starting a school, why not go out into the highways, the byways, and hedges, and beckon them to come in. Jesus gave us a great commission, and this we should fulfill. We can even do this on our job, at school (which I try to do), at the grocery store, door to door, etc.

And, why start a KJVO school? That bothers me. Beginning a school that immediately evolves around a version of the Bible is just...well...troubling to me. Instead, please venture out and fulfill the call we are all given... tell others about the Savior.

[eahaddix]

:dukes: :sermon: Ugh . . . No wonder I do not attend a church. All these worldly busybodies grabbing for power are to be avoided (2 Thessalonians 3:6-13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%203:6-13;&version=31;)).

[CoreIssue]

:dukes: :sermon: Ugh . . . No wonder I do not attend a church. All these worldly busybodies grabbing for power are to be avoided (2 Thessalonians 3:6-13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%203:6-13;&version=31;)).

:eek: What ever happened to seeking truth and fellowship?

[eahaddix]

:eek: What ever happened to seeking truth and fellowship?

Hold on a second. As I recall, you have not found a church yet. Are you looking? Are you lacking truth? ;)


:nod: I do not forsake fellowship (ref. Hebrews 10:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%2010:25;&version=31;)). However, fellowship is fellowship, regardless of where fellowship is done (ref. Matthew 18:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2018:20;&version=31;)). And, from my experience, good-hearted people on the streets give better fellowship than the average churchgoer. Moreover, one can find truth without a physical church (ref. John 16:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2016:13;&version=31;)), especially by studying the Scriptures (http://www.biblegateway.com/). This is evidenced by many personal testimonies, where an individual "finds" Christ Jesus without a physical church.

Now, are you planning on appealing to the "no church is perfect" argument?

[LDinthewoods]

Not going to say "no church is perfect"....and I don't think anyone should have to stay at a church that is not being led by the Spirit and is not serving to bring more people to the LORD or advancing the Kingdom. But I do think it is important to keep seeking out a church that has these things. And keep in mind to that when you visit churches....even the "dead" ones.....you may in fact be the instrument GOD will use to bring in renewal to that church.

How will any of our churches be any good if the true, mature Christians stay home?

[CoreIssue]

Hold on a second. As I recall, you have not found a church yet. Are you looking? Are you lacking truth? ;)


:nod: I do not forsake fellowship (ref. Hebrews 10:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%2010:25;&version=31;)). However, fellowship is fellowship, regardless of where fellowship is done (ref. Matthew 18:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2018:20;&version=31;)). And, from my experience, good-hearted people on the streets give better fellowship than the average churchgoer. Moreover, one can find truth without a physical church (ref. John 16:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2016:13;&version=31;)), such as through studing the Scriptures (http://www.biblegateway.com/). This is evidenced by many personal testimonies, where an individual finds God without a physical church.

Now, are you planning on appealing to the "no church is perfect" argument?

You misunderstand. I am talking about churches failing to be places of truth seeking and fellowship.

[CoreIssue]

How will any of our churches be any good if the true, mature Christians stay home?

And why do mature Christians stay home? Because these churches tell them to shut up when they say something. Abide by the doctrines taught and don't question.

[eahaddix]

You misunderstand. I am talking about churches failing to be places of truth seeking and fellowship.

:thumbup2: Gotcha. And I agree.

[Jessie]

to add something else onto that....of what Core said.

the others (besides the leaders) expect you to tow the line or plan on getting treated lower than dirt.

no love.

[eahaddix]

But I do think it is important to keep seeking out a church that has these things. And keep in mind to that when you visit churches....even the "dead" ones.....you may in fact be the instrument GOD will use to bring in renewal to that church.

How will any of our churches be any good if the true, mature Christians stay home?

Today's worldly, materialistically prosperous churches do not want our presence (ref. 2 Timothy 4:3-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy%204:3-4;&version=31;), Revelation 3:14-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%203:14-22;&version=31;)). As a result, we wander the streets for people who will receive us, like wisdom does (Proverbs 1:20-33 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs%201:20-33%20;&version=31;)) and the Apostles did (Matthew 10:11-16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2010:11-16;&version=31;)).

And why do mature Christians stay home? Because these churches tell them to shut up when they say something. Abide by the doctrines taught and don't question.

Agreed. CoreIssue speaks the truth (ref. 1 Timothy 6:3-5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%206:3-5%20;&version=31;), see also 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%206:14-18;&version=31)).

to add something else onto that....of what Core said.

the others (besides the leaders) expect you to tow the line or plan on getting treated lower than dirt.

no love.

Agreed. Jessie speaks the truth (ref. 1 John 4:19-21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%204:19-21%20;&version=31;)).

:): LDinthewoods, I encourage you to express yourself. A dialogue would be edifying (ref. Romans 14:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2014:19;&version=31;)), no?

[LDinthewoods]

I know what all of you are saying...honestly! I have been to these kinds of churches you are talking about. So many that I began to think it was just me....that I was expecting too much or that things have changed & I maybe just needed to get used to it. I bounced around from one church to the next & never felt plugged in anywhere and it is devastating.

The only reason why I encourage people to keep looking is because I finally did walk in to a Bible believing church (only about 6 weeks ago) that is having people get saved every week. They have Sunday & Wednesday night service & people show up and are happy to be there. The kids show up not in clothes like they wear on MTV and the people are kind, warm & welcoming. The spirit moves in our services; the pastor is on fire for the LORD.

Unfortunately, I am only here in CA long enough to sell the house boat I'm currently living on - then I move back to TX to live with my mother, and will have to start all over again trying to find a good church.

But I am thankful that I finally know that the kind of church I need, that we all need, really does exist. It will help me remain hopeful when I start looking again. No longer do I think it is just me!

But in the mean time....while I'm out visiting other churches....I think it is important to make ourselves open to the possibility that the LORD may need us to be the one to go into a dead church. Maybe not to transform the whole church....but maybe we may find one or two people there that are just as confused but are not sure what is wrong. I personally believe we just need to step out in faith, visit churches and pray that the LORD uses us......and go in allowing the Holy Spirit to guide our words & actions to fullfil a need or two in each church we visit.

[CoreIssue]

It shows.

The good churches are rare. And usually very small.

Same with boards. Love fest boards are big, sound doctrine are small.

And those that will actually allow open discussion even smaller.

How do you reach one if you refuse to go where they are.

Like Christ getting criticized for going into the "wrong" place.

[LDinthewoods]

Well - yes, I guess as far as churches go...the one I found is kind of small. The first time I visited was a Sunday night & I counted about 150 people. Then Wed. night service came....and I was surprised to count even more people....not less than the Sunday night service. Of course, the Sunday morning service is just over 200.

Sunday morning is good....that's when most of the visitors get saved. But Sunday & Wednesday nights are best because while 150-ish people is not a lot of people....it is truly a blessing to be in a place with all true brothers & sisters.....not just a bunch of people logging their "church time".



PS - Did I mention this church has several buses that go out into the neighborhood and pick people & kids up for church. They also have "soul-winning" on Saturday where groups of them go out into the neighborhoods & knock on doors.

:lol2: Not trying to brag...it is just quite amazing to find this kind of a church - the right kind of church! It certainly gives me hope....and its what makes me want to encourage others to keep looking.

[eahaddix]

I know what all of you are saying...honestly! I have been to these kinds of churches you are talking about. So many that I began to think it was just me....that I was expecting too much or that things have changed & I maybe just needed to get used to it. I bounced around from one church to the next & never felt plugged in anywhere and it is devastating.

I oppose elevating "church hunting" to a lifetime preoccupation. One can "kill" a lot of time doing this, as opposed to "running the race" we should be "running" (1 Corinthians 9:24-27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%209:24-27;&version=31;)). Sanctification is a personal process imparted by God (1 Thessalonians 5:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Thessalonians%205:23;&version=31;)), thereby leaving the believer with no excuse for spiritual inactivity.

The only reason why I encourage people to keep looking is because I finally did walk in to a Bible believing church (only about 6 weeks ago) that is having people get saved every week. They have Sunday & Wednesday night service & people show up and are happy to be there. The kids show up not in clothes like they wear on MTV and the people are kind, warm & welcoming. The spirit moves in our services; the pastor is on fire for the LORD.

:): I do not doubt that "good churches" exist. If you found a "good church," then I congratulate you.:hug:

But in the mean time....while I'm out visiting other churches....I think it is important to make ourselves open to the possibility that the LORD may need us to be the one to go into a dead church. Maybe not to transform the whole church....but maybe we may find one or two people there that are just as confused but are not sure what is wrong. I personally believe we just need to step out in faith, visit churches and pray that the LORD uses us......and go in allowing the Holy Spirit to guide our words & actions to fullfil a need or two in each church we visit.

I understand your points. Mature believers can be roaming agents of Christ Jesus, even in temporary visits to other churches.

However, while the Lord strengthens all believers (Philippians 4:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians%204:13;&version=31;)), mature believers require fellowship as well (ref. 1 Corinthians 12:12-13, 21-27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2012:12-13,%2021-27;&version=31;), 1 Corinthians 14:26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2014:26%20;&version=31;)), since all believers are social human beings. So, what good is this approach, if mature believers do not receive fellowship as well?

Do not get me wrong, this option does not bother me. I, personally, rely on my wife for fellowship, plus the completion of my strength (ref. Matthew 5:4-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2019:4-6;&version=31;), 1 Corinthians 6:16-17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%206:16-17;&version=31;)). The Spirit's presence is strong in us (ref. 1 Thessalonians 5:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Thessalonians%205:19;&version=31;)), so we compliment each other well. Hence, if I were to attend a church, then she would be right there with me. However, we should remember that many mature Christians do not receive such social support, thereby being rendered "immobile."

Hence, for many mature believers who seek fellowship, church attendance becomes a "the chicken or the egg" dilemma. These believers seek fellowship, yet the average churchgoer requires fellowship before offering fellowship, for varying reasons. So, can you propose another solution to the problem? What about substitutes for fellowship by church attendance, such as private "Bible study" groups or online Christian forums? For instance, the "regulars" on CTZ (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/) genuinely fellowship on a daily basis, which I find impressive.

Well - yes, I guess as far as churches go...the one I found is kind of small. The first time I visited was a Sunday night & I counted about 150 people.

:BigSmile: You call that "small"? I do not use megachurches as a measuring stick.

Sunday morning is good....that's when most of the visitors get saved. But Sunday & Wednesday nights are best because while 150-ish people is not a lot of people....it is truly a blessing to be in a place with all true brothers & sisters.....not just a bunch of people logging their "church time".

:hmm:I have an idea. Would you post a video of this church?

[LDinthewoods]

I am not trying to have an argument about this LuckyStrike. I did not intend to come off sounding like any one should perpetually be in "church hunting" mode. I just don't know how else a person would find a good church if they are not at least visiting some churches in their area. If someone dumped a truckload of coconuts in your front yard & told you that only one of them had $1000 dollars inside....how many would you crack open before you gave up looking for the money?

My point is just to encourage people to know that there are churches out there that are good. I'm not looking for congrats on having found one myself. If you are comfortable only having fellowship with your wife, I'm not trying to talk you out of it. I am single though and live alone....the only good fellowship I get is at church. It has made all the difference in my life & I simply wanted to testify that fact to those of you that are currently not in a good church.

[eahaddix]

I am not trying to have an argument about this LuckyStrike.

:shrug: What is wrong with this discussion? I do not understand people who forsake expanded discussion, especially in light of 1 Thessalonians 5:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Thessalonians%205:21;&version=31;).

I am single though and live alone....the only good fellowship I get is at church. It has made all the difference in my life & I simply wanted to testify that fact to those of you that are currently not in a good church.

Well, everyone does not respond to the unfulfilled need for fellowship like you do. When I was a lonely single, I did not go "church hunting" due to overwhelming shyness. In fact, I resented people who expected me to do so, regardless of my introverted personality. And I guarantee that my case was not unique, especially in light of the shy Christian singles that Christian Student Unions attracted at my college. But, thanks to my wife, I am progressively overcoming my introverted predisposition.


:rolleyes: So, please, do not get impatient with me (ref. Galatians 5:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%205:22;&version=31;)).

[TLIR]

This has been a good discussion. I understand the desire for church attendance and I can sympathize with those who don’t go to a church.
We do have a desire for fellowship, good teaching, and safety from a good church structure. It is true these things are lacking in some, ok a lot of churches. I haven’t had a church I can call home for maybe 15 years. I am still a Christian and I desire the fellowship of that setting. I have for the past few years been meeting in the homes of Christians I have met over the years. They are from various churches and we get together and just be with one another, some times we pray or share scripture but usually we are just there for one another. My neighbors accepted Christ as their savior in one of these get to gathers this New Years Eve. We help each other with what ever need comes up. Although I don’t attend a church and they do. Each of them would like to find a church that we could all be a part of. Part of my problem is my job keeps me working five Sundays out of seven. I don’t need a perfect church. I just want somewhere I can invest my life into. Probably the main thing that prevents me from doing that are the wounds I suffered when the pastor left the last church I was a member of and took all the money, and ran off with another woman. More then anything that is probably my biggest reason and it is not a good one. It would be good to have somewhere that I can refer people when they accept the Lord or when I am asked where do you go to church?
CTZ has been filling in the gap. Thanks to some good brothers and sisters here.

A heartfelt thank you,

Arthur, TLIR

[LDinthewoods]

:shrug: What is wrong with this discussion? I do not understand people who forsake expanded discussion, especially in light of 1 Thessalonians 5:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Thessalonians%205:21;&version=31;).

1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

I already tested my church & proved that it is good. Do you live in Northern California? If you do, you can come to my church & test it for yourself.

There is nothing wrong with discussion, but not everything needs to be a debate. The verse says "prove all things".....which means each person needs to test something for themselves.....it doesn't mean we have to prove it to each other.

Well, everyone does not respond to the unfulfilled need for fellowship like you do. When I was a lonely single, I did not go "church hunting" due to overwhelming shyness. In fact, I resented people who expected me to do so, regardless of my introverted personality. And I guarantee that my case was not unique, especially in light of the shy Christian singles that Christian Student Unions attracted at my college. But, thanks to my wife, I am progressively overcoming my introverted predisposition.I said I am single....I did not say I was lonely. I am not responding to a need for companionship & my church does not have any kind of a singles group. I am going to church in response to "observe the Sabbath" and "do not forsake assembly". Were it not for these commands, I probably wouldn't go to church either. And you may also note that the verse is a general command given to everyone.....not just single people that do not have spouses to fellowship with.


:rolleyes: So, please, do not get impatient with me (ref. Galatians 5:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%205:22;&version=31;)). Seems a little strange that you would roll your eyes at me but then ask me to be patient with you....:lol2:

[LDinthewoods]

This has been a good discussion. I understand the desire for church attendance and I can sympathize with those who don’t go to a church.
We do have a desire for fellowship, good teaching, and safety from a good church structure. It is true these things are lacking in some, ok a lot of churches. I haven’t had a church I can call home for maybe 15 years. I am still a Christian and I desire the fellowship of that setting. I have for the past few years been meeting in the homes of Christians I have met over the years. They are from various churches and we get together and just be with one another, some times we pray or share scripture but usually we are just there for one another. My neighbors accepted Christ as their savior in one of these get to gathers this New Years Eve. We help each other with what ever need comes up. Although I don’t attend a church and they do. Each of them would like to find a church that we could all be a part of. Part of my problem is my job keeps me working five Sundays out of seven. I don’t need a perfect church. I just want somewhere I can invest my life into. Probably the main thing that prevents me from doing that are the wounds I suffered when the pastor left the last church I was a member of and took all the money, and ran off with another woman. More then anything that is probably my biggest reason and it is not a good one. It would be good to have somewhere that I can refer people when they accept the Lord or when I am asked where do you go to church?
CTZ has been filling in the gap. Thanks to some good brothers and sisters here.

A heartfelt thank you,

Arthur, TLIR


I actually considered trying to start a home church group or trying to find maybe a shut-in or other people who also don't have a church to go to before I found this church I go to. I don't think it is a bad idea....especially will become more necessary IMO as the established churches keep moving away from sound doctrine. But in both CA & TX, I live in very populated areas with lots of churches, so its hard for me to believe that there are no sound churches in these areas. I have heard of other much smaller US cities or remote regions that really don't have the kind of options that I have. This is also true for Christians in other countries.

One thing I will not do next time around (when I start looking for a new church in TX) is I will not visit a church more than twice. When I was searching before, I used to keep going in spite of red flags; trying to "give it time", time to meet people, time to be inspired, etc. Now that I know what it is I'm looking for, I will probably only visit any new church once or twice & then move on.

[InTheWind]

I am not trying to have an argument about this LuckyStrike. I did not intend to come off sounding like any one should perpetually be in "church hunting" mode. I just don't know how else a person would find a good church if they are not at least visiting some churches in their area. If someone dumped a truckload of coconuts in your front yard & told you that only one of them had $1000 dollars inside....how many would you crack open before you gave up looking for the money?

My point is just to encourage people to know that there are churches out there that are good. I'm not looking for congrats on having found one myself. If you are comfortable only having fellowship with your wife, I'm not trying to talk you out of it. I am single though and live alone....the only good fellowship I get is at church. It has made all the difference in my life & I simply wanted to testify that fact to those of you that are currently not in a good church.

I`m jumping in late here but i was talking to someone the other day about how fellowship, especially fellowship outside of the church from church members was lacking in my opinion.
All the time my insides were telling me " why don`t you go talk to the paster and see if you can start a outreach program"
Sure there are a lot of bad or lacking churches but they got that way for a reason, some because of bad leadership and some because nobody wants to get involved.
I may take a deeper look at myself and my local church to see if i can make a difference. :nod:

[Jessie]

:shrug: What is wrong with this discussion? I do not understand people who forsake expanded discussion, especially in light of 1 Thessalonians 5:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Thessalonians%205:21;&version=31;).



Well, everyone does not respond to the unfulfilled need for fellowship like you do. When I was a lonely single, I did not go "church hunting" due to overwhelming shyness. In fact, I resented people who expected me to do so, regardless of my introverted personality. And I guarantee that my case was not unique, especially in light of the shy Christian singles that Christian Student Unions attracted at my college. But, thanks to my wife, I am progressively overcoming my introverted predisposition.


:rolleyes: So, please, do not get impatient with me (ref. Galatians 5:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%205:22;&version=31;)).


I'm a introvert too. and am happy your working on yours!
its hard being overwhelmingly shy..

and I fully undertand the feeling that people are pushing us at times.


back to the church situation.
so much of the "Fellowship" was cliches if you did'nt belong,
you did'nt fellowship.

I remember a man many yrs ago. kindof funny looking he started passing the
offering plate at chruch. I dont know but for some reason to this day I remmeber him.
he was different. I dont know how to describe it.
anyhow people treated him differently. he was faithful going to church every sunday,
doing his job. but he was shunned. and he was a very nice person.

so this went of for yrs. I grew up and did'nt come back for many yrs.
well he was still there doing what he was too do.

you know what got me????? there was a potluck I went and knew a couple people my age to sit with, and here he was trying so blasted hard to remain happy. sitting all alone.
no one fellowshiping with him.

NOT ONE PERSON asked this man to sit and eat with them.
so I said something to the people I was with. and I'm sure thats not the first or the last time it happened.

so, I talked to the pastors wife.
very strange talk....
she said, well, people can only help so much.
and went on to something else.

I think t he man was shy. of course he had his own problems but hey who does'nt?

it was just cruel. mean and thoughtless.
of course they were'nt gonna change this mans life, but ....
ust for a moment he could have felt like he belonged.
and this was with Gods people.

I just dont get it. all the people busy little bees working for God?
and here one of their own needs a bit more attn. and it grips their backside.

and plenty of abuses on me too, I am leery of going back,
its rather pointless.

[PrayzHim]

I for one have seen too many church groups shun people who weren't in there "cliche". Then you have the small groups that the church is trying to commercialize, setting rules and guidelines for fellowship/meeting. Even going as far as "monitoring". What ever happened to groups of people meeting to fellowship and learn the word without the "legalism" of their church?

[eahaddix]

There is nothing wrong with discussion, but not everything needs to be a debate.

However, without discussion or debate, ideas do not get tested.

The verse says "prove all things".....which means each person needs to test something for themselves.....it doesn't mean we have to prove it to each other.

No. As soon as you publicly advocate ideas, other believers have the right to test your ideas.

I am going to church in response to "observe the Sabbath"[...]

Hold on a second. Where does New Testament Scripture command believers to keep the Sabbath? Moreover, how do you deal with Colossians 2:6-23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians%202:6-23%20;&version=31;)?

Colossians 2 [NIV]
13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

*See also Ephesians 2:14-16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%202:14-16;&version=31;), Romans 10:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2010:4;&version=31;), Romans 7:1-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%207:1-6;&version=31;), Romans 8:3-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208:3-4%20;&version=31;), and Romans 6:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%206:15%20;&version=31;).

And how do you deal with Romans 14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2014;&version=31;)?

Roman 14 [NIV]
5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord.

Now, you can point out that the Apostles gathered regularly on the Sabbath. However, this historical norm does not evidence an explicit requirement, especially in light of Galatians 2:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%202:21;&version=31;).

[...]and "do not forsake assembly".

How do you get "go to church" out of "do not forsake assembly"? "Assembly," or episunagoge (Strong's #1997) (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1997) (ref. Hebrews 10:25 (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=Hebrews+10%3A25&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na)), could refer to "gathering together" in any shape or size, as opposed to entire community gatherings proper.

Were it not for these commands, I probably wouldn't go to church either. And you may also note that the verse is a general command given to everyone.....not just single people that do not have spouses to fellowship with.

;) Ah, I suspected that this viewpoint was your impetus (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/impetus) for replying to this thread.

Seems a little strange that you would roll your eyes at me but then ask me to be patient with you....:lol2:

:wink: This is backwards reasoning. I should be asking, "Why did you get impatient to begin with?"

[CoreIssue]

A lot of good things have been said here but some seem to feel pushed into defensive corners for their stances.

So, see if this can kind of bring it all together.
1. Except for the absolute foundational doctrines that define the minimums of being a Christian, churches should be open to discussions on beliefs at all levels. That produces more wise and understanding Christians.
2. One should always be open to having a doctrine challenged.
3. But, at the same time, it should not be pushed to the point where everyone is on guard all the time, except where gross doctrinal error is present. But even there correction and discussion needs to be loving.
4. We can fellowship and not agree on every little point.
5. But, we should not allow the big points to remain standing, which does not mean battle at every meeting.
6. We should share the desire to acheive the purest doctrine we can.
7. The only membership requirement should be that of being saved. Which is a judgment call.
8. Requiring specific doctrines is devisive and belittling to fellow Christians. It does not give opportunity for the weak to grow and gives cover to the egos that needed deflated.

In otherwords, a good church accepts all Christians as members, is willing to discuss and grow, does not tolerate gross error while not picking each other apart over every little thing.

Not perfectly said but I believe that gives the jest of what I mean.

Personally, I have found less than handful of churches that think this way.

[eahaddix]

I'm a introvert too. and am happy your working on yours!
its hard being overwhelmingly shy..

and I fully undertand the feeling that people are pushing us at times.

This characterizes my life. God has called me to an extrovert's job, yet my introvertedness continues to consume me. Such irony puts me to the flames!

back to the church situation.
so much of the "Fellowship" was cliches if you did'nt belong,
you did'nt fellowship.

I remember a man many yrs ago. kindof funny looking he started passing the
offering plate at chruch. I dont know but for some reason to this day I remmeber him.
he was different. I dont know how to describe it.
anyhow people treated him differently. he was faithful going to church every sunday,
doing his job. but he was shunned. and he was a very nice person.

so this went of for yrs. I grew up and did'nt come back for many yrs.
well he was still there doing what he was too do.

you know what got me????? there was a potluck I went and knew a couple people my age to sit with, and here he was trying so blasted hard to remain happy. sitting all alone.
no one fellowshiping with him.

NOT ONE PERSON asked this man to sit and eat with them.
so I said something to the people I was with. and I'm sure thats not the first or the last time it happened.

so, I talked to the pastors wife.
very strange talk....
she said, well, people can only help so much.
and went on to something else.

I think t he man was shy. of course he had his own problems but hey who does'nt?

it was just cruel. mean and thoughtless.
of course they were'nt gonna change this mans life, but ....
ust for a moment he could have felt like he belonged.
and this was with Gods people.

Jessie, this is stomach turning. Believers destroying believers, with the love of God absent. This is a sight that one simply stares at in sadness.

Do you know more about this man? Did you talk to him?

I just dont get it. all the people busy little bees working for God?

Yes, this sounds like the average useless busybody. Paul warned us to avoid such people (2 Thessalonians 3:6-13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%203:6-13;&version=31;)).

[eahaddix]

I for one have seen too many church groups shun people who weren't in there "cliche". Then you have the small groups that the church is trying to commercialize, setting rules and guidelines for fellowship/meeting. Even going as far as "monitoring". What ever happened to groups of people meeting to fellowship and learn the word without the "legalism" of their church?

:nod: Good question.

[CoreIssue]

One thing that needs to be avoided here is the condemnation of all churches.

We don't way to drive people away from seeking churches but we want them to seek healthy ones.

A daunting task.

[InTheWind]

One thing that needs to be avoided here is the condemnation of all churches.

We don't way to drive people away from seeking churches but we want them to seek healthy ones.

A daunting task.

I agree fully, we are the light, put the light under a basket and the light goes out.

[InTheWind]

My point being, say ya have a church with 20 members, five of them are born again. If the five born again leave the church there is no hope for change.
On the other hand if there is no acceptance of suggestions and change definitely get out and seek another.

[LDinthewoods]

However, without discussion or debate, ideas do not get tested.



No. As soon as you publicly advocate ideas, other believers have the right to test your ideas.



Hold on a second. Where does New Testament Scripture command believers to keep the Sabbath? Moreover, how do you deal with Colossians 2:6-23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians%202:6-23%20;&version=31;)?

Colossians 2 [NIV]
13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

*See also Ephesians 2:14-16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%202:14-16;&version=31;), Romans 10:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2010:4;&version=31;), Romans 7:1-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%207:1-6;&version=31;), Romans 8:3-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208:3-4%20;&version=31;), and Romans 6:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%206:15%20;&version=31;).

And how do you deal with Romans 14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2014;&version=31;)?

Roman 14 [NIV]
5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord.

Now, you can point out that the Apostles gathered regularly on the Sabbath. However, this historical norm does not evidence an explicit requirement, especially in light of Galatians 2:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%202:21;&version=31;).



How do you get "go to church" out of "do not forsake assembly"? "Assembly," or episunagoge (Strong's #1997) (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1997) (ref. Hebrews 10:25 (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=Hebrews+10%3A25&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na)), could refer to "gathering together" in any shape or size, as opposed to entire community gatherings proper.



;) Ah, I suspected that this viewpoint was your impetus (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/impetus) for replying to this thread.



:wink: This is backwards reasoning. I should be asking, "Why did you get impatient to begin with?"

LuckyStrike - Go back & look at my first post in #8. I agreed that there are many bad churches out there & that no one should stay in a bad church. And the only reason I said it was important to keep seeking out a good church is because I have found one & it has been an enormous blessing to me. Now if that is your idea of "publicly advocating a position" which then gives you the right to slice, dice & splay open under a microscope all of my intentions & beliefs then remind me to never bid you "good morning" or something really controversial like "have a great weekend".

Not once did I indicate that going to church was a requirement for Christians. I only mentioned the "not forsaking assembly" because I truly do not believe that means only "assembling" with your wife. If all married Christian couples stayed home & only assembled with their spouses, where would that leave the rest of us single people, widows & orphans? And how do you then explain the other verses in the NT that specify positions in the church belonging to married men with well behaved children, etc.? I explained in an earlier post....I know that some people can only meet in home churches and even in hiding or in the middle of the night in some countries. I do not believe the American style church is the only way to assemble. But however that has to happen, I still think we need to assemble together as believers for instruction or edification....not just go off on our own.

Remembering the Sabbath & keeping it holy is one of the 10 commandments...which indicates to me that one day a week, we all need to be doing something different than we do every other day of the week. Now you can argue all you want about not being under the law, but we are still supposed to follow the commandments even if they will not be used to convict us on the day of judgment. The LORD gave us the law not just to trap sinners but because the law is good and are truly the rules He wants everyone to live by. The only reason the world was offered grace is because GOD knows that there is no one that can keep the whole law. That doesn't mean we should stop trying after receiving the gift of grace.


Initially in this thread, you expressed some negative (but valid) opinions about the type of churches that all of us have been to at some point. Again, my only intention was to give my own testimony & encourage others to keep looking. Obviously I wrongly assumed that everyone was currently looking and would actually like to find a good church. If I had any idea you were primed for battle, I would have just skipped the thread & moved on.


I'm done playing now....

[CoreIssue]

Again, my only intention was to give my own testimony & encourage others to keep looking.

And one that is appreciated.

[eahaddix]

One thing that needs to be avoided here is the condemnation of all churches.

We don't way to drive people away from seeking churches but we want them to seek healthy ones.

A daunting task.

I wholeheartedly agree. However, the phrase "go to church" is misleading, since all believers compose the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13, 27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2012:13,%2027;&version=31;), Romans 12:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2012:5;&version=31;), 1 Corinthians 10:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2010:17;&version=31;)), which is the Church (Ephesians 5:22-33 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%205:22-33;&version=31;), Colossians 1:18, 24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians%201:18,%2024;&version=31;), Ephesians 1:22-23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%201:22-23;&version=31;)).

So, if I "go to church," then do I "go to myself"? :whacky40:

[eahaddix]

Now if that is your idea of "publicly advocating a position" which then gives you the right to slice, dice & splay open under a microscope all of my intentions & beliefs then remind me to never bid you "good morning" or something really controversial like "have a great weekend".

Now, what is loosing your temper accomplishing? The Lord searches our minds and hearts daily (1 Chronicles 28:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Chronicles%2028:9;&version=31;), Psalm 7:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%207:9;&version=31;), Jeremiah 17:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah%2017:10;&version=31;), Romans 8:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208:27;&version=31;), Revelation 2:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%202:23;&version=31;)), so why should you not be prepared for such "slicing, dicing, [and] splaying" (ref. Malachi 3:2-3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Malachi%203:2-3;&version=31;) + 1 Peter 5:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%202:5;&version=31;))? You do not spiritually grow by demanding not to be challenged, especially on debate forums.

Not once did I indicate that going to church was a requirement for Christians. I only mentioned the "not forsaking assembly" because I truly do not believe that means only "assembling" with your wife.

You are contradicting yourself. After you deny establishing any requirements, you immediately begin disputing what I do.

If all married Christian couples stayed home & only assembled with their spouses, where would that leave the rest of us single people, widows & orphans? And how do you then explain the other verses in the NT that specify positions in the church belonging to married men with well behaved children, etc.?

This is a good point. However, you are using this good point to erect a strawman argument. I never said everyone should stay at home.

Remembering the Sabbath & keeping it holy is one of the 10 commandments...which indicates to me that one day a week, we all need to be doing something different than we do every other day of the week. Now you can argue all you want about not being under the law, but we are still supposed to follow the commandments even if they will not be used to convict us on the day of judgment. The LORD gave us the law not just to trap sinners but because the law is good and are truly the rules He wants everyone to live by.

What happened to "living by the Spirit"? If the Spirit writes God's laws on our hearts and minds (Hebrews 10:12-17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%2010:12-17;&version=31;)), then do we not focus on "staying in step with the Spirit" (Galatians 5:16-25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%205:16-25;&version=31;)), as opposed to empty, cold legalism?

Again, my only intention was to give my own testimony & encourage others to keep looking.

This is incorrect. If one reviews post #8 (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=9842&postcount=8) and post #14 (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=9852&postcount=14), one observes that you encouraged church attendance with arguments of personal responsibility.

If I had any idea you were primed for battle, I would have just skipped the thread & moved on.


I'm done playing now....

Hold on a second. Do you consider personal Bible study "work"? The truth sets us free (ref. John 8:32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%208:32;&version=31;)), so why should we not be hungry for truth? You are confusing my zeal for truth with bellicosity.

[LDinthewoods]

I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing.

Night.

[Jessie]

This characterizes my life. God has called me to an extrovert's job, yet my introvertedness continues to consume me. Such irony puts me to the flames!



Jessie, this is stomach turning. Believers destroying believers, with the love of God absent. This is a sight that one simply stares at in sadness.

Do you know more about this man? Did you talk to him?



Yes, this sounds like the average useless busybody. Paul warned us to avoid such people (2 Thessalonians 3:6-13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%203:6-13;&version=31;)).

when you say believers destroying believers, that is the story of my life.
and this poor man had obviously the same problem. its like being a fish outta water.
why people do this is beyond me...

I am very impresed at your empathy! I tell you most do not have any or little.
I did not talk to him. at the potluck I told my friends "hey hes alone" so they invited him over. I was told since I was married to not talk to him one on one I was young then,
cause he might get the wrong impression. now....looking back I wish I had of talked to him anyhow.

my heart hurts for him. I know hes still at it. and getting the same
rejection. that is if hes still alive. I think he is. please everyone pray for him,
I dont even know the mans name.

I have always had this problem of when I see something most people just shrug it off and move right along. ignoring it all.

People just expect people to CHANGE well I think that its more complex than that!
that they just do this so they dont have to slow it down and get their hands dirty.

and Core, I agree.

you know before I came to this board I had no one to help me.
many here have seen my problems they did'nt put me down, but worked with me.
and worked with me....sometimes me asking the same questions over and over.
but in patience. Its the first time in my life I ever "belonged".

those of you here are a very rare jewel!
your real.

[eahaddix]

People just expect people to CHANGE well I think that its more complex than that!
that they just do this so they dont have to slow it down and get their hands dirty.

This statement hits the nail on the head. Disingenuous churchgoers invoke superficial platitudes to avoid this dirt.

I am very impresed at your empathy! I tell you most do not have any or little.
I did not talk to him. at the potluck I told my friends "hey hes alone" so they invited him over. I was told since I was married to not talk to him one on one I was young then,
cause he might get the wrong impression. now....looking back I wish I had of talked to him anyhow.

my heart hurts for him. I know hes still at it. and getting the same
rejection. that is if hes still alive. I think he is. please everyone pray for him,
I dont even know the mans name.

I have always had this problem of when I see something most people just shrug it off and move right along. ignoring it all.

:investig: I will pray for this man. I wish I would meet this man at the right time.

you know before I came to this board I had no one to help me.
many here have seen my problems they did'nt put me down, but worked with me.
and worked with me....sometimes me asking the same questions over and over.
but in patience. Its the first time in my life I ever "belonged".

those of you here are a very rare jewel!
your real.

:investig: I will continue to pray for you.

[TLIR]

This started out as a good discussion but some how evolved into an argumentative debate.

[InTheWind]

I would like to add that nothing on this earth is perfect, God says we are to gather together to fellowship and i believe the church is a place intended for that purpose. Is every church perfect no and neither are we, anyone can find fault in anything.
Some churches are obviously way off base scripturally, some are close but error in a few things so can ya go and ignore the few things that you don`t agree with, i would think that the gathering of fellow brothers and sisters in friendship and love should be the first then some differences can be discussed in a bible study or private discussion.
If the only reason a person is not attending church is because they don`t agree with every view the church has their making a mistake IMO.

[InTheWind]

And one that is appreciated.

I`ll second that. :nod:

[TLIR]

I would like to add that nothing on this earth is perfect, God says we are to gather together to fellowship and i believe the church is a place intended for that purpose. Is every church perfect no and neither are we, anyone can find fault in anything.
Some churches are obviously way off base scripturally, some are close but error in a few things so can ya go and ignore the few things that you don`t agree with, i would think that the gathering of fellow brothers and sisters in friendship and love should be the first then some differences can be discussed in a bible study or private discussion.
If the only reason a person is not attending church is because they don`t agree with every view the church has their making a mistake IMO.

ITW, with wisdom agian:tiphat:

[Jessie]

I agree that none is perfect. its the lack of love for me that was a big thing.:swoon:

I liken it to, a person seeing another fall down and cant get up
the other does'nt give a hand up and just walks on saying
"well, it was your own fault"...

I've just seen so much of this I dont know what to think.:scratch:

in their coldness many have just faded out of sight.:(

I know this will happen, like ITW said not one is perfect,
but so much of it going on? that bothers me.:scratch:


but maybe what I'm talking about here is not what you meant ITW.

I agree with what you said!:nod:

and hey I got smilies!:yowza:

[TLIR]

I agree that none is perfect. its the lack of love for me that was a big thing.:swoon:

I liken it to, a person seeing another fall down and cant get up
the other doesn't give a hand up and just walks on saying
"well, it was your own fault"...

I've just seen so much of this I don't know what to think.:scratch:

in their coldness many have just faded out of sight.:(

I know this will happen, like ITW said not one is perfect,
but so much of it going on? that bothers me.:scratch:


but maybe what I'm talking about here is not what you meant ITW.

I agree with what you said!:nod:

and hey I got smilies!:yowza:

You are right Jessie. The love of many are lacking. It is up to us as individuals to love as Christ loved us. That is a tall order but it starts with each individual.
In spite of all we may attempt to do we will invariably fall short and someone will be hurt by our own actions. But we press on and try to do better. God sees the heart.:nod:

[LDinthewoods]

This started out as a good discussion but some how evolved into an argumentative debate.
I'm sorry for this. I am not arguing about it any more.

[InTheWind]

I'm sorry for this. I am not arguing about it any more.

I see no reason for anyone to apologize,we all have our opinions and this is a debate board but also a fellowship board.
Debate can get a little tense and that`s why i generally stay out of it, but we are also supposed to test scripture to see if it`s correct.
There is a fine line in all this, on one hand we seek truth and debate to find it, then on the other hand we have to take under consideration what Jesus teaches about love and caring about others feelings and respect.
I don`t attend a church because of health reasons, my condition makes it hard for me to attend any public get tog ethers but if i was able i would search high and low until i found a church i was comfortable with even if it meant driving 50 miles to get there. To me fellowship is very important and that`s why i continue to search for it.
My wish is to find fellowship in a motorcycle ministry and then maybe attending a church service with my riding brothers and sisters.
To me the church issue is simple, it`s no different than buying a car, if you don`t like the way it handles trade it in and find another, to continue driving it would just make you more unhappy and probably be hard on the car because you would take your frustration out on it.
Lets all talk about this issue or any other in friendship with total respect for others feelings, if that is done i don`t know how it can go wrong. :):

[eahaddix]

If the only reason a person is not attending church is because they don`t agree with every view the church has their making a mistake IMO.

If a person willingly submits themselves to a church, then is this person not accountable for the church, as part of the church?

Do not get me wrong, I have no problem surveying different churches as a "permanent guest." But I believe that "membership" creates accountability issues.

[InTheWind]

If i`m understanding the question my answer would be i wouldn`t become a member until i was certain i liked the church.

[Jessie]

If a person willingly submits themselves to a church, then is this person not accountable for the church, as part of the church?

Do not get me wrong, I have no problem surveying different churches as a "permanent guest." But I believe that "membership" creates accountability issues.

I dont care for "memberships" cause they always have mans rules in them.

To me if I was a permenant guest I would consider myself accountable to the people there in spite of the fact that I did'nt have a peice of paper saying I belonged.

[eahaddix]

To me if I was a permenant guest I would consider myself accountable to the people there in spite of the fact that I did'nt have a peice of paper saying I belonged.

Could you expand upon this point?

[Jessie]

I dont think we need a "membership" to be accountable to the body of a church.

[eahaddix]

:): No, I understood that point, which is an interesting one. What I meant was: At what point does accountability begin and end?

:hmm:I always saw accountability as a voluntary act, which began as soon as one mentally identified themselves with the church. But, if one remains "an observer," then accountability does not apply.

[Sid]

I hate to tell the OPer but in today's world $40K is chump change.

. . . if he could add about 3 more zeros to that sum, he would get some interest and respect.

[Jessie]

:): No, I understood that point, which is an interesting one. What I meant was: At what point does accountability begin and end?

:hmm:I always saw accountability as a voluntary act, which began as soon as one mentally identified themselves with the church. But, if one remains "an observer," then accountability does not apply.

maybe I'm not understanding you.
are you thinking for accountablilty one has to have a membership?
like adhering to the "churches" rules?

I dont think if ones goes to a church for a period of time and its obvious they are staying that they would be considered a observer.

if one is a professing Christian they are open to accountability from other Christians.
no need to be a "member" of a particular church.

did the early church have people sign a list of rules to be a member?
and when did this come about?

I guess if I was a regular in a church I would consider myself a member although not applying for membership. did that make any sense?

[CoreIssue]

I hate to tell the OPer but in today's world $40K is chump change.

. . . if he could add about 3 more zeros to that sum, he would get some interest and respect.
Yep.

Sure won't do that list.