Prosperity or Con?

[Chrystalwuzhere]

Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:42 am by CoreIssue.

Note: The first 14 posts in this thread were copied over from the old board by Chrystalwuzhere.


If the "Health, Wealth and Prosperity" "Gospel" such as Copeland, Hinn, Swaggart and so on preach is true, why are the only ones getting rich from it are such as Copeland, Hinn Swaggart and so on?

Why are these people sucking so much money out of the donations to live such hedonistic life styles if they are followers of Christ?

Why are they asking those in financial crisis to give their last bucks to them instead of giving some of their wealth to help those in financial crisis?

These people are going to have a lot to answer for when they stand before Christ. I personally am convinced they will be among those who plead all the did for Christ but are told they never were his.

[Chrystalwuzhere]

I agree.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?


Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[Chrystalwuzhere]

To me the prosperity message is not about being rich. But it is about knowing your needs are supplied by God.

It involves trusting him. Not worrying about tomorrow. Growing in that knowledge, and trusting God, until you can help others do the same.

That is prosperity.

If I can trust God in a situation and I can encourage you to trust God in your situation that is sowing and reaping.

Do I believe in the principle? Yes.

Has the message been perverted? Yes.

Does that make the message of the devil? No.

Because a few fail, does that mean I abandon the cause? No.

I press on, so that Christ may have the preeminence. I want to prosper spiritually to glorify God.

I also want to prosper financially so I can help those who are in financial poverty because, God wants to help those in need. That will glorify God.
Don’t throw out the message because a few, or one, or anyone, misuses the truth.

Satan misused the truth in the garden; he twisted it until it was a perversion of what God had said.

God has always blessed those who were right with him. Be right with him, and his blessings will over take you.

[Chrystalwuzhere]

God has always blessed those who were right with him. Be right with him, and his blessings will over take you.

I`m afraid i have to disagree, God will bless you if it`s His will not just because a person asks.

My mother was poor when she died and her prayers for healing and blessings were not answered in this life but i know they were answered in heaven.

The prosperity teachers make it sound like it`s a guarantee that everyone that believes will receive and that is not true and most of them ask for money, why don`t they want to give this wonderful message for free?
I believe all things are possible if it`s Gods will but we can not use the HS to get what we want any time we want and that`s what most of those teachers teach.

[Chrystalwuzhere]

God indeed promises health, wealth and prosperity.

But the failure of the teachings of these men and those who adhere to it so strongly is that they expect it in this earthly flesh.

And in connection with this they fail to pay attention to another Biblical principle concerning this issues. That being were are told not to lay up earthly treasures, for they perish and are lost. But to lay them up in Heaven where they will never be lost.

That is why when God helps us on this earth it is called blessings. They aid us here but end when we leave.

And why what we earn from God for working for him are called rewards, and we don't see on scrap of a reward until we are resurrected and with them. They last for eternity.

If the way these men taught these principles were true then the Bible would be loaded with millionaire prophets, apostles and saints. But it is not. The millionaires of the Bible inherited it or earned it at jobs.

Of course God wants us to be blessed. But he will not bless us in violation of freewill, either ours or others. Nor will be bless us if the blessing would prove destructive in our heads and hearts.

Christ died poor. Living off the gifts of others. So did the Apostles. Prophets lived in caves and in the homes of other quite often.

So, God does bless and does reward. But the message held to by those into a "Prosperity Gospel" is a perverted message, from the most earnest to these con artists.

Experienced based Christianity is not a substitute for Biblical teachings. And Charismatic, Pentecostal, WoF and such are experienced based over Bible. When experience, such as tongues as evidence, prosperity, health and so on become the signs of wonders of ones spirituality, understanding and so on much is lost, not gained, as this thinking has its adherents believe.

The people I know, who have real gifts from God, well beyond tongues, reject this thinking and know what is presented as tongues is not tongues.

[Chrystalwuzhere]

God supplies our basic needs. Matt. 6:25-34. There's nothing inherently wrong with being wealthy, so long as our heart is not with our "treasures" and we do not serve money instead of God (Matt. 6:19-21, 24).

It's hard for the wealthy to enter the kingdom of God. Mark 10:23. Nevertheless, while I find the above-mentioned preachers' messages erroneous and their lavish lifestyles distasteful, I think judging their souls violates the prohibition against judging others. Matt. 7:1-5.

[Chrystalwuzhere]

I think judging their souls violates the prohibition against judging others. Matt. 7:1-5.

We are instructed to test things to be sure they are from God and use Discernment, we are judging the teaching of these people not their souls that only God knows.

[Chrystalwuzhere]

God supplies our basic needs. Matt. 6:25-34. There's nothing inherently wrong with being wealthy, so long as our heart is not with our "treasures" and we do not serve money instead of God (Matt. 6:19-21, 24).


I fully agree.

It's hard for the wealthy to enter the kingdom of God. Mark 10:23.

Yes. Their god is often wealth.

Nevertheless, while I find the above-mentioned preachers' messages erroneous and their lavish lifestyles distasteful, I think judging their souls violates the prohibition against judging others. Matt. 7:1-5.


Yes...and no.

Mat 7 is dealing with issues of saint to saint. It says the context is "brother." Where there is no reason not accept that another is a saint, meaning we are judging them saved.

If it applied to all persons then we would not be able to preach to the lost, which we are commanded to. Since preaching to them as lost means we are judging them lost.

Is we do not hold them as saints to begin with then the Matthew 7 issues do not apply.

We judge the spiritual conditions of others all the time. Like it or not. Just as the Apostles judged people saints and lost in their letters.

When you get into the messages deeply you see many of these men preach a different Christ, a different salvation and so on. Their fruit is totally rotten.

While true only God knows, we are also told that we are to treat those who will not listen to sound correction as lost.

[Chrystalwuzhere]

I think judging their souls violates the prohibition against judging others. Matt. 7:1-5.

We are instructed to test things to be sure they are from God and use Discernment, we are judging the teaching of these people not their souls that only God knows.

The first two posts in this thread implied these preachers would not enter Heaven. To imply such is to judge their souls.

[Chrystalwuzhere]

The first two posts in this thread implied these preachers would not enter Heaven. To imply such is to judge these preachers' souls.

I said that and hold to it.

Nowhere does the Bible say or imply there are not some we cannot know if they are not saved. Or strongly suggest they are not.

There is a total void of what Christ taught in those type preachers. They even go so far as to say God died, went to Hell, suffered for sins and rose a resurrected man whom the Father made a god, not God. And that we will raise gods equal to Christ.

There are some who have been drawn into this movement and error. But they never embrace all the teachings of these men.

And look at these preachers. They were never out of this error. They have embraced it from the beginning.

Really. Paul and Christ would not talk about false teachers and Christs rising in the last days if we were incapable of recognizing them and judging them for what they are.

This thinking causes people to think cult founders such as Smith, Moon and more might be saved as well. After all, we are not to judge. Right?

There is no command in the Bible that says we are not to judge the salvation of those into gross error. Their fruits speak for themselves.

We can disagree on this. And probably will continue to do so. But judge no one is not to be found in the Bible. That is error since we are told to judge those in the church, not those outside, and to judge rightly, which demands we first judge who is Church and who is not.

When in doubt treat them like saints, until the prove otherwise.

[Chrystalwuzhere]

CoreIssue, what you're saying is it's okay to judge someone as unsaved so long as we've judged him/her as unsaved. ;)

[Chrystalwuzhere]

CoreIssue, what you're saying is it's okay to judge someone as unsaved so long as we've judged him/her as unsaved. ;-) :scratch: I don't know how to judge that statement!

[Chrystalwuzhere]

CoreIssue, I wrote the post immediately above this one in response to
your 2/1/06 7:16 a.m. post. I write this post in response to your 2/1/06 2:04 p.m. post.

Thank you for discussing those preachers' false teachings. I feel much more comfortable reading why you think they are false teachers than reading simply that you think they are unsaved.

[Chrystalwuzhere]

CoreIssue, what you're saying is it's okay to judge someone as unsaved so long as we've judged him/her as unsaved. ;) :scratch: I don't know how to judge that statement!
I'm sorry my post was confusing. :-P I think part of the problem is we are posting over each other.

My interpretation of your 7:16 a.m. post was we can judge someone unsaved if he/she is not our brother/sister. Someone we think is not our brother/sister is someone we think is (or judge to be) unsaved. Thus, we can judge someone unsaved if we judge he/she is unsaved.

By the way, I write these posts with love and affection and not with a harsh heart. :-)

[Chrystalwuzhere]

CoreIssue, what you're saying is it's okay to judge someone as unsaved so long as we've judged him/her as unsaved. ;) :scratch: I don't know how to judge that statement!

I'm sorry my post was confusing. :-P I think part of the problem is we are posting over each other.
That would explain it.
My interpretation of your 7:16 a.m. post was we can judge someone unsaved if he/she is not our brother/sister. Someone we think is not our brother/sister is someone we think is (or judge to be) unsaved. Thus, we can judge someone unsaved if we judge he/she is unsaved.

Right, I think.

To be our brother and sister in the Biblical context we are using means we judged them saved.

There is no way around it. The Biblical commands and issues given in the NT demands we first my either judge one saved or give them the benefit of the doubt. And to follow commands regarding the unsaved further means we must judge them unsaved or doubt them saved.

I know that confuses the judge not crowd. But it is Biblical.

As with casting the first stone. Horribly abused passage.

It does not say one must be sinless to cast the stone. It was statement that put the Jews to shame because they were getting ready to stone her for violation of Mosaic Law when they at that very moment were violating Mosaic Law by not having the man there to be stoned with her.

By the way, I write these posts with love and affection and not with a harsh heart. :-)

Never thought otherwise.