1 Cor.15)

[CoreIssue]

Note: The first 22 posts here are reposts from the old board by CoreIssue.

Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 6:39 pm by Vagabond
What is this chapter talking about?
I would most certainly conclude that it's talking about "death and resurrection".

From verse 3-22, Paul is proclaiming that christ died for our sins, that he was buried, and rose again.

From verse 23-28, it talks about the order of the resurrected,

From 31-34 he's rebuking those who don't believe in the resurrection.

From 35-50, he's showing "how the dead are raised and with what body they are raised".

From 50-54 He is revealing a mystery of how we also shall be changed from one form to another,

From 55-56) he is showing how and what prophesy is being fulfilled.
In summary:
1 Cor. 15, Paul is explaining about death and resurrection, he explains how a seed goes in the ground and dies, yet it comes up with a new body. He explains there are four different types of flesh, and that there is also heavenly and earthy bodies. He goes on to explain that that which is first is earthy and which comes after is the heavenly. He explains that though we now bear image of the first, we shall aslo bear image of the second. He goes on even to say, "we shall not all sleep", but we shall all be changed, for this corruptible form must put on an incorruptible form. Then shall come to past the saying, "death is swallowed up in victory".
In the midst of all of these wonderful explainations he throws in something about the first Adam and the last Adam, which he later calls the second Adam. Now then, when I look at this, in the context of what it's saying, I see the first Adam, the one before the fall, as the seed form of the second (last) Adam which was raised a quickened spirit. All of us died when the first Adam died, therefore all of us were raised when the second Adam (which is the Lord from heaven) was raised.

Also, I see, not just when the rapture will happen, but what the rapture is!

Based on this doctrine:
Quote:People are the soil. God's word is planted in them. If they are open to it then they are good soil and his word grows. They they are not open they are bad soil and it can never take root.

I can explain the rapture, what it really is,
the two witnesses,
the first and the last,
the lake of fire,
and many other major teachings.

But first, 1 Cor. 15) what it's really saying.

[CoreIssue]

This Adam is seed nonsense as you are espousing it is not Biblical.

You have yet to offer a single verse supporting this declaration. Adam is never called seed anything.

And you took my statement on the farmer parable and perverted it into something I never said nor intended.

You are not a literalist. You spiritualize everything. Which means you can prove nothing and want people to just accept the wisdom of your prophetic utterances.

Yep. Personal Revelation is the proper Forum for your statements.

[CoreIssue]

This Adam is seed nonsense as you are espousing it is not Biblical.
You have yet to offer a single verse supporting this declaration. Adam is never called seed anything.

So, the Apostle Paul, after writing 1 Cor. 15 would have been given his own person revelation column?
You accuse me of not answering questions, not using scriptures, I've flooded you with them and now you are running, scrambling, and trying to shut the jack ass up.
A seed goes into the ground and dies and is raised a new body, bearing it's own seed.
Jesus said, when explaining the "good ground/bad ground parable", ("the seed is the word of God")
I am the vine, ye are the branches, and my Father is the "husbandman" (which being interpreted is farmer)
And you took my statement on the farmer parable and perverted it into something I never said nor intended
You said the word of God is planted in people.
After you said Christ is not in people but the Holy Spirit is.
When I challenged this statement you offered no explaination. So who or what is it? Can you answer?
You are not a literalist. You spiritualize everything. Which means you can prove nothing and want people to just accept the wisdom of your prophetic utterances.

I thought you to be a pretty good literalist, until I started challenging some things you claim. You've been scrambling and it's wearing you down.
You don't want to know the truth, you want the truth to be what you know.
You have engraved your own image of God through studying, and now you study to defend it, because it cannot defend itself.
Yep. Personal Revelation is the proper Forum for your statements.

John received a personal revelation on the Isle of Patmos,
Paul also was given personal revelation that he was not able to explain in detail,
I have never considered myself anywhere near either of them, until now.

Thanks Core Issue, take your time in answering the unasnwered questions, I'll list them for you so you won't forget.

[CoreIssue]

This Adam is seed nonsense as you are espousing it is not Biblical.

You have yet to offer a single verse supporting this declaration. Adam is never called seed anything.

So, the Apostle Paul, after writing 1 Cor. 15 would have been given his own person revelation column?
You accuse me of not answering questions, not using scriptures, I've flooded you with them and now you are running, scrambling, and trying to shut the jack ass up.
A seed goes into the ground and dies and is raised a new body, bearing it's own seed.
Jesus said, when explaining the "good ground/bad ground parable", ("the seed is the word of God")
I am the vine, ye are the branches, and my Father is the "husbandman" (which being interpreted is farmer)


You have been answered on your seed doctrine.

You abuse the definitions of rhema and logos. You have declared them variants of the same word when I have shown you they are from different root words.

You have dumped parts of the definition of logos because you don't like it and declared they were not in the definition to begin with. And when I post proofs they are parts of the definition used for centuries before you continue to pretend they are not.

Then you leap off to your own interpretation based on these abuses and we are suppose to take them seriously. As if you have actually proven something.

You don't get it. Claimed personal revelations to you are believed by you. But not by us. And when we ask for proof you quote your revelation and so on as if it is on par with the revelations of the Prophets, Apostles and Christ, who did not give PERSONAL revelation.

I refuted your past tense claims on logos THREE times in depth and more in statement and you keep demanding it is past tense only and accusing me of not answering.

YOU prove your claims on your revised definitions of logos and rhema with evidence we can look at. Not edited quotes from Strong. Not claims based upon you. Actual examinable evidence.

THEN you will have provided something not already answered multiple times that bears examinantion.

And you took my statement on the farmer parable and perverted it into something I never said nor intended
You said the word of God is planted in people.
After you said Christ is not in people but the Holy Spirit is.
When I challenged this statement you offered no explaination. So who or what is it? Can you answer?


This simply proves you have not studied the Bible in fact and depth. No one who has would even ask this question.
John 14
15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him.
25"All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
John 16
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Christ left physically. But the Holy Spirit was sent to replace him and through the Holy Spirit we are connected to the Father and the Son as well as they are connected to us.
But they do not indwell us. The Holy Spirit does.
Acts 2
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 5
We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."
1 Corinthians 6

Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

Ephesians 1
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
I could go on posting more but that is enough to prove the point.
Christ returned to Heaven before and with the Father. The Holy Spirit is upon the earth in us.


You are not a literalist. You spiritualize everything. Which means you can prove nothing and want people to just accept the wisdom of your prophetic utterances.

I thought you to be a pretty good literalist, until I started challenging some things you claim. You've been scrambling and it's wearing you down.
You don't want to know the truth, you want the truth to be what you know.
You have engraved your own image of God through studying, and now you study to defend it, because it cannot defend itself.


Yes. We see you believe your personal revelations are superior. Don't agree with the Bible but superior.

Yep. Personal Revelation is the proper Forum for your statements.
John received a personal revelation on the Isle of Patmos,


No. John did not receive a personal revelation. John was appointed by Christ who was sent by the Father and annointed as his Apostle.
His revelations do not require a seer like you to be understood. He wrote in accord with the language of the day. He did not add anything to what was written in a verbal or other forms declaring additional understanding beyond what was in the Bible.

You do. You are not a prophet of God bearing additional revelation to shared with the world.

And the Adam seed nonsense as well as rejection of the Trinity of 3 personages is not only extra Biblical but contadicts what is in the Bible
Paul also was given personal revelation that he was not able to explain in detail,
I have never considered myself anywhere near either of them, until now.

Paul, as I and others have been given, received deeper understandings of the word of God. But unlike you none of those understandings contradicted the written word understood by the rules of grammar.
NO WHERE can you show Paul ever adding addtional thought or revelation beyond the written word as you do.
Thanks Core Issue, take your time in answering the unasnwered questions, I'll list them for you so you won't forget.

When are you actually going to offer some testable evidence to back your claims?
Your declaratons mean nothing. They are but the foundationaless thoughts of your mind.

As for 1 Cor 15 you are just reaching more of this seed nonsense of yours. That foundation has already been rejected and you have offered nothing to prove it.

Before trying to expand that doctrine you first need to prove your foundation.

[CoreIssue]

Hi Core! Did you miss me?


1. 1 Cor. 15 is the very best scripture in the bible that gives my claim merrit, I finally use it and you refuse to address it. Am I suppose to overlook this whole chapter and just say, " Okay Core, you must be right so I won't continue to search this out any further, please forgive me"?


2. I have to back down from my "Logos" claim, and so I do, but how can I back down from, his word is his seed, until/unless we have covered 1 Cor.15)? This chapter is perhaps the best chapter ever written concerning this matter, I think it deserves a look.

3. Another verse showing Christ (the word) as seed:
Gal. 3:16) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

[CoreIssue]

1. How do you answer all the scriptures of Paul saying, "Christ in you"?i.e:

It is explained with very basic biblical discernment. Jesus said, "I and my Father are one (John 10:30)."
Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are one, but distinctly unique individuals. Therefore, if you have accepted Christ, and believe on Him, you have the Spirit of the Father in you...the Holy Spirit.

[CoreIssue]

What Chrystal said it the fact of the matter.

We literally have the Holy Spirit in us. We have the Father and Son in us via the Holy Spirit and his union with them.

When it says such as we have the mind of Christ it does not mean we literally have Christ's mind in us. It means we have become closely like in him in his humanity in how the thinks. But again, he is not literally in us.

Same with his word. Indeed his word enters our minds and is planted. But that does not mean Christ is planted within us literally.

Rhema in us is not Logos in us.

I will do a more extensive reply on 1 Cor 15 in another post.

[CoreIssue]

3. Another verse showing Christ (the word) as seed:
Gal. 3:16) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


Seed here means descendent. Physical lineage. As in reproduction.
Different context so different meaning.

It does not define seed as meaning word.

[CoreIssue]

1. How do you answer all the scriptures of Paul saying, "Christ in you"?i.e:

It is explained with very basic biblical discernment. Jesus said, "I and my Father are one (John 10:30)."
Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are one, but distinctly unique individuals. Therefore, if you have accepted Christ, and believe on Him, you have the Spirit of the Father in you...the Holy Spirit.


Chrystal I wrote this and then editted it because Core had answered this challenge, sorry, I ahd forgotten where I left off. However I liked your answer, it makes sense.

How about 1 Cor. 15? It really seems to go into great depth explaining the seed going into the ground and being raised a new body.

And Gal. 3:16) seems to declare Christ as the "seed", have you considered the meaning of that verse?

[CoreIssue]

And Gal. 3:16) seems to declare Christ as the "seed", have you considered the meaning of that verse?

Ah, yes, I love that verse. Christ is the seed of Abraham...what a treasure. It would truly be an honor to be in the direct lineage and bloodline of Messiah. The promises were made to Abraham, as well as his seed (singular), Christ.

[CoreIssue]

1 Corinthians 15

The Resurrection of Christ

1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=i%20cor%2015&version=31#fen-NIV-28706a)]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter,[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=i%20cor%2015&version=31#fen-NIV-28708b)] and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

This sets context. That being the preaching of the words of the Gospel. Not the Logos (Word). The Gospel being the death, burial and resurrection of Christ followed by his appoiinting of the Apostles to establish the Church.

This has nothing to do with Logos as Word but rhema as words of the Gospel. Nor does it say Christ dwells within us literally.
9For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.
12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.
Our resurrection for death depends on Christ's resurrection from death. And that life is bestowed upon us via the Baptism of the Holy Spirit when he indwells us.
We enter the Body of Christ via the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

And Christ stated for the Holy Spirit to come to us in this new way he had to leave the earth.
20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
And as Christ was raised from the dead by the Holy Spirit via the command of the Father so are we in spirit now and in flesh later.
At the Rapture the Father sends the Son. The Son cannot come of his own accord.
23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
And as stated the Father gives to the Son those that are his. The Son does not simply take them himself.
When the New Earth and New Jerusalem are set supremecy will be with the Father as God, not as the Son as God. But together with the Holy Spirit the Father, Holy Spirit and Spirit of the Son are God and supreme. The flesh of Christ is man and will be our king forever.
25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he "has put everything under his feet."[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=i%20cor%2015&version=31#fen-NIV-28730c)]
Only Christ, the man, can conquer sin, death, Hell and so on. So Christ as god and man is on the forefront of these things. But even then subject to the Father and what is done on the earth with the saints must be done via the Holy Spirit.
Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
All is subject to Christ who is subject to God. But since God includes the spirit of Christ the flesh of Christ is subect to his own spirit as well and God as a whole.
28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
When Christ's mission is fulfilled and their is no more sin to conquer all rulership will reside with God. But Christ via his spirit will be part of that rulership since he sits with the Father on the Throne now as God but also will stand before the Throne as High Priest and man.
A duality of reality beyond our scope of understanding in totality.
29Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31I die every day—I mean that, brothers—just as surely as I glory over you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus for merely human reasons, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,
"Let us eat and drink,
for tomorrow we die."[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=i%20cor%2015&version=31#fen-NIV-28735d)]
In standing for Christ we either stand for truth that surpasses this world or we are fools that should get the most out of life because when we die we are doomed.
33Do not be misled: "Bad company corrupts good character." 34Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.
Those who slip from the truth of the Gospel and God's teachings corrupt themselves.
35But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body.
A seed is a shell containing nutrients containing an embryo. When the seed (our body) is in the ground (death) moisture and such begin breaking down the shell (our body). This reacts with the nutrients forming a matrix for the embryo (our spiritual condition). The embryo (spirit) feeds on this mixture and if the mixture and emybryo are healthy, they grow and form a plant much more complex and complete than the seed. If not, they die and decay.

But all the plant will be is contained within the embryo.

If the nutrients of the seed are the love of God, repentence and such, then the Holy Spirit is part of the embryo which dictates the form the new body will derive from the nutrients.

If no Holy Spirit, the body formed will be the body lost, which will dwell in the Lake for Eternity.

If the Holy Spirit is there, the body formed will be purged of all the sin nature and mortality forming a new body as sinless and immortal as the body of Christ. But done so via the Holy Spirit.

Bottom line is Christ is in us via the Holy Spirit, not literally in us since the literal Christ is a human with a body. They Holy Spirit conforms us to Christ (Romans 8 so we in our eternal flesh will be in a relationship of brotherhood to Christ and sonship to God.

So as our parents contribute to our physical makeup Christ contributes to our spiritual makeup. But in both cases neither are literally within us. As in their literal minds, spirits and existence is not within us but their characteristics, influences and such are.

But the Holy Spirit is literally within us making these other issues a reality in our lives.
39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another.
Human flesh contains reason, a living spirit and other attributes making us the image of God. Animal life does not.
40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

The purposes of what was put on the earth is different from what was put in the stars.

The purpose of the earth will continue for eternity. And, as like our flesh, will be in a new and eternal form.

The purposes of the stars will not continue for eternity.
42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
Our bodies enter death in a sin tainted form that was mortal. It will be raised pefect and Christlike, immortal.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
The natural based body will die. The spiritual based body will live forever.
45So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=i%20cor%2015&version=31#fen-NIV-28748e)]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.
The natural body is subject to the flesh. The spiritual body to the spirit.
47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.
Natural bodies come from the earth. Spiritual bodies from God.
48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
Those who hold to the earthly will keep corrupt bodies in the Lake. Those who hold to the Heavely will gain pure Heavenly flesh bodies.
49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=i%20cor%2015&version=31#fen-NIV-28752f)] bear the likeness of the man from heaven.
As seed we come from our mothers with earth bodies. As seed will will in eternity have heavenly bodies like Christ.
50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
All will resurrect and enter eternity either earthly or heavenly.
51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."[g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=i%20cor%2015&version=31#fen-NIV-28757g)]
55"Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?"[h (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=i%20cor%2015&version=31#fen-NIV-28758h)] 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Those who raise to spiritual bodies will never taste death, aging or any such thing again.
58Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

We must choose what the nutrients around the embryo will be. We must choose what programming will be in the embryo.

Will it be our earthly lusts and such? Or will it be the transforming of the Holy Spirit who will guide us in forming the nutrients around our spirits?

No. Christ is not planted literally in us. His words and the nature of his humanity are planted in us via the Holy Spirit.

[CoreIssue]

That is the best explaination of that passage I have ever seen. I will print that out and give it a studing over!

Thanks Core.

[CoreIssue]

(NLT
1 Corinthians Ch 15: 20-23)
20 But in fact, Christ has been raised from the
dead. He is the first of a great harvest of all who have died.
21 So you see, just as death came into the world through a man (Adam), now
the resurrection from the dead has begun through another man (Christ)
22 Just as everyone dies because we all belong to Adam, everyone
who belongs to Christ will be given new life.
23 But there is an order to this resurrection: Christ was raised as the
first of the harvest; then all who belong to Christ will be raised when he comes

[CoreIssue]

That is the best explaination of that passage I have ever seen. I will print that out and give it a studing over!
Thanks Core.
Thanks. I was afraid it would be seen as too rambling.

[CoreIssue]

That is the best explaination of that
passage I have ever seen. I will print that out and give it a studing
over!
Thanks Core.
Thanks. I was afraid it would be seen as too rambling.

I just want to say that the last post Core made in reguard to 1Cor. Ch 15 encourages me.
I have seldom found words from someone that has said yes and amen to my
heart as much as that response did.

Vagabond, I encourage you to examine what you think in light of what has been posted here.

I think you, as well as anyone here wants the truth and not our own will.
You are important to God, and valuable to us.

Your thoughts are not disregarded but weighed against the Word of God and our own conscience.
We will all give an account, we don’t say that lightly.


You are appreciated here and respected.

Arthur, TLIR

[CoreIssue]

Thanks for the response Core, I have a couple of questions on it:

42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

Our bodies enter death in a sin tainted form that was mortal. It will be raised pefect and Christlike, immortal.


How does Jesus Christ fit in this?
Did he have a mortal body and then raised an immortal one?
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
So, we have both a natural and a spiritual body, was this the same case as Jesus Christ?
45So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=i%20cor%2015&version=31#fen-NIV-28748e)]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.
The natural body is subject to the flesh. The spiritual body to the spirit.


Is this still talking about one being with two bodies? i.e. I had a natural body first and now a spiritual body?
47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.
Natural bodies come from the earth. Spiritual bodies from God.


This sounds like it may still be talking about a person who was first born of the earth, and then born again given a spiritual body, is that possible?

48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
Those who hold to the earthly will keep corrupt bodies in the Lake. Those who hold to the Heavely will gain pure Heavenly flesh bodies.

This sounds as if I may be on track, if I remain "mindful" of my earthy body and it's desires, then I remain with it and suffer it's consequences. Yet if I become mindful of the spiritual man (body) then I will inherit the kingdom (so to speak).
49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=i%20cor%2015&version=31#fen-NIV-28752f)] bear the likeness of the man from heaven.
As seed we come from our mothers with earth bodies. As seed will will in eternity have heavenly bodies like Christ.

So, am I correct in thinking that: this chapter is dealing mainly with those who are born of the natural, but will someday (if they are faithful) gain the spiritual?

And, was the body (natural one) of Jesus Christ first of Mary his natural mother?

[CoreIssue]

Vagabond, I encourage you to examine what you think in light of what has been posted here.

I think you, as well as anyone here wants the truth and not our own will.
You are important to God, and valuable to us.

Your thoughts are not disregarded but weighed against the Word of God and our own conscience.
We will all give an account, we don’t say that lightly.


You are appreciated here and respected.

Arthur, TLIR
Thanks a bunch TLIR, I sincerly appreciate the guidance and kind words.

[CoreIssue]

Sorry for the sloppy looking reply here. I cannot quite figure out how you formatted the reply so I had to improvise to respond.
[quote="vagabond"]
Thanks for the response Core, I have a couple of questions on it:
You ae very welcome.

Quote:
Quote:42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

Our bodies enter death in a sin tainted form that was mortal. It will be raised pefect and Christlike, immortal.



How does Jesus Christ fit in this?

We enter the grave with Christ in our sin tainted natures. He took the sin from us in his death. And we raise with him sinless and are glorifed.

Did he have a mortal body and then raised an immortal one?

Yes.

Quote:The natural based body will die. The spiritual based body will live forever.


So, we have both a natural and a spiritual body, was this the same case as Jesus Christ?

The spirit of Christ is God. The flesh of Christ ia human. God has no flesh but a spititual body. The spirit indwells and resides in the flesh. Together they form one being with one mind. Just as our spirit and flesh combine in one mind to make one being.

Quote:The natural body is subject to the flesh. The spiritual body to the spirit.

Is this still talking about one being with two bodies? i.e. I had a natural body first and now a spiritual body?

Not exactly. You have always had a natural and a spiritual existence. The issue is which is in control.

In the fully sin tainted state the flesh rules over the spirit in the mind because the spirit and flesh ae in harmony.. In the born-again spirit state the flesh is still powerful but now the spirit rules more over the mind than the flesh. Now the spirit and the flesh are at complete odds and thus the war of the old and new natures.

At the resurrection the flesh is purfied and brought into harmony with the spirit. So then the spirit rules over the mind because there is harmony.

Quote:Quote:47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.
Natural bodies come from the earth. Spiritual bodies from God.


This sounds like it may still be talking about a person who was first born of the earth, and then born again given a spiritual body, is that possible?
Again, this is an issue played out over time. Flesh/spirit in sin harmony, thus the earth body rules. Then Flesh still sinful but spirit born-again. Combat. Finally Spirit/flesh in eternal harmony, thus the spirit rules.
We are made to have both a flesh and spirit existence. But the nature of our total being changes from earth (desires of the flesh) oriented to heavenly (God and spirit oriented).
Quote:
48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
Those who hold to the earthly will keep corrupt bodies in the Lake. Those who hold to the Heavely will gain pure Heavenly flesh bodies.

This sounds as if I may be on track, if I remain "mindful" of my earthy body and it's desires, then I remain with it and suffer it's consequences. Yet if I become mindful of the spiritual man (body) then I will inherit the kingdom (so to speak).

Roughly speaking, yes. But being mindful is not enough. We must seek the grace of God through repentence in Christ via his death, burial and resurrection.

We cannot begin to possibly understand being a proper spiritual person without the sacrfice of Christ that allows the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to purge our spirits of sin natures and bring us into a relationship with Christ.

Then and only then can be begin to be mindful of our spiritual self.

Quote:As seed we come from our mothers with earth bodies. As seed will will in eternity have heavenly bodies like Christ.

So, am I correct in thinking that: this chapter is dealing mainly with those who are born of the natural, but will someday (if they are faithful) gain the spiritual?

We immediately gain the spiritual in our spirits via the Holy Spirit upon repentence in faith by grace. Then we spend a life of sanctification working to be more Christ like. But that we cannot succeed in that until our minds are finally cleansed of the sin tainted input of our earthly flesh by that earthly flesh being changed into glorified sinless eternal flesh.

In all of this we are dependent upon the work of Christ on our behalf. And that work is then made real in us via the Holy Spirit by the command of the Father.

And, was the body (natural one) of Jesus Christ first of Mary his natural mother?

His natural body was genetically from Mary. But it lacked the sin taint that comes via the male side since the Father via the Holy Spirit created the male side.

In setting aside his divine rights as God in his spirit Christ truly lived as a human, except for not having a sin tainted nature.

But as Adam he was capable of sinning and falling as Adam did. He simply did not do so.

[CoreIssue]

42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
Our bodies enter death in a sin tainted form that was mortal. It will be raised pefect and Christlike, immortal.

Our bodies die the death everyone dies but we who believe in Christ and received him, are already considered forgiven, perfected and resurrected.

vagabond wrote:


How does Jesus Christ fit in this?
Did he have a mortal body and then raised an immortal one?
Quote:
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

The natural based body will die. The spiritual based body will live forever.

He did have a body like ours (in that it was subject to death) but he was with out sin.
He died with a mortal body! (Like ours) He was raised with an immortal body. (Like the one we will have.)

So, we have both a natural and a spiritual body, was this the same case as Jesus Christ?
Quote:
45So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=i%20cor%2015&version=31#fen-NIV-28748e)]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.

The natural body is subject to the flesh. The spiritual body to the spirit.


We have a natural body now! We will have a spiritual resurrected body then! Even though you may be right in a sense that we are spirits and there is a spiritual body that we will enjoy when we leave the temple of this body to be with the Lord.
Is this still talking about one being with two bodies? i.e. I had a natural body first and now a spiritual body?
Well, not that we have two bodies.
Hear this now!
When we leave this body, we have a spirit body that knows no loss.
At the resurrection we are united with a body that is sown in corruption but raised in incorruption. An incorruptible body just as he has.
47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.

Natural bodies come from the earth. Spiritual bodies from God.

Natural bodies and spiritual bodies; both come from God. What is referred to, as natural bodies, are people who are part of the fallen nature! The spiritual body is that which is eternal and has received Christ the eternal life from God.
This sounds like it may still be talking about a person who was first born of the earth, and then born again given a spiritual body, is that possible?
48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.

Those who hold to the earthly will keep corrupt bodies in the Lake. Those who hold to the Heavely will gain pure Heavenly flesh bodies.

This sounds as if I may be on track, if I remain "mindful" of my earthy body and it's desires, then I remain with it and suffer it's consequences. Yet if I become mindful of the spiritual man (body) then I will inherit the kingdom (so to speak).
49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=i%20cor%2015&version=31#fen-NIV-28752f)] bear the likeness of the man from heaven.

Well it doesn’t require you to be mindful of anything so much as, what Christ did for us all.
It doesn’t matter so much, what you do; but more in whom you have faith in!
As seed we come from our mothers with earth bodies. As seed will will in eternity have heavenly bodies like Christ.

So, am I correct in thinking that: this chapter is dealing mainly with those who are born of the natural, but will someday (if they are faithful) gain the spiritual?


Well, more like those who are spiritual, living in the natural, reaching toward the eternal.
And, was the body (natural one) of Jesus Christ first of Mary his natural mother?
It was first spiritual, then natural, then resurrected.

[CoreIssue]

We will have a spiritual resurrected body then!

Be careful here not to confuse people.

We are both flesh and spirit now. We will be both flesh and spirit in eternity. Christ is and was both spirit and flesh.

The difference is that in eterntiy both flesh and spirit move from death to life, as in being made sin free and perfect.

The bodies of angels and God are not the bodies we will have in eternity. They do not have flesh. But we will.

Not trying to argue, just trying to keep it chrystal clear.

We don't loose our flesh. It is changed.

[CoreIssue]

vagabond,

This passage may help clarify the condition we will be in when glorified.

Note what is not present here in glorifed bodies. Blood. Mortal life resides in the blood.
Luke 24:36-40
Jesus Appears to the Disciples

36While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you."
37They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." 40When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet.


We are told flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Mortal life is in the blood.
Christ shed his blood (life) for us on the cross. Then offered it up to the Father.

We shall be given bodies like Christ. Thus no blood.

So, earthly flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. But the promised glorified flesh can.

[CoreIssue]

I thank both of you for your time and responses.

[CoreIssue]

I thank both of you for your time and responses.




Hey Vag,



Merry Christmas to and yours!



All my love in Christ,



Arthur, TLIR